Transcripts For CSPAN3 Archaeology Of The Trujillo Homesteads In Colorado 20170909

Week learn about a National Historic landmark in colorado. She talks about the fighting on the property. Friends of the acm cohosted this event. It is about one hour and 45 minutes. I would like to introduce our speaker for tonight. Her name is marilyn. She is in it alamosa native. And ownerrchaeologist of a consultancy firm. She has over 40 years and experience and Cultural Research management and a degree and anthropology from a outofstate university. She has a masters degree from Colorado State university. Conducted thely alsoeological research but Archaeological Research on great standins for several decades. Interests include culturally modified trees, trailology, old spanish historic, and artifacts called livio phones. The instrument made of rock. As a added bonus to tonights performance she will discuss with the phones sound. If you notice in the back we are being recorded by cspan three for their historic weekend program. Ask thatime we would you turn all cell phones off. At present marilyn. [applause] this is the story of the settling of the american frontier. It is not the usual story that you think of where people were heading west from the eastern united states. Another important story of toinos moving northward settle American Land after the end of the mexican war in 1848. To help give you a brief geographical orientation. On this map you can see where the homesteads are. There is great standin National Park. Most of you know where that is. It is just to the west of the park. Also put forth garland on there to give you a sense of tore we are in relation where they had their homestead. As many of you already know fort sachusetts was established i dont know if i have the right date 1852. I get some of this off of the internet. It in 1858. Replaced ok. We know that the fort benefited the economy of early hispanic settlers. It created a local market for cattle and grain and flour and produce. The hispanic farmers were also paid in u. S. Currency making it possible for them to more easily purchase American Goods. Also eventually able to get credit. One of the board was born in the parts of mexico. He is shown here on the right with his grandson. In this 1900 photo. We ahead by photographs of them. Once we have reported fresh. One moved south from town in 1864. At that time most early hispanics that were settling in the southern part of the valley words settling on Communal Land that they used for farming. There living on land grants. They were not living on public land. Property in a small the southern valley. He lived there for about one year. He married a woman. In 1865 together they established a small ranch northwest of the four. That was the same year they moved further northwest. It was a a know very. No one else was there. Was soolated settling unlike the plazas where people were living together. There were forced to be thrice selfreliant. We assume they had to form some kind of relationship with the native americans. Apaches who were still using the area at the same time. Their son talked about hiding in the plants when the native americans would, to help. This was really a risky endeavor for them. They were out there by and yet they became very successful ranchers. Pedro was born the next year. Generationhe first of american boys in the family. He filed his first legal land claim and 1878. He also applied for a Homestead Entry an agent you want. Orn though he did not write speak english. He was very smart about this. Wife according to the local newspaper it was the nicest french alps in the valley. It even reportedly had stainedglass windows. That is pretty impressive considering it is way out. We have noty historic areas of that house. Everything that we know or are learning it is either from Historic Records or from the fbi. That is why archaeology is so important. It out raising cattle. Later he became one of the areas largest seat razors. Is that he had several hundred bales of hay. Even by early may he was producing a lot. Early on we think that he may have been selling much of his stock in produce two for garland. It makes sense because this would have been the place where you could sell your produce. Maybe later of a look to the Court Records we may be able to find where it actually has his name somehow that actually shows he was selling things here. It really makes sense because there was no are else. He was assigned that early on. Have used ased to many as 16 horses to haul wagons across the sand to his customers. If any of you have tried to drive in a car across the sand you know how difficult that is. Imagine driving your wagon that across the sand. He is 15 horses. This is a description i really liked. They described him going across the sand with his low pay. In the middle a large bird swooped down. Somebody wrote that down. He mustve been pretty impressive to see him with all of the animals moving across the sand. Next he was the only one to survive from the delta. He had five sisters but they all died as children due to dip their area or typhoid fever. 1983 he file on his own homestead about three quarters of a mile closer to his parents. He was only 17 at the time. Shows we are looking at a time with that. In 1885 pater decided he would raise the following cattle and horses and sheep like his father. He argued that sheep would cause him trouble. That this was cattle country. That sheep country. Having trouble myself i can see your kids in the agency do what you did. Definitely by 1885 he recorded that he had built a over room house, is stable time he added more land to his buildings. He then obtained over 500 acres. Instead of building a mud families hee other chose to build this twostory log house. Which was much more similar to a close eye did anglos style buildings. I thought this was very interesting because he definitely wanted it to be seen. That is very interesting and it may also have something to do with him trying to break away from his fathers views. Pedro and sophia and father and mother became very successful in expanding their land tonys land owning. Many early hispanics settled in the area where squatters. They were of actually removed by those who obtained a legal land title. That is why they were so successful. Legal landly got right with the property. In early 1902 after they had n there for new elite for for decades. Conflict interrupted between cattle, and sheep ranchers in the area. Andearly hispanics ranchers farmers who raised sheep began to experience that intimidation. Descendent noted, in the the war was not just between sheep and cattle but between persons of different cultural background. First someone burned a bar down. On his property. Then on january 25, 1902 90 of his sheep were killed and others were wounded and driven away. Just prior to that someone reportedly fired a shot into the warehouse. They live in fear. The family was worried. They were out there by themselves. In theht while she was isolated house alone with one of her children sophia heard unknown man right to the area. She told the story that she was so frightened that she and her child were taken outside. They after he spent the night because they were afraid to be in the house. On february 2, 1902, teofilos house was burned to the ground with its entire contents and the family the cattlemen in the area. Had lost money in a bank failure in earlier years, so he kept all his cash at home like a lot of early settlers did. When the house burned down he reportedly had 8,000 in there and it burned up. In march of 1902, teofilo and pedro sold their land and water rights for 30,000 to the cattle ranchers. That was quite a bit of money back then in 1902. They were forced to leave when they had legal title to their