Transcripts For CSPAN3 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20240622

Veterans, id like to see im a v. A. Provider even if its in my private practice. We should come over and discuss that. Ive been asking and secretary gibson said, imstaff, supplies everything involved would be important to this entire committee, the cost is not just the paper. Dr. Ruiz. Thank you to the chairman and Ranking Member for holding this hearing when brave young men and Women Volunteer to serve in our armed forces, they swear to support and defend the constitutional of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. The Service Members make a promise to their country to all of us to keep us safe and protect our way of life in recognition of that service we promise to care for them when they return. So veterans is served and sacrificed and we must do whatever it takes to hold up our end. Many veterans in my district excluded from the strict requirements ochof the Choice Program dont receive care for what they are authorized because the v. A. Has begun delaying elective care due to the budget short fall and as a physician, i can the tell you that even if a condition arguably does not meet the v. A. s working standards for authorizationing nonchoiced purchase care it may feel painful and very urgent to the patient. Veterans being deprived of health care they earned whether due to unforeseen increases in cost or demand, budget tarry mismanagement at the v. A. Congressional dysfunction, or any other problem outside the veterans control thats completely unacceptable and absolutely critical we stabilize the immediate problem and resume surfing veterans who need Community Care at full capacity prevent any furloughs or facility closures and reform whatever Structural Systems at the v. A. Have failed. You are actively searching for new ways to be able to predict the future needs of veterans. This is a problem due to the success of having 7 million more appointments but as a physician and Public Health expert i understand that you really cant predict to the tee the health needs of a growing population of a system in transition that needs to take risk to identify best practices and understand that some of these practices may fail and therefore we may need to learn from those lessons in order to improve. And your mention before the term management is what this come myth thety has done in the past now youre managing to the requirement and i want to one requirement youre managing to is only one larger piece and complex and whether a veteran gets seen in 30 days is not the same with quality care and respect they need and efficiency of care when they are being seen and thankfully, a lot of veterans rate their care very highly, but so we need to manage to the Veterans Health care needs with efficiency and to the point of measuring how much it cost and efficiency and Percentage Rate of cost due to or the amount of cost due to an increase in 1 of v. A. Care that reflects on the efficiency of the v. A. So i really want to stress those points and my concern here is these claims that were shutting down facilities that its not being and the way its being presented is that youre holding these v. A. s hostage because youre not getting your way and thats absolutely, i know, with the sentiment not true so can you first question can you explain more whats going on in denver and how the this is affecting the care of our veterans in receiving that care and two, one of the concerns is that if you take, if with the this flexibility, which i think its a great idea, if you take money from one pot that you already have for another there is always going to be take aways. So is this a surplus fund is the this what is the take away that is at risk here . The choice care act itself that Congress Approved was to provide care in the community for veterans and there is a 10 billion appropriation that is to expire in three years. What were talking about is care in the community largely there is another half a Million Dollars, half a Million Dollar for hepatitis c drugs. So we would be using money for what it is set aside for, care in the community and that way, you know were using the money that was set aside for, not a new appropriation. Secondly the issue you raised about denver is because we have flexibility of moving money between accounts the accounts that the money came from this fiscal year for denver veterans and and has no enimpact and we got to put that money in the 2016 budget. Budget. Thank you. Yield back. Mr. Costello. Thank you. I would certainly like to associate my comments with those of congresswoman rice and congresswoman ruiz in term it is of frustrations, at least what ill hearing in my district and i want to assure those veterans that i will work at 110 to make sure there is no uninterrupted care for veterans out there and im confident in the leadership. Were going to resolve this so that there is in no way, i want to focus on a couple things that are either in your written testimony or that ive learned that are very very frustrating for me and i want to start with the issue of technology. I want to talk about technology and your use of the term flexibility. So in 2004, the v. A. Received 475 million for their i. T. System. G. A. O. Report comes out and says that there is essentially nothing to show for it. In 2010 congress was going to provide 400 million for another update and the v. A. Pulled the plug on that. You werent around then. I wasnt around then. Its clear in the past the v. A. Identified the need for updated Technology Capacity as well as congress being willing to invest in that. This request relates to the Financial System and to why you have a budget short fall. Sort of what you said in your testimony thus far. But on the issue of flexibility you indicate the quote on page 3, all together over 70 line items are influxble. Freed up they would help us give the v. A. What they deserve. Are you talking about the entire 170 plus billion budget and is that all the line items . Yes, with the choice act weve given the veteran a choice whether they get their care in the v. A. Or outside the v. A. Very simplistically, they cannot be comingled. I got to predict how that veteran makes that choice. Right. Or come back to you each week. I think dr. Ruiz, i get where hes going. Look, the need, you dont always know what the medical need is going to be. I understand there has to be flexibility within a budget to appropriately address the medical needs of the veteran but i also feel that in a budget of 170 billion that if that is itemized among 70 line items 70 line items for 170 billion isnt that many line items and in terms of flexibility, the more money we say oh, here is 700 billion, do what you like with it, the more we get into the issue of 475 million disappearing into an i. T. Budget or oh, that didnt really work out over there and so i dont like the aspect of just shifting things around without there being acontinuebility to congress, i dont think taxpayers we agree with you. If were able to do this, we would Work Together on what are the restrictions and what are the budgets that should be comingled. Comingled. Let me just, next question related to that and youre looking to use choice money and there is and that there is just a reluctance by many in the v. A. To sort of buy in pardon the pun, to the Choice Program. Congress policy not only did we want to offer but we wanted encourage it. Now i feel that because some in the v. A. Since there is money left over and time to institute that legislation we can take it out of the popular programs and shift it elsewhere and again, gets back to the issue of accountability and transparency. You use the term flexibility and i understand why you need it is to be painting too much of a broad brush using the term flexibility or budgeting purpose and lose the accountability we need and havent had and the source of some of the problems that cause us to be here today. Were very much in favor of care in the community and in favor of the Choice Program so if youre, if you or veterans are encountering employees we need to know about it because that would be wrong. I mean, were trying to create a culture where we dont care where the veteran gets care as long as they get great care. Final point here as youre talking about a new i. T. System to better handle budgeting and planning, for my opinion, mismanagement can be very visible, im not suggesting you have mismanagement, it can be visible and not visible and i think on the i. T. Side its easy to mismanage things through the years and not really have any ability for those doing oversight to really know about it. Because its sort of on the planning side behind the scenes. I think moving forward, as youre talking about i presume coming forward with what your needs are going to be for new i. T. System, it has to be thorough, it has to be comprehensive and the ad hawk we need money here and money after and i think it needs to be a comprehensive plan so we have confidence in what youre proposing is going to solve problems and over the long term reduce cost because from a management perspective, you have more transparency and things will be more efficient. I yield back. We agree and would love to have laverne counsel the head of i. T. Come talk. I think shes going to be terrific for us. She has experience as the head of i. D. T for Johnson Johnson and dell. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank you, mr. Secretary, for your service in the army and secretary in this very complicated transition period and we hope it turns out well and well do our best to make sure that it does. My first question has to do with publicprivate partnerships. Secretary gibson mentioned on a june 25th hearing, you and he had spoke about this and youre in favor can i ask you that question, do you feel the va could benefit from Public Private partnerships . One of the five strategies for my v. A. Transformation to the v. A. Is strategic partnerships. We have a leader of the office and yesterday when i was in pittsburgh working in our medical center, there was a wonderful example. I met with the chancellor university of pittsburgh, dean of the medical school. We have a Great Partnership between the medical provider with the university and with the v. A. This is a system omar bradley set up in 1946, 47 to make sure veterans get the best care. Those partnerships are critical to us. Thank you. Mr. Secretary ive looked at this graph that the v. A. Care and Community Short fall and if you divide 7. 