Of state as the situation indet. You can see that online at cspan. Org. And were with travis. Caller the iran deal is good. I fought in iraq, and i am tired saying the deal is bad, and lets do nothing and invade. Really, what do we do to iran . Air strikes . Travis, as a veteran, what do you think about veterans against the deal and other groups that say iran is supporting the terrorists groups and the groups that fought in iraq directly against our troops during the iraq war . Caller thats the same veterans. What do you think about us soviets . How do you think about us arming saudi arabia who cut off the heads of christians everyday . Its a concern of mine where i dont care, because i would rather have iran be monitored and tracked and we would let them have certain things but wont let have others, and i would rather us be in control and invade them and kill them and make another vacuum for isis to occupy. The alternative that anybody else can offer is pointless, and i think obama, even though i dont like him, i dont like president obama, i think this deal is better than nothing. Travis in centerville, virginia, last comment there. More washington journal here on cspan. Michael warren will join us and talk about donald trump and his position he began to layout in his camp. And then we will talk about areas of importance to millennials, including student debt and College Affordability. More ahead. Institute for policy studies onlow and antiwar activist the recent negotiations with iran and the war on terrorism. Who are isis . What are their origins . Why are they so violent . All of those questions are important and digest them all in the book. But think what is more important because it is something we can do something about, is what is the u. S. Policy regarding isis . Why isnt it working . Can we really go to war against terrorism . Are we really doing it wrong or is it wrong to say there should be a war against terrorism at all . I think those are the questions that will be the most useful. Sunday night at eight across eastern and pacific on cspans q a. With the senate in its august break, we will feature be booktv programming on cspan2 starting at 8 00 eastern. And here are a few special programs. Saturday, august 22, live from jackson mississippi for the inaugural mississippi book festival. Beginning at 11 30 a. M. Eastern. With discussions on civil rights in the civil war. On saturday, september 5, we are live from our Nations Capital for the 15th annual National Book festival. Fallen on sunday by our live in Depth Program, with lynne cheney. Booktv on cspan two. Television for serious readers. Washington journal continues. Host mike warren writes for mike warren writes for the weekly standard, and he is here to talk about donald trump and some of his evolving issues, and we talked about the debate, and clump defiant at gop debate. When does that turn into policy issues on positions . Thats a good question. We would like to know when donald trump will come out with details on where his policy positions are. He was asked about health care, and he was asked about immigration, of course, which he created a lot of controversy over comments about mexico sending criminals over the border, and he talked about the iran deal, and he didnt offer any specific policy prescriptions on health care, for instance, and theres a big debate among republicans on what to do with the Affordable Care act, you repeal it entirely and do you replace it with Something Different or go back to the status quo before, and donald trump doesnt seem to be interested in discussing that, he says whatever i will bring it will be better. In fact, he sort of gave a comment towards socialized medicine, and in scotland and canada, they have a good program there. It shows you how shallow trumps policy positions are and his appeal has been mostly style over substance. He is best served not really unveiling or revealing positions, but at some point the debate schedule picks up and theres another month until the cnn debate coming up in the middle of september, and you would have to think that those questions would get more specific about policy. What about behind the scenes . Who does he have working and what does he have developing in terms of policy issues . He has been a little opaque about what he is doing behind the scenes. He says he has a great team and he has been firing a couple people or a couple people left the campaign, but he says he is staffing up now. I would be interested to see what sort of republican policy thickers, and there are few here in washington or around the country he has lining up to join his campaign. I have not heard of any, and i have heard others joining other campaigns, and theres ideas about regarding Immigration Reform and how a republican president might address the iran deal if it does go through or if it doesnt go through. Again, there does not seem to be any indication that trump is doing anything to move in a direction that would be more specific about policy. I think what is going to happen, as these debates, as you say, ramp up, and there is more discussion and more details going into the fall about some of these debates that congress is having, and that president obama is bringing up, and as the campaign sort of really starts to focus on iowa and new hampshire, the early states where you have got people that voted in several primaries in the past, and they know what they are looking for, and they are interested in actually talking about detailed policy proposals that trump is going to, i think, really struggle and is going to have to either come up with something substantive, which i think he will have a hard time doing, or he will drop out in the polls. You are already starting to see that just from some of the early polls after the first debate. The early polls after the first debate include this one reported by usa today. They said his performance costs him ground in the state, and so the look at it is in iowa, if voting today and this is with 500 likely caucus goers in iowa, trump 17 , and trump has not made any actual on the ground into iowa, has he . No, he made an appearance the month before, and i think they make up a big chunk of the iowa caucus pool, and he said some things that turned a lot of people off, if you talk to anybody and read the reports about what these activists thought about what donald trump had to say about never asking god for forgiveness, and being glib about taking communion, and i think it rubbed people the wrong way, and all of a sudden this idea that donald trump was a great white knight coming into save the Republican Party from the establishment, the scales started to fall from peoples eyes and saying, wait he was not who we thought he was or maybe we had not thought about who donald trump really is, and you add that with the comments that he said at the debate or that were brought up about women, and i think its probably going to turn a lot of the conservative christian voters in iowa off, and thats a problem for him. We have not seen evidence of that yet in terms of polling . No, you pointed out that he is still leading but he is down nine points from where the average was no, it was prejuly. Its significant. Polls can be indicators of where people are. The fact that he is still in the lead but the fact you are seeing other republican candidates, maybe who did not have as high a profile as donald trump moving up in the polls, i think that shows you that once these debates are happening and once people see them all sort of on the same stage on the same level and able to judge them, that you are going to see a shift and a change and people are going to see, there are more options in this election other than jeb bush and Hillary Clinton, which is the protrump movement. Donald trump, were talk about him and some of his positions. One of the issues, the one that vaulteded him initially was immigration and he talked about it last night in michigan talking about his proposed wall between the u. S. And mexico. Ten years ago everybody wanted the wall. The democrats, the republicans. They couldnt get it. You know one of the reasons they couldnt get it . Environmental impact statements. Did you know that . There were toads. Its the most incredible thing. We are going to get the wall built and its going to be right and mexico will pay for it, and mexico is making a fortune off the United States, and they are going to be happy about it because the cost of the wall is peanut compared to the kind of money they are making. Mexico is becoming the new china. I have a great love for mexico. I have love for the mexican people. I have thousands of mexico people over the years, and mexicans worked for me, and they are now, thousands. They are fantastic people, a great spirit. But their politicians and leaders are much smarter and shopper and more cunning, and i say the word cunning, they are more cunning than our leaders. They will pay for the wall and be happy about it, and they will continue to do well, but not as well as they are not doing right now. They are taking too many of our jobs. Are you hearing anything in there that just beyond the immigration and the wall and other policy areas in terms of the economy or, you know, he talked about Environmental Impact statements . To be honest, no. What you are hearing from him lets take that immigration, theres a lot of nothing in what he just said. He is repeating a lot of what you hear from republican politicians frequently about the boarde border, a need to build a fence and we have been hearing that from candidates for years, and its nothing new. Donald trump is more of a stylistic is less substance sort of revival of america message. Listen to what he said. Mexico is the new china. Their leaders are smarter than ours, and it tells us about the impact china is having and the drain china is have aing on americas role in the world. Does he talk about what should be done about currency manipulation in china . I have not heard anything from him and maybe he will get into that. Maybe there is nothing that will break out of the talking points that give him applause lines at republican and conservative groups and rallies and those sorts of things, but he has been saying the same things for two months, and theres no indication he will get any more specific. Lets hear what viewers are hearing on trump. Thurman from north carolina. Good morning. Caller what we need to sit back and do is take this serious, and trump is saying what people want to hear, and we are tired of sending people to d. C. And getting bought. Mr. Trump, as long as he puts good people in his side and people around him, be careful what we are talking about. This man can be president. Thank you. I think that speaks entirely to the support that trump is getting. He is speaking to a group of people out there, which i think is a large group of people, larger than we would like to think in washington, that see Hillary Clinton as the likely democratic nominee, and jeb bush is a likely possible republican nominee, and they think these are the only two families that can be elected president . We send the same people as the caller said, we send the same people up to washington every year and they dont get anything done. Trump is speaking to that. Again, the problem is, its all stylis stylisic. Theres nothing behind it, and i think once people hear and see more of