property. Teofilo moved to the town of san he left his homestead and he died there in 1915. Pedro moved to the sergeant area and died in 1934. Pedro raised cattle and horses and not cheap like his father, his descendents believed he left with his father because of all the violence and intimidation. They were worried. They were scared. When somebody burns your house down, you do not want to be there anymore. They did not have any recourse at the time. Ramifications of this ranch more violence do not and did not end when the chat euro when the trujillos sold out. On the ranch and owned it from 1912 to 1947. How thethe story about violence and intimidation had longrange effects on people. This is what he told me. The 1930s, almost three decades after the trujillo were burned out, when bob was a boy living on the mend a ranch, hes to go he used to go to uber to get supplies. They would always stop by the pedro place. He would stop and see if he needed supplies from town. Bob said he did this many times where they would stop by and see what he needed, go to town, pick up the supplies. Bob said later he was reminiscing with his uncle about these trips they made to town and his uncle was talking about his wife. He said he never saw her, even though they had been there many times. His uncle said the reason you did not see her is that she was so traumatized by the violence during the period of the cattle and sheep wars that even 30 years later when she sought dust the when she saw dust in distance, she would run upstairs and hide because she was still so scared. Howink it is interesting these events do not just happen and then end. And stories get passed on it is a big deal for people even in the future. The pedro house was considered isolated even by the 1940s. Ranch hands and their families did not want to live there. Far away and was eventually abandoned in the 1940s. I have thought a lot about these feelings of isolation, living at these early homesteads and i often wondered what it would be like to live there during the early days of the trujillo occupation, especially as a woman, thinking you are often out there by yourself. Wererst the trujillos likely concerned about native americans who were still out in then later on during the cattle and sheep conflicts they were concerned about the violence that occurred then. Ill was thought it would be interesting to go out there and work at one of these sites by myself as an archaeologist to try to get a sense of what that isolation may have felt like. Car, butut there in my being out there by yourself is an interesting experience. I got that chance in 2011. I was out there working at the teofilo place, i was by myself, and all the sudden i saw this dust. Likeught that is just these people had experienced. I thought he was coming out here . Im here by myself, and i felt vulnerable, even a few years ago, being out there. Luckily, this story is a great , who is ind bunch the back there was driving, not too fast. He was driving out there and all the dust was coming from fred. I did not have anything to worry about. He helped me. Of whative me a sense the isolation might have been like during those early years. How did we learn what happened at these homesteads . One of them was burned down, one just have these old buildings. How did we learn about the history and the family and how they lived . In 2002 we got a state Historical Fund grant through the Nature Conservancy to do culinary work at the pedro to do preliminary work at the pedro place. We researched the site, we evaluated it, we plotted the artifacts and documented what was around the house. Historic structures assessment done for this building. It was a little crooked. It had some problems. We wanted to know what needed to be done to stabilize this building. Tom in 2004, lorraine and simmons were able to nominate and get listed this homestead site on the National Register of historic places, which was exciting. It is considered important because of its relationship to the development of ranching in the San Luis Valley. It is a two story log house which is not very common. Valleyf you are from the , and you do not usually see two story log structures. It was important for its archaeological component, which are what help us tell the story about what happened here. Are there any people in this photo in the room . Thereght recognize dolly, are several other folks who are very active in volunteering in the community. Loretta . Yes. She is in there. Thank you for helping us do that. Do you have a hat on . Yes. The archaeological remains at the pedro site date from the late 1870s, that is when pedro built his place there, to the 1940s when the ranch hands abandoned it. Some of the interesting artifacts, we found a lot of ranch related limit which you would expect. We found a mule shoe. Both families had mules and use them in the ranch work. Bottle andniature dog onher a goat or a it. We do not know if it was a toy or medicinal. We found a lot of everyday items. These everyday items are some of the most important things. They tell us how people lived. Where they got their goods. What they used every day, like the marbles. I always like the toys. , likeakes it seem alive real people were living there, and of course the spoon. I found one of my spoons outside in the sandbox and i do not know how the spoon got out there, what you never know. But kit took it out and that was the end of it. Took it out and that was the end of it. A the upper left, you can see flaked glass tool. Many early sites exhibit flaked glass tools. They were made from a piece of broken glass. The yellow arrow shows were they flaked it so it would be sharp. It makes sense that you would use broken glass as a tool. It was free, it was handy, it may just be in your trash dump, and it was sharp. If you cannot run to the , we are allre spoiled and we just go to the store, you can find something and make a tool out of it. We found this at the site and i will show you what we found that the earlier homestead. We also found brownstone artifacts brownstone groundstone artifacts. The stone on the bottom is is how they would ground corn and all kinds of things. Archaeologists find these things, we say this is a multi component site, in other words we would say there were people ande in historic periods probably native americans. Sites weearly hispano the tools toy used process their food. What is interesting about these, right, and on the the bigger one is on the left. We found a number of these just outside the back door, which is where the kitchen was, of the house. That theynse to us were using those artifacts there. The family told us they remembered some of the older folks remembered seeing sofia grinding corn with a mono matate. Ano and a on theer thing we found right is native american pottery. If youre on a site and you find native american pottery, normally you think this is a native american site. This particular type of part a one is called san juan red tan. We found a close to the house. It was between the house and the corral. This pottery was produced in the san juan pablo in new mexico between 1750 and 1925. Evidence suggests that the native americans in new mexico were making pottery like this one specifically to trade with hispanos in northern new mexico. We know the trujillos came from area, so it is likely they brought these with them when they settled. May be sandstone. He asked what kind of sand it is. Im not sure specifically, but a lot of times they are made of sand down. It is easy to shape and easy to find. When we first worked at the later pedro site in 2002, we did not know where the earlier homestead from teofilo was located. , c cannotned down drive out and find it. We were lucky we cannot drive out and find it. Bob is standing on top of the remember