For the people responsible lose their job. Before they can be considered killed three needed validated procedure. I have been acknowledged in hindsight this organism and the vulnerability you should have done this before. The reality the federal government has not known what constitutes a dead anthrax until this came up . In the laboratory see if there is gross. I yelled back. Mr. Chairman it is unfortunate that we have to have another hearing like this but there was a quotation in usa today that says the root cause is a lack of accountability. Is installed there reported and i think many of us have expressed frustration not only with the agencies represented here the two agencies subject to the problems, but across government and the veterans administration. That has allowed coverups and though the three people have been fired of of 300,000. That is one of the root causes it is too hard to fire a federal employee. The individuals at the dugway proving ground water their procedures at that facility . I dont have that information it is mostly civilians. Of those which are unionized . Im not sure. Aim appreciating if you have that response have you taken action against any of those . If we do take action you want to make sure it is taken at the right place to make sure a person should be accountable is held accountable. That is nice but how many mistakes are happening right now because there is no accountability . Do you know, today we are not shipping other life agents. You know that. How can you know, . Because the anthrax is so hard to kill. That has been stopped. Anything else . Where are they a other former abilities . Dr. Sosin . How can you be sure we dont have any of other incidents going on like this today . Search and she is hard to provide with the process to insure the stability there is no evidence the materials presumed inactivated are not inactivated we have noted evidence of a signal single event that doesnt mean we dont take this seriously or consider whether additional procedures need to be implemented. This is going on now with respect to anthrax and reconsider in a broader context. For the committee say, walk through the ownership of the different elements. That respects your to agencies. Who owns what part . What parts of you own . But the federal select Agent Program is oversight oversight with the improvements made through execution of this Program Includes screening with the suitability to me as an appropriate facility has Good Laboratory practice to work with the material also the fbi review of personnel reliability it availability will use that to look bad by a security and safety. And a process to detect and respond including the notification of jurisdictions that have these facilities in sight to go in and investigate to identify the people at risk and look at what caused them and as well as the Public Sector institutions . Iraq. Where do you find best practices . Dr. Hassell was talking rug going to the private sector. Where are we finding them today . It is the combination of both i said we go look at the private sector that doesnt happen mermaz a first reaction. The department of defense and nih are outstanding facilities during critical worked these are enhancements where these will have been because of the broad range of practices i do have additional questions i will submit for the record. Mr. Chairman, i appreciate you being here i am sure you are having a blast and insuring your time here but it is frustrating to see what has taken place with those protocols how long does it take to looking into this . It is hard to follow that. Is it the practice of of the dod to send out a death certificate with select agents . It has been. To go long has that been going on . I apologize i am not sure i am not sure how long that is part of the process. I am not sure at what point that was initiated. I can find out. We know what has been building on. Why is it the private lab that found the anthrax not have a death certificate with it . To make it was originally tested they did not see growth. If it is shipped out, you said the practice is to have a death certificate why wasnt there one shipped to the private lab . Demand for that particular operation was a blind test. With anthrax . To read to see if people could detect the presence of was a sweep to identify markers. We knowingly shipped live anthrax . It did not have a death certificate is a you going to be shipped life anthrax to a private lab because it did not have a death certificate . We did not supply the death certificate because they would know what it was. So was there a death certificate . Yes. The originator act dugway performs that test. What is the difference to show that it was live . It was very similar. That is what we are looking at the key differentiator. Who is that . Dr. Sosin . Who is responsible for assuring those procedures that it is dead . Going forward. No. Who was responsible at that time . Whose group was set . Dugway they developed that. Who was over there who default underneath . Who oversees dugway . The army. Narrow it down to help me figure out who a is responsible that chain of command for the death certificate for the procedures that show the agents are true the dead. Ben schaede of command in the laboratory . To find out if it is shipping out to. Though it is over finding of for sure those procedures that the agent is dead . You dont know. Kenny ransom depression dr. Sosin . I cannot. Not specifically. This raises my last question during to the Background Information i could not figure that out. There are so many people that touched this there is no clear line chain of command as a Business Owner you have to be responsible to no one can be fired because no one takes responsibility because no one has responsibility we just assume everyone is doing their job yet to reship out live anthrax and no one takes responsibility for that . You said you would leave or a lock down so it cannot be shipped one tell you declared a line of command and procedures for go right . How long will that take him . The minimum was six months. A minimum . If you agree just find out the players you could put somebody in charge. I have to do scientific studies. We have live amtraks ship domino based responsibility but nobody could answer. It is time for somebody to take responsibility. I yield back. Mr. Chairman maybe i should step back. But completed different than a virus is the spores it is easy to kill the virus. So there is biological agents with what bin issues going on and the concern is might we have that with Something Else like smallpox or whenever . To help the committee differentiate the bacteria to give the confidence level. You use that to penetrate the spore . So the way that you can prove it is dead is to take a sample that you did not make that clear. And to put it in culture for a month and should have been in culture six months is that safe to assume as you did not run their culture test long enough . It grows within todays generally. And if you take Something Like anthrax that could pop up in five months time and somebody is creating a death certificate after two months year are saying it is dead. Im sorry if you put that in the enquirer made it turner in germinates. So in a fertile environment you would expect to see that growth. Guy could pay to differ on this but i see that where it does not grow in one month or two months but then it shows up. I would suggest respectfully that i believe the biggest problem that was sent irradiated with enough intensity so was not killed but to validate it was ted they put it into a culture to see if it would grow if it was in culture 48 hours with the death certificate i can tell you the problem right now it was not in culture long enough. Best practices in industry you will see that batch said in the refrigerator or freezer six months and you will have that spoor six months not 48 hours and if it is in that culture six months it is deader than a door nail to have more assurance and it is different than a virus so i just think some of that confusion is going on because you do the death certificate at the lab after it has been repeated radiated and held in isolation until the culture just has run to say i did not see anything now the entire batches good to go. That is what happened then it was shipped out exempt because it had the death certificate but that is up to the lab decide how long they will grow the culture . At this point the stability testing is a Laboratory Procedure but there will be additional requirements as a result of this incident. That is what i would encourage you to do the problem starts the you do trust the labs to be on the top of their game with past practice but i can assure you best practice in private industry is six months, six months of testing not 48 hours. That is best practice coming out of private industry. I yield back