6, its clear youre going to miss the target what took so lock given this information or was this not available in what we protected was lower. We, the obligation data was under stated early in the year that reflects the experience. How much of the 3 billion short fall is due to understand casting . I dont think its under forecasting. I think we had anticipated of the care in the community would have gone through the Choice Program and been paid for out of choice dollars appropriated for the program. That program, you know im you know, its a complex program that was as it was structured is, we have pay back on our contract to get it done because no one else in the intusdustry was interested in taking this on and we have business processes that quite frankly need to improvement and were working on those things. So i think that we had a choice, we have a Choice Program that we and you need to get more care in the community for veterans were not waiting for care. We have not been able to get and maybe some of it is cultural but we have not been able to get the number we anticipated. That has not shopped us to be faithful to the intention of Congress Passing the choice which was no veteran should be waiting. So really what were asking for is to be able to use funds that were appropriated for the purchase of care in the community through the Choice Program to pay for care that we purchased in the community that is not through choice but through the normal mechanisms because we have over subscribed to those programs. How soon do you think we could provide that flexibility. Were asking you to do it before you leave in august, so by the end of this month. So it would require it would be passed and signed into law by the end of august or by the end of july. The money has been appropriated so im not an expert on what congress does so i yield to the chairman on that but yes, i assume its some kindof of bill. We would have to authorize the transfer of those dollars out of a finite amount from the Choice Program. Well a painful question. Can you provide a list of the facilities that would be closed if you dont get that money . Or how soon can you provide that list . We have an entire plan together which we can share with you. I would just say that when we run out of money, so we would move fund around between facilities as best we think. Medical services will be the first approachation that runs out. It will affect essentially every facility in the country. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Abraham. Thank you mr. Chairman. Let me i guess, just start big by saying the old adage in business, you can delegate authority, but never responsibility. Mr. Secretary i know you were ceo of a major firm before you came aboard. I would think if you had came to the board of drejters at the 11th hour like my brown indicated, they, too, would be a little incredulous at the shortfall, the lack of vision so to speak. And we dont want to disparage that. We understand that everybody in this room certainly on this committee and yourself and in this room has the veterans best interest at heart and i do believe that. Let me hit it just from the hepatitis c. You and i both know its an insidious disease. I had three Vietnam Veterans come up to me and say that they had yet to receive anything from the va because i understand thats in the pipeline and i do understand that the help titus drug was only approved in 2013. But still saying that that still gives us about a year and three quarters to formulate plans, delegate how this medicine is going to be divvied up so to speak and it hasnt been done yet. Can you give me some indication as to when our Vietnam Veterans, our iraqi, afghanistan veterans can expect some hard data as to if they are at this point of the disease they can get the treatment . Yes. So we of course, those drugs were not approved by the fda when we submitted our budget for i understand that. So we have a plan. Weve had a plan all along for the treatment of hepatitis c. But when will the veteran he or she know that hey, i can get treatment mow. Weve treated over how are you delegating which veteran gets treated and which veteran does not . So you may be getting a little bit over my head in terms of help titus c. Our hepatologists are managing that. We have a severity score, based on whether the veteran has advanced Liver Disease. If you cant answer if you would just give me that information as to how that determination is made, there are blood tests, their bile load, liver biopsy results. Ive treated hundreds if not thousands of hep c cases id be happy to get you the information. Today, weve treated over 20,000 veterans with hepatitis c today. And we continue to treat patients with advanced Liver Disease and patients who can go out into the community, have Choice Program as an option to do that. And secretary, you had that of that 2. 5 to 3 billion that you were anticipating, shortfall, that 500 million of that would be designated for hepatitis c treatment . For the treatment itself . Yes, sir. Okay. I yield back, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you, mr. Secretary, for testifying today. With regard to the medical scribes, elaborate on that part of the program. I know in the private sector these are great private Sector Solutions and i know that the doctor will have more time. Its been proven in the private sector that the doctor will have more time with the patient. I had a town meeting that lasted four hours a couple of weeks ago. People were bringing that up. So, you know you want the doctor to focus on medicine. Elaborate on that program, that pilot program. Well we ive heard a lot of this. Ive been to 195 different va facilities and every one i go to theres a different approach. But we are pretty consistent in the operation of a p. A. C. Team which is a patient care team, a team working with a particular patient. I think what jim was describing is lets pilot the scribe so everybody on that team can be working on the patient and not just entering information into the medical record. I didnt come prepared today to really expect this question. So i will have to take it for the record and get you information about where we are in terms of standing up a pilot program. Okay. Thank you. Any other Innovative Medical Solutions coming from the private sector that youve implemented in the last year . Do you have an adviserry council set up possibly to work in the private sector to get these ideas and make yes, we do. We have believe it or not, we have more than 25 Advisory Councils, but we have two that id like to tell you about. One is our special medical Advisory Council which is the best medical mind, i think some of the best medical mind in the country thats shared by the chairman is john kurlin. John is the chairman of the american medical hospital association. Hes the chief medical officer of hca. Hes also a former undersecretary of health. Theyre providing tremendous leadership. On the on the my va work that were doing the transform va, weve set up an external Advisory Council. We have many doctors that are part of that including toby kos grove who is the head of the cleveland clinic, rich carmona a former Surgeon General and a veteran. But i have to tell you, one of the things theyre bringing is theyre not only bringing their innovations and their ideas, but theyre taking away our innovations. A couple of weeks ago, we published an article that was picked up in medical journals not broadly in the newspaper, about a new monte carlo simulation technique we can use to predict suicide. This is a break through. If we can validate this model of predicting suicide, this will be a break through for the va, but it will also been be a break through for the american public. A lot of what weve seen and you and i have talked about in the past has been innovations that start in the va, part of our 1. 8 billion of Research Spending that you appropriate and we appreciate it that result in positive results for the American People. Here is a copy of the article, mr. Chairman, if youd be willing, id be happy to put it in the record about this break through. And we have more of these breakthroughs coming. We need to get the word out on this Choice Program. A lot of people dont know. I know you sent out a card. What else have you done to get the word out . And then i have another question with regard to access. So weve mailed letters to everybody. Weve mailed now i think three letters totally to everybody. First with their card and then follow up. We have another flyer that weve just developed. We have a website that we have just reengineered. So weve been doing surveys of veterans who use the Choice Program asking them what they think about the program and one of the biggest issues theyve had is with the website and the availability of information. So we now have a redesigned website thats about to go live. It has a live chat on it so that the veteran, while theyre looking, if they cant find the information, they can click the chat button and talk to somebody right then and there. So weve really done a lot. We had a set of outbound phone calls to people initially who were actually waiting for care more than 30 days, so i can contact them about the Choice Program. So weve tried to do a lot of outreach. Sir, were my constituents are having trouble getting access to the program. Describe for the benefit of the constituents, our veterans our heroes, describe the scenario. How would it work . They would call the va for an appointment. Can you describe a real life scenario . Yeah. So theres two benefits under the Choice Program. One is if youre waiting more than 30 days. If youre waiting more than 30 days for an appointment our staff, if you either call in or while youre checking out of clinic and getting a followup appointment, our staff will tell you if you cannot get an appointment within 30 days, that the Choice Program is available to you. They have information that they can hand out to the veteran about the Choice Program. At the moment, we are both booking an appointment for the veteran in the va and offering them a Choice Program and making that resolve to the third party administrator. The veteran can decide which of those two options they want at any time. Were about to chase that program so that what will happen is at the time the veteran asks for an appointment, if we cannot give them aan appointment within 30 days, we will ask them if they want an appointment in the va beyond 30 days or if they would like to go to the community and then our staff will contact the tpa and get an appointment for the patient. We need to do a contract modification to be able to put that program in place, but its coming down the pike. And that should improve i think, the coordination and the level of service. If youre in the 40 mile group what happens today is that the tpas already have your information and you can contact them directly. You dont need to go through the va to get an authorization for care. Sir weve got to make it easier for the veteran. Thats what ive been we totally agree. Thank you very much. I yield back. Members were not going to do a second round of questions. Unless theres one that is just absolutely pressing. With that ms. Brown, youre recognize recognized. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, i want to thank you for holding this hearing. As far as im concerned failure is not an option. Weve heard a lot of discussion today. And i find it well where im coming from, it used to be program owned. Facts, just the facts. And i want people to understand the facts before they walk out that door. Because ive seen a lot of people snapping up pictures and us making different statements. I want you to give us a list of the facts while we are in this emergency situation and why, if we dont act before we go home, were going to have a crisis at the va. Every member needs to understand where we are. And this is not anything new. I mean, youve been saying it from day one. You need flexibility. And we need to give you the flexibility and then we will hold you accountable. But i need to sit up here and act like we dont have 7 million additional veterans coming into the system oh wait a minute 7 million additional appointments and 4 million veterans and we have a Community Program that youve taken money for from and used and you used the choice where you could, but it had limited ramifications how you could use it. Give us the facts before any of us walk out the door. We will. Thank you. No, no, i want you to answer it. Well, i think i said you had it but i want you to go back and check the box for me. Okay. What i said was what we would like to do is get the authorization to use 2. 