whento he was a kid he remembered seeing a burned adobe. ,e were following him around you can see us in our vehicles, and he remembered where he saw that and took us to the site, which was fantastic. , a lotre in the valley of things look the same on the floor of the valley. He had a great memory and we appreciate that. The lower photo on the right shows what the teofilo site looked like when we first got there. There was no structure, there were a lot of rocks, and when we looked carefully we found a lot of artifacts, too. We do not have the actual structures, we do not have the corral, we do not have the barn, we do not have a house. We have the artifacts, and those artifacts are what tell us the story. In 2006 we got another state Historical Fund archaeological grant. We are grateful that exists so we can do a lot of this work. Site ando the teofilo weorded all the artifacts, conducted archival research, we looked in the Historic Records to see what we could find about what they had their according to the historical documents, and we reported the site with a lot of help from volunteers. There are a lot of things out there. We made maps and i will show you what the map looks like, we also evaluated the site as eligible for the National Register. This is what the map looks like that we made of the teofilo place. Feature one is the burned adobe remains that we think is their house. Postso found 21 upright that were buried in the ground, i will show you a picture of that, and we found many concentrations around that. A few lived in a place for a long time, you end up leaving things around your dwelling. That is what we found out there is what the trujillos had left behind for all those years of living in that homestead. Scale . This is 10 meters. I will talk about how big the structure was, so you can get an idea. The scale at the bottom is 10 meters long. Found 2000 stone cobbles. They were everywhere. That was one of our mysteries. I will talk about that in a little bit. The remains of that large adobe structure was the house of teofilo that burnt down in 1902. In shape andgular pretty big for an adobe structure, about 62 feet long and 55 feet wide. ,he evidence of the structure you can see here. Who is ang, archaeologist for the fish and wildlife service. She is showing you what the adobe sediments look like where the house used to be. Sand dunes,y great most of the sediments are sand. Here we had a giant concentration of adobe. That was different than the surrounding area. Bricks, youd adobe can see where the straw was in the adobe, we found adobe plaster fragments that could have been inside or outside of the structure. Know, wastrying to this the actual structure that found a globs of melted glass. If you melt glass, it has to be hot to melt glass. We are assuming they had windows or other glass items they had in the house. You can see these were totally melted down into a glob. We know this was a hot fire. According to the family, the story they heard was kerosene soaked rags were thrown through andwindows and were lit that is why the fire burned so hot. They did not just use a match or something. If you use kerosene soaked racks, that is going to make a hot fire. The 21 upright diameter posts, those are the red circles. We do not know what those were, we think they could have been something similar to what we found at the pedro place, a stable or a barn, maybe something he kept young animals in at certain times or for storage, we are not sure. We found these upright posts, they are made of juniper, you can see examples at the bottom. They are in good shape. I think that is why they chose juniper, because juniper is awesome. It can last a long time. These were stuck in the ground and we were able to map where they were to make an outline. We found what looked like a wall that could have been making a courtyard around the house. Courtyards were common in early hispano structures. They would have a courtyard. You can see why you would have that. You can keep animals and children in and keep the weather out or keep unwanted animals from coming in to your house. What they had along there, they may have had a windbreak because that would have been nice, especially in the winter in the middle of nowhere. Let me take a quick look at that. That is the number of posts. We have those mapped in their. The other thing that was interesting, some of those cobbles were concentrated. You see the yellow arrow points to a concentration of rocks. The photo on the left shows what those rocks look like in reality. They are right next to some of the posts. To me it was a doorstep so you had a step as you walked in there. They put locks there they put rocks there. If you have ever walked in sand, asd does this all the time, you walk through an area and it is sandy you start sinking in. It would make sense they would want to have some cobbles to help them not sink into the sand. Trujillo sitehe all appeared to fit into their occupation. That is 1865 when they first arrived, to 1902 when the house burned down. What it means to us when we find artifacts that date to certain time periods, it helps us understand who was there when because thed artifacts do not date after that time. After that time pluto after that time pluto we do not have pulled cap dance. It was abandoned. To the ground, they may have just left everything and no one came back and lived after that. For archaeologists, that is incredible. Because ame capsule lot of times if you have sites, people keep coming and they either take things or they dig up things or they move things around. If you have Something Like this, where it is one occupation and then the people took off and left everything, that is fantastic or us because we can learn a lot. We do not get confused by the all the other things that were happening through time. House that pedro built in 1906. Marilyn that is where he left. I am confused about the discrepancies in the dates. Marilyn it could be from the records. Is my understanding that he was in seven mile plaza in 1881. Marilyn as far as we know he lived in his two story cabin until he sold it out. That was in 1902. That is what we have evidence for. That is based on the artifacts and on the historic documents. There is a lot of history over there, im his great great grandson. My understanding is he was established at the plaza ranch went intod he farming, he was not doing as much ranching at this site. The house that i still live in he built in 1906. Be great tot would try to look at that and learn about that and get concrete dates. Why i was wondering because i keep. Dates, they seem off. I keep hearing dates and they seem off. Marilyn what we have is based on our research. Sometimes the written record is not exactly right. We used that and the artifacts together, and that is how we come up with our information. Sometimes we have old newspapers that say who was doing what in a certain time. , in a certain time period, and we use that. We use a lot of data. Hat is interesting i would love to see that because it will be interesting to see what kind of house he built over there compared to what he had here. It is a two story brick house. He had a thing with two stories. Pedro a granddaughter of and my dad was born in 1900, and it was my understanding that he was born here. Marilyn that is what you been told . That is interesting. The differentall stories. That is how we put this together. If we can talk to people like you, we may hear this and something house or read Something Else, newspapers are great resources, but do we believe what is in the newspaper today . [laughter] try to keep that in mind even though we tend to look at historic newspapers as these are facts. People wrote things and often it was not people who actually lived there that wrote it. It