trump and see more questions asked of him, how do you position yourself on what should be done about Health Care Policy . Then i think, again, there is going to be sort of a revelation that, you know, the emperor has no clothes. We go to the democrats line. Anthony, go ahead. Caller thank you, cspan i feel you are very evenminded in your presentation of the news. I think that donald trump is all fluff and no stuff. He will come out with a line of trump junk and make a lot of money. You can answer my comment offline. Thank you. Yeah, i mean, i agree with that. But i will say this, this is something that i think republicans have brought on themselves. A lot of the stuff, for instance, i mentioned about immigration and building a wall. This is something that republicans had been saying for years in campaigns and never deliver. There are some good reasons for that. Its a complicated issue. There are lots of interests out in the country and here in washington, that makes doing that difficult, but i think that republicans need to sort of understand that theres a group of people out there that dont trust leadership to followthrough on what they say or who believe that during election time they are hearing something from politicians that will help them get elected and then when they get to washington, nothing ever gets done and thats a real frustration. I think that people will, again, realize that donald trump may be a voice for the frustrations and he has not proven himself yet to be a voice for solutions to a lot of the problems. As a businessman he had many projects as a political person he has evolved from being a democrat to a republican. Does that evolution of both party and views on issues hurt or harm him with the base, the core, the Republican Party who has to support him to get the nomination . You would think it would, right . Folks gave mitt romney a hard time for being pro choice in the 90s, but being prolife for the last 20 years. A lot of folks in the party did not trust him even after he became the nominee on that issue. Donald trump was pro choice within the last decade or sooner, and he has now changed his mind. I think a lot of people are willing to believe that folks will change their minds on that issue, but it races a lot of questions. Whether its the abortion issue or donating to democrats, or being honest about the seeking he has done, i give money to democratic politicians in new york because they do things for me, and that would sink any other candidate, and the way he speaks about it it makes it a little more like a reality show, and i like what he is saying about stopping the lobbyist and politicians in washington, and i dont think thats what is going to catch up on him, its more of the lack of substance on the issues that i think republicans are more serious about solving after the 2016 elections. Lets go to fran on our republican line. Caller i am a nervous wreck here but bear with me. I do not care what his policies are. Right now he has a job to do, which is shake them up in their boots. Thats his job. They are scared because he has enough money to play until the end and thats the only thing they care about, and thats what scares them the most. I hope he goes all the way. He cannot be any worse than what we have right now. I dont care what he says about women, i dont care what he says, and i will tell you what, if he gets elected, i get two things. He will stop these stupid trade deals and put up a wall, i am convinced he will do that. If nothing else that puts us ahead of where we are now. So there you have it. And i will say, i am a republican tried and true. I am a social and cultural conservative and the republicans have done nothing for me, okay . Nothing. All they want is my money and my vote and they walk away. I am done with them. I dont want them to come to me and say if you vote for me i will do a, b. And c. No more. No more. Now, you do something first and then come to me and tell me to vote for you, and fran, from new york, thank you for the call. The trade deals, we heard Donald Trumps evolving view on u. S. Trade. Yeah, thats right. He was taking more of a populist view reminiscent of the ross perot agreement against free trade agreements in the early 90s, but, again, i am not quite sure what his solutions are for these sorts of things, and he talked about china and russia, and the influence those countries are having and they are beating us. I think that americas standing in the world, whether its on Foreign Policy or Economic Policy or trade policy, and seems to be weakened. This is one where the trade Promotion Authority and the trade deal would have strengthened americas possession, but i dont think republicans and democrats made a very good case for that, and again, a big part of this is a problem of communication and sort of promising things and not delivering on them or under selling what you are trying to do for the country, and i think this is something that republicans have not quite figured out how to deal with, which is a big chunk of their own voters dont like them. We are with mike warren talking about donald trump and the issues, and we go to greg in san bernardino, california, on our democrats line. Caller yes, good morning. Michael, i dont agree with your views on the way you talk about the polls relating to trump. The majority of time when i listen to pundits like yourself, you have an agenda against trump. As a democrat, as far as the polls are concerned, those polls have never came from a poll from we democrats. Look, donald trump was doing great and we can get those illegal people out of this country, and people say there is no way, look, we can employ a person like sheriff, and theres plenty of space in the desert and we can place a long line on the highways, and you remember the trail of tears when we marched the native americans from their land . Why cant we just march the illegal immigrants, stop calling them undocumented. They are breaking the law. They have no allegiance to these United States and it really upsets me and other americans greg, lets ask you, then, are you at this point supportive of donald trump as a candidate just on his possession of immigration . Yes, he is a viable candidate. Hillary clinton is not saying anything about the illegals. Thats greg from california. What is your reaction . If you look at the polling on donald trump over the last several weeks, theres a perception that the most conservative republicans are the ones supporting donald trump, and i dont think that is necessarily true, and he is getting quite a few votes from moderate republicans or democrats like the caller just now. I think there is we sort of look at things in a right and left dichotomy and think, okay, if you are supporting the republicans saying these things on immigration, you must be far right. I think it speaks to a middle out there that is angry and justifiably so about ilLegal Immigration, and he is speaking to that. Donald trump is giving voice in a way that the other candidates out there really arent, you know, and they talk about things like the dream act and, you know, we are a nation of immigrants, and they speak a very aspirational language about immigration, and i think thats an important part of american history, but theres another part of american society, a bad economy, a feeling that the country is sort of being overrun by people and there should be limits. Trump is speaking to that. The problem goes back to i know i said this several times, theres a lack of substance, and he mentioned the video clip you played when i first came on, mexico will build this wall and they will pay for it and they will be happy about it, and he turns around and says, because they are making a lot of money right now in the concern the regime of sending folks over and there is some truth to that, and so its sort of an incoherent statement. Mexico will pay for the wall and we dont know how, and they are going to be happy about paying for it, and they are also going to be making less money from remittances from a result of it, and its anincoherence, and its something very real. You dont get much substance. This is an opportunity for republican candidates to step up and offer something to the voters. Lets hear from lawrenceville, georgia, on the republican line. Caller good morning, and thank you for cspan. Michael, would you have 10 million and i will listen to you . I was a democrat for a long time and i evolved because the democrats turned into a socialists party, and i am a capitalist. He doesnt talk so softly, and he carries a big stick and he says we will rule like we used to, and he is not a democrat or republican, but he is an american. All the americans will gather together and vote for him, because he is for us. Thank you. Thank you, and from my home county, i understand what the caller is speaking about, and i think again, you look at what were the hats donald trump has been wearing around. I think folks in washington have been snickering, the hats say make America Great again, and its an ironic reaction from folks inside the belt. Those are folks that feel like america is not great right now, after the last eight years or 16 years, whether its the economic crisis, the iraq war, the way that turned out, theres a feeling out there that america is not respected in the world or were not the leader we once were, and again, trump is speaking to that, and what i cant seem to get from everything, from whether its the Trump Campaign or what he says in the debates or speeches is anything more past the first step, and i think once people look, i dont have 10 million, but i do i am a journalists and ask a lot of these candidates questions. There are serious debates about what to do, and donald trump seems to be rising above all the debates and not having to answer any questions. I am eager to hear what he has to say about, for instance, making the Health Care System more competitive and he simply says it will be better once i am elected president. I wouldnt trust any candidate who said that whether they have 10 million or any other experience, and thats a problem for him. And one article says talks about the difficulties clinton and bush are having, and their lead article on the other leading candidate in the race, Bernie Sanders, how is he doing it . They are talking about the numbers he is drawing, and he is the other populist candidate in this race, getting a lot of attention, and unlike donald trump, he has been pretty specific on the issues, and why is it working for him . I think Bernie Sanders has a world view, he has a view, a european style, and so you see that when he talks about, you know, a free Higher Education, a universal health care, stopping a foreign war and these sorts of things, and i think its a fully formed viewpoint of how the world should be and its appealing to democratic voters. Theres a new poll out today from the Boston Herald of new hampshire, democratic primary voters that shows Bernie Sanders ahead, and this is just one poll and may not be indicative of what is going on on the ground in new hampshire, and he has been gaining in that state and its not because he is from vermont, but i think he is talking with voters who are not happy with the bay the Obama Administration has been going on, and they thought it would be a greater progressive era, and we are seeing a mixed record from the Obama Administration. And