5 billion from the Choice Program for care in the community and 500 million for hepatitis c treatment and we would like to get that before the end of the month because we have run out of care in the Community Money in the va budget and we want to keep our care going for veterans. We think we think were in a good plague place in the sense that more veterans are getting more care. 7 million more appointment these year average wait time three days, Mental Health four days, primary care five days Specialty Care admittedly, we have issues we have to work on in other parts of the country. But were making progress in the right direction. We want to keep it going. Our veterans deserve it. So id like to just add that, you know we continue to buy care in the community for patients so that they were not waiting more than 30 days. When we ran out of money in our budget to do that, we took money out of operations to continue to buy that care. We can probably sit here and debate whether that was a wise decision or a bad decision. Had we decided not to do that and leave it in operations we happen we would not be facing any kind of shutdown or closure. But we would have told people back in june at the beginning of june, end of may, there was no more care in the community. You either waited in the va or went some place else. We chose not to have that happen but rather to continue to buy care for patients that could not get care through the Choice Program. And so today, because of that, we find ourselves not having money out in the field to be able to make payroll and stuff during the month of september. And thats really what were asking today is to be able to use choice money set aside to buy care in the community to pay for care in the community. The last thing i know one of the discussion was i know were having some problems in certain parts of the country. But some of the veterans particularly those in florida, they like the care that theyve received from the va. And i dont personally want to see va just going to a specialty. We need comprehensive care in certain areas and i do know around the country its a real problem with getting comprehensive care. But when you look at the approval rate veterans is like what is the percentage from 80 something to 90 Something Like the care that they get in va. Can you respond to that, also . That is what the vfw study told us. The other thing that we see is veterans have always had choice. Remember, 81 of veterans have multiple ways of getting health care, whether its medicare tricare, va. And what were seeing now as we improve care is more and more veterans are deciding to come to va. So the thing weve got to be vigilant about and i take responsibility for sharing the forecast with you is as we continue to improve care, how many more of those veterans are going to be coming to va for their care . Thank you, mr. Chairman for this hearing. Thank you for the time. And i yield back my time. Thank you. Doctor, did i hear you just say that in june, you were at the point that you were going to have to tell veterans you were out of money and there was no longer the ability to have care provided for them in the local community . To the purchase care program, we started pulling money i think it was about 290 something million from vra to supplement that pool of money in probably middle to early june. But is that an accurate statement, to say veterans would not be able to have care provided to them out of the va . Except through choice. Except through choice. Again, you couched your comment to make it appear that you were going to shut the spicket off in june. Theres 9 plus billion dollars, finite dollars, mr. Secretary which is why weve been so protective of that money. Youre the ones that sent out the card saying its a temporary program. As you drain the money out of this program and youve already said rightfully or wrongly one missed. You thought you could weather the storm. Its just squeaked by. But you cant. You got caught. Somebody made a bad decision. Veterans will still get health Care Community through choice. Is that correct . Some veterans will get i understand. I know there are some restrictions on dental issues is and things like that. But youre making it appear with the statement you just made that as of june, you thought you were going to have to start telling veterans they couldnt receive care in the community. I think i said that veterans who could not get care through the Choice Program would not would have to wait for care. Not exactly what you said, but ill go back and check the record. Again i stand corrected. We are at a crisis situation. Again, many of my colleagues have brought that you know scaring veterans at their hospitals are going to close and were not going to be able to pay their salaries, i think is just that, trying to scare them. We are the ones that will have to make the decision whether this money gets allocated and i dont think there is a Single Person that allocates anything less than trying to solve the problem that exists out there. What were asking you is when these issues arise internally the sooner you can inform us i think, the better off everybody is. Were still not satisfied with where we are with the Choice Program. I dont think you are, either. I think you have made those comments. But all lands need to be on that. And with that, i would ask that all members have five legislative days with which to revise and extend their remarks. With that, this hearing is adjourned. We will hear from other Administration Officials tuesday. And treasury secretary jack lu on capital hill. Theyll be before the House Foreign Affairs committee to testify on the iran nuclear agreement. That will be live at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan3. On cspan. Org well hear from health and Human Services secretary sylvia burwell. Shell be at a house, education and workforce hearing to discuss the Health Care Laws implementations and other priorities for hhs. Thats set to begin at 10 00 a. M. Eastern and again, you can watch that live on our website. Cspan. Org. When congress is in session, cspan3 brings you more of the access to congress with live coverage of hearings news conferences and key Public Affairs events and every weekend its American History tv. Traveling to historic sites, discussions with authors and historians and eyewitness accounts of events that define the nation. Cspan3, coverage of congress and American History tv. The cspan cities attorney working with our cable affiliates visit cities across the country and this weekend were joined by comcast to learn more about the Literary History of augusta, georgia. We are sitting here in the Augusta Museum of history. About ten years ago, a decision was made to do a military display, a term military display to honor jim meemy dias. The 3500 or so melths medal of honor recipients since the civil war, it turns out hes the only person ever to have earned both award. He will almost for sure say that he did not deserve it. He might point out somebody else that was more heroic than he was. He never talked about the Carnegie Medal. When i interviewed people who knew him. When i did the book a long time ago, people knew him well. I said tell me what about the Carnegie Medal that he earned when he was 19. They didnt know anything about it. I know a lot of medal of honor recipients. Most of them will tell you, i didnt deserve this medal. It should have been given to somebody else. Its a piece of humility that we all can learn from and i think he would have been in that category. We would visit the boyhood home of our 28th president , woodrow wilson. President wilson moved to augusta as a child when he was just a year old, lived in another house, and moved to this house when he was 3. President wilsons very first memory was standing out on the front gate out in front of the house and two men came by in a hurry with very excited tones of voice. They said Abraham Lincoln has just been elected president and theres going to be a war. So young tommy ran inside to ask his father what is war . What did that mean . Why were they so excited . We think its remarkable that his very first memory was about another president , Abraham Lincoln, and about another war, the civil war. Of course, wilson would have to lead the country through world war i. See all of our praems through augusta saturday at noon eastern. And sunday afternoon at 2 00 on American History tv on cspan3. The how judiciary subcommittee on Border Security recently held a hearing on Immigration Enforcement law. Thats coming up in just a moment here on cspan3. Before that, though, a look at how certain parts of the u. S. Are neglecting immigration policy in places known as sanctuary city. Marc rosenblum is with the migration policy snoout institute. Theres been so much focus recently on these socalled sanctuary cities in light of the catherine steinly case. In your research can you help put some of the data to that issue. How many sanctuary cities are there out there and the numbers of undocumented aliens that live in those jurisdictions. A group called the irc estimates a little over 360 jurisdictions that limit their cooperation with i. C. E. When they do detainers. Thats exactly what we mean when were talking about sanctuary cities. Mpi estimates those counties or counties and states are home to at least 5. 