was Something Else who wrote about it. That is why you have to be careful of your data and that as much data as you can from people like yourselves because then you can put it all together and help tell that story. It might still be confusing. That is why that is what we call science is we get to try to figure things out. Everything is not just black and white. To me, that is what makes it exciting, we have to investigate everything. Thank you for that. Artifacts at the place. At the trujillo it was amazing how many different types of dishware we found. Lots of little pieces, but youresting designs and when find delicate designs you figure it was probably the woman who was choosing those. There are different designs through time. They may have used the native american pottery early and when they had access later on with the railroad, or they could get goods from other places, they were able to get items like some of the ones you see their which came clear from england. It is fantastic to look at these artifacts and see the picture through time, how the family lived and how they changed through time also. Iron handles you can see there. Has anyone heard of a sad iron before . I get sad when i have to iron. [laughter] they had a removable handle, and that is what we found. Soy had a number of bases you put it your wood stove and it uphat up, you pick with your handle, you iron for a while, and then it cools off. You put that back on the stove and get another one that is hot. You can see an example of one on the bottom. We just found the handle. They also had the big heavy these were happy. If you have ever picked one up or seen one at an antique store, i am guessing the women had muscles. Jars,o found a few glass not a lot. Most of them were canning jars which suggest to us they were producing their own goods. This is interesting to me as a mom when i went out there and found these doll parts it was amazing to think. We know pedro was the only surviving child of teofilo. Five girls that live there on the site until they died. These toys could have been theirs. We do not know. They could have been sophia and pedros children. I am sure they came to visit their grandparents. I think it is interesting to find toys like this. Alive. S it come other types of artifacts we found, every day items, a piece ,f a stove, we found a washtub we found a square now, a mule shoel, another and unidentified metal straps that were used on their ranch, and i like this harmonica plate. Taken aave ever harmonica apart, that is what is in it. Plate of ad the base harmonica. Someone was out there playing the harmonica, which is neat. It was interesting. We only found three nails on the site. If you have ever gone to Historic Sites like a mining site, there are nails everywhere. This was interesting to me that we only found a couple square nails and one finishing nail that could have been in furniture. There are a couple reasons for this. Nails may have been hard to obtain. When they first went out there, i am guessing teofilo did not have a container of nails. When they first went out there, they were probably not using nails. Were also thinking they could have come back and retrieve some of the nails on the surface after the burn. Nails were important. Fatherand my husbands would get mails that were bent and reshape them. You did not throw nails away at that time. Idea, and then because this was an adobe ,tructure and also made of wood they did not necessarily have to have nails to build it. That may explain why we do not find all of the nails there. It is also interesting that we found very few can cans on the site that would have contained food. If you go to old historic mining camps, there is one not too far away from the judeo from the trujillo place. Hundreds huge piles of and hundreds of chance. They were eating everything out of cans. We only found a few cans at the trujillo place. That suggests to us that they were producing their own food and canning it. We Found Property and canning jars and no through the written record they had a big garden and were selling produce to places like the town of duncan. Peas and potatoes and grew tobacco. I did not know you could grow tobacco in the saintlouis luisy in the san valley. They probably do not want to eat the cant goods everyone else goods everyoneed else was eating in the 1800s. I imagine the food was not that great. If you have fresh produce, why would you buy that. You can have your own food that would be fresh. One of the interesting things we did find was right next to the was a kerosene cant. If you remember the story that somebody reportedly burned the house down using kerosene soaked racks. We do not want to say kerosene soaked rags. We do not want to say that is what this is, because we do not know. It is interesting to me that this was right next to the house. It could have been the arsonist who came on horseback and through the rags through the window and left the camp behind left the can behind. Place, wethe pedro found a number of artifacts that are normally thought of as native american. Manos andround stone matates. We found more than we found at the pedro place. When they first came to the site they were probably using those because they could not get other tools and things like that. Pedro, by the time he was there, they had access to a lot of American Goods from the railroad. Of ground stone, we found one that was interesting, the one where the arrow is pointing is a different type of ground stone than we usually find at great sand dunes. Ground stonet of at great sand dunes. A lot of it is sandstone. There are other rocks. This kind of rock is volcanic rock. In it thatle holes were bubbles in the volcanic material. Kind of rock is not found as commonly at great sand dunes. We are wondering if the family may have brought this from northern new mexico or even the southern end of the valley where there is more volcanic material like this. You can also see something black on it very a lot of people ask me what that is, i do not know. It looks like tar. I do not know what it is. Somebody may have been doing something with tar and left it on their mano. We also found native american ceramics at the earlier homestead site. We found two bowls, they were broken, of the san juan red on 10. On tan. Taosund shards from a jar. Shards were traded to hispanos in northern new mexico. Shardsikely that these were brought by the trujillos to the site. Shard. Er is an apache they were selling pottery to hispanos. It could be that trujillos bought bowls and brought them to the site when they moved there. You would want to have something. They do not have a store they could go by all of their kitchen utensils from. They probably brought as much as they could with them. We are assuming they used these pieces of pottery as long as they could until they broke. Like the pedro site, we found a nice glass scraper. You can see how somebody shaped the edge. That is not from a animal stepping on it or chopping it. Thatody chipped intentionally so they could use it as a scraper. We also found a stone arrow point on the earlier trujillo site. We know in Southeastern Colorado they have evidence that early hispanos often used bows and arrows. At that time they did not have money, they cannot access guns. They were expensive. Even if you got one, what about your ammunition . You shoot a few things and then where are you going to get more ammunition . Used of times the hispanos bows and arrows until the late there were avalley could probably find them from a prehistoric site or make them yourself. Was easier than trying to make ammunition for a gun. We are not sure if this stone arrow point was something the trujillos actually used at their site. It could have just been there when they got there because there