And of course are on the revolutionary generation. Todays lecture is going to be on military aspects of the revolutionary war, mostly in the north and south. Next week, when we have our guest speaker she will talk about some of the western campaigns in more detail. We have that coming up. That will be exciting. There are other aspects of the war at home, financing the war womens participation in the war that we will not get to date today, but we will before future classes. I want to start by one of the best books on the revolution is a book called the men who lost america. In this book, it is argued that british generals are often described as incompetent or indecisive, but the author argues that they were smart competitive men accomplished professionals, military professionals, and the reason why they failed is not due to psychotic character fails, but because they faced insurmountable obstacles in trying to fight a war in america. I will lay out some of those obstacles, and they will be things that we want to keep in the back of our minds as we go through the narrative of the war from 1770 81783. The first thing is diplomacy. In the seven years war, and the french and indian war, there were allies. During the war for american independence, britain ends up fighting relatively a loan. They are fighting france in 1778, and then spain joins the fray, the dutch are against them. They have alienated prussia. There are germans, polls, and friends coming over to fight with the americans instead. Britain is relatively isolated, and that will become a problem for them as they get more enemies throughout the war. It will make it extremely difficult for them to put all of their attention on the americans. The second thing is the british political system. The british political system at home is making a very difficult for them to centralize their strategy. The king has to work to get majority in parliament. Parliament is a bunch of loose factional coalitions that can alw not always get together to act as one. The secretary of state is supposed to be in charge of war, but he has no direct control over the navy or transporting supplies or provisions or men. This is a problem. George washington faces certain administrative problems too, but he is not facing these problems from 3000 miles away. This is another inherent disadvantage. The third factor is logistics. The journey from Great Britain to north america takes anywhere from 24 months. This is an army that needs to be fed. The british army daily consumes about 37 tons of food, and with its horses, 38 tons of hay and oats. And this does not include the women and others that the british are responsible for. Yes, you can grow some food, but most of it is coming from back home in the british isles. I top of that, the British Government is trying to hold down costs so this does not become a revenue nightmare. And, they have to defend the west indiaes, africa and india. With all that, they are trying to wage the Campaign Successfully on the east coast of north america extremely difficult. After 1778, britain has fewer troops and a smaller navy than they did in 1776. It is not that the british are putting more and more money they are putting less and less into the fight against the americans. The fourth thing the fourth problem that the british are having is that the revolutionary movement is popular in america. Fighting a counterinsurgency is always difficult. The american insurgents control the press, the militia, and a militia was often used to punish loyalists. Even when the british succeed when they did in 1776 and 1780, rather than tell the americans that makes it americans angrier. The fifth factor, and this is related if the british are to win popular support, it is tough to win popular supporters and use force. It does not help that the british are using germans blacks, and indians as allies. This is the kind of thing that is angering white americans on Different Levels. Every time the british do it and all the are doing is making more enemies. The british are having this problem. Maybe they would have been able to overcome all of these difficulties if they had had a good solid base of loyalist support. This is what the british are constantly hoping for. Every time they launch a campaign not necessarily in new england, but in the middle colonies and the south, they think the loyalist will rally to their banner and they will have greater numerical support. This never happened. The loyalists units that do develop in america developed slowly and never really get the initiative. To compensate for this lack of manpower in north america, the british are never able to do that. They are always overestimating the amount of support they will see. The loyalist are never more than 20 of the u. S. White population. They do little for the loyalist when they show up. Once the british leave these loyalists are basically hung out to dry. The whigs rush to confiscate their property. Many of them are german to florida, canada, etc. These are six really difficult disadvantage is that the british are laboring under. Having won the saratoga campaign, and in the process of building the french alliance, now america decides that things are looking up, although the winter at valley forge was no picnic. Washington is in a terrible mood. There are rumors that he will be sacked. His men are suffering from starvation due to bad transportation and the just ask. Congress cannot compel anyone to provide supplies. Gradually things get better for the americans. There are some bright spots of the valley forge winter for the americans. What ione is a person who surveys the soldiers and the trails, and makes the americans into a more disciplined fighting force. That will be key, the increasing professionalization of the Continental Army. Secondly, Nathanael Greene comes in and will improve provisions of supplies for the American Army. These will be two key figures to emerge at valley forge. Some historians have argued that the american troops that are suffering in the snow but it over this. On the british side, in may 1778 , they learned that william howe has been replaced by clinton as the commander in chief for the british forces. The british are also ordered to pull out