Transcripts For CSPAN2 Nathan 20240703

To. Do you want to add anything . I mean, its its sobering and sobering and i mean, the good news other day, some good news, i suppose is a very low bar. But durbin did step forward and call for a cease fire but the fact that so have not even done that. I mean your larger political analysis is of the situation there just call for a call for a cease fire at this seems to be a bottom. So i want to share something that share through others at on november 4th, the demonstration in washington, d. C. , and then segway to questions after that. So as people know, there was a massive mobilization in washington november 4th. Many some people this room may have gone. Many people know went and groups that i work with the rising Majority Movement for black lives, blacks for palestine and scholars for social justice were there and i offered a statement and some reflections that i want to share with you. And then we will open it up for questions. But its titled a black feminist statement of solidaire and of the people of gaza and the struggle for free palestine. Who are my people . This crucible moment of war and genocide. As we witness the dirty process of ethnic cleansing unfold before the of the world, who are my people as tiny brown children are bombed in Southern Gaza as flee their homes following the Evacuation Route prescribed by their bombers. Who are my people as my friends gives birth in total darkness in city and incubators are shut down as the power is cut off hospitals throughout the strip. No food, no water, no fuel. Just bombs and all. Tzara. Whole buildings are leveled. Apartments where families cooked meals, lovers made love. Children play games and girls dance with their friends are all gone now. There is a hole in the heart of jabu jabalya refugee camp. That hole is a bomb crater beneath which unknown and unnamed bodies are entombed. A broken man cradles his daughter, whose little has also been broken. A woman wails for the loss of her son. Nobody have been found. Who are my people in this crucible moment of violence and destruction in the name of defense. I was born a black woman and i became a palestinian, wrote our beloved sister, the feminist june jordan. In that simple quote, she essentialist notions of identity and blood and belonging and challenges us all to be bigger than that. Who are your people . Ella baker would ask visitors and stranger. Who claims you . And who do you claim in this world . And most importantly, who do you stand with in times of crisis . Despair. We do not need dna tests or genealogy searches to know who are people are in this moment. If i choose to stand on the of freedom, my people are oppressed. People all over the world. People who are suffering under varied and varied and violent forms of injustice and oppression. From haiti to hebron. From birmingham to bethlehem, from shot to prison. Northern israel to stateville prison. In central illinois. I claim as my people, those who are standing up to occupation, dispossession, hetero patriarchy and white supremacy, colonialism and settler colonial wisdom, antisemitism and islamophobia, environmental pillage, carceral violence and authoritarianism. My people are those Truth Tellers and Freedom Fighters of the world, those speaking truth to power in dozens of languages, silent vigils by the women in black on street in barcelona and tokyo. In madrid. Saying no to war and occupation iswhat. The queer palestinian Freedom Fighters saying the liberation of palestine must also include them. Courageous voices inside the halls of power, refusing to be silenced. Rashida. Cory. Ilhan, we are with you because you are with us and passionate jewish protesters that shut down Grand Central station in new york city and the statue of liberty insisting not in our name. And that never again means again for anyone. So so. So we will open it up for questions for nathan and omar and if people just your hand i think we have a floating microphone phone please. Oh, youre going to borrow a microphone. Okay. Were going to really share . And i just invite you to your questions. You know, succinct. I know we have a lot of feelings about this and youve been listening patiently. I really appreciate your discussion. I was in palestine a year ago and its really i mean, just to see whats going on, the incredible tolerance of the palestinian people, the fact that, you know, i remember hearing a story about how they tear down about 99 out of 100 houses of the palestinians. The palestinians will go to court and the courts will be stacked against them. And they its amazing the tolerance of it. And its amazing. There are more rebellious types of actions. Im wondering if theres any i come from a jewish background, went to israel in 68 and i was a zionist in those days. Ive learned a few things since then, but the question i have is, did the israelis i mean, i know there are some israeli laws that get it. I think what is it that, solum and some other groups, but is there any like chance that . The average israeli come around and realize nationalism and racism will not work and. Theres no chance for them to have having a double having a22 state solution aint going to work. You have a swiss cheese situation. The west bank, right. So so they need to have one state living together. Is that ever going to work or is it going to take generations . It seems like it will, but whats the chances of that . I like to think is a chance, but i dont know. Thanks. We want take a step. So theyre going to take a couple of at a time just to get more people. I think. This woman right here had a question and somebody back there. I ive been to west bank four times in the last years and on the last two visits, we settlements and to our groups surprised they were filled with america. So my question is do we know how many dual citizens are in and on the west bank and what does what their impact on this conflict. Can you one more okay. One more. They juggle three questions right. Hi. Thank you, nathan. Im a big fan of your book. The only language they understand was influential for me, and i wanted to ask a question in relation to that. You argue in book that israel often changes course, moves towards reconciliation with palestinians or ending the occupation, pressure from the United States or, from violence. And i know there are the u. S. Doesnt use its greatest leverage, which is military aid to israel every year, which i think should at minimum be conditioned. But i wonder and ive heard some right ers arguing that israel should stop taking u. S. Military aid. They dont need it anymore. So im wondering if you think that it would even at this point in changing israels actions. So ill take the first and the third kind of together because theyre related. You know, the the my first book is called the only language they understand. And its about the concessions that have been made by and the Palestinian Movement over the course of. The history of this of this conflict and how all of concessions came about through coercion, through the application of force in one way or another, whether was violence or the threat of sanctions or some other mechanism, diplomatic pressure. And i show how every single israeli territory will withdrawal, including lebanon, came under threat of force. And you know, ive been asked a lot about that book since october. Seventh doesnt to october 7th when were looking at perhaps the opposite of israeli concessions were looking at israel in expelling many palestinians from communities in the west bank, eradicating entire communities. And new discussion of establishing settlements in gaza. You know, arent we seeing the opposite of your of your thesis. And i think that the answer is, first of all, its too early. Say these things dont happen overnight. You know, many people credit israels withdrawal from sinai and the Peace Agreement with egypt to. The 1973 war which occurred, you know, several years earlier. I actually think that today think this moment, first of all, is an enormous historical moment. I think it is going to have decades long repercussions for both societies and my belief is that. We will look back on this as a turning point that will result in israel trying to find some new kind of because its very clear to every israeli that returning to the model of managing conflict doesnt work and work. And every israeli an answer from the government of how are we not going to have another seventh . How do we prevent that . And the answer to that question be we raised gaza. We killed tens of thousands of palestinians. Nobody buy that. You know, its happened on a smaller scale several times in gaza. And it didnt bring any peace or security to israelis. And so for the first time, we have a situation in which the palestinian issue is at the forefront of every israeli mind. You know, many of the last elections, the palestinian was at the very bottom of agenda in israel in the protests against the judicial reform, the palestinian was very marginal, was a small group within those protests that was trying to make it a more part of the protests. But they were marginal. And today i think its likely that those kinds of protests are going to resume. And when they do, there will be no denying that the palestinian issue is the issue for israel and and think that already hearing very senior israelis