are a lot of artifacts and that particular area from native americans. We have a story that pedro would go around when he was doing his work on the ranch that he would fill his pockets with stones with stone points. Perhaps he brought this act, his mom did not wanted in the laundry, so he dumped his pockets and there you go. We ended up with this in our collection. It is an interesting thing to think about because we know that hispanos used that Technology Late in time. One of the other things we learned as we were doing our research, it is interesting because most people ive talked to did not know this. Many wealthy has spano luis valleythe san had native american slaves. They are referred to as captives or servants. The 1870 census reported that navajofilo family had a slave. By 1880 the at a farm laborer who was probably native american. This type of slavery is not talked about. Beingked about blacks enslaved in other parts of the country, but the fact that there were slaves out here is something a lot of people do not know about. It is uncomfortable to talk about. During that norm time. During that time period. Nos wereand hispa capturing native americans, native americans were capturing other native americans, and they sold them to hispanos. It was a network of labor. They needed the labor just like the teofilo, they only had one child survive. All of the other ones died. How are you going to run your ranch with one person . In women needed help, too, the kitchen for example. To run the household. They needed herders. A lot of the native american slaves were herders and they were most often navajo. There may have been some apache as well. They even have this documented in the historic record. Byis pretty late, they said 1865 there were about 61 slaves in the county alone. That is where a large majority of the hispanos were living. Even though slavery was 1867, ad in 1863 and lot of the slaves that lived with the hispano families actually stayed there. Most of them wanted to stay there because they did not have a place to go. They stayed there. Families would often adopt them and baptize them. There were considered part of the family in most cases. I do not think they were treated unfairly or they would have run away. It probably wouldve been easy to run off. Trujillosknow why the did that. We know they needed the labor. They needed the help area as they became more successful. Became more successful, they had that discretionary money that they could purchase these captives, the slaves or servants. That is why they ended up having slaves. I have never heard within our family that there was anyone extra in the family. Marilyn we have heard different stories. Told stories she heard about the family adopting some native americans. Maybe some people have not heard it, maybe others have. That is what we have heard from her. Maybe other people were not told information is not there in our family conversations. Marilyn different families probably did different things. Some families probably needed to e the help, and may have it was not considered a negative thing at that time. It was not a bad thing. Beenthink they wouldve considered part of the family. I think we would have heard more about it. It would be an adjusting if we could talk more to family folks and hear those stories because i know one of the family members said they did not have them at first, because it is thebarrassed, way it was at that time. Later she told us yes, she had heard that very i do not know if that is the case. It is one of those things that happened and it is uncomfortable to talk about, but it is part of the history. Science showed the site shows that there were a lot of native americans around. It was more like indentured servitude. Everybody was helping everybody else survive in the middle of nowhere. It is more than likely that it is true. Thing, ita negative is just a way of life back then. It was more of an indentured servitude more than slavery. Marilyn everyone was doing it to everyone else, not that that were it right, but anglos purchasing slaves and would sell them. There are books written about it. It is interesting to read about that time. About that time period. It is something people do not think about what it is something that did occur in the San Luis Valley and i personally think it is part of history. We want to understand history and understand how things work back then. That is one of those stories. I have read two things, one is that the town slave market well after the civil war and as late as 1868. Recently there was a report of a family in new mexico who had an indian slave as rate as late as the 1930s. That,n i is not heard but i had heard in the valley until the 1880s. Some people decided that even though they were free, they would stay with their family. That is what they considered their family. It may have been a little different than the black slavery theyey were treated were living in the house with the family. It seems they were treated more like family. That is my feeling after reading some of this material. Back to the cobble mystery. We found and counted more than 2000 cobbles on the teofilo site. They were disturbed from their original location because there were bison out there that were using the tank. If you ever see what bison do, they are heavy. I saw them when we were on this particular site, we were woulding the site, we mark where things were and the bison would, at night and come to the stock tank and it creates issues with the surface of the ground. That is why some of these look like Somebody Just threw them out there. We thought they were probably , maybe a courtyard to make a nice work area for the family. We know all of these cobbles were brought in from quite a ways away, like 10 miles. They wouldve had to have hold would have had to have ha uled these. It mustve been important to have brought these here. I think it was probably the wife. I would have said go get those. Idea. As our we think we proved it or have pretty good evidence. Bunch andn 2015, fred carpenter and his son to the sites. He had worked on the ranch in the 1960s. We wanted to secure his stories about what he knew about the particular site and the use of the ranch. Ranch was jobs on the to use a caterpillar around the tanks and push the soil up around it so the cows could access the water easier. He is standing in the spot where he said he went out to get a scoop of sand with his equipment , and he said at the time there were not any cobbles visible. It had been covered with sand. He went out there, took a scoop and looked back and said he could see what looked like a cobble walkway. Smaller cobbles with larger cobbles on the edge. He thought this might be he didys old house, so not want to disturb it anymore. Helpedcision he made save this site, otherwise he could have scooped up part of the house or who knows what. I want to say thank you to tad for helping to save the site and helping to explain why all of these cobbles were out there. We are assuming they had walkways around to the different site features and probably had a courtyard with cobbles in it. Are you going to go out there, fred, to that site . If you go on the tour, you will get to see what this looks like. What is been happening in the last 15 years since we first went out there and saw this house and started working out there, in 2002, this is what the pedro place looked like. It was not in good shape. It was opened, there were animals going in. The snow was getting in there, the weather, the rain. It was in bad shape and we were worried that was going to impact so much it cannot be saved. That back portion that was added on later, it was starting to separate from the main part of the house and they were worried it might pull the whole thing over. Addition