of philadelphia, which they only occupied really for one winter, and it will march through new jersey back to their headquarters in new york city. Their light of march is 12 miles long. Thousands of troops plus civilians who are traveling with him to philadelphia. The british have a miserable time. They find ridges destroyed, lots of rivers, stifling heat, 600 positions along the way. It is a terrible march for the british. Washingtons army is kind of following a long been looking for the opportunity to fight. They get that opportunity on june 28. Sir Henry Clinton holds it together. The americans miss an opportunity to do extensive damage against the british, but still brag about the attack. The british make it back to new york. Essentially after two years of fighting everybody is basically back where they started. Americans are looking at them from across the hudson river from new jersey. Washington, by the way, has still not one a major battle by this point in the war. Clinton is writing back to london asking for men, but his orders require him to send 10,000 troops away. In the four years after saratoga, clinton gets fewer than 5000 new troops to make up for the losses of over 19,000. His manpower is dwindling over the course of the rest of the war. After 17 in terms of naval support, after 1778, north america never gets more than 13 of the british navy. Now the british navy has other things to do. It will be in the english channel, often india, they have other fish to fry. 1778 and up being kind of it. Here kind of a dud year. One campaign that i want to make sure we talk about, even just to preview what is happening with our guest lecturer at week is the 1779 sullivan campaign. One group of hours that we want to make sure we talk about is the indians. Both sides are courting the iroquois. The erick euro Court Must Decide iroquois must decide who will give them the most goods. Mohawk is pushing for his own group to side with the british. A number of iroquois agreed to fight with the british, but the oneidas side with the americans. As part of the saratoga campaign, these two groups of iroquois fight against one another. There would then be guerrilla raids on in sy interior new york settlements, including the slaughter of american women and children. This makes my americans infuriated. The response will be washingtons plan to raid your iroquia. The french end up going back to france to do other things. Washington is fantasizing about attacking new york city. In the meantime he sends general sullivan to enter the urug iroquois homeland. Heres what he says it will be essential to ruin their crops now and the ground and prevent their planting more that of the country not be over run, but destroyed. He says, here is your tactic rush on, nothing will disconcert them in fighting the more than this. It is likely that they are unable to oppose us and compel them to offers of peace. Our future security will be in their inability to damage us. In other words, we are going to terrify these guys, push them as far away as possible and make it impossible for them to attack us back, with the idea that washington is thinking longterm that this will make upstate new york safer for white settlement. As part of this campaign americans destroyed at least 40 villages, approximately 160 bushels of corn and they send the iroquois refugees to fort niagara. Years later, in 1790, the corn planter was negotiating with washington and said, we called you town destroyer, and to this day, when your name is heard our children cling close to the next of our mothers. This was an effect of the revolutionary war in indian country, although there are obviously other stories that we could tell about that as well. Clinton in 1779 was expected to somehow take charleston, South Carolina advanced of the Hudson Valley and attacked new york city. He does capture stony point which we read last time that it was retaken. He also takes another place on the hudson river meanwhile the governor of new york goes into connecticut and burns down. The british are doing something, but nothing major in 1779. What we see happening as the war progresses from sullivans campaign etc. , is that the war is becoming more violent. In a recent survey text, it is written that maybe 20 of americans were loyal lives, but only 30 were ardent patriots where does that leave everyone else . In the southern backcountry, there were complex politics, local grievances, different groups of people trying to settle, horrible atrocities, tortures, executions violence committed on women and men alike, killing of prisoners. Griffin argues that order was restored in local communities in part because there were leaders who were able to come back into power, and because for whites, the fear of slave results tampered down other disagreements and concerns. That is what we see beginning to happen in the south. That will help define find the southern campaigns that we will talk about. Within america, we will talk about this next time there are a number of threats from within. One of these threats arises from how fragile american civil government is. The currency is a disaster. In may 1781, the value of a continental dollar in relation to the pound rises. That makes it very difficult the fact that your Paper Currency is becoming worthless makes it difficult to get men and supplies. As we are going to see in the formation of the constitution, american nationalists will remember this. It will help them make the argument that a scattered government cannot work, and some kind of nationalist government under the constitution will be needed. Another internal problems that the americans face is their most famous act of treason during the revolutionary war. Benedict arnold who had been a hero is initially approach initially approach clinton about defecting. He felt the rebellion was collapsing. Many of his fellow officers were disgusted. He had been passed over for promotion, he felt unappreciated. He needed money. His wifes family had loyalist sympathies. Clinton did not want arnold to defect, he wanted him to spy. Arnold vi bickers over the money. Arnold was in charge of west point, he asked to meet with the officer. The british sent a 30yearold spymaster, simply, for