9 million unauthorized democrats. Thats about 53 of the unauthorized population in the u. S. More than half of the unauthorized immigrants live in jurisdictions that dont cooperate fully with the Immigration Enforcement. When you say dont cooperate fully, is there a baseline of specific issues where they dont cooperate that makes a jurisdiction a sanctuary city . The main way that dhs does Immigration Enforcement within the u. S. Is when people are arrested by state or local police for any kind of violation. When the Police Department sends their fingerprints to the fbi for criminal background check, the fingerprint data is shared with dls. If dhs determines that that person may be an unauthorized immigrant or deportable for any reason they contact the local i. C. E. Office and i. C. E. Can request the Police Department hold the person after theyre done and the criminal Justice System so that i. C. E. Can pick them up and put them in removal proceedings. So this list of 360 or so jurisdictions are those that dont always hold people for i. C. E. And theres a number of reasons that jurisdictions dont want to hold people for i. C. E. , but the biggest one is that Police Departments believe that it undermines Public Safety. Because when immigrants think that police are involved in Immigration Enforcement then theyre afraid to report crimes theyre not willing to serve as witnesses in crimes. So most Police Departments in the country oppose playing that Immigration Enforcement role. And youve written that the sanctuary cities highlight this tension youre talking about between federal and local Law Enforcement. Can you talk about the history of this and sort of where they sanctuary cities came from, what happens the laws that caused these decisions on these local levels. Well, weve had sanctuary cities for a long time, since the 1980s. A lot of jurisdictions back in the 80s sort of actively resisted cooperating with Immigration Enforcement at that time because you had a bunch of people fleeing the civil wars and Central America and jurisdictions were offering sanctuaries out of support for those refugees and out of opposition to the u. S. Foreign policy in Central America. This current round really in reaction to this enforcement model that i was just describing. Beginning in 2008 is this program called secure communities is the main program that dhs uses to identify unauthorized immigrants within the u. S. And so it relies on this very sort of close form of cooperation between local police and Immigration Enforcements. As that program became more widespread, dhs initially unveiled it in 2008 and at the time described it as a voluntary program. But over the next several years, they decided it was a mandatory program and that jurisdictions, you know, were required to participate in it. And then that really provoked a backlash where you had between the Public Safety concerns and sort of the flawed roll out of the program then making it initially voluntary and then mandatory, you had an increasing number of jurisdictions limiting their cooperation, trying to opt out of the security communities. From a legal perspective, how can local jurisdictions do that . Doesnt federal law have here when it comes to these issues . Well, there is no federal law that requires jurisdictions to hold people after their criminal justice processing for dhs. And, in fact, a lot of these jurisdictions see it as an Unfunded Mandate. What dhs is asking them to do is, you know, once somebody either has completed their time in jail or if charges are dropped against them, so there is no charge pending against them, theyre asking jurisdiction toes hold them for up to 48 hours after that and the locality has to pay for it and so this raises both sort of a fiscal concern because, you know jurisdictions see this as an Unfunded Mandate because theyre being asked to assist with federal Immigration Enforcement and constitution concerns because these are people who arent facing you know, theyre not charged with a crime and theyre being detained in jail beyond, you know, any probable cause. So actually a federal court has ruled that the local you know, county sheriff or Police Department can be held liable if they hold somebody beyond their criminal justice processing. Were talking with Marc Rosenblum of migration policy institute. Hes the Deputy Director of the u. S. Immigration policy program there. You can check out their work at migrationpolicy. Org. Last weeks hearing on sanctuary cities and Immigration Enforcement. This house judiciary subcommittee heard from local Law Enforcement and the father of catherine steinley who was fatally shot in San Francisco by a Mexican National with a criminal record. This is two hours. Sth a judiciary subcommittee meeting. We will come to order. I want to start this morning with a matter of requesting reports from the department of Homeland Security for the potential beneficiaries of two private bills hr242 for karina tesenevic and hr246. Under a long standing agreement between the committee and the first immigration and Naturalization Service and now the department of Homeland Security, the subcommittee requests a report on the beneficiary. U. S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement will stay removal of the a leen enforcement for the next year. I would support this if dhs find no derogatory information the committee can then make up the decision to mark up the private billes and place them on the house calendar. The committee has approved and the house passed these private bills in the past. One of the bills would grant permanent residence to Maria Ramirez and jay rohas whose u. S. Born children suffer from Severe Health conditions. The second would grant karina tesenevic who came to the usa to care for her then fiancee and now husband who is a paraplegic after being hit by a drunk driver. You have correctly stated the matter and we are of one mind when it comes to these private bills. Thank my friend from california without objection. I would ask any written statements regarding these private bills be made part of the written record. I now move subcommittee requests pursuant to rule five of our bills procedure for private immigration bills. Questions on the motion, those in favor say aye. Aye. Those no. The ayes have it. Motions agreed to and the reports are requested. That would be tend of the private bill hearing. We will now begin by welcoming everyone to this mornings hearing on sanctuary cities, a threat to Public Safety. And i will recognize myself for an opening statement. I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today and i want to express mr. Steinle, to you my profound sympathy to you and to kates mother, to her brother and all of your family. And those who cherished her for the tragic loss of your beautiful daughter. The preimminent function of government is to provide for the safety and security of the lawabiding public. It is among the chief reasons we consent to be governed and bound by a collection of laws. We want those we love to be protected. So we abide by the law in hopes that others will feel similarly bound. What makes this nation different is our respect for and adherence to the law because the law is the greatest Unifying Force in our culture and it is the greatest equalizing force in our culture. In fact, we think so highly of the law that we make aspiring citizens take an oath that contains six separate references to the law. This system of law failed kate steinle as it has failed others like her. And this is more than an academic discussion about prosecutorial discussion. It is more than political pandering to certain voting constituencies. It is more than the supremacy claws or the xhen commandeering clause. It is quite literally life and death. This is the real world where everyone isnt a dreamer and everyone isnt a valedictorian. There are criminals motivated by malice and a conscious disregard by the lives of others and cities more interested in providing a sank sanctuary for those criminals than they are in providing a sanctuary for their own alawabiding citizens. Ive been on this committee for over five years now and i have listened closely to the debate of immigration. You dont hear many witnesses called by our colleagues on the other side to talk about background checks or Law Enforcement. You do hear phrases repeated with catatonic frequency as if repetition will make it true. You hear phrases like functional control over the border. You hear citizenship for 11 million undocumented aspiring americans as if 11 million of any category can pass a background check. You hear arguments against some powering state and local Law Enforcement to assist federal authorities and those are the most illegal logical arguments of all. We trust state and local Law Enforcement to investigation all manner of crime for murder sex is all the kidnapping narcotics trafficking. But god forbid they help us enforce Immigration Laws. State and Law Enforcement are good enough to provide protection for members of congress. In this city and when they are back home. But somehow, some way all that changes when it comes to the issue of immigration. They are no longer smart enough to enforce federal Immigration Laws. And even though some do not trust state and local Law Enforcement to enforce federal law, they are more than happy to allow state and local officials to openly ignore that same federal Immigration Law. Which brings us to that benign sounding phrase, sanctuary cities. The definition of sanctuary is a place of refuge or safety. It almost sounds utopian, a place of rev unl, a place of safety. Refuge for whom . Safety for whom . For a young woman walking on a pier with her father . Or for a career recidivist like Juan Lopez Sanchez who had a quarter century of lawlessness dated back to 1981. He committed local, state and federal crimes in at least five separate states, he was deported five times and each time had such little disregard for the law that he reentered that border which we are supposed to have functional control over. His procedural history is every bit as disturbing. In may of 2011, this defendant was convicted and sentenced to 46 months imprisonment for illegal reentry again. At the conclusion of that sentence, he was released to a known jurisdiction for the aus tenseble prosecution of an old drug case. Of course, San Francisco did not prosecute that old drug case. They dismissed it which surprises exactly no one. And then they released this defendant. They did not return him to federal probation. They did not honor the detainer placed on him by i. C. E. They released someone they knew whatnot legally in this country and had a criminal history dating back to the early 1990s. And we are given a litany of excuses for policies like this. We are told that we need policies like the one in San Francisco. So people will cooperate with Law Enforcement. And i want you to consider how utterly illegal logical that is. We are releasing known criminals back in society so society will help us catch known criminals. And, of course, some of our friend on the other side say all of this is necessary. So folks will, to use the president s word, come forward or get on the books or get right with the law. I want you to ask yourself what in this defendants background lead you to believe that he would ever come forward or get on the books or get right with the law . He was already on the books. Better than that, he was in jail. And he was there because he had not complied with a single [ expletive ] thing we asked him to do. So are we supposed to catch him again after San Francisco releases him . Do we wait on another victim . Is that the strategy behind sanctuary cities . Release them and wait until they victimize someone else . Is that what we mean by coming forward . The president and others constantly talk about comprehensive Immigration Reform, but they are light on the details when it comes to enforcement and background checks. They fundamentally fail to understand that border securities, both boarders, by the way, both of them, and internal security are fundamental conditions precedent to fixing our broken immigration system. Mr. Steinle, about a year ago, there was a precious little girl waiting on the steps of the capitol for me after votes. And i knew what was coming. And so i could not walk past her. I knew or suspected that she would repeat those phrases that socalled advocates teach children to repeat to members of congress. But i had to stop, as any father of a daughter would. And i stopped and the little girl said, i want to pray for you. None of the stuff that the advocates tell the children say. She had i want to pray for you. So i picked her up and a mixture of spanish and english, she told god that she was not here legally, but she wanted to stay. And everyone that i know would want to help that little girl. But everyone also should have wanted to help your little girl, mr. Steinle. She wasnt 5. But shes still your daughter and this country should have protected her and i hope youre given answers. I hope the politicians in San Francisco will explain to you why they