Hillary Clinton doesnt seem like the great progressive hero to these voters and i have been to Bernie Sanders events, not ones that have had 20 or 15,000 people, but he speaks to young progressive voters in the Democratic Party, the kind who might have been excited about barack obama, and they look at Hillary Clinton and think, is this all we have . Is he tapping into the same frustration that donald trump has . Yeah, i think so there are debates on trade, and i think hes tap into it again, we talked about it on the cover story, the weekly standard, the frustration with dynasties, and i think there are a lot of people out there thinking, are these the only two, Hillary Clinton and jeb bush that we have to choose from . If these two were not running, i dont think the trump and sanders phenomena would be happening. We go to the independent line. Good morning. Caller good morning. I am glad for cspan, and i would like to make a comment or two. He says that donald trump doesnt put anything out. He said that he would open the insurance up to all the states, and in minnesota we have three or four companies to choose from, why cant i buy insurance from texas, arizona, wherever. Thats one of the things he talked about. He talked about building a wall. You talk about serious debates. What candidate has put any policy forward of any kind yet . None of them have. Republicans stand up there i was a republican and now i am an independent because the republicans are the party of no, and i am sick of the party of no. They dont do anything, if barack obama puts it out there, they dont want it. Some of his ideas could be changed f for the better, and h doesnt have all bad ideas, and i dont like the guy, and i will tell you what, trump, he has my vote, and if he asked for donations, i will give it to them, and i will send nothing to the gop, because they are the party of no. At this point, he has not asked for donations . I got an email from a Trump Campaign through an affiliate asking for campaign donations, and i saw it just yesterday and its the first time i have seen it. He is willing to fund his own campaigns and he can do that, but i think its interesting that the caller would be willing to send money to donald trump. Its a testimony to, you know, sort of how popular his message is. I do want to say on health care, i think it was a great point that the caller made about the need for people to be able to buy insurance across state lines. This is a republican position on Health Insurance that they had for years, even before the Affordable Care act was passed. The problem, again, with republicans, they have not really coalesced around one replacement vision for health care, and it was not talked about in the 2014 midterm elections, that the republicans did win to their credit, but, again, you know, i have been up here complaining about Donald Trumps lack of substance, and you could say the same thing about the Republican Partys agenda or a lack of cohesion about where the party wants to take the country, and you ask somebody out there, what does the Republican Party want to do for the country, i dont think you can get a cohesive vision or message and thats a problem. Is part of that due to the fact they have 17 major candidates running, tough to get cohesion around 17 candidates . Yes, and this is where the debate is. Both houses of congress are now controlled by republicans and there could be a counter balance to the president and his agenda, and also sort of a republican Agenda Setting work being done on capitol hill. Theres some of that happening, but its not cohesive and complete. You have seen this, again, in the health care debate, and there were competing views about what to do, whether you replace it with Something Else and repeal it entirely and start over completely. There hasnt been, i think, a consensus among republicans in Congress Like you may think there would be. In 2007, 2008, in the run up to obamas presidency, they didnt get anything passed because bush was president and he threatened to veto things, and the health care debate, the childrens Health Insurance program, that was laying the ground work for what happened with the Affordable Care act in 2009 and 2010. I have not quite seen that kind of work being done on capitol hill. The donald trump speaking yesterday in michigan, and we showed you some of his comments. Trump experts latino and female vote. You will love a president trump. That headline, detroit free press. We go to our republican line, and its jack, hello, there. Caller good morning, gentlemen. Good morning, mr. Warren. Good morning. Caller i would like to offer you all a little counter point, and i want you to consider this perception from the american public. We are seeing history, obviously, and what we are seeing is an American Republic that is revolving. They are tired of the politicians conflict of interests crimes, we saw all the stuff in the news about Hillary Clinton now, and i dont think she will make it to the national, and basically what they are looking at from their point of view is a single party system. Trump, as you have said, has struck a cord, but i disagree with you on the point that he has no substance, because even though people have said there is no infrastructure behind him, i dont think they are doing their research closely enough. I want to bring up the point, you know, reagan wasnt going to make it either, and he was a democrat before he was a republican, and so all of these other things that people are throwing out there about him, youre looking at a Cross Section of america where its divided down the center and you have a lot of older folks, and you have the young conservative these young i call them lefties, because they are on barrys bandwagon and they put him up there at least for two terms. When trump says mexico will build the wall happy, he has a good point and he knows where he is coming from, because once he brings the security to the border and the border is armed, mexico, more than likely, would build the wall, happy. I am not talking about a physical wall. Jack, thank you for your comments. Lets get some thoughts from mike warren. First of all, i think were maybe overstating Donald Trumps influence here. You look at these republican primary polls and you look at the National Primary poll, and its 20 , which is significant and he is leading in the polls, and you can also say he has 80 of republicans are supporting soma b else other than trump. So we should keep that in mind, particularly when we compare trump insurgency to the sanders insurgency, and he is polling in the 30 , and he is just as big of an influence in the Democratic Party with fewer candidates than trump is. And the caller mentioned a lack of substance from donald trump which i have been talking about. I think if donald trump is going to move forward in iowa and new hampshire, he will have to offer something more than simply i am going to build a wall. If this iran deal goes through, i am a great deal maker, and i can negotiate this so that they wont get any nuclear weapons. But he is speaking, again, to sort of a frustration that the caller mentioned, a oneparty system, and once everybody gets up to washington they are all on the same team. I think that may be a little unfair to some of the republican candidates in the race, a lot of them who are governors who are doing interesting things in their own states, and theres other republican candidates out there that i think are saying interests things about health care and iran and defense spending that should be listened to and i think the more debates we hear, we will hear more details about that and maybe the caller wont be so frustrated with the state of the party, and we will see that there really are two distinct parties in the country offering two different visions. We are talking about trump and the issues and a headline from cbs that says Donald Trumps policy proposals remain a history. Messages on twitter. Trump message is i will do whatever i want when i am president and i dont care what anybody else thinks about it. Trump has credibility because of the casino business relies on people with disposable income. Lets hear from virginia, and we go to rich on the democrats line. Caller good morning. Just real quick, i think you didnt play the whole, you know, this morning when you played that clip about trump, trump also said in that same blerb, i listened to it last night, ford is building a plant to make trucks in mexico and he said mexico is becoming the new china. I love you guys, but it would have helped i think a lot of listene listeners, he was trying to link the wall and mexico and the situation. When your guest is saying he doesnt have any policies, i think he does, he is being general because if he came out with the policies everybody would be attacking him on his policies. He said, well bring jobs back to america. I think thats part of what people are interested in him about because nobody else has even been talking about that stuff. Bringing jobs back to america, on the callers point, a lot of candidates have proposed that or offered that, republican candidates, certainly. Thats right, with about the same amount of detail and substance, although maybe thats not quite fair to somebody like, say, rick santorum, who has really put out a detailed policy proposal about, you know, limited immigration, and Legal Immigration by 25 and changing some of the tax code to give manufacturers sort of advantages that they dont have in the current tax code. Look, i think this is speaking to a divide among republicans. You might want to call it sort of the chamber of commerce style of republicans, and the sort of blue color reagan democrat style of republicans. I think they have had a lot of in common over the last several decades, but there are physicianers there. In the sense there are republicans out there who think not only is ilLegal Immigration something we can put aside and have an amnesty for, and there are people out there that say wait a second, i dont have a job or making the amount i ought to be making, why should we let other people in from other countries . Any sense where the Tea Party Supporters are on donald trump . I think its mixed. I dont think the tea party automatically flows into trumps support. They have other champions out there, and ted cruz is one of them and i think he maintained a level of support, even though trump has taken away from other types of candidates like rand paul and others, sort of occupying the tea party wing. Ted cruz kind of maintained a level of support that suggests that he retains that sort of were mad the washington, and if you look at the way he talks, he goes after mitch mcconnell, and the donald trump phenomenon is related but different. Here is columbus, ohio. Jane, good morning, she is on our republican line. Caller good morning, and thank you. I am totally against how the republicans and the democrats have been running our country. One is just as guilty as the other, and two wrongs do not make a right. I want to let you know that, republicans. And i think you should stand behind donald trump or were not going to get back in office. I really and truly do. Lets get one more call here. We will go to diana who is in tennessee, the independents line. Caller good morning. Morning. Caller i want yall to not forget the eric cantor affect, and the polls said he was a