the british. He sets out in 1780 and disobeys his orders by going behind enemy lines, by getting something in writing from arnold, and disguising his uniform. He walks into a bunch of american men and thinks they are loyalists and says, it is me, and then he is captured. Arnold realizes he was captured and escapes from west point and makes his way to new york city. Andre is in americans hands. He asked to be shot, which was more audible to hanging, but he is hanged. This was obviously a big story at the time for the american side. There is sort of the american lucifer, one of the brightest stars of the American Army who turned treason. There were also several meetings in 1779, 1780, 1781. The men are complaining about what theyre getting paid, not having clothing, there is even incident in 1783 were some companies march on philadelphia. It is action quite chaotic on the american side. There is also officer discontent over whether they will be paid pensions for life. A famous story officers are angry at how ungrateful the civilian population is, and even there is shoddily talk of having a military coup and taking over the United States, but washington makes a famous speech that brings his officers to tears saying no, they will honor their obligations to us so he is able to combat down combatalm that down. In 1789, they are going to make in a tent on the south. This will enable them to keep an eye on the west indies, create a domino affects, and had a bunch of southern ports and head north. If you get say augustine, you can get savannah, then charleston, South Carolina is laudable. They try to take savanna back, but that isnt being a bit of a disaster. However, there are some future heroes of the haitian revolution , some frenchspeaking black troops. That is an interesting side note to the conflict. It is a failure, and the british control savanna. They launch their expedition against charleston in 1779. After a grim three months siege charleston faults to the british in may of 1780. Another big disaster for the americans. What the british than immediately find out is just because you control the coast does not mean you control the backcountry. Clinton leaves from your city leave everything in the command of lord charles cornwallis. Clinton is hoping to be near washington, but he is not getting the reinforcements that he needs. Cornwallis is down south, in charge of british forces. He wins a big victory early on at the battle of camden against horatio gates, the hero of saratoga. The southern part of the Continental Army is essentially shattered. It is another big disaster for the colonist. Britain eventually suffers reversal. On the one hand, the wing militia. And, resurgence Continental Army. The big battle is october 1770, kings mountain. They are fighting Patrick Ferguson who gets surrounded and killed. In the following month, there will be american commanders who emerge from the carolinas. The swamp fox they all have great nicknames leading the american units against the british. It is a nasty war, as i said boat before. As the british general said, the violence of the passions of these people are beyond every curve of humanity. The british and americans both experienced this savage warfare in the backcountry of the south. Then, Nathanael Greene of rhode island emerges as the commander of the cottonelle army in the south. What he does is he keeps fighting cornwallis. He loses most of the battles but seems to see the cornwallis loses nothing from the victories. He keeps retreating to the coast and back to the supply line. This is what enables him to eventually when the campaign. Daniel morgan beats charleston in 1781, costing cornwallis 16 of his army. The americans are finding ways as they are marching through the south. Eventually cornwallis says rather than clinging to the coast, i will cut my supply line, travel to virginia. Again, a tactical victory. The soldiers even make their way all the way to char charleston bill, but at this point he has lost a lot of men. Back in your, clinton predicts that this will be pointless if the british have not one the americans heart. Clinton says, i fear this cannot be expected in virginia, we may conquer, but cannot keep. Cornwallis ends up trapped. This was both clintons fault and cornwallis. It had not communicated well for months because there relationship was becoming increasingly strained. Cornwallis believe that he disobeyed orders. It is difficult for london to keep tabs on things from 3000 miles away. Clinton orders cornwallis to fortify and defend the deep water port in the chesapeake. Cornwallis later claims that clinton had insisted on your town. Both of them overestimate the amount of support they can count on, and clinton ends up being blamed for the failure of the army even though he never approved of cornwalliss strategy in the first place. Washington originally wanted to make a big push to new york city and attacked the british there but when the french commander arrives, washington decides he will go south and meet the british there. 6000 continental soldiers, 3000 militia, and 7000 french surround cornwallis by land and sea. He is trapped for three weeks running out of men and supplies. On october 17, 1781, four years today the day, cornwallis is forced to surrender. Yorktown is not quite what wins the war. There are still 20,000 troops, and the british still have command of say augustine, savanna, charleston. Then, britain starts losing battles in the caribbean the lord mississippi valley, and even to the spanish. They decide to cut their losses. What have the americans done . They have one, essentially, by not losing, which is what i said at the outset was going to be there strategy. The americans greatest triumph may have been in 1783. Benjamin franklin, john j, john adams were on hand to figure out how to make peace among the various european powers. The European Countries all want Different Things. France and america both want access to the fisheries off of what is now canada, being able to fish in those waters was externally valuable. Spain wants the western part of america and gibraltar. They want the United States to be as weak as possible. France wants Great Britain to be as weak as possible. Britain wants