talking about the the necessity of making major concessions not the idea of releasing all palestinian prisoners in exchange for the hostages which a lot of senior israelis are now calling for. But even you know a former managing director of the main israeli oriented think tank in ss as a general by the name of udi dekel is, now being appointed as a special adviser to the army on planning for the day after and. He said clearly on the record just a couple of days ago, going to have to make major concessions for a broader political vision for the future thats its obvious. So that may to pass it may not but there now among meant of greater openness to thinking of different kinds possibilities that just didnt exist a month ago. With with respect to the question about whether one state or two states is possible. You know, i think that the support israel has all the power relative to the palestinians and the support among israelis for one state has always been infinitesimal. And today its even smaller. So i think that its very hard for me to imagine how you see a path to that. Out of out october 7th. But can imagine other kinds of of arrangements that could come out of out of this. Nathan on a lot of panels together and usually im the optimist and hes the pessimist. I feel like that was more optimistic. The first part answer that i would give. So question about israelis and where they stand. Nathan i have a very close friend had hagai lived the former director at cnn and ive done enough events with him when we when hes asked this question of, you know, where Israeli Society is. He will tell you voices like ours, like the voice of btselem, the human rights community. Nobody listens to us in israeli. Why . Because for years, the right says take more land, kill more palestinians arrest more palestinians, and they face no consequences. So if you can implement an agenda of what the calls jewish supremacy, an agenda of domination of one people over another, and face consequences, why would a rational voter vote for anything but that . So what hagai would say if he was the third chair here with us is he would tell us if you want to give us a chance in Israeli Society, we need that. Going to the third question, real external, so that there are consequences so we can actually have a fighting chance. And let me tell you, ive been in this job for seven years and ive met some of the most activists ive met on this. Are really courageous, brave israeli activists that are fighting every single day human rights defenders. Lets remind folks, you that the day this government came to 27 israeli human rights groups, a statement saying that that the government has been implementing a policy of apartheid towards palestinians 27 israeli human rights organizations. The consensus on apartheid includes Israeli Civil Society organizers. Now, the problem is the group was speaking very, very tiny, and they have real representation in the political spectrum. There is. No, i mean, before october 7th, october six. If you were to take 120 knesset members, i mean, how many how many would use the word occupied to talk about the west bank . Probably, what, ten, 15 . Like if that, you know, so youre talking about a political. System that doesnt have room for that. But so i have faith, a lot of faith in that group of people that are fighting very courageously. But theyre theyre under attack. I mean, my former israeli had a piece in the New York Times a couple of days ago, michael, Start Talking about how since october 17th, theres now really, you know, in a systematic effort to after voices of dissent, mostly palestinians of israel, but also including israeli voices. There was concern about that even before the events of october 7th. So thats how to answer that. And then just on the the dual settlers, i dont have a long answer dual nationals to say theres not good statistics this. But i think the question again reminds us all of a reality where and its important to always put our place in this thing right that you know somebody who is European Jewish could tomorrow or American Jewish go tomorrow and go to israel, become a citizen and palestinian refugees, which, by the way, are the majority of gazas population. So most people forget 70 of gazas populace nation are themselves refugees who were expelled or forced to flee their homes in 1948. So when israel orders them to leave their home temporarily. Then youll be allowed to return for many palestinians. This harkens back to what they were told 75 years ago, and theyve been stuck with the keys to their home, waiting for them to that. Right. So it means extra it sits extra heavy, but again, a reality in which somebody who hasnt lived there can move and become a citizen while a palestinian who might be gaza, who can see the there from in many cases because a of them lived close by cant go there because of who they are. Right. So we know in israel you know, destroys all these homes and says were going to move them to sinai. Palestinians say, why not move us back to our homes . You know, theyre right there across across across the fences. But its all just a reminder of just keeping in perspective. Last thing ill say on the on the last just about you military aid is just i think to really underscore the point of how us arms sales to israel are there is no other country, the world for which theres no monitoring of the aid. There is no scrutiny, theres no before the aid money goes. All you know were saying when human watch today calls for an arms embargo is treat israel the very way you treat all other recipient use of u. S. Arms. Thats not to say the u. S. Has a great record on that countries, but that is to say that its so exceptional that there isnt even the most basic modal crumb vetting oversight. Sorry, i just i neglected answer that part of the third question. So i just wanted to add, i do think its the case that israel relies wise on u. S. Military aid less than it did in the past. Its undoubtedly true that the israeli economy is much stronger and that that source of leverage is less than it was the past. That said, its very the us. Israel does not want to consider having some other great power patron. It regards it as a Top National Security priority to maintain this tight alliance with the United States and on a technical level, the idea of transferring or with Weapons Systems to a different, you know, patron is a is very expensive thing to do and i will say that its not just the military. I mean, its the vetoes in the security council. Its the behind the scenes pressure. Any some European Parliament wants to boycott settlement goods example the us is working behind the scenes to pressure its allies not to do it and thats enormously valuable and as important as the as the military assistance. Now we have a we have one back there and then two up here. About in 2005. Aaron david miller wrote an article on the united role. He was a piece involved in peace negotiations earlier. And in that he said the United States has never been an honest broker for the palestinians. They have acted as israels over those this succeeding years. Weve seen more and more unconditional support for israel. The arabs, of course, have abandoned the palestinians and europe has moved more to the right. Biden has recently unequivocally supported israel and only under intense pressure, started talking about the needs the palestinians. So the united there most arabs and muslims have lost even faith in america in terms of acting as a broker. So who can do this . And this role in exerting pressure on israel to honor what the Great Organization jewish voices for peace has done in terms of advocating for a jewish state within the 67 borders and fulfilling the promises of the palestinian state that were made decades ago. And only if the United States or some other significant power holds them to account will they ever get their. So and again i just want to give a shout out to jewish voices for peace. Im neither jewish muslims. I love jewish voices for peace. Ive been a member h r w thank you for all you organizations. I get very emotional. Okay, for uttering honoring the humanity of peoples. Thank you. Thank you. So were going to take three, i think were going to do a stack. Thank you for a shout out to jvp. Thank you. I found your book very irritating, but it was the irritations of everyday life and i a myself older i get as some of us can identify that i think. But its a wonderful book and i have ive read a lot of books on the middle east and this is the only one that really gets in to the irritations of everyday life and how the palestinians have to cope with that. So thank for the book. Im wondering if what you think of middle east generally, not just israel, palestine, but the failed states right now of syria, lebanon, iraq, libya, you can probably add to the list, but is the International Crisis group that you worked for, are they monitoring all of that . And i agree. I it feels like were at a turning point. And i wonder if you could talk more that in terms of the region and how is that going to how can arab states help us correct our miserable policy on the middle east . You so much. One more. Ms. Here. My name is mariam with the chicago palestine film festival. I wanted to speak to obviously the important ins of centering palestinian narrative and documenting palestinian stories, especially