shooin, and the blue collar worker, we need a dollar and not a handout or food stamp. We cannot continue this stuff. You talk about donald trump flipflopping. Are you kidding me . Every person i voted for, i voted for obama. Wrong. The flipflopping is you get out here, get our vote, and you flipflop between us and in there. We will let you go diana, and we will head to immigration. Cops say california murder suspect in country illegally, and donald trump or the candidate personally has been active, and his Twitter Response is again, illegal immigrant charged with fatal bludgeoning of a 64yearold woman, get them out and build a wall. That was his comments last night. I have been talking about the need for trump to speak on substance, but i think the stories like this, about what the caller was just talking about, the struggles of blue collar america in america and the false promises, that both parties have given them, it gives republicans an opportunity. If donald trump needs more on substance, you know, you hear a lot about well as republicans we have to reach out to those that dont usually vote for us, and thats good and well and you want to expand the number of people that vote for you as much as you can, especially when you have been losing elections, but republicans cant forget the type of voters that vote them into office in the first place. And the caller who said she voted for obama and voted for republicans in the past, and these are the swing voters as well, and people who may be more socially conservative and who do want to work hard and dont want a handout but do feel like the system is set against them, and its interesting and ironic to me that donald trump has become the champion for that, but it just goes to you the sort of dirth of leadership from the republicans and democrats. You can follow his reporting on twitter at. Host michaelrwarren. And up next, we talk with jen mishory. She will talk about student debt and affordability. And mark perry will be here to talk about his recent article magazine on pentagon infighting, the best way to fight chinese aggression. All that ahead on this mornings washington journal. First Lady Helen Taft made several notable changes to the white house. The most obvious was replaci first lady and her greatest legacy was bringing thousands of japanese Cherry Blossom trees to the Nations Capital. First ladies, influence and image. Examining the public and private lives of women that filled the position of first lady and their influence on the presidency, from Martha Washington to michelle obama, sunday at 8 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan3. This sunday night on q a on u. S. Foreign policy since 9 11. The recent negotiations with iran and the war on terrorism. Who is isis . What are their origins . What do they believe . Why are they so violent . All those questions are important and i address them all in the book, and what is more important in some ways is what is the u. S. Policy regarding isis . Why isnt it working . Can we go to war against terrorism . Are we doing the war wrong or is it wrong to say there should be a war against terrorism as all . I think those are the questions that in some ways are the most important and will be the most useful. Sunday night at 8 00 eastern and pacific, on cspans q a. Washington journal continues. Joining us is the executive director of a group called young invincibles, talking about issues important to College Affordability and student debt. At your organization, young invisibles, what formed the group . Were a National Nonprofit work og Economic Issues facing this generation and issues that face millennials different than our parents. Like access to college, student debt, access to health care, employment issues, wages, et cetera. A lot of the economic pocketbook issues are quite different for this generation than they were for previous generations. Were heading up to the 2016 election and beginning to see candidates unveil some of their proposals. In terms of student debt and College Loans and College Affordability. Whats your groups view on where the federal government should be in terms of making college more affordable and doing something about the amount of student debt out there . Its interesting. Higher education in general is a reflection of state policy, federal policy, and whats going on in a very local campus level. So states are actually ones that fund a lot of these Public Institutions and most student goes to a Public College in their state. The federal government provides things like the pell grant which provides a grant to lowincome students to afford school. They also provide Student Loans. And they provide most of the Student Loans in this country. Theyre providing access for young people to be able to attend school. We know student debt is growing so theres certainly a role for the federal government to be able to step in and ensure we dont have a lot of the young People Holding that kind of debt. That debt is growing. To give folks a reference point, the total u. S. Student loan debt, seems like just yesterday was under 1 trillion. Now 1. 2 trillion. The average debt per class in the class of 2015 per borrower is 35,000. The total number in default currently is 8 million. 8 million out of how many People HoldingStudent Loans . 40 million . About 40 million People HoldingStudent Loans. High default rates. Weve seen that volume increase. Its doubled since 2008 and weve seen the debt increase significantly. We have more people going to college, n thats a good thing but also rising levels of debt. Were going to break up our phone lines a little different with jen mishory looking at Student Loans n student debt. 2027488000 if you have a loan. If youve paid off your Student Loans, 2027488001. If you have no Student Loans, 2027488002. And for all others if you feel you dont fit in one of those categories, 2027488003. You can also send us an email. You have College Affordable out there and the whole College Student loan process. In your groups opinion, whats the most important thing to address first . Youre right. Its a multilegged stool here. Thats what makes it hard. Its complicated. We need to see states reinvesting in Higher Education. Weve seen that investment since the great depression. About 47 States Invest less today than they did previous to the great recession. We also need to see something that addresses the debt that folks currently hold. We have a lot of people who are defaulting and that means its ruining our credit or Financial Lives are impacted by those defaults. Providing some relief for folks that are struggling and having trouble making those payments is critical as well. And then we need to start thinking about how we provide also more transparency. When you are a student trying to figure out how to get to school or you are a family and a parent trying to help your kid navigate that system, its not that easy to find out, if i go to this school, this is how much its going to cost. Heres the program thats the best program at the school and heres my prospects of getting a job after. That kind of information is not accessible for students today. Do you think its a responsibility both on the side of the school and the students parent going to that school for awareness before you get into this school of what overall this is going to cost in the long run . Certainly. And costs are rising across the board. What we can do is provide better, clearer information to students and families so they can make that decision more easily in addition to taking on policies that tamp down costs and relieve debt. Providing that information in a clear way is going to help students and family make those better decisions and providing some accountability to schools to provide quality programs, to provide that information is critical as well. Your group arose out of the 2010 debate out of the Affordable Care act. Thats right. When you look back, obviously its the law. In terms of where millennials are in the affordability of health care, do you look at that law as a success or failure . Its absolutely been a success for young people. When we looked back at the uninsurance rates for young adults before the aca, they were quite high. The highest uninsurance rates for young people versus other age groups. Young people are also the most low income, so when you are thinking and talking about things like Medicaid Expansion or these tax credits, theyll disproportionately fall to young people because they have lower incomes. Theyre going to be able to access some of those benefits as they are leaving school with a debt. Having access to those tax credits is incredibly helpful. Also the provision to stay on your plan until youre 26 is one of the most popular provisions that provides some sort of leeway for people trying to figure ot where their next job is after they leave school. If theyre trying to start a business and they dont have access to Health Insurance through a new startup, being able to stay on your parents plan where youre figuring out your life is critical. Can you think any of lessons you learn over that debate that you can apply to College Affordability and reducing Student Loan Debt . Providing really clear data and information and also the perspective of young people themselves was something we brought to that debate during the aca conversation. So, for example, we took our name young invincibles from the debate around, do young people just think theyre invincible. And we took a tongue in cheek approach. When we talked to young people, most people said they wanted coverage if they could fund an affordable option. We had about 15 with chronic conditions. A lot of young people who need preventative benefits and we had a lot of young people who are low income. Wages have dropped considerably for young people, more so than other generations. Being able to access and afford health care was really difficult and when were talking about the kind of Health Care Access you have at a job its much different for this generation. Young people are much less likely to have an offer of Health Insurance at their job than an older worker. And thats dropped across the board over the last 10 years, last 20 years. For young people its dropped even more. They were facing a situation where they didnt have an offer of insurance. They were facing issues with wages, et cetera. To be able to provide that story and show what was going on with young people was critical. Same thing with student debt. We need to show whats going on for this generation that is very different than it used to be. Here is some of whats going on. We have callers wait, some who have Student Loans. Lake station, indiana. Arian. How much Student Loan Debt do you have . Caller a lot. I just completed my masters degree in education so i took on quite a bit more because my bachelors degree did not seem to be enough to really get a paying job. I work for the state of indian Athe Department of corrections and was laid off in 2010 when the economy tanked. So i went back to school. It seemed to be my best option. Were seeing a lot of situations where young people are facing high unemployment lev levels, dropping wages. And to your point, the more education you get, the higher your wages are, even though we arent seeing huge increases in wages but still a premium on getting that extra degree. Its something were seeing a lot of young