the United States to be pretty decently strong to stand up against the french and spanish, but also be a dependent trading partner of the british. What the americans do is they take all of these interests play them off of one another and take advantage of it are people in british politics and also successes against france. Ignore the treaty with france and instructions from congress and make a separate piece with britain that france is then forced to go along with. The United States gets independence, to the Mississippi River and fisheries. Spain gets florida. Supposedly the british were supposed to protect all the States Congress was supposed to ask the states to protect all loyallist property. This turns out to be difficult to enforce but it is supposedly part of the treaty provisions. We have some other things to discuss in future days. To conclude for now, i want to argue that the American Revolution demonstrated the strength of americans commitment, but also the weakness of its government. It demonstrated the hopelessness of the british Counterinsurgency Campaign in the face of logistical difficulties and metastasizing world war. Those are really the main things they want to keep in mind in order to in order not to pay too much attention to the myth and think about the progress of the revolutionary war. That is a quick tour through the final years of the ward. I want to spend the rest of the time answered your questions. What i would like to here is some of your impressions of what you have learned about the revolutionary war. Questions you have about the campaigns i have introduced, and these articles that we have read over the last two sessions. Hold on one second. I thought it was ironic that it mentions a prison early in the article because his early writings sounded like an Early National identity, and ended up being his homeland that was so ravenously ripped apart. Prof. Carp literary scholars will get interested in him for this very reason. He was more of a loyalist that a patriot. There is some irony in that he becomes an early literary commentator on american life, but did not agree with the project. I have not read him and allowed time, but he is often quoted by historians because he seems to be such an astute observer and makes observations not just of new york of nantucket, the carolinas. He is well traveled. He has a lot of interesting observations on the parts of america. I thought it was interesting that the revolution was fought because americans had issues with Property Rights being taken from them and being violated, but all the peoples property who they stole based on the cattle, grades and everything that was taken, but the people were never really compensated for that. That is an interesting contradiction that came out of the war. Prof. Carp when you do Archival Research on the revolutionary war, when you read letters, you start to think that the entire war was about cows. That is all they are talking about, where are we going to get cows from two feet our troops. It is like a war over cows amazing. Right. The argument that americans are making is that because loyalists are so intimidated and the treason is the ideals of the revolution is that their property does not deserve to be respected. This is what can be dangerous about wars. You can say, these people are not playing along with ideology, therefore we can strip them of their rights. That can be a dangerous game and times of revolution. I was curious about the native americans the traveled to britain and what differed in that situation, whereas the natives were not connected and did not communicate all that well with americans at the time, especially with Great Britain. Prof. Carp we get the impression that native americans and whites were not communicating at sometimes. Whites are often said to not understand it of americans and that was certainly true, but there were some who understood quite well. Joseph brann was not the only indian to travel from london. As early as the 1710s, there were delegations that traveled to london. They were obviously of curiosity to the british people. One thing that talks but when we did our lecture on the Boston Tea Party was for fancy masquerade dress, you could just up as a native american and any number of other things. Today, that would be a low sketchy, but back then, this was a common thing for fancy british people to do. They knew about native americans a little, and white north americans knew about native americans a lot. They had been living a long alongside native americans for a long time. Before the American Revolution there were a lot of white newcomers from scotland and england who did not have a familiarity. There is some ignorance and fear, and most of those newcomers moved out onto the frontier settlements near the native americans. What you are saying is different populations with different different white populations with Different Levels of familiarity with native americans. Does the brown was not alone. It is not that there were a ton who went over to visit, but there were some. What else can i refine . I know that new england was very on fire for the revolution during this time. It is pretty much talking about especially Westchester County was indifferent as well as their leader is good is that what was the easy for the british to come in and take over because they were so politically indifferent . Prof. Carp that is a good question. The rays is tough problem. When the british army makes it somewhat in north america successfully, is that because strategically they had the advantage and were able to get someplace very quickly, or is it because they are fighting a politically friendly environment or know they will find one, and that is what motivates them to get that . I do not have a perfect answer to that question. Westchester is just up the river, easily navigable from new york city. Strategically, it is important place for people to stay because it is in between connecticut and new jersey. There is some high ground that the would want to occupy for certain military advantages. You are right, it may be one of those things that most the british that lulls the british into thinking they will find loyalists. It might mean they were just biding