had that some big issues as far as trying to keep it stable. A lot of places the house was just put on logs. There was not there were some rocks under there but it was not a nice foundation. It was in bad shape and we were worried about it. Then in 2006 we had an anonymous donor who provided funding to start stabilizing and renovating the house. You can see they took off that back addition. They numbered each of the logs so they would know how to put it back together. The one on the lower left shows that addition on, but it is in a pile in the back. They put boards up to keep the animals and whether out. And the weather out. That helped stop the destruction that was occurring. After they did work on it, they put windows in that were similar to the original windows. They sealed it up and put a roof on and a new foundation. This is what it looks like, that was taken in 2015. If you go out there on the tour with fred you will see it looks like that and it makes me happy to see that. When we first saw it, i did not know how long it was going to last. I was worried about it, so i am grateful that all of that work occurred in order to save the structure for folks like yourself to go see. The pedro barn had big problems also. Every time i would go out to the site over the years, as i drove up to the pedro place, i would if the breath and wonder barn was going to be down. It was collapsing. Every year it looked worse. There were animals on it and things like that. In 2015 we were likely that some work was done. Ive not seen the final of that. It is in pretty good shape now, isnt it . One of the most meaningful since of all of this work 2006, there been many site visits of descendents of the trujillo family. When you see how the family members appreciate, and how joyful they are to be there and see where their own history began, it makes all of our work seem worthwhile. You can see how many on the left are adult descendents, and that is not everybody. Were you out there at that time . She is in the picture somewhere probably. Are in thechildren other picture to the left on the right. Fantastic because these are all pedros descendents and teofilo. It is exciting to see these people out there. Connections. So archaeology is an amazing way to connect us to the past, just like the family was doing out there. Archaeology is also a way to connect all of us to the present and kind of keep this going. Archaeology is also a way for us to think about what opportunities we have to make a folks ine and educate the next generation, so they hopefully will appreciate and know these stories. These are important stories. So we want all of that to happen. And on these sites, archaeology was a big piece of that and i am proud of that. It was very exciting for me too. I actually ended up finding out something really needs. Neat. One of my classmates, actually freds classmate, she is a descendent of the family. I never knew that. When i went to school, i had no clue. So now i have got to know deborahs mom. And it has been very meaningful to me to see how archaeology and history can make a difference in our lives. One of the most important things i think happened to these two homestead sites, is we had a lot of support from the park service and also then secretary of interior, ken salazar, who supported nominating the two homestead as a National Historic landmark. Hat is really significant they were actually listed as what we call a National Historic landmark in 2012. That is me on the left, looking very happy. Fred is holding the plaque. And Laurie Simmons on the right, she and her husband were instrumental in putting the nomination together. It is very difficult, you have to have all of your data, you have a lot of people critiquing your information, but it is great because it makes you get good data. So this National Historic landmark, you can actually look at a online if you go to a website and search. There. Ve it is on becauseally important there are only so Many National landmarks in the u. S. , so for the valley to have this hispano homestead site be listed as a National Historic landmark is really fantastic. And i think that everybody here should be proud that that is part of the history of the valley. And it is being recognized as something important. One of the things i think as an archaeologist my job should be, and i tried to do this, is held educate the public help educate the public credit i do talks like this one public. I do talks like this one. And i talk a lot about this particular site, because it is so unique and is so important in our whole state, and actually our nation. National historic landmarks are not just important statewide, they are important for the whole united states. So, that is why they have done asngs like brought out far as the preserve of America Youth summit, we had kids come out and we were able to share the stories of the trujillos with these kids and help them understand why the history of the valley is important. Another thing i did with Laurie Simmons, the other coauthor on the landmark, we wrote a short article in the journal called t he southwestern lore, which is part of the archaeological society, is any of your members if any of you are members. We keep trying to get the information out. Andst think engaging people helping people understand stories like this, it is really important for the next generation, because after all of us are gone i am hoping that people will value these stories and sites like this, the history of the valley and we will keep the stories alive and keep remembering and telling their children. That is why i think it is important. And mrs. Just a list of so many is just so many people in groups. To do this work, nobody gives you millions of dollars to do this kind of thing. We wish they would. But we have to do a lot of the work on getting small parts of money from the state, the park service helped us do a lot of the work, and you can see a lot of people who are listed there a lot of volunteers. If anybody is thinking about volunteering from the park service has those opportunities. It means a lot to us in order to get things done. You can see it was a village. Really, to get all this done. And that is the end of this particular talk, which i would like to open it up to questions, but i know it is probably getting late. I have another little sort of preview thing, just a few minutes if youre interested in staying. I will talk about new research that we are doing in the valley. And nobody wants to escape . [laughter] marilyn ok. Then i will open it up for questions. You are welcome to ask questions about the trujillos. And i was trying to think how many years ago, probably 35, maybe even 40 years ago when i first was volunteering at great sand dunes. And they showed me some of the artifacts in their museum collection. And we saw some of these artifacts. And we thought, what are these . This is really heavy. I mean, they are really heavy. This weighs nine pounds. And they are very carefully made. I like to not pick them up because i do not want to break them. But if you want to come up afterwards you can take a closer look at these and you can see somebody shaped all of these. And we thought at the beginning estles,re estels p which would have been used up and down, to crush and grind something. Either in a would mo woood mortar or a stone one. But we had a researcher look at these and we realized that they were not used that way. So we put them back into the drawers, because we still do not know what they were did not know what they were. It was frustrating, because i thought, these had to be something. Somebody spent so much time making these. They chose the stone, they shaped them. What could they be . I have a colleague, david, who sent me a youtube video. This was several years