people thinking about. Shelbiville, indiana. Amy is on the line with no Student Loans. Have you finished up your education . Caller well, yes, i went to college and law school in the 70s and early 80s with no Student Loans or anything. And back then my college, mt. Vernon college in washington, d. C. , was 4500 a year. And now it is 35,000 a year. Anyway, but thats not what i was calling about. My daughter tried to get a student loan for her Nursing School in chicago, and all she wanted was books. She and her husband, he makes good money and they had their apartment and cars and everything, but on the website or whatever it was that she was having to fill it out, they it was encouraging her to borrow all this other money for rent, for groceries, for whatever the standard of living is for the chicago area. And do you know if that was a private or public government student loan that was encouraging her to take out more . Caller im not sure. Are there different ones . Isnt there just one major website you go to . But anyway, she had to like find out where to click or call, i think, to tell them that all she wanted was 4,000 and not 30,000. And im concerned that some kids are trying to are borrowing the maximum amount that they really dont need because they can live at home or get an apartment and share with two or three roommates, and they dont need that huge amount each year. But they are so enticed to borrow it, that they do end up with huge Student Loans after they get out. Appreciate you sharing that story. Any thoughts . First to go back to some of the changes since going to school in the 60s and 70s. Tuition levels were much lower. Probably cost her about onethird to go to school as when i did and i went to a Public College. I graduated in 2007 and it cost me about 6700 a year. I went to ucla. That tuition has doubled. Its now at 13,000. Its a state school. So seen huge increases across the board. The question about your daughter, if shes looking at private versus federal option. Sometimes private loans can have higher Interest Rates and can also have lack some of the Consumer Protections some of the federal loans have. Making sure she has a good sense of what shes take og is critical. Dearborn, michigan. Having paid off her Student Loans. Well hear from sandra. Go ahead. Caller good morning. I paid off my Student Loans 40 years ago, and they were minimal. I paid my own way through school. I lived on my own part of the time. Lived with my parents part of the time but went to local schools except for my Year Abroad Program in spain. And im thinking why does everybody think they have to go to college in the first place . Theres trade schools. There are other ways. They need to work in their parents business or do Something Else. Can i ask you why did you think you needed to go to college in the first place, if you dont mind my asking. Caller first i worked for ten years in the sectarial field and decided thats not what i wanted to do. By the time i decided to college i was orlanlder and decided i wd a different job. A lot of kids are unprepared to go to college mentally and emotionally and i dont think they should be at college at the time. You see what takes place on the Florida Spring break, the behavior of those people isnt serious, and they act like they are entitled to all the bad behavior that they participate in. But at the same time, thats an indicator of are they really ready to go to college in the first place. Thanks for your call. Any thoughts on her experience . Its interesting when you look at some of the ways the economy has changed over the last couple of decades. By 2020, about 65 of jobs are going to require some sort of postsecondary degree. Doesnt have to be a fouryear degree. Associates certificate, et cetera. But there is an increasing demand for skills education. So certainly not everyone might want to go to college but providing a pathway for everyone to afford going to college is critical. Not just for personal, individual, Financial Health but also for the economy. And also were seeing a rise in nontraditional students. Folks thats are working, folks that have families and are going back to school. Todays student is from a diverse background at a variety of ages. Were talking about student debt and College Affordability. The College Affordability crisis was the lead editorial yesterday in the new york times. This is clintons plan to reduce College Costs for students by giving grants to states and colleges and allowing borrowers to refinance their Student Loans. It would reward states that agree to spend more money on Higher Education. It does not say what kind of costs should be lowered. She spoke about the plan the other day. Heres a look. Under the new college compact, no student should have to borrow to pay tuition at a Public College or university. Schools will have to control their costs and show more accountability to their students. No more 42 increases over ten years, way above the rate of inflation of anything else. States will have to meet their obligation to invest in higher educati education. The federal government will increase its investment in education and will not profit any longer off of student loas. S and everyone, everyone who already has student debt will be able to refinance it at lower rates. What to do with student debt. Theres a big chunk of it in terms of affordability. You went to ucla. Its up to the state in terms of making those schools affordable. Certainly the states have a huge role in the ways in which our Higher Education systems are financed. Weve seen since the recession and particularly before that, a disinvestment in Higher Education budgets. 47 states have not reinvested since that dropoff. As a result, most student goes to Public Colleges. You are seeing states having a huge role in sort of the debt loads that students are taking on. Are there a couple of states getting it right in your view . North dakota is one of them. Also some states that are i think its very state to state. I think if you go to student impact project. Org we do a state by state analysis and look in depth on how states are investing because its, again, like this process issue, theres a lot going on. Its both what youre investing in your Higher Education budget that impacts tuition and what youre investing in your state aid programs. A lot of states have active state aid programs. So aid thats going to low income programs. Cal grant, the texas grant. So thats an important metric to look at as well. Lets hear from waldorf, maryland. Welcome to washington journal. Caller hi. Good morning. Thank you to cspan. I have plenty of student debt. I finished my bachelors, and i was able to not have any loans from my bachelors, but i did for my masters and for my ph. D. In pharmacology. I didnt have to take any school loans for that either. I work at a Community College, and one of the trends we see currently is, of course, students going to Community Colleges to prevent having those exo exorbitant school loans. And Community Colleges are now playing a much larger role in education. And theyre not theyre no longer for lowincome individuals. And a Community College is actually very Important Institution institutions. Theyre not as they have a different view now. I think theres a different view in america of Community Colleges and education. The loans certainly are reduced because, of course, the price is much, much more affordable for parents and for students. And then students fouryear colleges sometime after they finish the Community College. So i had also a question for your guest. What controls the price of that schools ask for for tuition . What garners that . What regulates that . Thanks for your question. If you are going to if you are talking about a Public School youre talking about what the state budgets are putting into Higher Education. Often thats set by the board of regents or whoever might be overseeing setting those tuition and fees. If you are going to a private college, its going to be up to the institution. At a forprofit school, similarly. To your point on the Community College, thats exactly right. Community colleges are a critical part of the Higher Education system. 65 of jobs are going to require post secondary degree. That includes a Community College degree. Certainly Associates Degree is a big part of that. Welcome to billy who also has Student Loan Debt. How much do you owe . Caller originally 10,000. Back in 2002, i went to a school they advertise on television which i believe they are phony baloney schools. I took out a loan to the National School of technology, and the School Closed halfway through my course. I didnt get a degree or anything like that. And i was told by a person in the office that the money is paid up front, but for the loan and that. I was told off the cuff that the school actually hopes that the student drops out because theyve already got their money and a student just takes up the space. Ive got it down to 3,086. And i was wondering, is there any way or any recourse against that considering it was paid through the student loan. And when did thank you for taking my call start because it takes up a lot of space on the call and ill listen to your answer. I guess people have been saying that for as long as weve been holding on air conversations here at cspan. Jen, your thoughts. Im not familiar with the institution you went to. Weve seen a rise in for profit colleges. They tend to cost more money than Public Colleges. Were seeing a lot of students coming out with larger amounts of debt and higher default rates than other schools. So i think part of the conversation is around how do we ensure that schools across the board and some of these forprofit schools which are failing now are actually held accountable in providing quality programs to students and how do we provide the information up front so that people can make decisions when they see an advertisement to say, what is the school going to provide for me. What is the return on that investment going to that school . And be able to make those decisions. To new jersey. Peter doesnt have any Student Loans. How did you do it, peter . Youre on the air. Caller i would like to ask jen a question. My nephew went to a school, and he its 28,000 that he owes. Me and my mother my mother and i are thinking of paying that off for him. So i was wondering, like what are the legal dynamics of it. Like hes saying hes going to pay us back but we arent really that concerned about it. So i was wondering, he says, my nephew says hell draw up a contract, et cetera, and its so the 28,000, like, you know, things like gift taxes and sort of like you know, all sorts of shenanigans. I was wondering what is the proper way to handle this . Should we i think we got the question. Thank you. Its hard for me to know the details of exactly whats going on there. I would suggest talking to a lawyer or someone that can help you with some of those details. If you go to young invincibles. Org we have resources on paying back your Student Loans, what kind of options you have, what sorts of repayment plans that exist out there. There are a lot of different kinds of repayment plans that different folks will qualify for such as incomebased repayment. Paying back based off your income not total debt load. There are some resources to check out. We showed 1. 