now, but also the past 75 years of occupation. Sorry can you hear me better . I think obviously those living in the United States see a deep bias in. Our Media Coverage on palestine and often even a censorship. So particularly in your roles as a writer and as someone documenting human rights violations, how do you see the path forward to be able to bring these stories to, the Mainstream Media and to your everyday american whos not maybe necessarily seeking out this information. So do you want to take a couple of. So ill take the third one first just because its in my mind. You know, i wrote the book out of a sense of hopelessness in the kind of work that i had previously been doing, which was more in the sphere of ngos and trying to influence policymakers and. Really, its what people might call a top down approach. Try and influence elite opinion and have elites change the policy. And i met many people who are, you know, now, for example, working in the Biden Administration. And they privately would agree with me on of the things that i wrote and said and told me. And they would to me, frankly, there is no way that im actually going to act on it. And reason im not going to act on it is. First of all, the the kind of thing that i can realistically is a tiny little bureaucrat. Step that you would laugh at. And that tiny little bureaucrat step could cost me my certainly going to cost me enormous headache least jeopardize my my job and im going to get you know dozens if not more calls from congresspersons and going to have to go and meet them and. Im going to have to listen to them and. And i i just have zero incentive to do it for something that actually isnt going to change anything. And, you know, i heard that enough times that it became clear to me that exactly as your question implies, you know, the most important thing actually is changing public opinion, because then the congresspersons wont be calling this official for that reason. Theyll be calling for not doing enough. And and and so was part of the motivation me in kind of changing my career and actually trying to write a work of narrative nonfiction that could be appealing to people who arent even necessarily interested in this real palestine, who might just want to hear a story that resonates them as parents and. And so i think that, you know, more of that needs to be done, but its a very long. As far as the first question goes. I mean, i agree with that kind of bleak geopolitical analysis of where, you know, the states of, the arab league are headed or where biden is. So so i think that thats thats all correct. I mean, the things look very, very bad for any kind of prospect of pressure in israel to change the situation. That said, as i as i mentioned before, i do think that october 7th itself and this war has resulted in a totally new landscape in which itself, as during the first intifada, regardless any outside pressure. Now has recognized that this isnt working. And rabin was Prime Minister who implemented is on the record. He was the defense during the first intifada and and he said clearly that his view point changed on this sustainability of endless occupation. The desirability of Israeli Soldiers being in palestinian city centers. And he wanted to change that. And he was forced to change his mind, because the costs of doing it, it became ungovernable and. Whenever there is a discussion, you know, what can the u. S. Do, what can others do . My own view is that change has to come from many, many directions at once. I think there really does have to be change in the situation on the ground. The cost of the occupation has to be perceived as costly than it has been. And in addition. But thats thats internally in terms of making the territory and governable. Mass civil disobedience of nonparticipation. Palestinians their id cards and saying we refuse this system, you know, that kind a thing. And and also in parallel, there has to be a change u. S. Policy. And in european policy and in, you know, global movements of of solidarity to try and achieve some kind of end to this to this bloodshed. And regarding the second question, i really wasnt expecting to get a compliment for for the book after after the first sentence. But but thank you. Yeah. You know, i, i think that, you know, as was stated in the first question, you basically the arab states are betraying the palestinians and im afraid that even now isnt isnt over. I think even now the saudis are prepared to do normalization with israel at a very price for israel, not a small price for the u. S. U. S. Maybe ill just share a couple of quick thoughts listening to the questions. So maybe starting with the regional one, and then ill have to go to the first and the third. So one one thought to share is i used cover egypt for for Human Rights Watch and ive worked in different parts of the regions. And there is a certain arc of history in the arab world i think is often forgotten. Most people, when they think the 2011 protests in egypt, they think of the internet and social media. You talk to most egyptians. And one of the more common streams that lead from to 2011 was actually the protests in solidarity with the second intifada and palestine and that was one of the few spaces where people took to the streets and protested. Now, what flipped in 2011 and generalized and grossly. But if you if youll permit me to do so was many people in the arab world said you know wheat lets fix our repressive regimes our own countries and then lets go you know, deal with the situation of the dispossessed and repression of palestinians ten years later in 21, weve almost gone back to the early 2000 model because if youre a saudi activist trying to fight against repression in your own country, who are the people pushing to safeguard the three letter acronym that runs that country. It is the very same people pushing to support the israeli governments agenda, right . So there is a sense in the region of, okay, actually, maybe we do need to deal with the question of palestine so that we have more of a path to go back. So its an interesting shift. Im not saying its happening but i think many people are understanding as the regime, as the repressive regimes in the region grow closer, the repressed peoples, there are opportunities for more ways to kind of strategize and think together again post october 7th, how that remains to be seen, but can tell you throughout the arab world, whatever is happening in the United States, this is a profound moment in the region. You cannot speak to anybody in the arab world, but anything but gaza i mean, thats whats on every all my colleagues who cover the other countries in the region. Many the region, you know, they have their own crises but but this is what is dominating conversation to the first question what i was going to say is to just kind of challenge this question of whos the broker going to be. And i think it pushes all of us, push ourselves out of the world of this is a conflict between two equal parties. And i think, yes, there that bleak picture and this is where the normal nathan pessimism im not optimism will come theres another thing happening in the world right which is there is a much more growing global consensus that israels of palestinians amounts to apartheid. Its not just in the human rights community. South african, namibia, countries that experienced apartheid, as governments have said, the treatment of palestinians apartheid, the entire african too, the human rights council, the entire african union, indonesia, malaysia the entire organization of islamic, the arab league. Right. Former european foreign ministers. The former u. N. Secretary general. The former attorney general of. Israel. The former muslim netanyahu whole point, the mossad director have all said israels treatment of palestinians amounts apartheid. The u. N. In december asked the International Court of justice to issue an advisory opinion about the consequences of israels occupation. 