ago. It was a researcher in paris at the museum of mann. He had a bunch of these in his drawers. They had been brought back from africa by french soldiers in the early 1900s. They did not know what they were either. So they thought that they were pestles, but this guy was a jeweler, so what he did was he got i do not have a jewelers hammer. But he actually got a hammer and he tapped on one, he had an inkling. [clanking] marilyn he realized that they were Musical Instruments. They were not grinding stones. This is what we were talking about before. This is the hand a stone. These are found on a lot of preHistoric Sites and on battle sites. This one is made of sandstone [clicking] marilyn the density of the rock is not dense enough to make these sounds that we hear on the rocks. Anyway, i had the opportunity. I had a couple of these at my house that i was returning to the park and i thought, well, maybe i should tap some of these. Sounds] marilyn and they made sounds and it was amazing. Maybe we haveow, figured out what they are. But nobody i know in colorado, no archaeologists had heard of these. Nobody knew what they were. I was returning them to fred and i had them in the back of my car. And i said, fred, you want to hear this idea i have, as far as function . Because it was a little wild, right . Right. Marilyn i said let me play some of these. He was pretty excited. I was floored. Marilyn so what happened after that. Lets see let me show you a little bit. These are called with no phones you can google them. You can hear them. You can see them. They are found all over the world. Lithel is great for stone li tho is great for sound. Carefullywere selected and highly shaped. They were used as Musical Instruments. , that isuy up there the french researcher playing them in paris. They actually did a concert with the French National orchestra with these. But they are found all over the world. I have done a lot of research and we actually ended up getting through the friends of the dunes, lucy, thank you for supporting us, they helped us get a grant. They sponsored a grant. Of course the park service, fred and all the folks at the park supported this effort to write a Research Grant on something new and crazy and actually got accepted. And so we are actually working on a grant right now. But, you know, we found by doing research these are all over the world. People know about them everywhere. Sometimes they are hung horizontally and played. Sometimes they are strong like the ones strung like the ones in ecuador. They are suspended. They can be played. You can go on youtube and you can google the the at phnom vietnam lithophones. And you can hear that gal play them. She hits them really hard. She plays them. I guess my understanding is that you can go there today and buy them. You can still find them. And there are certain groups that still use them. The ones on the left, that is how they were actually found, the very lower left photo. They were found a bright like that upright like that. These are everywhere, but why didnt we know about them . It was shocking, especially since my family is very musical. My husband is a band director. I thought, why didnt i think of this before . I think the reason is when you see this, what do you think . [indiscernible] a marilynmarilyn actually, she. They are phallic, that is one of the thoughts. [laughter] marilyn a phallic thing. But you do not necessarily see it as a musical instrument. When you look at these, it is not like if you found a wood flute from 1000 years ago. You would say oh, that is a wood flute, because it looks like one. I think what took so long for us to figure this out was they are rocks. And even though they are highly shaped, they do not, you just dont automatically think of Musical Instruments when you see them. But of course when there laid out like this it does give you a hint, because it looks like a xylophone. And let me show you um. [indiscernible] marilyn that is a great question. We do not know. Some of the ones that were found around the world, they found some in vietnam. They are 6000 years old. We do not know about these. These are all from the valley, except this one, which i had somebody give this to me. I live in and somebody found nearnear eerie, boulder creek, and he said, i think i have one. It was broken by a plow but it still plays. My thought is there are some other places, but for some reason in the valley there are so many of these. And what does that mean . We do not know. Does it mean that they are possibly really old . We do have very early preHistoric Sites here in the valley. Nd we do have one was particular lithophone found on an archaic site, so about 50006000 years old. It is the only one we have that has a specific location, because most of the others were found by collectors many years ago. Them upe, they picked and they may have said it came from indian springs, or something, but we do not have an exact location. We do not have the context that we need in order to get a date off of them. If we were to find one where it was sitting, there might be a way that we could actually date it. That is what we are hoping in the future, that we can do that. We, we need to get out . Ok. [indiscernible] marilyn here is what we are doing. We are not only describing these, but because they are Musical Instruments we are actually doing a musical analysis of each one. And i actually have a couple of apps on my phone and you can look at the app and you can play one of these. [dinging] marilyn and it will tell you what no you are playing note you are playing, it will give you all this wonderful information. So we have done that with every one of these. What about the structure, like a c or an a . Marilyn we have all the notes written down into somebody asked if it was all the black notes on the piano. But some of them are, and some of them are other notes. Sharp or flat . Marilyn yes. We have g sharp, a flat, we have c, d, e. What is interesting is most of them, unless they are really flat, play two notes. See if you can hear this. [clinking] [clinking] marilyn some of them, the second as a whole step above, or a quarter step, and that is the kind of thing were trying to figure out. Some of them play the same note, but higher octaves. So this is such an Interesting Group of them, because they have different, they make a different sounds. Some of them sound more like a marimba. This one has more of a wood sound. This one [dings] marilyn it sounds like a bell, a metal bell or crystal. So some but he was really excited when they found that this rock. [laughter] marilyn and i mean, they have different sounds. The other thing, if you are a musician at all, when you look at a marimba or a xylophone they are attached to something. They have to sit on something. But they can only be attached at these two points on either the wood war and metal or metal. Alled two points are cu dull the zones. This is all physics, so i am trying to learn about physics. When you hit one of these here, to soundwaves cross at these nodes, then they split again and then they cross, and then they go to the end. But where they cross at these two points is where you can set them on something, like i did hear. Here. Or you can hold them at that point. If i hold it at this point [dings] marilyn it is very resident. What if i hold it here . Do you hear how it changes it . So they must have known that they were very resonant, only a few if could hang it on those nodes, or suspend it, or lay it down on something. Interesting toly me. I tried to find where these are by ear only. Like an tap across marilyn i do not know if you can hear where it changes. [dings] marilyn that is the node. You can also, we actually tried this the other day, they said that the african lithophones, people would play