2 trillion is the total in Student Loan Debt. I think it was 8 million out of the 40 million currently Holding Student loan debt are in default. Whats the average former student hold in Student Loan Debt . Its hard to say what the average former student holds. Today when someone who graduates from college with debt leaves campus, that average debt load is around 30,000. Obviously, its going to vary. Someone who is leaving with a masters or law degree are going to have higher debt levels. Its going to depend on where you went to school and what you took on. Bachelors degree, average debt. How much of an income does that take up . Thats also a tough question because there are so many variables at play. For example, somebody who enrolls in an incomebased repayment plan may be able to lower their Monthly Payments to and probably paid over a longer period of time but be able to lower them as theyre trying to regain their financial foothold and find out where their next job is. We can look at some trends and major financial purchases to see some of the impact that we might be having. The fed put out a study that looked at rates amongst young people and young people of student debt were less likely to purchase a home than those without student debt. Why used to see it be the often because if you had a student debt it meant you had a College Degree and your income was higher. We certainly hear all the time anecdotally, i puft off getting married or buying a car, starting a business. Some of that data is starting to come out as well. Lets get back to our calls. Hes paid off his Student Loans. Caller jen, you are an inspiration to me. I grew up in a very large family. My mother worked my whole life and it took a toll on us six kids. I was lucky. I got a ged because i was i didnt make it out of the eighth grade. I got a ged. Went to the university of maryland, and i didnt realize until 2002 when i graduated in my 30s that i suffer from a very serious cognitive brain disorder. And it was just gods grace that i made it through college at the university of maryland. Since then ive been taking care of ailing family members. I want to give a shoutout to all those who did go and get a degree and that are doing things that i call it gods work. We dont also get to pick and choose what we do. Id like to be out there hustli hustlingbustling, but im taking care of my brother and sister who are both chronically ill. I want to encourage more young people to get involved. And elizabeth warren, i saw her stuff on youtube. Shes the most sincere person. I think clinton has borrowed her ideal. The wealthy really need to start paying more. I like this idea of giving more breaks on the debt load and getting more balance in our society. I think that we can see with trump thing that were really out of balance. And its going to continue until we fix it. Thanks for your call. Sorry sohear about some of the things going on with your family. Millennials are often caregivers either to kids or members of their family and so as were thinking about some of the economic challenges that people are facing when they leave school, often its taking care of family as they are trying to figure out all these other financial challenges. You talked about your own college education, ucla. You also went to law school. Did you take out Student Loans for that . I did. I took out debt for law school. And i think looking at some of the challenges that were facing and that folks face when they leave undergrad with debt versus grad school with debt is an important distinction. When you leave a fouryear campus with debt versus a law school debt, you have different job options, et cetera. So when were talking about the amount of debt, kinds of debt, levels, its um portent to talk about a twoyear degree, fouryear degree, grad degree, et cetera. The caller talked a little bit about Hillary Clinton and donald trump and elizabeth warren. Some of the views of the candidates theyve called here, lincoln chafee. Calls for increasing government funding for Higher Education. Also Hillary Clinton. We talked about her plan earlier. Using Government Intervention to ease the debt. Tuitionfree college also a position of Bernie Sanders. Jim webb, his official position is student loan is Holding People back. Jeb bush is getti inting studen through School Faster and incentivizing colleges to drive down costs. And marco rubio talked about his student right to know before you go program. He discussed that recently. We need to transform traditional Higher Education as well. We can no longer afford to graduate people from school with loans and degrees that do not lead to jobs. And thats why i believe before any of our young people take out Student Loans that school has to tell you how much you can expect to make when you graduate from that degree from that school so people can decide whether its worth borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to major in basket weaves. Marco rubio talked about his knowing before you go. How realistuc is it for a student before they get into a university to have a really good idea of where theyre going to end up in terms of a year at the end of the four years . Its tough. And its tough when a student gets their financial award letter. It can be tough to figure ot if you are being offered a grant or loan. Some of those can be really unclear. Were talking about a lot of students who are first generation. A grant being you dont pay that back. And a loan being you do. Providing that clear information. Even filling out the fafsa, which is what you fill out to get access to some of that aid. It needs to be simp li feud. Its providing a Clear Pathway to what its going to cost, whats kind of aid you might have and loans you are being offered. And providing information about a school or program thats going to provide you with information you need. We dont have some of that data right now. What kind of jobs are people getting after they go to this program or school . That information is not out there in a way thats easy to access. Lets get back to callers. Cranford, new jersey. Ben has also paid off his student debt. Caller hi. How are you . Fine, thanks. Caller i guess my question is from that 65 of workers are going to need to have a College Degree. I was wondering if thats a good thing or matter of potential inflation. In the past it was common for professors just to have a bachelors degree and now it seems like everybody requires some sort of masters degree to even start in the field and whether theres a way to break from the model where an 18yearold has to commit to a fouryear degree to learn six or seven skills to start his job rather than working and getting degrees as he goes on. So the 65 number does include twoyear degrees, certificates, as well as fouryear degrees. To your point, theres a lot that can be done for employers to better define what kind of skills they need for certain jobs. And to work, for example, with their local Community College to provide a program thats actually going to really train someone in a skill thats going to be useful locally. Next we go to leesburg, virginia. Steven also has student loan. How much do you owe . Caller hey, how are you . Make sure you mute your radio or television. Go ahead with your comment. Theres a couple of things. I listened to the marco rubio sound bite regarding schools needing to communicate to students what they can expect to earn. That seems like its a bit of a personal accountability issue. With the internet, i can hop on the internet and find out what i can expect to make in a given profession over a sub set of time. And for if were loaning someone money to do that. So that almost sounds to me like you are putting somebody in a position where you dont even expect them to be able to pay off the loan, yet you are loaning them money. So, too, the fact, in this country, its so easy to get a student loan that colleges are charging more and more and more for tuition, but then its not easy to get a job after school, so its harder to pay off that loan and exorbitant tuition. I think when were looking at providing someone with the koond of information to make a decision we dont have a very tra transparent system. You may be able to google what are jobs growing in my field. A variety of different ways to do that. It can be difficult to figure out whats a good source of information, whats going on. Whats more difficult is to figure out, well, which programs or which schools near me or where i might be thinking of going are going to give me the degree that i need to be able to get a job in that field. That Clear Pathway can be difficult to ascertain for a student and family. On his point about easy Student Loans or availability of Student Loans driving up the costs of college, is there a correlation . Weve seen states Higher Education budgets are going down and thats driving most of whats going on here. As well as actually we have student enrollments going up. More students are going to school so youd need to be investing to make sure you have your purse student investment on the state level increasing as well. A couple of quick reactions on twitter. This one saying young love to talk about fairness. Fair to make others pay for your stuff and give you free stuff. So many young people supported obama whose policies are destroying their future and spent money on education wasted, no critical thinking. And why are millennials less socially active in their own interests . Why are they not activists for Affordable College . So we actually see a lot of young people turning out on this issue. So when we work with we have offices across the cannot. We work with folks to really work with students to figure out whats going on in their state. Why costs are rising. Whats going on with their student debt. Young people are vocal on this issue. They really are because its something thats really impacting their daytoday lives. And they are vocal enough this will be an important issue when they cast their ballot for president next year . Its certainly an issue that young people will define as one of the top economic priorities is College Affordability. Were joseph, good morning. Go ahead. Yes, how are you doing. Thanks for taking my call. I wanted to talk about what schools are doing also to the students. Myself, im a veteran. I went to school. Im a first generational graduate in my family. Now i have about 60,000 in Student Loan Debt. I just had my first little baby, and its hard. Over 500 a month payment that we have to pay, and with work and stuff, the schools dont allow you to really know what youre going to get into after your degree. Its all presumptual. And once you start the schools they dont allow you to transfer. You try transferring, they make you pretty much start all over. Its a real burden to the American People and to myself. Im trying to do the right thing. 