thought it was more important to provide a sanctuary to Juan Francisco Lopez Sanchez than they did provide a sanctuary for your daughter. And i hope this administration will tell you why a prisoner was released a five time illegal entrant to a known sanctuary city for a pitland [ expletive ] drug charge that wound up being dismissed. And i hope San Francisco will tell you why they released a convicted felon rather than honor the detain ner place or simply return him to i. C. E. You deserve those answer as and you deserve to know that your daughters sacrifice had meaning and purpose and that her death will serve to save the lives of other people. Trayvon martin was shot and even before our criminal Justice System had acted, the president said that could have been his son. For those of us that have daughters, which includes the president , your daughter could have been our daughter. I used to have a quote on the wall of my old office at the courthouse. It was given to me by a victim advocate. It was from a greek philosopher named solad. Ill paraphrase it, but this is pretty close. He was asked what city was the best one to live in . And he answered that city where those who are not injured by crime take up the calls of those who are as if it had been them. Thats the kind of country we should want, too. One where we do not have to lose our daughters to feel the pain that you feel and we shouldnt have to lose daughters to know that no one else should have to feel like you feel this morning. With that, i would recognize the Ranking Member. First id like to welcome all of the wednesday to the hearing today but i especially want to welcome members of the steinle family and to extend my heartfelt condolences to you. As a parent, i can only imagine what youre going through and anytime an innocent person is lost to violence i think its important that we all stop and consider what steps could we take what pomzs and processes, procedures and rules and laws could be altered so that we would have a safer community, so that a tragedy would not occur. So it is important process that were going through at this time. A hearing like this offers members in the public an opportunity to leigh learn more about the issue. And i hope that we can Work Together clab ifrly to address some of the problems we were sent here to washington to solve. Now, im eager to hear what each witness has to say. I must note that last night chairman goodlat and i testified before the rules committee on hr3009 a bill that has already been decided is the answer apparently to this. And i would note that if 3009 had been enacted into law, it wouldnt have had any impact on these circumstances that resulted in the the death of your daughter. In addition to that major Law Enforcement associations like the fraternal order of police, the Major County Sheriffs Association are telling us that bill would make us less safe and they all oppose that bill. I do think that the testimony of the police chief of dayton, ohio, i hope will be instructive. I have not heard a Single Person who suggested that it was wise, appropriate or even legal for the sheriff in San Francisco to have released the individual who is charged with killing your daughter. Having said that, there are those around the United States who believe it makes it less safe to inquire into the status in every case. For example, the domestic violation organization have contacted us to say that, you know, if there is a call westbound for a Domestic Violence situation and the individuals who are calling know that they and everyone in their household will be interrogated as to their status a family where theres mixed status, were going to call for Domestic Violence. So we have to be mindful of those issues, the entirety of the situation that we face. I would ask unanimous consent to put into the record a bipartisan letter that was sent to appropriators just four months ago signed by 152 members of Congress Talking about the importance of the burn jag and cop grants for policing in this country. Without objection. Noting that it is those very grants that will be removed by the legislation before the Congress Later today. And i also also ask unanimous consent to enter into the record letters in opposition to hr3009 by the Major County Sheriffs Association, the fraternal order of police, the Law Enforcement Immigration Task force, the league of cities and the u. S. Congress. Without objection. With that i would just say that i would listen to especially mr. Steinle and hopefully ill have a chance to meet you after this hearing and your family, as well. As you know congresswoman pelosi and i sent a letter to the attorney general just a few days ago to explore how could it be that you would sent send a person who should have been deported to a jurisdiction for a warrant that was 20 years old that clearly there was not going to be a prosecution. And oddly enough, this individual was deported in 1994, in 1997 in 1998, in 2003. And in none of those instances did this ancient warrant prevent him from being deported. I mean he was convicted repeatedly of felony reinterview after removal and served 16 years in federal prison for that crime. And he just kept trying to get in. And i want to give credit to our border patrol. Every time he tried to come in, they caught him, which is exactly what they should do and he was prosecuted. We need to ask all of this and knowing none of it can bring your beautiful daughter back, but hopefully we will be able to improve the situation as really, a tribute to your loss. With that i would yield back mr. Chairman. Thank you. California chair will now recognize mr. Goodlat. Thank you mr. Chairman. And thank you for holding this hearing and to with work that you have dedicated to this issue for the last two years. I want you all have compelling system, but i especially want to thank mr. Steinle who i just had the opportunity to meet. I told him that the fact that he would come here three weeks after the tragic death of his daughter to me shows courage and determination to make sure that other lives are saved as a result of this. So you have my deepest sympathy but also my deepest appreciation and admiration for coming here today. And i would told mr. Steinle that my son lives in sfrans sfrarn. I have been on that very pier with my son and my daughter and we want to make sure that everybody is safe. Last week, many members focused their questions on sanctuary cities, enforcement detainers and criminal aliens. We have heard much of what the administration has to do about these issues. But today we heard about policies that are sdipthly different than what secretary johnson had to offer. Im honored to have the family of kate steinle here and mr. Steinle testifying. And, of course, their perspective on this issue is one that we wish they never had on contemplate contemplate. And the same is true for countless other aliens this city has had to hear about, people like jamille shaw pursuant to legislation sanctuary policy and people like sabine dirben, whose son, dominic, was killed in a car accident by an illegal immigrant who had two prior dui convictions. Ms. Durdin is here with us this morning. I thank you very much for being here today as well. These tragedies were preventable. This Administration Must reverse its wholesale and unprecedented shutdown of Immigration Enforcement. Because the result of that shutdown is that the millions of unlawful and criminal aliens are not considered high enough priorities for deportation, they they are left in american communities. The department continues to release thousands of such aliens on to our street. Last week with, publicized activity of those criminal aliens. Vehicular homicide, Domestic Violence, sexual assault, dui burglary and assault among many others. And no doubt even more have been arrested for and charged with additional crimes. Secretary johnsons solution the priorities enforcement program, is a failure. Even the secretary admitted last week that five of isis priority a, meaning the worst offensing jurisdictions have refused to participate in and while 33 of the 49 priorities a jurisdictions have apparent agreed to participate it remain toes be seen how fully they will participate. The administration has admitted that when it says the jurisdiction has agreed to participate, that could encompass compliance with only a small part of pep. There is a clear answer to this problem. Compliance with i. C. E. Detainers must be mandatory. Jurisdictions that violate that policy must suffer consequences and most importantly, Congress Must no longer allow the president the ability to simply turn off the Immigration Enforcement switch. This committee has passed a bill that addresses all three of those priorities. Hr1148, the Michael Davis jr. And danny oliver in honor of state and local Law Enforcement act introduced by chairman goudy. While i look forward to consideration of hr1148 on the floor, later today the house will vote on legislation to address one part of the solution to sanctuary cities. That bill is a good first step and i will support it. I also appreciate the majority leaders commitment to me that we will take attention action to ensure compliance with our Immigration Laws in the future. Today, i look forward to hearing the wednesday thoughts on how to prevent sanctuary policies and the overwhelming number of crimes committed pursuant to these policies. And i also want to acknowledge that mrs. Wilg wilkerson is here, as well. I want to make it clear to everyone that this committee is committed to addressing this problem and in a comprehensive way and we have taken the first step by bringing the bill to the floor today. But that should not be tend, that should be the beginning of our efforts to make sure that american citizens are safe in their cities around the country. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The gentleman from virginia yield back. The gentleman from california is recognized previously for unanimous consent. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I should have asked earlier for unanimous consent to enter Ranking Member conniers statement into the record. I also also ask unanimous consent to enter into the record 137 statements including from the arch bishop of San Francisco, the methodistes and 134 other organizations on this subject. Without objection. We welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses today. I would ask you to all rise so i could administer an oath. Do i swear the system you are about to give should be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god . May the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Mr. Jim steinle, father of kate steinle who was murdered by a is he sid visit criminal alien. Shaif scott jones is a skoourt officer and brand new at their brand new main jail. As a xut, he worked in corrections patrol, legal affairs, he was promoted to capital kwan. He instituted a priority planning project. He hold a bachelors degree in criminal justice from csu sacramento and a juris doctorat degree. Mark miss Jessica Vaughn currently has been with the Immigration Studies center where her experience in immigration policy and topics such as vitae programs, immigration benefits and immigration Law Enforcement. In addition, shes an instructor for senior law nerchlt training seminars at northwestern university, the center for Public Safety in illinois. Finally, chief richard veel joined the dayton Police Department as director and chief on january 28th 2008. He has more than 35 years of experience in Law Enforcement. He served as a Cincinnati Police served on the cincinnati Police Department from 1908 to 2004 in positions including officer, lieutenant capital, ultimately assistant police chief. Welcome all of you. Mr. Steinle, you are recognized for your opening remarks. Thank you. First of all, id like to thank the members of this committee for the honor to speak to you about our daughter, kate. All children are special in their observe way. Kate was special in the way she connected with people. We call it the kate effect. Kate was beautiful. She was kind. She was loving. And deep in faith. Kate had a special soul. A kind heart, the most contagious laugh and smile that would light up a room. Kate loved to travel, spend time with her friends, and most of all, spend time with her family. In fact, the day she was killed we were walking arm in arm on pier 14 in San Francisco. Enjoying a wonderful day together. Suddenly, a shot rang out, kate fell, looked at me and said, help me, dad. It was the last words i will ever hear from my daughter. The day kate died, she changed her facebook cover photo to a saying that said, whatever is good for your soul, do that. This quote truly describes her spirit. After graduating from cal poly san luis obispo, she went to work for a Title Company and saved her money so she could travel the world. She traveled to spain thailand amsterdam, dubai, south africa, just to name a few. She even made her way to the slums of mumbai, india, to reach out to her friends mothers nanny. She spent time there with the womans family and came home a changed person. Everywhere kate went throughout the world she shined the light of a good citizen of the id of america. Unfortunately, due to disjointed laws and basic incompetentence on many levels the u. S. Has suffered selfinflicted wound in the murder of our daughter by the hand of a person that should have never been on the streets of this country. I say this because the alleged murderer is an undocumented immigrant who is convicted of seven felonies in the u. S. And already deported five times. Yet in march of this year he was released from jail to stay here freely because of legal loopholes. Its unbelievable to see so many innocent americans have been killed by undocumented immigrant felons in recent years. In fact, we recently came across a statistic that says between 2010 and 2014, criminal aliens who had an active deportation case at the time of release were subsequently charged with homiciderelated offenses. Think about that. 121 times over four years, an ig immigrant, a violent illegal immigrant with prior criminal convictions that later went on to be charged with murder when they should have been deported. Thats one every 12 days. Our family realizes the complexities of the Immigration Laws. However, we feel strongly that some legislation should be discussed, enacted or changed to take these undocument eded immigrant felons off our streets for good. We would be proud to see kates name associated with some of this new legislation. We feel that if kates law saves one daughter, one son, a father or a mother, kates death wont be in vein. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Steinle. Sheriff jones. Chairman, members is this on . There we go. Chairman goudy and members, thank you for the invitation to speak with you this morning. Im scott jones the sheriff of sacramento county, one of the largest Sheriffs Department in the country. In sacramento county, like the rest of california and many communities, we have a very diverse population including a Large Population of undocumented immigrant immigrants. Theyre a vital, important and valued part of our community. Unfortunately, there is also a percentage of that community that chooses to victimize otherwise as a way of life and sometimes heinous ways. Unfortunately, unlike your american counterparts, i cannot protect my community from these offenders. Secure communities went a good way in the right direction by allowing fingerprints to be processed by i. C. E. Keep in mind, we dont have access to their database, but they did a good job of notifying the local i. C. E. Office of folks they want to take custody of. Because they cant be in every jail 24 hours a day, they serve the jails with a detainer that says hold this person for a brief time until we can get down to the jail and take custody of this person that weve already identified should not be release. It worked well and few people fell through the cracks. Even under the new water down version of secured communities, the Priority Enforcement Program, its dependent on detainers to be functional. I can tell you that the detainer system has failed and consequently and necessarily then the Priority Enforcement Program is also failing. Even notwithstanding the fact that the federal government allowes and encourages states to pass their own Immigration Laws though they have no Legal Authority to do so theyre allowed to do so without consequence or challenge because its vp easier for that to happen. So we consequently have 50 different immigration policies that are constantly evolving. The recent trust act in california is limited to the types of crimes for which we could honor detainers. But then came a lowly magistrate judge in oregon who held that in kalamu county only detainers were unlawful. I and other administrator came back and pleaded and begged please stand with us so we could honor detainers for at least the ones that our state laws allowed because they said they wouldnt contra convenient that. They said to, it would not happen during this administration. In a leadership vacuum, someone will fill that says and that someone was the aclu who seized on an opportunity to send a letter to every sheriff in this country, telling them if they honored any i. C. E. Detainers, they would be sued. We pleaded with i. C. E. To no avail. So now over 200 jurisdictions in this country do not honor i. C. E. Detainers. People are released without any scrutiny from i. C. E. At all. California has been has become a de facto san ty tuary state. But thats not the same as sanctuary cities that pass laws that overtly and conspicuously violate federal law. They, too, are allowed to do so. I have it on Good Authority that the San Francisco authoritys office has not contacted i. C. E. On any reason for over three years despite being served with many detainers during that time period. Its deplorable and remember henceble. Youll find no shortage of Police Chiefs willing to come here and testify that this type of legislation named in honor of danny oliver a deputy of mine who was killed four years ago by someone that should have been deported, that we shouldnt be enforcing Immigration Law, and i cant argue with any of that. I agree with every little sentiment that is expressed. I dont care. I dont have any desire to enforce Immigration Law, but thats prosecute supposes that there are people that are concerned with enforcing Immigration Law and that is not happening. And notice i mentioned Police Chiefs willing to come here and testify. I defy you to find a sheriff that will come here and testify that some of this legislation is not a good idea because while were both singularly concerned with Building Trust in our communities, only the sheriffs, because of their roles in corrections in this country concerned with the dire consequence of releasing someone they know who should not be released, that they know i. C. E. Wants and society should be protected from and having not be able to hold them for even one minute while i. C. E. Can come down tt jail and take custody of them. Sheriffs are accountable to the people. Theyre elected. We have our own political voice. Dallas reason, a very conspicuous reason and even though our large role in recollections of this country that theres no sheriff representation on the president s 21st Century Task Force on policing and thats it. Even without National Immigration reform, there can be solutions. There could be legislative or stroke of pen changes by policy that will make this part better. To make detainers lawful and mandatory on local detention facilities so we can cooperate with our i. C. E. Partners despite what the policymaker necessary washington have. I hope youve had an opportunity to review the information that i presented prior to this hearing. It lists some of those suggestions. I remain deeply committed to assisting in whatever way i can in this issue and ill look forward to explain any of those issues further through any of your questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you, sheriff. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify on the Public Safety problems created when local governments adopt policies that obstruct Immigration Enforcement commonly known as sanctuary policies. According to an i. C. E. Report that i obtained through a foyer request, as of october 2014 there were 276 such jurisdictions in the United States. Over an eightmonth period in 2014 more than 8,100 criminal aliens who were the subject of detale takeners were instead released back into the streets as a result of these noncooperation policies. Approximately twothirds of these individuals already had a serious criminal history as defined by i. C. E. At the time of their release. Nearly 1,900 of them consequently reoffended just in that eightmonth period. Only 28 of them have been reapprehended by i. C. E. Now, ive just reeled off a lot of statistics that i know sometimes make some peoples eyes glaze over. But as someone who also has lost a close family member, my brother, because of a sejt act bay sworn Law Enforcement and also a bad policy and i should add that the offense that was committed was one that some on this committee would call a minor Traffic Offense that killed my brother, i have to say that it is really not okay to refer to these tragedies as a little thing. As one member of this committee has. I have a friend, her name is heather. A few years ago, she was car jacked at knife point and taken to Roger Williams park in Providence Rhode island and raped repeatedly by an illegal alien who had been n custody of the providence Police Department more than once but was released because the then mayors sanctuary policies. This was not a little thing. This room that can tell similar stories. I am afraid congress is going to try to get away from barring funding from the sanctuary cities and i am asking you today to not be satisfied with just doing a little thing. This big problem requires you to have the surcourage to do a bigger thing. You have the language in the david oliver act. Police do this for families who have lost so much. Sanctuary policies do not improve access to Law Enforcement service for immigrants, or been shown to increase the likelyhood more people will report crimes. They destroy the trust of the community at large that the laws will be enforced to preserve the quality of life for all. Despite the widespread public outrage at the San Franciscos sheriffs policies that caused the release of the man who went on to kill kate steinle. It is clear some jurisdictions will not budge from the policy and to make matters worse the Obama Administration new priority enforcement project explicitly allows jurisdictions to avoid ice and establishes the entire country as a sanctuary