57 states made submissions, and i believe around the numbers around just short of about 22 states mentioned apartheid in their submissions representing from across the global south from america from subsaharan africa. So my point to say this is the world sees western double standards for what it is. When you say rightfully that russias cutting off electricity and water to ukraine is a war crime, when you call for accountability and in that situation, when you cite Occupation International humanitarian law but you fail to implement those same principles when it comes to israelpalestine people see it and there more of a challenge coming from the globe. So the is it whos the broker going to be the challenge is how we as more people see reality for what it is for those im seeing to an american. So those who know the story of the emperor wears no clothes right. This is how i see it. We the emperor wears. And of course, we know what the reality is of israel streaming, the palestinians. And more and more people are recognizing reality for what it is. A daily of structural violence is not a conflict between two between equals. A system methodically engineered to ensure the domination of by one people over another is not a democracy with a side occupation. A 30 year Peace Process will not alone systematically dismantle structural repression. Right. You know, systematically denying millions of palestinians their fundamental rights because of who they are is not simply an abuse of occupation. So i think more and more people are recognizing that and that is going to force eventually states that bury their head in the sand mentioned the example of europe i tell you, ive met with probably three dozen governments or more on. Our apartheid report. No one is challenged. Our findings no has said you got it wrong. They tell you in meetings, many of them will tell you, i agree with you, but i cant on it. So and that brings to the last question and nathan answered it directly is we have to shift the way we work right with whats happens is october 7th. Yes, we have to speak to the Biden Administration because. They have leverage and were talking about mass atrocities that need to be stopped. Obviously, we engage that, but much of the shift in Human Rights Watch and our focus is to say were not just going to focus on the us administration, we might focus more on congress or we might focus more on progressive organizations or speaking grassroots audiences, talking to the south africans and the brazils, talking to countries and voices, constituents. Can we get five countries in europe to recognize apartheid . Can we get, you know, several dozen states to sign a statement . So its a long road. I think it remains to be seen how october 7th will affect all of this. And the aftermath. But thats the fight in. And we need you in that fight us. And i encourage you all to read nathans book. We have a Human Rights Watch community here in chicago. You can see my colleagues, justin adler afterwards and, you know, hopefully we can do our part because we cant we cant keep having whats happening on the ground right now. I dont know how people in gaza are surviving. Are our friends and colleagues in israel are still shaken to the core by what happened on october seven. And so something needs to change. Sorry. I want a final word. So we want to you for being in this conversation with us tonight. I mean, could we could go on much further and . You know, im trying to lean into to to although, you know, theres the anti fascist antonio gramsci. She had a quote, the of the intellect optimism of the will. So the optimism of the will is that we keep fighting even though. You know, it it bleak and and we appropriately should be very sad grieving. But that should not stop us from continuing to fight because it is not tenable. So thank you for coming out there are books in the back. Women and Children First great local bookstore selling nathans book. Please buy one. I think hell stick around for the next 15 or 20 minutes or so and sign books. Support Human Rights Watch, support the palestinian film festival, support jvp, all the organized that are organizing around this issue, providing information, but also write your local elected and demand that they support a ceasefire thank you. Thank you all. It is really wonderful for us to have john and i back at the carter library. You know, it has just been several years since jonathan was here. He was here for the book, a book about jackie robinson. And thats been probably. Live seven or eight years since then. And whats really neat is that jonathan had decided to kick off his book tour for his new book. His book just came out yesterday and do that here at the jimmy carter president ial library, which is really, i think, a great. This is his sixth book hes just written, as i said, about jackie robinson, lou gehrig, muhammad ali capone, as well as the foursome who really did the push to get the approval of the Birth Control pill. But the thing that the thing that you see jonathans writing is an immense amount of research that goes into it. And i think he by that naturally his dad was an accountant. So a stickler for details. And his mom was a Community Act of us. And so if you think about that and think about the subjects hes written about jackie robinson, muhammad ali, Martin Luther king, i think he gets that from her as well. Hes been a reporter at the new orleans timespicayune, the dallas morning news, chicago magazine, the wall street journal. He has taught at Columbia College and lecture is at northwestern university. The Washington Post calls his new book the most compelling account of kings life in a generation. And so i think were in for a treat tonight. So it was important, i think, for us to have just the right person to interview jonathan, Valerie Jackson. Is that person, you know, she is always referred to as the former first lady of atlanta, which is true, but it really doesnt tell her story. I mean, shes grown, she grows up in virginia. She is the one of the first africanamericans students admitted to her high school. She goes college, gets her degree in business administration, goes to the Wharton School of business, probably the finer school of business gets her mba, gets her mba. There she goes on. Shes an advertising executive a Regional Marketing executive for an airline. She when she married mayor maynard jackson, who was the first African American mayor of the city of atlanta, she served as an advisor to the citys Economic Development program, bringing National Convener jones in programs to this city. And then if i were to go on and list every board and committee and commercial that she is on or heads, youd never hear anything from jonathan tonight. So please join me in welcoming Valerie Jackson and jonathan, i. Say evening, good evening. And of all those things that he mentions, my favorite thing to do is to read and talk to authors, which ive been doing for over 20 years. Well, im so happy to be here. Jonathan, its so good to see you again. I think the last time we were together, i was interviewing you on your muhammad ali thats right book. And we had a wonderful time. As a matter of fact, i commented to you about how many tabs i had to put in the book because youve got even more this to listen i look i was trying to be discriminate. I was halfway through the book and i noticed that almost every page had a tab on. I said, wait a minute, darling, you got to slow down here, got to discriminate eating, right . Well, this is discrimination, all right . And and that was after i slowed down a bit what this really means, though, is that this is a very comprehensive, rich book that contains so much Important Information that you really, i cant resist, underscore and highlighting. Thank you. So which color marks the corrections . Im not. I think youre going to ask me which ones are the f. Yeah, ill get to that later. Yeah. Right, right. Anyway, there have been so many books written already about Martin Luther king. Ive got at least eight or nine on my shelf, not counting yours and not to mention his that he wrote about himself, too. About ten of those. So the first question one wants to know is why did you think there was a need for yet another Martin Luther king book . Two reasons. Mainly. One, it had been a long time since the last king biographer in 40 years when the civil war, the trumpet sound came out. And since then weve had other great books about civil rights, about king, obviously, the Taylor Branch trilogy, but thats covers really america in the king years. David carrolls book is not a biography. Its wonderful. But 40 years between king biographies is ridiculous. Thats much too long. And in that time, obviously, theres a lot more material, not just fbi material, but archival material thats come into play. And at the same time, there were people alive who knew dr. King and was really the sweet spot where i could get around and interview them for, you know, it was too late. And obviously when i was here in atlanta and for my ali book, interviewing people like john lewis, like and andrew young, i just gravitated toward asking them, you know, what was dr. King like . Because ali and king met a couple of times. So i began asking them, you know, how they got along. But really, i was just curious to talk to people who knew Martin Luther king jr and, you know, were here at the carter center. Jimmy carter was born four and a half years before Martin Luther king. So jimmy carter could still be with us. I mean, sorry, jimmy carter is still with us. That guy, right . Right. Martin luther king could still be with us. His older sister is still with us. So i just realized that this was an Incredible Opportunity to meet people who knew him and to talk to him and record their stories one last time and like you said, there are so many things, personal papers, even a biography that Coretta Scott king had written that included a lot of things about him. So there is a great deal of information that had not been out there before that you have brought to the front. But i must say that the portrait of king that emerges from your book may be troublesome to some people, but you said that you to recover the real man from the mr. Hagiography and i had to look at it. But even though i know what it explained to the audience, what you meant by you wanted to recover him from, the hagiography that surrounds often one of the things thats happened, especially since the National Holiday was implemented, is that weve turned him into this almost ideal figure and know we teach beginning in kindergarten, this vision of dream of king, beginning with i have a dream. And we often dont get much more sophisticated that and in the process of doing