them across their laps. So their legs would be sitting right where that node was. Or the best way was to lay them on your ankles, because it will not muffle it as much. As your legs. We actually tried. It is pretty neat. [laughter] marilyn a little bit weird, but you are sitting and you can play them with your legs just out in front of you. It would hurt on your ankle bone. Marilyn yes. Some of these, like this one. If you come up here afterwards, you can put your hand even close to this one and you can feel the vibration. What that is, is basically that is the sound waves traveling through it. This one, i love this one. It is fantastic. [clinking] marilyn it is kind of a piercing sound, but you can feel the stone vibrating. The best places to play these, if you are playing them, is on the end or in the center, but you do not want to play them on the nodes because those are dull. But just so you get an idea. [clinking] pitched] [laughter] [applause] ask,yn and people always well, we know that people thousands of years ago did not have these right . Because i ordered these online from amazon. [laughter] marilyn but what did they play them with . We figured they probably used Something Like a rock. [dings] marilyn i am trying not to do that because i do not want to damage these our actual artifacts, so i do not want to make new marks on them because we are looking at them with a lens and we may be able to tell what kind of material they were playing with. [indiscernible] marilyn that is a good question. He asked, what kind of stones they are. I am still try to figure that out. We have had a lot of people look at these. Some seem to be granite. Some are did thisa lab that tha for free. They have a machine and they just zap it. And they can tell you exactly what the composition of the rock is. I think that will be very hopeful for us. When we are trying to figure out may be why certain rocks make a sound that is more like wood, and maybe why this one sounds so much like a bell. Um, so that is something we are still working on. You might find crystals inside. [laughter] marilyn we do not know. I am looking forward to the results. I cannot have them yet. Yes . If you take one and you doinge it, would it different tone or destroy it . Marilyn great question. That is my next project. [laughter] marilyn people say, well, where do you get Something Like this . Really quickly and will play this is with a redbone rib bone. We had these for dinner one night. [clinks] marilyn maybe not quite as good. This is actually a burned bone. [clinks] marilyn this is of course antlers. This is very hard. Youou want to make a sound need something hard like a rock or something. But [dinging] marilyn so they couldve easily used different materials. I have tried, my daughter is a percussionist and i tried her wooden sticks and they actually do not make a good sound. Is too because the wood soft. A kind of makes it clunk. Makes a clunk. Any way that is what we have been working on. We are trying to understand this and any information or questions that people have our great, because we want to ask all of the questions about these. I think i started out with maybe 10 questions, and now i have 100. [laughter] marilyn but that is fun because it makes us learn. We are still learning about these. [indiscernible] marilyn i do not know come a maybe know, maybe in the park. I do not know. We have had articles. And othersletter periodicals. As you progress, we definitely want to document it. Marilyn we have not written our report yet. That will be quite a few months from now. Measuredve done is i them all, i have weighed them, this one is over nine pounds. This is the heaviest, it is well over nine pounds. Some of them like this one, maybe they, i think you are the one that asked the question, you know, if you keep reshaping them or making them smaller do they keep the sound . I do not know. This one is really small in diameter and has an awesome sound. I think it may have more to do with the rock type and density of the rock, rather than the actual size. That is something that we want to know. Where did they get these. You do not just see them lying around. Somebody had to go find a place where these were occurring naturally and then decide that it made a sound of some sort, and shape it. May be they shaped it to make a pure tone. Maybe that is why. Or if it was used for religious purposes, maybe they wanted to make it almost perfectly rounded. Some of them are not. Some of them look like this. So we just, we have a lot more but ons than answers, b ut are there any drawings that show someday like this . Marilyn i believe there is rock art somewhere where somebody is holding these and somebody else is playing them with another rock. That is something i want to do, look at the rock art sites in the valley, for example. A lot of them are not very old. But who knows . Maybe we can find a picture of somebody holding one of these up and playing it. That would be fantastic, if we could do that. Yes . Suggest that you get a hold of a good acoustical engineer, that then could explain to you the harmonics that take place. That have to do with the size and other things like that. If you got that and a geologist together they could probably figure out which shapes are causing different things. And the characteristics of the rocks that then would change the actual tone, based on the rock structure. Marilyn i think you are right. We have talked to a number of different people. I actually have a percussionist working with me who is good. He actually writes music from her in the for xylophones, so he is under good is very good at understanding the basics of the music. That we need to know more about but we need to know more about physics, because it is based on how soundwaves travel through material. That is complicated. That is not easy. Marilyn thank you. [applause] announcer coming up this weekend in American History tv, on cspan3, tonight at 10 00 america, an on reel 1970s film on the mission and operation of the detroit news. Liberal,hings we are in others we are conservative. But there is an effort to give to our best ability both sides of the question. To give our readers a balanced diet from which they can select their own opinion. Announcer sunday at 11 00 a. M. , former National Park service chief historian Robert Sutton on the immigration of new england abolitionists to kansas. Of amos by the name adams lawrence. Does that sound familiar . He was so upset by the whole affair that he wrote a letter to his uncle, and in the letter he said we went to bed oldfashioned, conservative union wigs, and woke up abolitionists. Announcer then spencer crew on the great migration of africanamericans from the south to areas west after one or one. After world war i. They had a lack of workers. To whether begin to do was figure out where else we can find people to hold these jobs. And for the First Time Ever the positions for africanamericans in northern industry began to become available. And so there is now a reason to move to the north, to move to the cities, because there are jobs. Announcer American History tv, all we can, every weekend, only on cspan3. Announcer next on history bookshelf, journalist Robert Samuelsson talks about his book,the great inflation and its aftermath. The transformation of american politics and society. He talks about about the rise of economic inflation from 1960 to 1969 and its impact. This was recorded at the world bank in washington dc in 2009. It is about an hour and 10 minutes. Hans good afternoon, everybody. Let me say on behalf of the world bank and prospects group, we welcome you to this book event. Let me welcome the cspan viewers that at some point will be viewing this presentation. Very much we want to welcome robert samuelson. We will