500 payment for something thats just starting and work is so hard. How do we do this, and do you have any suggestions for us . Its particularly we hear a lot from young veterans about some of the challenges they are facing and from a lot of parents. You mentioned you are a parent. About 25 of all students are parents today. If youve already left school and you are facing high Monthly Payments, check out the kind of repayment options that may be available. Being able to pay based off of your income and that way you might be able to see some relief there. Go to young invincibles. Org we have some information there. We were talking about the average debt per class. The wall street journal has a chart called head of the class where the average debt per borrow is. Going back to 93, the average debt about 10,000 for somebody in the class of 93, College Class of 93 up to todays coordinate for graduating class this year, graduating in 2015 of 35,000 average debt. One more call here. Jason in hyattsville, maryland. Jason does not have any Student Loans. Your thoughts for jen mishory. Caller good morning. Yeah, my thoughts are that it would be what are parents doing if they are not looking ot for the cost of educating their children . I think that more parents to keep as many kids keep kids from needing to take out loans. Parents, please do right by your kids and as they are born, as they get a Social Security number, get with these good Mutual Fund Companies and start a uniform gift to minors act, kind of contribution for 50, 100 a month, just get something started and start it very early so that you are looking out for your own kids, and thats one of the best gifts you can give them. Appreciate your comments. Any final thoughts . Yeah, i think as we look at whats happened over the last couple of decades, since the great recession, a lot of families lost a lot of Household Wealth during the great recession. Its become increasingly difficult for households as a whole to provide education for their kids and to help them make those payments. So to your point, this is a family issue. Its an issue that is particularly impacting millennials but certainly a family issue as well. Jen mishori, executive director of young invincibles. Thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me. More ahead as we look at our spotlight on magazine series on washington journal. We talk to mark perry who will be talking about his recent article in Politico Magazine on pentagon infighting on how to combat chinese aggression. This saturday this sunday night on q a, institute for policy studies fellow and antiwar activist Phyllis Bennis on u. S. Foreign war policy since 9 11, the recent negotiations with iran and the war on terrorism. Who is isis . What are their origins . What do they snbl why are they so violent . All of those questions are important and i address them in the book. Whats more important in some ways is what is the u. S. Policy regarding isis . Why isnt it working . Can we really go to war against terrorism . Are we just doing the war wrong, or is it wrong to say there should be a war against terrorism at all . I think those are the questions that in some ways are the most important and will be the most useful. Sunday night at 8 00 eastern and pacific on cspans q a. With the senate in its august break well feature book tv programming weeknights in primetime on cspan 2 starting at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. For the weekends, here are a few book tv special programs. Saturday august 22nd, live from jackson, mississippi, for the mississippi book festival beginning at 11 30 a. M. Eastern with discussions on harper lee, civil rights and the civil war. On saturday, september 5th, were live from our Nations Capital for the 15th annual National Book festival followed on sunday with our live in Depth Program with former second lady and senior fellow at the American Enterprise institute, lynne cheney. Look tv on cspan 2. Television for serious readerson washington journal continues. Next well take up our spotlight on magazine series. This week focus og a Politico Magazine article by contributor mark perry. The pentagons fight over fighting china about some of the political pentagon infighting over the best way to combat china. Mark perry is with us on washington journal. What prompted you to write the article . This is kind of a below the radar in washington terms real fight between the services, army, navy, air force. I began my career as a journalist looking at that fight. My first book is called four stars on the joint chiefs of staff and budget infighting and strategies. I thought it would be time to return to that. The new doctrine that doctrines how the u. S. Will fight in the future was a real fight. An interesting one. This air sea doctrine. What does it cover . Its a concept developed by the air force and navy to respond to threats from area of denial and weapons that are deployed by countries like china and iran. And its a concept thats a post war on terrorism concept that really focuses on the strength of the army or rather that the air force and navy have together in a developed and jointness that will probably govern that will undoubtedly govern our military strategy in the future. Its a complex doctrine but one that focuses on real assets and strengths the u. S. Military has. Your article in politico on china begins back in the 1990s. And the desert storm. I want to read a little bit. At first its hard to see Operation Desert Storm as anything less than an unparalleled American Military victory. Uss missouri began to forcibly remove iraqi from kuwait in the Early Morning hours of january 1991. You begin there and take wrus in the article and why is that important . I begun there because the navy and air force in this first Operation Desert Storm, the first persian gulf war, their access to the persian gulf and air over iraq was absolutely uncontested. No antiaircraft capabilities on the part of iraq, no antinavy capabilities. So a group of defense sat back and thought about this victory and thought, what if there had been antiaccess and antidenial weapons. What if we had a hard time going into the persian gulf and a hard time in the air over iraq. Would we have beenable to counter the threats and what would that force look like . What kind of weapons would we have to develop in an enemy that was a lot stronger than iraq. And thats where air sea battle began. The air force and navy looking at the kinds of weapons theyd need if they were to face an enemy more robust than saddam husseins almost nonxuftent air force and navy. Why does china rise up to the top of that list . China was looking at the same war and was very frightened of american dominance. And their military thinkers at their chief military institute began to develop antiaccess and antidenial weapons. Those weapons that would deny the u. S. Access to the waters over china and deny the u. S. Air force access to the water over china in any future confluctuic. Theres a loser in this. One of the forces loses in this. Tell us about that. The air force and navy cooperated early on to develop the systems that would be needed for any future conflict. They set up an office to do this. It had 14 offices in it. Air force, navy and one army officer. This was viewed as an air force navy show. It caused real disquiet among army Senior Officers who attacked the doctrine and who saw it as a budget grab on the part of the navy and air force. And over a period of, what is it now, 20 years, the army fought the doctrine, the air sea battle doctrine time after time. Acuesed the air force and navy of doing a budget grab and only very recently decided to embrace the doctrine because they didnt have a choice. Its become american policy. You write about ray odierno. The resentment gave rise to odiernos view that his service was fighting a threefront war. One in afghanistan gans the taliban, another in ooh rack against the insergeaurgency and another in washington. Theres always tension among the Service Heads but this was on a different level. Odierno looked at his colleagues as plotting against him. The army really resented the air force and navy. The earliest papers on the air sea battle doctrine were classified. This is still viewed in the army as a plot against them. A plot to cut into their budget members and a plot to the way the u. S. Traditionally has operated its war time strategies. Well be covering one of the final news conferences of the chief of staff, army chief ray odierno talking about the u. S. Army today. Look for it live on cspan 2 at 1 00 p. M. Eastern. Welcome your calls and conversations with mark perry on his Politico Magazine article on china and some of the political and military infighting at the pentagon. Lets hear from mitchell, indiana. Eddie is up first on our democrats line. Caller hi. I just got a couple of comments. I keep hearing things, paid for commercials by the u. S. Army or u. S. Navy. The u. S. Citizens pay for that. The army or navy does not. And, guys, if we quit borrowing money from china, theyd respect us more. We wouldnt be a debtor nation. Wed just be a lot better over there in china. Thank you, sir. Bye. My only comment is that youre absolutely right. Taxpayer money pays for everything in the pentagon. All the weapon s systems. Army, coast guard, navy. Youre right. I wont comment on the debt to china except to say our military is really the preeminent military power in the world. And if we were to have a current military conventional conflict with china it would be difficult, ugly and bloody, but no question in my mind that our air force and navy are preempent in. Weve shown this in a number of instances over the last 20 years. And its true weve had problems in iraq and afghanistan, but those werent primarily air force and navy wars. Any kind of standoff with a maritime or air power, i dont think theres any question of who would win. Is the ultimate result of this air sea battle plan, the u. S. Approach to it would be largely an air and sea campaign. If there were to be a conflict with china. And what about chinas view in terms of what they are putting their resources. How does their construction, for example, of these artificial islands in the south china sea, give us an indication of what their battle plans may be . They have its no secret to us theyve placed a lot more of their budgetary resources for the years to come into a large array of cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, surveillance and intelligence, cyberwarfare capabilities. Everything that is exactly in the air sea battle plan. Less focus on Ground Troops in china, too . Absolutely. And more money given to what they view as the future of warfare which is the defense of their home waters which is why we have air sea battle. Previously mentioned the budget and the article accompanied by a chart on the way the budget has gone since going back to the Eisenhower Administration all the way to recent years, the surge in the budget during the wars in afghanistan and iraq. Although a dropoff in the other forces, the army and navy tailing off, a precipitous drop off in the army budget. Is that because of a redetection of troops in the army . Thats right. Weve gone from manpower untensive army during ooh rack and afghanistan deployments and now its being slowly cut back. The numbers that were going to see about 2017 is an army that has probably 450,000 soldiers. Thats a cut of 75,000 to 100,000 during what weve seen at the time of the surge. Lets go to marshall, texas, democrats line. Caller yes, i have a comment regarding chinese relations with america. For the past few administrations in the white house, theyve pretty much ignored the threat that being in debt to china has really caused the United States. They boycott us, but we seem to be addicted to their products. And while they are making money off us, they are also our ideological enemy and they have the military capability, if not to destroy the United States with ballistic icbms, they have the capability to severely cripple us so if they had an ally in north korea or even worse, russia, we could very well lose a war of a defensive posture. Anyway, thats all i had to say. Thank you. Let me say that one of the and i think its an important point. One of the really controversial aspects of air sea battle is it seems to single out china as a future enemy. And it made members of congress who studied the doctrine very uncomfortable. It was a number of members of congress criticized the military of purposely trying to pick a fight with china. This wasnt geared to china even though a major study on air sea battle mentioned chinese antiaccess and antidenial weapons, no less than 150 times. The air force and navy said we have to plan for every contungeency, and china is it. That aside, we have constant talks with the Chinese Military. We understand them very well. Theres always conferring on issues. And it seems to me that a war a major war with china is really very unlikely at this time. And the reason the military says they develop air sea battle is they have to plan for every contingency, including a remote contingency. Certainly the chinese are the one nation in the world that could probably challenge us militarily across every war domain. Mark perrys Politico Magazine article is about pentagon infighting over plans for defensive plans and military plans against china. We welcome your calls and questions. 