that, i think we lose sight of his humanity. We lose sight of the fact that he had feelings that he suffered, that he had doubts, and that he wasnt perfect. And we dont need our heroes to be perfect. We just need them to be brave. An idealistic and and moral. And he was all of those things. So i wanted to write a book that you could feel like you believed this was the real man and not the cardboard cutout that weve been getting for so long. Tell us a little bit about luther king as a young man a. K. A michael. Yeah, mike a little mike, as he was called, because his daddy was big mike grew up here in atlanta. Of course, auburn avenue and he was, of course, the preachers son. And to was under constant scrutiny as a result of that and grew up learning the bible before he learned to read and also you know somewhat privileged compared to i talked to a lot of people who knew him who said that he didnt seem to be as bruised by growing up in the racist south some of the others because he had this little bit of a bubble. You know auburn was considered, you know, the miracle mile. It was it was a special place where black people are in their own businesses and had these powerful churches and had some power within the community to negotiate with politicians. And king had this, you know, educated set of parents. And his father came from sharecropping. He wasnt always educated. Be educated himself. By the time he got to atlanta. And, you know, all of these influences prepared. King to be who he was. So how did he come come from being michael to now Martin Luther . Well, his father began his father was born michael king with no middle name in stockbridge. His when he moved to atlanta, he began calling himself m. L. King. And its not even clear that he had a middle name. I think a lot of people at that felt like initials added, a little bit of dignity. And it was it was a trendy thing at the time, just to call yourself by two initials and. It appears that he did it really just because he was rising in the world and he wanted to be a little more professional, m. L. Sounded a little bit more professional, and then he began calling himself martin and marvin. At one point in the 1930 census, hes listed as marvin king. That might just have been it might have been a mistake by the census taker. We dont know. But then he travels to germany and learns more about Martin Luther and comes back and the ale to luther. And its a very gradual process. Its not until his wedding invitation goes out that he begins to call himself martin, eloquent for the first time. And then a few years after he begins using Martin Luther king and then tells his son, by the way, your name is changing, too. So why Martin Luther, what was the significance . Why would he choose name of martin . Luther was the great protestant reformer from germany who really stood for religious independence, for standing up for your beliefs, for, you know, for principle, over over practicality. Well, he didnt really want to be a minister. Did he know he was his father a long time, assumed that he was going to be a minister. Yeah, but well, its interesting, though. I was really struck by this. I found an autobiography you that daddy king Martin Luther king jr senior was referred to as daddy king. I found an autobiography that he wrote that was never published. And in that autobiography, he talks about how he really didnt pressure his kids to become preachers. But martin junior and his brother eddie became preachers. But daddy king said he wanted them to make money. He was really he was really more concerned them. Thank you. Im sweating quite a bit here. This happens to me often. Dont worry. Youre not making me nervous. I didnt mean no thanks, but. In this autobiography, that was never published. Daddy king, that he really wanted them to be businessmen, lawyers. He was really concerned with their Financial Security and thats so interesting to me because, you know, daddy can grow up, as i said, a sharecropper, his son and i think that his ability to get off the farm and go to atlanta and himself was was a was life changing experience for his entire family. And he was also concerned with his childrens safety. You know, the idea Martin Luther king junior would become the of a protest movement in montgomery to begin with really frightened him. And he went to montgomery several times and said, youve got to stop this. Youve to come home, knock this off, because youre going to get killed. So, daddy king, like most parents, was protective of. His son wanted him to be financially stable. And we often hear that he pressured his kids to become preachers, but according to this unpublished autobiography, not true, that of the the one thing about his childhood that struck in the book was when they had premiere of gone with the wind in atlanta. Big, big premiere, you know, and it what the problem was, it was segregate it so blacks were not allowed to to attend. You know, as guest unless they were being a chauffeur or a waiter. But the family had a great choir at Ebenezer Baptist church. And im not sure if if they had a king made the suggestion or if they reached out to him. But somehow or another they were invited to perform, not to be a guest, but to perform at the premiere and they did. Tell me, what role did he play . Well, Martin Luther king, jr played he was dressed an enslaved boy and sat in the front row of the choir. The entire choir was dressed in slave togs and they performed for this all white audience of these rich benefactor theres these rich moviegoers. Clark gable had flown in on a private jet. This was the biggest event in atlanta history at that time. And its celebrated slave culture and daddy king decided to bring his choir. And alberta king, his wife, led that choir. And friend, the daily june dobbs told that the rest of much of the black community was furious with daddy king for allowing his choir to perform at the premiere of gone with the wind. But daddy king, the response was a lot of that movie true. And its a kind of a big deal. I think he got caught up in the excitement of the celebrity, but the thought and theres a picture of it, you cant quite make out young luther king jr, but you see the children in the front at the hollywood premiere. And Martin Luther king is one of those children in the front row. Well, aunt june actually, and his meinhardt aunt, one of the six dobbs sisters who are all outstanding women in their own right, john wesley dobbs, whom a street is named him, as you might know, had six daughters, and they all excelled. I mean, its mother was a french professor, but a grandfather. Dobbs was very upset about the king family performing in this performance, and june said that basically daddy king led a combination of protest and accommodation. Yeah. To be able to operate in the city and to develop grace with the white leaders. Grandfather dobbs didnt think that was a good enough reason. But anyway, well move on from that or get. It now in his he he actually ended up going to seminary right tim at school of ministry and had a have a little problem in terms of he was an speaker but his writing left much to be desired and so often had a handicap talk about how he. Plagiarized. Well lets just get to it. I didnt want say that. To be blunt here were among friends. Listen, as i said before, i think its important that we acknowledge that our heroes dont have to be perfect or else whos going to expect to be a hero to lead . Whos going to take a position of leadership if . You have to be perfect. None of us are perfect. So he skipped several grades at school. It really set him back. He had to account for it and it affected his his performance all through school. College, and then also think theres a somewhat of a culture there, some experts in the room who can chime in on this or dispute me. But i think preachers dont have the same attitude about plagiarism that professors have because they borrow from other preachers and they repeat. And thats of the beauty of of the of the church. Its part of the beauty of sermons, is that theyre like jazz musicians, they hear a phrase, they borrow a phrase, they make it their own. So Martin Luther king grew up practicing sermons long before he practiced writing high school or college dissertations. So he began plagiarizing at an early age. I the fact that he plagiarized his doctoral dissertation dissertation is well known. It was reported years ago by professors at stanford. I discovered and im pretty sure im the first one to discover this, that he also plagiarized the High School Speech contest that he entered and finished in third place. So the Martin Luther king finished third place in a public speaking contest. Shocking enough. Yes, maybe if he hadnt plagiarized it and written his own, he would have won. Yeah, he got bad grades in english. I was surprised at that. Im going to move on now because theres so much to cover. And i want to kind of get to as much as i can. King was influenced by several great minds, like Reinhold Niebuhr and philosophers Friedrich Nietzsche and gandhi. Of course, in addition to the religious ministers that he studied who were some of the most lasting influences, do you believe on dr. King and why . Well, if were just talking academics, i was gonna say jesus obviously is probably the most important influence other than his parents, that maybe more than