their time until the british army came to the rescue, and then all of the loyalists will come out of the woodwork. The experience must have been quite a disappointment. Did they find loyalists . Of course, but it does not end up looking like the mirror image of new england for them. I would like to hear from you folks a little more. Go ahead. I guess one of my interrelations of white Westchester County was the situation there was far more complicated, i found that a lot of other places, especially places closer to new york or philadelphia, where the congress was being held. Its because also to the distance that this war was being fought over, just in the americas. And a lot of other readings, historians stress a locality, as opposed to a nation. There may be supporters of the revolution or some political activity in these places, these places are localities. They are concerned and responsible for what is happening in the areas, not so much concerned or affected by what is going on in philadelphia or savannah, or elsewhere where this war is being fought. Prof. Carp the question nationalism has always been one that has interested me. Also, the question of space. In the United States, those questions are often inextricably tied. The historian david potter, many many years ago once said that one fights for his joy of his peanut club. The idea that the nation is so big and abstract, and because there was not such a thing as the american nation in 1786, this was a little vague as to what people think they are fighting for. They know their neighbors. They know they are fighting for their own property and community, and often militia units would all pick up from the same community, and move on the battlefield. They are feeling like they are fighting against their neighbors. We also know that middle colonists and southern colonists are also different from each other. We have to make the argument that they are fighting for something bigger than their own locality. That is the answer to the question. What is it that makes the nation . The got no army seems to be a viable national force. The cottonelle congress a pretty Weak National government. There are people like Alexander Hamilton and James Madison who are going to look at congress and say, this is a disaster, we cannot get states to prop up the decision. We have a pretty good unit in france, washington seems to be holding together, but otherwise we really have a nation here . This is the kind of thing that can lead to apathy in the absence of Strong National governments. It was something that even after the war was over, the group of american nationalists who end up creating the constitution become extremely worried about the failures of the nation that they had seen during the war. This something we will talk about even more. That other issue that you bring up is the issue. I was think about the American Revolution versus being french revolution. In the fronts, yes, there are things happening in the countryside, but ours is so essential, you can tell a story and figure out who is on which side. There are seven Different Things happening in seven different places all at the same time, the distances are hundreds of miles apart. Again, the continent is going to represent a challenge for british to control, it will be a challenge for americans to control as things develop further. These are definitely interesting problems. Go ahead. This leads us not too far after the war. It is washington bemoaning how apolitical people have become. Was there any effort for people to be recommissary for the damage . Like on the home front, in terms of reclaiming damage. Prof. Carp in every state, they will later be claimed. If it got no army told you that they would pay you back, that is basis for them pay you back. If the british came along and torched her stuff, you could try use as a basis for getting your money back. And the loyalist, there is a whole archive in london of the audit Office Records of the loyalist claims put forth in 17741785 where the loyalist for say, i supported thinking, and now i am back ins and they do often get compensation from the British Government. Not all that they are for, but the British Government spends a ton of money recompensating these folds in theory, the american states were supposed to give back to the loyalist, but that is not what happened. There are big fights about that especially in South Carolina and new york. Alexander hamilton advocates for the loyalist to come back to their property. He wants to see the trade relationships he wants to see these men of capital restored to new york politics and for trade relives relationships to resume. That is why the more francophile jeffersonians but trade has entm. Gogoahead. Would you see that the large trucks perpetuate the system . Prof. Carp this is one of the things that has been written about at greater length which is a broader history of new york state. Yes, there are some large mannors, but if you go further up the river there will be livingston manor, portland matter, other huge tracts, some almost as big as counties. That is where one family owns all the land and you have these farmers working on it, who would rather not be someones tenant and would rather be of small landholders themselves. Her has been a lot of debate a month historians. As i have a sense of social revolution of the ordinary farmers to get more equal distribution in the land of new york, or to what extent do we see a perpetuation of existing social inequalities. That is something im not ready to get on at this time c but in something that can give interested in. I think he is arguing to some e degree that these cost differences put a damper on more ideological politicization. We should spend some time talking about what can human is so that we know we are all on the same page what is the story that kim is telling us before we start asking some of these more interesting questions. Anyone want to take a crack at the basic argument . Goahead. In the sense that no matter what side you choose, you are still in about situation. He said that cities do not reap horizontal after the war. I was wondering in the midst of the war how they did not reap scores, but after the war they did. I do not know