2027488000 for democrats and 2027488002 for independences. Send us a tweet cspanwj. Matt is in beverly, massachusetts. Caller thanks for taking my call. I wanted to momentarily mention that china debt thing is they only hold 7. 5 of our outstanding debt. Thats not really a conversation t topic. I wonder if the nasa edge we have renders some of this pentagon finishunding moot beca everything goes through satellite, so maybe thats a little bit of a turf war in a cyberworld. Well, certainly the caller is right. The recent focus in one of the major focuses of air sea battle has been on cyberwarfare. And weve seen from recent comments the secretary of state just how much of a threat this is viewed. Right. By not just the pentagon but the entire u. S. Government. You know, optimally, and this is a little speculation, but ive heard it from the military, one of the first things you might do in any future war is just to turn off their weapons systems. You know, this is a highly electronic, digital, computerized battlefield now and battle space. Figuring out how to do that, how to interject yourself in an enemys networks and to just turn off their weapons is an interesting prospect. And its not one thats lost on the pentagon. And thats what part of air sea battle is. A major component is. It sounds simple. Its not simple. Takes a lot of work and its being developed all the time, being worked on all the time by the u. S. Military. We can assume the chinese and others are trying to do the same. U. S. Decides to retaliate against chinese hacking. Whats the current either pentagon or more broadly the administration approach to combating hacking that they are pretty certain comes from china . They are working on theyre working on this 24 hours a day, all the time. The programs they developed are highly qualified. Like the stepanek program against Iranian Nuclear program. Right. Whats interesting about the current controversy of chinese hacking, is no one in the current government needs seeming to admit and no one has been asked quite bluntly, dont we do it to them . Im sure we do. Joe in west plains, missouri. Welcome, joe, on our republican line. Caller good morning. Morning. Morning. Caller mr. Perry, i have two points. First of all, i think china would beat the piss out of us in a conventional war because theyve got more men and they have a fervor for fighting. Second of all, within the last year, year and a half, i have seen obama on television say, he wants to cut the military back so far, so we cant start any more silly wars. Please comment on both of my points. Thank you. I will. I dont think youre right about the first point. I dont think they would beat us. Despite the fact that youre quite right, that they certainly have more personnel. But the whole point is air sea battle is we would use highly technical weapon symptoms to counter their personnel, and we would never deploy i dont think. I think it would be odd for us to deploy land troops. Former secretary gates has warned against it. There isnt much appetite in congress or here in the administration for such a conflict. And your second point, there are a lot of people blaming the Obama Administration for cutting the defense budget, but its under sequestration now. There are automatic cuts for the defense budget. And there are redundancy among the services that are huge wastes of money that air sea battle. I dont think the cuts are fatal to american readiness. If they were, sequestration would be at an end and the budget for the military would increase. We might see that at some point. But right now, thats not what were operating under. Cottage grove, oregon, is next up for mark perry, whose article in Politico Magazine, available at politico. Com. Caller firsttime caller to cspan. Ive watched for quite a while. Glad to have you with us. Caller one thing i hear about is reduction in force in army but we dont hear about the increase in Contractor Services that offset a lot of that. And i question, frankly, whether thats always been official to the military. I would like to hear the guests comment about that. Contract to services is new to me in my lifetime. Prior to the second iraq war, we never hired out or finding our security, intelligence capabilities arent cable for contractors and i generally think its a bad idea. Americas wars ought to be fought by americas men and women in uniform. And i think that there is a strong sense, especially in the army, that contracting out conflict is not the way to go. They look at themselves as the premiere American Military force. And they would like to cut back military contract or security contract usage. I think thats a general tendency across the board and reflecting pentagon thinking. Welcome to your comments on the pentagons infighting our over china policy, our china strategy at twitter hand handle cspanwsj. This is the question, what does the pentagon plan to do with counter the chinese Island Strategy . That we talked about earlier. I think the Obama Administration is being very careful in handling this chinese. And i think this is a challenge, very carefully and diplomatically. There is no appetite in the u. S. Government or the military for a confrontation on the high seas with china, despite the fact we would clearly win one. We would rather that this challenge be met diplomatically. I think the Obama Administration has made it very clear that there is a price to pay. China has a price to pay for this strategy. The price is they lose the confidence of their asian neighbors and United States has gained real support and assets in southeast asia, among very unlikely allies, including, i might say, vietnam, who view the chinese very skeptically, in this recent move skeptically. And recent move inside the japan for the Chinese Defense budget. I think were going to see more of that as a response to what many view as a real reckless policy. Are pentagon officials actively seeking relationships with the likes of vietnam and other Southeast Asian nation . Certainly weve increased our military cooperation. Begun talks with many of these in the case of vietnam it would be considered former enemies. And that will increase. Weve also strengthened our relationship with our traditional Southeast Asian allies, including australia. And most recently and maneuvering with them and conducting war games with them, which i think is something that worries the chinese. You mentioned the japanese. Whats behind their motivation to change their defense posture, regarding china . I think there is a general worry in japan about the possibility of chinese expansionism. There is a growth in the Chinese Military budget. Its not anything theyre spending on the military doesnt reach anything like our spending on our military. Were still the preeminent power. But japan, i think, realizes it has to rely not just on the United States, but on its own military power in any future conflict. So, theres a strong move in japan for that. 2027488001 for conversation with mark perry, republicans. Democrats is 2027488003. Charlotte, north carolina, tim, go ahead. Caller yeah. I just wanted to make two quick comments and then ask a quick question. Japan holds more debt than china does, per se. And also would australia, taiwan, japan, all the money we put into japan, regarding their coast over the year, have been billion and billion dollars, would they not have been in the sea campaign to help our military because theyre still our allies, as far as i know, and they really owe america a lot as far as, you know, us helping guard their coastline. So, wouldnt they be allillies h us in the sea campaign . I think youre exactly right. They would be allies with us in the sea campaign. But i would add this cautionary note. While australia has a very capable military, as its proven over the years, and has a very capable navy, nothing really compares with the kinds of assets we can bring. We have ten aircraft, almost 11 aircraft barrier battle groups. We can put three in the waters off taiwan within three months. China is just now really developing its air sea capability and has one aircraft carrier. So, while we would welcome any help the alliances that we have in the pacific, while we would welcome any help they might be able to give us, were still really the preimminent naval and air power. Chesterfield, virginia, democrat line, chris, hi there. Hi, chris. Youre on the air. Chesterfield, virginia. Well go to charlie whos in mineola, new york, on the independent line. Charlie, hi. Caller thank you for letting me talk. I think we need to challenge the idea that we need to go to war with china. We seem to have distorted idea in the military of this with this weve seen to have this distorted idea of social way of winning. We have to take over the world. You know, social darwin yanism is not based on science or darwin or anyone else. I think its distorted idea. And i think theres options in the world. Theres options. We dont need to go to war. Well, youre not the first one, obviously, to say this. Im not demeaning what youre saying at all. Members of the congress have said the same thing. Why are we out there with this new doctrine that seems to pick a fight with china . I dont want to leave you with the impression that the army, navy, air force, marine corps of the United States want to have a war with china. We do not. Theres no appetite for con nikt with china. When i bring this up to with army, air force and Navy Officers about air sea battle, they say, listen, our job is to prepare for every contingency, every possible challenge, thats why we developed air sea battle. You should not look at it as the military wanting a conflict. There is no appetite in the military for a conflict, particularly in the wake of the real difficulties we have had and are continuing to have in iraq and afghanistan. Its not military moves that are making news from china. Its the economic news. The headline in