his parents, but Benjamin Mays, morehouse, has to be at the very of the list. I would put Benjamin Mays as a greater influence than thoreau and, niebuhr and gandhi, even because Benjamin Mays offered a vision that was just subtly different enough from what father offered, from what Martin Luther king senior offered, Martin Luther king jr was like a lot of us a little embarrassed by his father. He was a country preacher. His grammar wasnt good. His speeches were very and his sermons were very emotional, you know, he shouted and he stomped. And young martin felt like he wanted to be where sufficed cater than that and he wanted to be more of an outright activist. He wanted to make if he if he was going to be a priest a preacher, he was going use it to fight jim crow, not just to lead his community and uplift his community, but to get on the front lines in fight against crime, Benjamin Mays offered a vision of how to do that. Benjamin mays combine and the preaching and the and the intellectual rigor and the discipline to to do something with yourself, he said. You know, Morehouse Morehouse men had a responsibility. And i think Martin Luther king really felt like thats the kind of man he wanted to be. Well, Benjamin Mays was my husband. Maynards hero also is one of mine, too i met him. He was a wonderful person. And my favorite quote is from benjamin images, and it is and im sure that dr. King probably heard this, too, if you believe in something, you must act on it. If dont act on it, its not a belief. Its just an opinion. I like that. Well, all right. I dont mean not in my book. Im making a list of all the things that are not in the book. And on the list. All right, whatever. Were familiar with a lot of the names associated with dr. King, ralph abernathy, who was his best male friend. Of course, you know. Bayard rustin. I mean, i thought he was outstanding. A philip randolph, thurgood marshall. We mentioned Benjamin Mays. And then there were people like Stanley Levison, which we i never really heard very much about until i read your book. Talk about stanley levitan. Levison emerged as the leader of the montgomery bus boycott. Immediately people began to say, this guy is magic. This guys got power. Hes hes hes lighting up the media. He people are flocking to him saying, we need to get this guy to help us expand this beyond montgomery. So literally, people like Bayard Rustin, people like Lillian Smith just arrive in montgomery. We need you and were going to, you know, what can we do to help take this beyond montgomery . And one of the people who contact is this white businessman with with and long lasting communist ties named Stanley Levison. And Stanley Levison goes on to become one of kings closest friends and best advisors for the rest of life. He ghost writes a lot of kings for him and they have these long, late night conversation. The king was not a good sleeper. Hed be up two or three in the morning with ideas racing through his head, and he could call Stanley Levison probably more than anyone else to these ideas around and its a fascinating thing. You know, friendship, its strictly an activist, intellectual friendship, not like, you know, ralph abernathy, with whom, you know, he would die in every know whenever hes in atlanta who sunday dinners and all that. Well levison said that king was the most powerful figure in the country without a political a labor union or a wealthy. Behind him. That that was significant. I thought was significant. But Stanley Levison also brought some problems, him being his strong connection with the communism. How did that affect dr. King and did he eventually try to distance himself maybe from he was warned and over again by the kennedys. You got cut, levison, out of your life. If you because J Edgar Hoover is breathing down your neck and hes upset that youre and they thought it was a real for them too. Its not that the kennedys werent just blaming hoover. They felt like they could all be tarred with the communist brush because they were because king was had this association not just with levison, but with several people within the organization. And its its silly because there were former communists all over america at this point, right. And including people who worked around the white house. Right. Right. So but but it became an obsession for J Edgar Hoover jr and it led in part thats one of the reasons that hoover became obsessed with really destroying king. It began with the communism and with the fact that king dared to criticize the fbi. Yes. King said that the fbi had a problem because it had no black agents in south, no black fbi agents operating in the south. They were supposed to be helping to protect the civil rights marchers, the activists. But how could when they were all white and they were all in bed, basically with the white police and sheriffs departments in, the southern towns in which they were working, and most of them were kkk members, many of them were kkk members. So when king said this J Edgar Hoover, who is famously sensitive to criticism, became irate. How this barrhead as he liked to. King how dare guy criticize me . And and thats really big part of why the entire weight of the federal governments Law Enforcement bureau came down on one moral leader. Those are some of the strong men that surround it. Dr. King, tell me about the strong women who worked there skin off the bones. Dont let me get personal here and who oftentimes were subjugated, lesser roles in the sclc, especially. Talk about that environment and including carter scott king was. Yeah well make it play yeah. The Civil Rights Movement was led primarily by black baptist preachers, who grew up in a culture that did not really womens leadership. And people like dorothy cotton, ella baker, Septima Clark talked about it all the time that they were valued as foot soldiers. But there was no chance that they were ever going to be given positions of leadership. And ella baker, in particular was incredibly qualified. She was offered was briefly the the acting head of the sclc but executive director shes the acting executive director and she she would have been a great choice for permanent executive director job. But it was never even in ruston and prevailed on king to hire her because he had no intention yeah they knew how good and thats again because they are not from the skinhead culture of preachers who had even more bias than most of most of america had bias towards women in position of leadership in the fifties and sixties. But i think in the religious community, that bias even deeper and and it held the moving back and they were they were fortunate to have some of those people that i just mentioned working in the fields and doing a lot of the grunt work, organizing, educating, teaching nonviolent classes, knocking on doors, working on voter registration. They played an enormous role, but they did not play the kind of role that they could have. And the same is true for Coretta Scott king, because scott king was a more experienced activist than martin king when they met. And i believe that thats probably the thing that most attracted him to her is that she came not with the passion to fight for change, but with the experience. And antioch college, she had been involved in the acp. Shed been involved in local protests. A barbershop wouldnt cut black peoples hair. Shed been to the progressive Partys National convention. So. King when he meets her in boston dating, hes dated a lot of women. Hes dating a lot of women at the time he meets coretta and he says this is the one this youre one im going to marry tells her on the first date why shes beautiful brilliant but so were some of the other women. But i believe it was because she had that experience as an activist and that really excited him, but he didnt really take advantage of it, didnt he . Did not. I mean she, he wanted her at home to take care of the kids basically. Yeah. And it just goes to show how deep some of our bias and blind spots run is still there. And its still there. Yeah. Yeah. Although it was not like that. And i know that and i believe you, but in coretta case, it was. It was really painful because she beseeched him over and over and she writes in her own memoir about this conversation where shes now got four children at home and she says to him, you know, i feel called to do this work, to. And he says, youre called the way im called in anyway. You have to stay home with the children. And she says, i accepted that. And over and over again. And i found these tapes that she made when she was working on her memoir. I again, i think im the first person to have access to these tapes. Right after her husbands assassination, she began working on a memoir and she sat down with a ghostwriter and an editor and she recorded what she wanted to say in the book. And over and over again in these tapes, she says, and that, too, i accepted and you just, you know, your heart just goes out to her and montgomery said that dr. King found his voice and his purpose following the montgomery bus boycott and he said his purpose was not to instruct, to educate his purpose was to prophesies. What did he mean by that . Prophesies, i think king, when he his voice discovered that he was offering a vision of the future, he was not just asking people to follow him. He was asking them to envision an america that