what that means so much. Prof. Carp i must not have heard the word, what do you mean exactly . , he said that while it was going on, it was so glorified, they were gaining their independence. Prof. Carp oh. He uses the term which he puts in as how it is part of a phrase that comes from the book, revolutionary people at war for ago what he argues is in 173517 76, the American People are all in for the revolution. They think it will be quick they are behind the documents, therefore make up minutemen companies. You read a lot of the jetta credit patriotic rhetoric about winning this war. As the war goes on, and people find out how unpleasant the war is, some of this starts to fade. That is where you start to get troops distrusting civilians civilians distrusting troops. Things do not look as patriotic that as it did before. As though its a much of what you mentioned first which is his comparison from westchester to korea. What do you think of that . That is not something you see in history articles on the 18th century. Every once in a while, students will be shocked by this, and not really very comfortable with it. They are looking for some sort of mystical objectivity from historians, do not want personal experiences. Im curious if you had any particular reaction to this . Gabby or jen . Jen, go ahead. He said that westchester had little political involvement before the war. I am assuming that korea did not have that much political involvement prior to the war. Prof. Carp what he is trying to talk about is the relationship between war and politics. Does it war make you more politicized because it gives you inspired . All of a sudden, there are soldiers out in the field. It becomes an all for one and one for all saying. Alternatively, if there is an enemy in your backyard, that will politicize you because all of a sudden you are so angry at the british, but now they have taken all your cattle and bothering your wife. That was the argument that john shy had made. The war politicizes americans so they will come out of it on the other side more politicized than they had been. Kim says, actually, ive lived through a war, and that was not what the experience was like for me. And said, war is horrible and makes you not want to have anything to do with politicians ever again because it leads to things like this. He has that beautiful long quote by timothy white, haunted by the memory of what the county looks like. People are just living in fear and seem like they are psychological wrecks from having been the site of campaigning in 1776. The article really packs an emotional punch, i think. Kim was drawing on his own emotional experiences to some extent to make that argument. A precedent was set and how we should engage the public in war. Im thinking of homespun movements and stuff like that. Prof. Carp americans do that. Thomas pain is all over that. These are the times that try mens souls, we want men who will be part of this for the whole year. There are american pop again this propagandists at work throughout the war. They are doing their best to keep americans engage, but the reality of a poorly supplied army, civilians who are annoyed with troops wondering through the backyard the reality is all the propaganda and ideology in the world, if it is up against this kind of situation he has not say the all american is like westchester but that more parts of america are like westchester than we think. Is the only image we have in our mind is lexington concord, and that we skip ahead to your town, that makes the American Revolution that really heroic and great. The reality is the violence that Patrick Griffin describes, and this type of violence and disorder that we are seeing in westchester as well. Go ahead. What was the american logistical plan for supplying and feeding their soldiers . Items that with the british some things dont happen because of coordination, britain is pretty far, and sometimes they have to rely on a backup plan or sometimes it is downright not possible. What is american strategy . Did they actually have something . Prof. Carp give me a second. For washington and oconnell army, they tried to pay for stuff where they could. Americans are growing tons of crops. The issue is can it be paid for . If all you are offering is worthless currency, you might find someone saying, yes that was the price when the dollar was worth something, now, i will have to charge you 700. That will create tension. Burgemerchants are looking for a fair price, and the army has to get fed. Eventually, americans try to centralize everything and get eggs on a better financial footing. For americans, the supply problems there are just some things that they cannot get t themselves, like gunpowder. It does not grow naturally in america. Our things they have to import. If they are going to get stuff from their own home merchants, they need ready money to do that. Franklin is spending the entire war in france, begging for loans and cash. That is really the americans problem, that they do not have enough of a tax base in order to pay for the supplies that they need a lot of the time. Gabby . I found it interesting in the beginning of the article when he was talking about pretty much there is no Political Movement in the county, and then the loyalists, and everyone comes in and a kind of just standing other soapboxes, i guess pretty much. They pulled westchester to find to choose a side. Kind of like they threw up their hands, you have told us your side what were the words he used . There were acting as if the war was going to be one based on the amount of people that they can convert and get on to our side. The quote from governor morris was really interesting when he said, not what one month ago, we give them was whigism it was a clicks w quick switch. Prof. Carp for a lot of americans, the best thing you could be was an opportunist. If there is an artery in your backyard, you will want that to treat you well. You say that what you would want to say. We would like to believe you and that people would stay consistent with ideas, but the people of do not really have that luxury. While it might have disappointed agent leaders like governor morris that the people westchester and step faceless, it was