by restricting the ability of i. C. E to remove illegal aliens. Congress needs to stb that local Law Enforcement agencies will have cooperation in good faith and sanctions for those jurditions for those that continue to cooperate and by reversing the Obamas Administration nonenforcement policy. Thank you very much. Thank you ms. Vaughn. Chief dill . Chairman gowdy, Ranking Member and members of the committee, i am richard beal and have been serving in my position since january of 2008. Further, i spent the last 35 years working to improve safety in urban areas. I know that effective Public Safety even when grounded in evidencebased practices depends upon Community Engagement and support. First, i would like to express my sympathy to the steinle family for their loss and sheriff jones for the loss of his officer last year. Sadly i attended the funeral of Cincinnati Police officer sunny kim less than a month of go. Killed in the line of duty was my ninth in my career. Having to read a proverb a couple days ago, our passion is the wings that propes the vessel and the reason is the wind that steers her. Without a vessel she would not move. Without a pilot she would be lost. I know we are hear to talk about sanctuary cities and the role of safety. We think about how the best protect residents and keep the Community Safe and it is crucial we dont undermine policing practices. First, i would like to explain the date and file with regarding cooperation with federal immigration efforts. Our policy states that dayton Police Department shall not stop or arrest a person solely because of immigration status. This approach has served the community well. During the time the policy has been in place, we have experienced significant reduction in crime. I want to convey this important point to you. As chief of police my primary concern for all residents and we have seen a reduction of crime. Our immigration Law Enforcement approach allows us to focus on true threats and insuring immigrants and their community remain trust in talking to the department. I am concerned that legislation like hr3009 would coherce the Law Enforcement agencies. Many are facing challenges in terms of staff. Making all local Police Department will only make it more challenging. I see the positive of policing in my city. Dayton is only 4 foreign born and given the demographics it makes it an unlikely place for immigration to be a concern. But in my time as chief, i witness how significant the issue is to i agree we should deport serious violent offenders. No one wants Violent Crime in their community. Once we get beyond violent offenderred some locality disagree with federal Immigration Enforcement officials. I support the new Priority Program as the u. S. Department of Homeland Security described it. That allows local injures ricks to work with i. C. E. Concerning crimes that negatively impact Public Safety anywhere communes. I believe local Law Enforcement should comply with detainers as long as the detainer does not require jurisdictions to exceed their Legal Authority to hold persons beyond their current sentence and local charges. It would ask the local Law Enforcement to violate the constitution. Before Congress Tries to impose legislative solutions i believe it should first allow this to be implemented. Everyone wants a safe community, and and she would shoo not punish localities trying to establish trust in the community. Collaboration needs to be tailored to the communities. A longterm solution requires congress to come up with or fix our broken immigration system, and until that time local communal leaders will imemployment Practical Solutions in our communities. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Im happy to answer any question you hey have. Thank you chief and thank all of witnesses. The chair recognizes the gentleman from idaho for his questions. Thank you all for being here. Sheriff jones in your written testimony you provide some suggestions for fixing our immediate problems between i. C. E. And local Law Enforcement, including making detainers mandatory in local jails and having i. C. E. Share resources localities to assure effective enforcement in your view clinching the status to of i. C. E. What can we done to come prell i. C. E. To provide these resources to state and localities. Thank you for the question. Its important to remember that until a couple of years ago i. C. E. Detainers were mandatory. Theres nothing equivocal. It says local jails shall not may, or in their discretion, but shall hold folks for no more than 48 hours. Its only through policy of this administration that that has softened up. About three years ago they were man towards, and the federal government would refuse to answer whether they were mandatory or a mere request and now they have thrown up their hands say aguess thats federal law. Thats not in the ware of system of jurisprudence works. Can you explain that to the American People . One judge in one jurisdiction makes the law not even a judge. A imagine straight. Theyre judges. I guess. They still have a longer appointment than i do. So one magistrate its applicable in that district no where else, and so the federal government could have done something minimally such as challenging it they dont. They allow that to extrapolate to make Public Policy and the aclu seized on that. Its not like detainers have been mandatory and that was the success of the secure communities problem. What can we down now . Well a number of things, relative detainers they have to be termed to be mandatory. The fact you cant hold someone based on anything less than a warrant or coward or the is lewd rouse. We arrest indian this country based we detain then only reasonable suspicion and arrest them on probable cause. They dont see a judge for 48 hours or two or three days so suggest because youre undocumented you have greater Constitutional Rights is ludicrous. Thank you very much. Chief, beall, thank you for the work you do in your community. I have some questions. Your testimony discusses the need for comprehensive Immigration Reform to help Law Enforcement know who is present in the community. But isnt it true that kate type les killer was previously in the custody of San Francisco Law Enforcement officials and was already known by the San Francisco Law Enforcement . That is a fact. You written testimony contains a quote from an email you received regarding alleged racial profiling in dayton. Were any of the allegations in the email substantiate. They werent substantiated through investigation elm will say they in terms of arrest data there was clearly a surge of arrests of hispanic latinos that occurred one year prior to my arrival that was substantial. Whether the actual basis of those allegations were any of these arrests taken out because there was insufficient data about the criminality. Im sorry . Were any of these dismissed or not prosecutors esey, number of them d. Because of available propiling. No not because of racial profiling. A number wore dismissed to. But not because of racial profiling. No you sure testimony note yours departments focus on serious, chronic, and highrate offender wouldnt it make sense to protect resident bid working with federal immigration authorities to enforce laws so aliens never have the opportunity to commit so many crimes to to be considered serious, chronic and high rate offender. We work fifth federal immigration authorities and we have partnerships with the federal bureau of investigation, the Drug Enforcement the United States marshal, department of Homeland Security, including individuals who have Homeland Security investigation credentials. Human Traffic Steering Committee and secret service. So we have partnerships across you think thats a good thing. Absolutely. Do you comply with i. C. E. Detainers. They are enclosed with in my county. Excellent. Would you have complied with the i. C. E. Detainer in the case of sanchez . Absolutely. Your recent opposition to allowing state and local Law Enforcement i dont know that Immigration Laws are any more complexion than eye criminal laws. Why are your officers not able to work for immigration enforce. My understanding for individuals to be credentials required three weeks of training. Thats a substantial mittment commitment for training of Police Officers. Cant thing of any agency that coot spend that amount of time with personnel in train. The training requirements now being proposed through the state of ohio, theres a number of task forces established that president ial task force that are once again emphasizing the need for additional training for Law Enforcement i can tell you training time is an absolute premium, particularly for specifically as it relates to critical Staffing Levels holm do we spend time Training Police officers and i just talking to those who are in this area. The law is constantly changing. So three weeks of training is only valuable as long as the laws dont change. Thank you, i yield back my time. The gentle lady from california. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, first i appreciated hearing from all the witnesses. Sheriff jones you mentioned that no sheriff would come and take the position of chief beall. Id like to ask unanimous consent to put into the record a letter from the Law Enforcement Immigration Task force opposing 3009 signed by a number of Law Enforcement officials including sheriff mark curen from illinois. Sheriff tony estrada from arizona, sheriff from south carolina. Shares William Mccarthy from iowa sheriff margaret from fresno and sheriff lucy valdez from texas. Without objection. Also, id like to ask unanimous consent to place into the record a letter from the Major County Sheriffs Association opposing the idea of removing Grant Funding as a mechanism to enforce anything. Without objection. You know, i as we seek efforts to make our Community Safer, we dont want to make it more dangerous and chief beall your testimony was very interesting. In your oped you said that crime in dayton dropped by nearly 22 after you engaged your knew Community Policing effort and the serious property crime dropped almost 159 . 