did not yet exist in, america that had been promised in the declaration of independence. And he was asking all of america, White America included, to share this vision, to see that this was possible. So in a way, hes evoking this image of what we can be as a country and and its and its its magical in a way because it combines these things that we all can sort of agree. We believe in the words in the bible, the words in the constitution. So hes hes i think when when hes prophesying is is a future where america actually lives up to what it says its going to do to begin with. Well, by 1964, at the sclc was pretty much in disarray. It was broke. The leadership was uncertain. People were squabbling between each other. And then there was the competition with the naacp and snick and other groups. So and one in particular, i know it was diane nash that women didnt get credit. I noticed dianes name because i think you said she was one of the only people she would not have had to bring up. Right. Well, i got i interviewed. Im just kidding. Okay. Okay. So i interviewed almost everybody who i wanted to interview. I worked really hard to try to. And there were some people in the audience here who helped me make connections to get interviews. Dana bash is the only person who i was not able to get to talk to me and. The reason she wouldnt touch me, she was very nice about it. She said, im tired of all the stories about the Civil Rights Movement centering on dr. King. Hes he was a great leader. But there were a lot of great leaders. And this he the Movement Made king. King did not make the movement. Thats what she said. And i completely respect that opinion. And i can understand why she, you know, it was more of a, you know, a symbolic im not going to be help you with this book because i am i dont want to see more focus on dr. King. So he got a lot of criticism about that, taking away the spotlight from the movement and i out a lot, trying to raise money for slc. And of course, the focus was on him for that. But but there was a point of contention. Well, several really turn around tuesday quickly, if we can talk about that, because a lot of people well, you tell them what it was and the question was, did Martin Luther king sell out . So what was the you can make an argument that dr. King sold out in that he was often criticized. He was in a very difficult position. Obviously, he is too conservative for a lot of people and too radical for others. And hes often trying to balance all these interests. One of the things that i love about dr. King that fascinates me is that hes arguably our greatest protest leader of all time, and he hates conflict. It comes from his from his childhood. I think maybe from being the middle child, but also from having a domineering father. Hes hes afraid of making enemies. He doesnt want anybody be mad. And thats not usually a great quality for a leader because you have to make hard decisions. So when it comes to Something Like turnaround tuesday, hes got the president and the attorney general saying you cant march across that bridge and hes got john lewis and snick and all these other people who people who have flown from all over the country taking busses and trains to join this protest. Were expecting to walk across that bridge with him in the lead and king is trying figure out what if we just go to the bridge and make a prayer and then turn around . Hes trying to find a way to please everybody. And you cant. And i think some people view that one of history basically he aborted the aborted the march and he went to a certain point and then. Right. And stopped and a lot people felt like he he sold out. So what happened in chicago . I mean, it looked like the movement almost turned a made a diversion when he went north, when he went to trying to to work on civil rights there. What happened in chicago . Why wasnt he king . You know, we often tell the story of king as if in the last years of his life he became more radical and then he began to focus on northern segregation and northern racism. I make the contention and others have written this as well, that he was radical all along and he calling out northern racism all along. Just we werent listening because he was making big headlines in places birmingham and selma. And thats where the news was really focused. But as he traveled the country, raising money all those years and as he went to los angeles, chicago and San Francisco and philadelphia, he wasnt raising money there by saying, we need your help in birmingham, was saying, youve got a problem here, too. You know, you northern who you know, im asking you for money, but you need to turn around, look at yourselves in the mirror because youre not much better. So he goes to chicago in 1966, moves into the west side of chicago and north lawndale, an apartment there with coretta, and tries to make the point, tries to demonstrate because one of the things that king realizes is that hes great at focusing media. Hes wherever goes, the cameras come. So if he goes to chicago, he can call attention to the fact that Chicago Schools are just as segregated as birminghams chicagos housing, especially its its low income is just as segregated as anything youll find in the south. So hes going to chicago to try to call attention to that. But he finds that hes up against forces that hes not accustomed dealing with, that the black community for one thing, isnt as united. There are thousands upon thousands of black City Employees who are loyal to the mayor who wont march him, who wont join him, and his message becomes a lot less clear to the media what is it he really wants . So, mayor in chicago basically offers king these compromises to make them go away and then doesnt fulfill any of the promises that he made once. King is and thats why my hometown, chicago, is still probably the most segregated city in america. King proposed to what he called a new emancipate and proclamation. And it was formalized, as a matter of fact, on may 17th, todays date in 1962, he presented it to president kennedy. But jfk didnt quite favor it. And i think that really hurt dr. Martin luther king. Do you think that might have had something to do with the trajectory, the movement . Theres no question about it. King was really disappointed with jfk. King felt like kennedy owed the black community some action after of the closest election in American History that some say was swung by voters and king felt like kennedy was to act up because kennedy was concerned about reelection and worried that he might lose some of the black the some of the white vote in the south if he gave in, too, on civil rights. So king comes to kennedy with this second emancipation proclamation on the anniversary of the first one, and kennedy basically ignores it and i think king was bit was deeply disappointed by just about everything kennedy did until he was forced by some of kings protests to to take a more public stand and to really speak out. But king had to really put his feet to the fire to get that done. Speaking of putting his feet to the fire, the fbi, we got to talk about that. And they they were obviously out to destroy king. But someone said to king that he bill the cat. What does that mean when king criticized edgar hoover J Edgar Hoover then began this investigation, wiretaps on kings home phone, his office phone, the phones of Stanley Levison, Bayard Rustin, clarence jones, all wiretapped, fbi listening, endless, you know, most of his conversations and at one point, hoover tells some reporters that king is the most dangerous man in america, that king is shocked by this and he doesnt know what to do. Should he go to J Edgar Hoover and again, he doesnt really like conflict. He suggests that we just maybe he should go and have a session with him and try to talk things through, make peace and Bayard Rustin recommends the opposite. He says, lets build a cat. Lets just go after it. Lets make him an enemy. Make him a foe. Lets so knows where, where, where were coming from and he knows what and we know what hes up to. Lets, you know, lets lets attack. And king wont do it. King just, you know. Go ahead. Oh, no, no. Im sorry. I didnt mean to cut you off, but i. But i have a bone to with the kennedys, not but Robert F Kennedy approved the tapping the why would do that . I why would he do that. Well, for one thing, J Edgar Hoover was a very powerful man. He had information on the kennedys, too. Thats what i thought. And thats exactly what Robert Kennedy talked about, that in in his own oral history with the kennedy library, he talks about the fact that he know if it was true, but he said hoover had information on a Hotel Incident that threatened to use against them. But i also think that in general, there was a culture fear around communism that was part of it and fear of J Edgar Hoover. So the kennedys kowtow and gave in. Even though Robert Kennedy like to think of himself as a great supporter of the Civil Rights Movement and we could go on and talk about lbj because i think in some ways he was worse. I think he encouraged it. He didnt just thats what i had a question. Is he a friend or foe . Because on one hand, he was to Martin Luther king about being helpful, and then the other hand, it was like he didnt stop the fbi from doing things that were absolutely vicious and uncalled for. I think lbj is both a friend and