common sense, probably. Wait one second. Ok. Yes. I thought it just enough in your committee of inspection had 100 principal freeholders, and is Loyalist Committee comes through with 400. You can pretty much see the political temperature of what that c county will have after the fact. Prof. Carp yeah. One of the things that historians about to do is have a perfect measure of how much more list support versus paging support there was in a given county. The closest we can get our documents like that that we know our our imperfect because who was asking the questions . We can make guesses about what we know about the religious background, guesses about ethnicity, a few other things, but we do not have the scientific polling that we have today. We also know that this is an midst of a civil war, and right on the frontlines of a civil war. Theres going to be opportunist am involved. Peoples answer to how page are you will be contingent. These are great questions. Try to think i did not think my overview was going to be so short. Because through that stuff very quickly. Two people have other we are doing great on cam, and i and happy to discuss that further. I realize that a lot of people were staying neutral, or leading towardswas this in part because they had the british pension . Did the americans have a pension . Professor carp so, pension is a military thing. They were obviously officers, like the governors, who, you know, most of whom had fled at the beginning of the worker might have expected some sort of pension, either now or later. Or Something Like that could but debt is a very small portion. Tensions were for officers, not for ordinary soldiers. And so that wouldnt have really have been a factor. On the other hand, the temptation of Great Britain and its money in something that definitely is a factor, and the closer you are to new york city where you have the british headquarters here is a hungry army and women and children and a thriving, you know, population center, a lot of farmers who were coming in from long island, new jersey, upstate new york not connecticut to asthma, but some of the more loyalist dominated areas where they were, like, im neutral and im going to trade with the british. If that makes me look like a loyalist, look, i have to feed my family somehow. And there was a kind of looseness there. And some of those people probably got looks patriot neighbors later on, but other people probably just went back to their lives. So getting direct money from the British Government in the form of a pension wasnt something that most loyalist could expect unless they were really high up in the food chain. But the idea that the british probably looks like they could provide more money on the ground at the time during the work probably was very tempting for a lot of americans. According to our american ideals, you are not supposed to think in terms of greed and these kind of low private interests. You are to think of the public good. If we are part of the british empire, they were going to keep taxing us without our consent and there are burning our towns of doing all these things were complaining about in the declaration of independence. Again, an eight year war. If youre living in brooklyn, you are going to trade with the british because your other alternative would be to flee or property and then somehow hang out with people in connecticut we didnt know anybody and he didnt even like them because they were yankees. So, this creates a dilemma. If you own property and you are near the british army, you dont have a lot of choice. Unless you want to abandon your property, which was really risky because you never knew who might be, you know, living in your house and not paying rent or Something Like that. The army both armies tried to paid rent for property they occupied, but again, in war zones like westchester, all bets were off. You were stuck in you had no opportunity for recompense. And these people were living on the edge of bankruptcy. You could be ruined forever if you chose the wrong side. So you can see, it is a very tense and fraught and fearful situation for a lot of the americans read. I think that is one of the main points that kim is trying to make, that if we get here to these myths of politicization and patriotism and lexington and concord to much, we miss the Bigger Picture. And that Bigger Picture was unfortunately for a lot of americans, whatever their loyalties, that picture was often one of misery. Give it a second. Then ask a question. I have a question regarding i have a question regarding the people who werent involved in the war. What kind of currency were they using . The army was using this new continental Paper Currency, and the people trading with the british, the british were using their shillings, but even before the war, there was an issue regarding the currency in the policies. What exactly are people using . And if they are dependent on the british, are they still using connected to the british empire, isnt that a bit of a contradiction . Professor carp i will wait for the mike mic. At some point, the are going to switch over. That is why we now have dollars instead of sterlings. But in terms of what the exley traded, they are not lugging bars of gold and silver back and forth. Basically the way the whole economy works is a series of ious. Eventually, you know somebody would come to collect. You would hope that you had sold more crops than you had bought goods so that you have a little extra cash at the end of the year. That is essentially how the economy works. In places where you dont have ready access to money, there were some times and places where trade might have devolved into old barter systems. So, it is a bit of a there is messiness there. But i want to save some of that discussion for next time. These are more of the kind of homefront issues that require us to kind of turnaround philadelphia and orient ourselves from a different perspective. More trying to talk about military access aspects, but money is important and all the stuff is obviously tied together. Right here. Obviously is hard for us, but i am curious as to how crucial Westchester County or the areas surrounding, including new york city, obviously, area surrounding were