15 . Why do you think this happened in terms of Community Trust and have these favorable Crime Reduction figures continued or not . Thank you congresswoman. In fact they are a direct outgrowth of ininnovative policing it has been crucial in reducing crime in date tan and have dayton. Again, theres ban lot of discussion about detention and whether or not that is constitutional in citing one case however there are number of cases and i can go into all of them here. I would ask unanimous con sent to place a summary of a series of cases federal cases that you cant hold somebody without on a civil matter, at the request of i. C. E. , absent a warrant for something else. Now, i think thats why sheriffs across the United States, whether or not their communities say theyre sanctuary cities, have been reluctant to do this and thats why the administration has gone to this Priority Enforcement Program but it doesnt violate anybodys Constitutional Rights if you ask to be notified before you release somebody, and what we have heard from i. C. E. Is that you got a serious character like this guy in San Francisco they will get there and will pick him up. And they will take him away. Which is what should have happened in this case. Should never have been sent to San Francisco in the first place. Im wondering whether you have any objections, chief beall or whether your community would have any objection to the Priority Enforcement Program that requires notification so that i. C. E. Can come and remove people who are priorities for enforcement, who are serious criminals . Im not aware of any objections from my community with that program at all. None have been expressed to me. Ive been involved in the many conversations, the Task Force Conversations for the development of some of the mechanisms of notification and also for basically being involved in the rollout just literally being rolled out as we speak. Just met with the local Field Office Director last week, to actually give me a pact describing the program. So this is just being implemented. I would note also, and see my time is almost expiring that when someone is booked into a jail, their fingerprints are taken and those fingerprints i mean, of everyone. Correct. Immigrants, undocumented, legal, american citizens, those fingerprints are shared with the federal government, some made part of the database and that has not been changed at all has it sheriff . No . I dont think theres any confusion that interferes with Community Policing, or Building Trust with the community. Have you heard that . Not at all. Mr. Chairman, i am hopeful that we can home in on the need to make sure that the ability to remove dangerous criminals by i. C. E. Is enhanced and we dont get diverted by disagreements over overall immigration policy because i believe that we can have the ability to come together to reach consensus and in a way that would be a very positive outcome and with that my time is expired and i yield back. Sure, thank you. The gentleman recognizes him for his questions. Let me just say that there are 5,000 i. C. E. Agents in the country responsible for enforcing Immigration Laws, which we know there are 350,000 convicted criminal illegal aliens on the streets right now. There are 11 million or more people who are unlawfully present in the United States, and that when you have over 900,000 local Law Enforcement officers, some communities may want to participate some may not. We dont require them to enforce our Immigration Laws, but the people who are unlawfully present in the United States, and cause various problems, including committing crimes, are a concern to not just the national government, to local governments as well. The first step is to see orr our laws are enforced by the federal government. I dont believe they are. And by state and local governments, and i think that beyond that, legislation is needed to address many aspects of our immigration policy. Let me ask mr. Steinly and then sheriff jones to talk more about the personal experiences that they have. Mr. Steinly, do you believe that San Francisco should have been required to honor i. C. E. Detainers . Well, absolutely. Do you agree that u. S. Immigration and own forcement policy should not be to the detriment of u. S. Citizens and legal, lawful residents immigrants . Yes. So, wouldnt it be best to remove unlawful aliens before they commit crimes as opposed to simply trusting and hoping they wont commit serious crimes . The case of mr. Lopez sanchez he had committed some drug offenses and he had committed the offense of illegally entering the United States. He had not committed murder, but this whole debate about how serious a crime you have to commit before you can be subject to the enforce. Of the laws which apply to everybody, gets to be problematic, doesnt it . Well, mr. Chairman, if i may our intent was kates law is to get rid of or do something with the violent felon. The way i understand the law is, if any undocumented person comes into the United States and subsequently is deported, then comes back into the United States theyre a felon. Thats correct. And they we dont have to have committed any other time. Theyre a felon. Theyre a felon. Would impose a mandatory minimum sentence. Where i see that we have to home in on is a felon is not a felon is a felon. Were talking about violent felons that come in here, into the United States. If we try to arrest every felon the jails would be full and the officers here would be extremely busy. Think we need to differentiate somehow or another the levels of felonies. Thats another can of worms i understand but i you have cooperation between local Law Enforcement and the federal government, with limited resources they have to set priorities but theyll set the priorities based on the best information, not based upon individual localities trying to set their own immigration policies. Sure. I understand. Sheriff jones would you tell us about deputy danny oliver, his life and what kind of person deputy he was and the circumstances of his murder . Yes. Thank you. He was not unlike any cop in the country who has answered the call whose Law Enforcement is a calling north a job and to help people and a life of service elf the was assigned to the problem oriented policing unit, or pop officers. I call the quality of life police. Their job is to address quality of life issues, not answer calls for service. Its what he was doing on that date with a particular Problem Motel in our jurisdiction, already made contact with someone in the front and was on to the back of the hotel when he came in contact with two people in a car and i believe the last words he ever spoke was how is your day going today . And then he was shot a single time in the forehead, killing him almost instantly. Are there changes to Immigration Enforcement that could have prevented Deputy Oliver and investigator davis murders . Was booked under an alias. We didnt know his true identity. Secondly we realized he had a differs license issued from one thereof states that issues them, california does. Had suffered 11 different misdemeanor traffic related con offensive hitandrun dui was able to rieux new his drivers license and he had been removed from the country four times. The first time with a deportation, second time, released back across the border, the very same day he was captured. Three days later back in the country, released across the border the analysis. Day, and then the next year came into this country ill leally, arrested on felony warrants for local crime was deported again three days later so not only escaping consequences for deportations or prior illegal entry but in the last case, escaped any consequences for hit hiss local criminality because it was easier to dough port them. Esteem thereafter he entered the country illegally and fast afford to the vents last year. One last question. Miss vaughn, what are your thoughts when you hear sanctuary city proponents state that unlawful aliens are no more likely to commit crimes than native born individuals. I reviewed a lot of the literature or then and there is no evidence that immigrants are any more or less likely to commit crimes than anyone else. Thats not the relevant question. The question is, what do we do with that fraction of the immigrant population that is committing crimes, that have committed crimes can how do we happen that . That where i. C. E. Knees the cooperation of local law. Agencies because its the local agencies who know who those problem individuals are. Thank you. Chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois for his questions. Thank you mr. Chairman. I want to start off by expressing my deep e sympathies to the family of kate steinle. He death is a senseless tragedy. I have two daughters and as a father i cant begin to imagine the pain her parents are going through. Im very sorry for your loss. Im offer criticized by my supporters because i dont have a soft spot for immigrant criminals, no matter how small or how old their violations. Many argue that old convictions on drink driving should be determined when derryl can whether shoup be deported. They have already served the time. I am not one of those people who argue for leniency for criminal immigrants. If you have searens criminal activity on your record you have inup your u. S. A. Privileges and i will not spend time or energy fighting for you. There are too many immigrants in the country who have never done anything wrong or never committed crime and they are part of what enriches america and what benefits all americans. The tragedy in San Francisco has generated an important dialogue regarding our communities. The Police Officers we have entrusted to protect us and our broken immigration system. The fact is he should have never been released. To be on our streets again. Deported five times. Seems to me they caught him and deported him and he should have been deported once again. But there are serious questions about just hough it is the local police should go about. Nearly 300 jurisdictions have decide they will not comply with the detainer from Homeland Security. The fact is the courts have said that they dont have to comply with those detainers. So what we need to figure out is a way to fix the broken immigration system we have. We spend a lot of time talk about mr. Lopez we dont spend a lot of time talking about people who her the best country through other bored jfk lax and commit crimes in this country from all over the world. So were truly going to protect our nation, then we need to have holistic approach to our broken immigration system. It break mist break mist heart because could i have been walking on that pier with both of my daughters, and i want to make sure it doesnt happen again, and will continue to work with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to fix our system. Not in pieces and bits, but in totality so we can protect everybody in america. Because indeed there are many people who want to fix our broken immigration system. We need to do it in a holistic way. Had we done it, we would have more secure communities verification of employment so many other means. Wed have the ability to flush out the bad people because we let the good people come forward so they can not hide. I would like to take a moment, mr. Chairman to go back just for one moment. I know it might seem a little just i dont know unnecessary, but id like to go back to a transcript at the end of the dhs hearing which you presided over, mr. Gowdy on july 14, 2015. I said, this is the record. A transcript of the record of the july 14th hearing. Which i stayed for the whole hearing. All three hour. Yes sir you did. First, thank you mr. Gowdy forrure he can end presiding over these hearings. I just want to just for the record because i think it is very important, listen to this i want to say to you mr. Gowdy, i share with you the same anguish and pain as i know the secretary does and every american should at the death of that woman. That nobody has come here to look for excuses or anything else. I mean this is a career criminal we have on our hands so i think we should just figure out a way. This man is not an immigrant. Immigrants come here to work hard sweat and toil. We should be warm in receiving. This man is a foreigner who has come to cause damage. Lets fix our broken immigration system. That is my statement. Id just like to put it in the record once again because apparently mrs. Vaughn didnt read it or take the time to read it. Secondly, for the record, on the floor of the house of representatives on july 9th quote this is in the record and id like to put it in the record again because apparent live mrs. Vaughn doesnt read what is said in the english