to the northern campaign. There was obviously a lot going on here, but a lot of it was local action. Not so much federal, federal action. So i am just interested as to how the important westchester was financially strategically how important it was to the general campaign. Professor carp strategically westchester is always going to be of some importance because it is a buffer for new york city, it is necessary for access to the hudson river. Now, the british dont end up sending a lot of men north in 1777. And after 1777, far Northern New York is basically just become kind of a no mans land of conflict among indians and very various militia groups various militia groups. We have seen their fights over stony point and arnold giving over west point, so the counties around the lower Hudson Valley are hot zones for much of the war. And westchester, located as it is right above new york city where the british were headquartered throughout the work, i mean, the british do want to make sure that washington doesnt have a good way of invading new york city. He is either going to have to do is basically from i mean there are wearables coming over from connecticut whale boats coming over from connecticut that he is probably going to watch that attack either from westchester or more likely from new jersey. And so, you know, the british didnt always have to they could have permanently occupy new jersey or westchester, but they do want to keep an eye on those places because they dont want the americans facing them from right across the river if they can avoid it. And, you know, that is what i would say in response to that. In the article, he talks about the loyalists secretly forming, like, their little militia. Did that kind of love like spread throughout the rest of the country . Professor carp the question is about loyalist militias. Yeah, you have various groups that phone during the war form form during the war. There really is an element of just outraged chaos. And some areas were more chaotic than others. I mean, new jersey, westchester the western carolinas, these were areas of extreme chaos. The good often be quite politicized. Sometimes the fights were over kind of local clan, almost clan warfare, rehashing some of the fight we had seen in the early 1770s and so on. But some of it was loyalists versus patriots. It is not as if the british were a total failure in the mobilizing loyalist units, it is just that they didnt get as many as they needed in order to have the numeric advantage that they needed against the americans in the areas where the british are campaigning. So there are definitely loyalist units that form in South Carolina, north carolina, new york, and a lot less common in new england. But in a lot of the middle colonies in southern colonies, you would find and from canada you would find british americans forming these kind of units on behalf on their behalf. Sometimes they would have a regular army officer commanding them, sometimes it would just be another it would be somebody who would have been a civilian prior to the war and is elevated to this position. You have a lot of colorful characters on both sides, but again, the numbers the numbers or Something Like 19,000 loyalists versus a lot more than that on the american side. Some numbers i have seen say 200,000. Sometimes you see the number 400,000. Not that all of them are mobilized constantly for years some of them served three months and then never again. So that is a total over eight years. Lets come up front and get a question. [indiscernible] outside of the Hudson Valley area, it is very mountainous. How are they moving, like, horses and troops . Im assuming they really couldnt get cannons really up and down a lot of the areas. Professor carp yeah. I am guessing that after 1776 and westchester, specifically, i dont know how many engagements involving artillery there would have been because there arent that many pitched battles. But what if but if youve got a light skimmers company, that is the company you want being highly mobile. And so that is what they could do. You could have boats drop them off and have a right there, or Something Like that. So many of the places and westchester that were more heavily occupied were near River Systems of one kind or another. That is how you get your goods to market. So, keep in mind, not as much of westchester was populated as it is today. Certainly true of brooklyn. Brooklyn is extremely rural, and the communities you are going to find are going to be along major roads or by the little canals and rivers. Not canals yet, sorry. But, yeah, so, these were relatively settled areas. There were mountainous parts were i guess people might hideout, but it is not like the appellations we really do have to look for certain appalachia is where you have to look how to get from point a to point to be. Yeah. So yeah, there is an entire, very old book that, you know about the war and westchester. We even own it. The library that gets into the kind of nittygritty of how westchester experienced the war. And it is more of a kind of blowbyblow, giving her the overall details. King is not trying to tell the entire war, he is tied to make this very specific argument. Anyway, i think everyones questions were great today. Congratulations. Im happy to talk to people afterwards about their papers. I will just conclude by returning to that conclusion of the things we want to remember as we talk about the homefront and about the war in the west. The americans have this commitment, but as kim makes clear, that commitment is not always going to be sustainable especially in the face of certain difficulties. But the british have even more insurmountable difficulties, both internationally and on the north american continent, that makes it extreme a difficult for them to prevail and to prevent the americans from from securing their independence. So we will have other dimensions of this to talk about, but im really grateful for your contributions today. Great job everyone. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] you are watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend, on cspan3. To join the conversation, like us on facebook. 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