foe. Hes a friend and that he helps pass two of the most important. Well bills in American History. And and he cant do that without. King but one of the really interesting things is that when you listen to the phone calls and lbj, all of his phone calls and the are anyone can listen to them on the internet. Now, at the lbj library. And in the beginning, when. King first when lbj takes office calls king immediately reaches out to him and says, were going to need to work together. And hes calling him. Martin theres a very warm, friendly conversation. And over the next couple of years you hear that going cold, you hear him starting to call him dr. King, reverend king and the friendliness is gone. And thats because all the while lbj is getting a steady sometimes one or two memos, a week from directly from hoover to the president with the just tawdry gossip. Theres no reason the president needs to this stuff except that clearly both men are enjoying keeping tabs on this man and mocking him for his for his for his weakness. And, of course, Martin Luther kings stand on vietnam did not make johnson very happy. And that was really the the tipping point, because the relationship had already gone bad. And then when king speaking out on vietnam, thats when i believe kennedy really begins. Im sorry, lbj begins to see mlk as a foe, as this guy is out to hurt me now and thats when its the relationship is pretty much destroyed. Lots of turmoil it brings me to the kings state of mind, especially toward the end. Coretta scott king and others were very concerned about kings bouts of depression. There were signs of it in his early childhood, even. Was it true that he actually, for real, tried to suicide twice when he was a teenager or was that just acting . Well, he jumped of a second story window twice. Now you tell me the 13 years old, his grandmother had first been hurt. The first time he jumped. Second time was when his grandmother died. Is that a call for attention . Is it just a cry of agony . Is it a Suicide Attempt . Very hard to say, but it was clearly a very emotional act from someone who was deeply, deeply grieved. And all his life, he you know, he suffered emotionally. And its something that, you know, back then it was very difficult to talk about. Public figures never talked about their their Mental Health issues. But in week, if you go back and read even the newspaper coverage, if you go back and read coretta is books, the signs are all there. Coretta calls it depression and. When when Martin Luther king found out that he won the nobel peace prize, where was he . He was in the hospital. And when reporters came to interview him. So what are you doing in the hospital . He said, im being treated for exhaustion. And now then she powerful. She the nobel prize made it even worse, though because that just put more pressure on her. Thats right the demands were even greater on his she was worried about that she said that after that, even in the immediate aftermath of winning the prize, she well, she worried what that was going to do to the pressure on him and. Then the gallup polls started coming out in 1964. He was the number four that my person in the world 1965 it slipped to fifth 1966 he was dropped completely from the list. Im sure that hurt. And then mike wallace asked king if people were getting tired of the Civil Rights Movement. The New York Times said, quote, the Civil Rights Movement has collapsed. What happened . What and how was king dealing with all of this you . You know, as i said earlier, he was always too conservative for some and to radical for others. But as the Civil Rights Movement progressed and as more aggressive voices began to be heard, stokely carmichael, malcolm x wright king had a hard time because people felt like he was weak and yet, you know, the thing that think bothered him the most was that he felt like even his friends and advisers didnt understand him. And theres this incredible phone call that, again, we know because the fbi was recording it where hes talking to Stanley Levison right after his speech about vietnam, riverside church, april 4th, 1967, and has just delivered what i believe is his greatest and its its his greatest speech because it together everything hes been talking about his entire life, everything the bible taught him, hes saying that america a serious problem, not just racism, not just with poverty, not just with warfare, but with all of these things. And that we faced a moral collapse, a society, if we didnt address and if we didnt if we werent true to our beliefs. When we speak of the truth in the bible, that we were destined to fall, that we were we were doomed. And his one of his best friends whos known him 12 years at this point, Stanley Levison, calls him the next day and says that was a terrible speech. It wasnt you. It didnt sound like. And youre just going to cost us support among all the people who are helping us. Were never going to be able to get any access to the white house again. And king says we have this you know, transcript of this. We know exactly what he said. He says, havent you been listening to me all these years . Oh, well, i might made a political mistake in giving that speech, but i did not make a moral mistake in giving that speech. And here he is, Martin Luther king jr. And still people are questioning him and questioning his morality vision. Earlier we mentioned how he said that his purpose was to prophesies. Boy, he prophesized own death many times. Belafonte tells us stories about a nervous tic. You want to tell that one . Yeah. You belafonte spent like quality time, personal time. Hes one of the few people who i interviewed who i felt like stop to ask dr. King how he was doing. How are you holding up . You know, he would make time just for the two of them to hang out, have some quiet time. There were so many demands him and everybody wanted something. But belafonte was and famous. He wanted to help. He didnt. And he said at one point he noticed that martin, as he called him, had a little tic, like a little, a little almost like a hiccup you couldnt hear unless you were alone in the room with him. It was like a constant swallowing and. It went on for months, maybe years. And then one day when belafonte saw him again, dr. Said it was gone. Belafonte noticed that was gone. And he said, martin, what happened to your tic . Said, i cured it. Theyll say, how do you cure it . So i peace with death. Happy man who was making a movie about Martin Luther king asked him, ill shoot the movie end and he said, do you remember me getting killed . Yeah, thats what little abbey had getting killed, not me dying. Me getting killed. He knew. I mean, his home had been bombed. Hed been and had been shot had he been stabbed, the chest, it was not. And after king, after kennedys assassination, he turned Coretta Scott king and said, this is going to happen to me. Ive been this mean got over here telling me to wrap it up. So but there are a few things that i could take your time all night. Toward the end, we kind of mentioned he started to get more radical, starting to sell, more like malcolm x. As a matter of fact, talking about reconsider section of an entire American Society and reparations even. Talk about kings view, what reparations could be or be in this country. We forget. And again, talk about how we teach. I have a dream. Starting in kindergarten, we forget the first half of that speech where dr. Said america had made a broken promise to black people and that it was time to pay up. He talked about reparations. He said that you cannot calculate the amount of income this country generated has been generated from slavery and sharecropping. And it is and it would be fairly simple to come up with a calculation that would pay back at least some of that. And he talked about guaranteed income for people, guaranteed jobs, things that were still talking about today, prophesized soon after he after king died. Richard nixon did propose guaranteed income. So it was not was not pie in the sky. It was not crazy liberal, you know, socialist propaganda. It was it was realistic. And it still is realistic after chicago. King felt that, quote, most americans are unconscious, racist. Do you agree with it then and now . Yeah, continuing kings legacy. Are we going to be able to do it or it will have to be adapted or changed in some way . Is the king relevant today as he was 60 years ago . I king is as relevant, if not more. And i think that there are ways to make his legacy come to life. But its only if we actually study the mans real words read his writing, not just the familiar speeches that are on television. We dont teach anything but letter from birmingham jail and most public schools. And letter from birmingham jail is terrific. And its. But. But king had a lot more to say. And books are just not widely distributed, not widely taught. I went to the washington, d. C. They didnt have any of his books for sale. We kings words. And we need to discuss kings life again, not just turn them into a monument and not just celebrate them on the holiday once a year near the conclusion of your book, you at the mass, you spoke about the National Monument in washington, d. C. And you surmised, quote, in halloween, as in hallowed be thy and halloween king, we have hallowed, hallowed him made him empty, hallowed what if you better explain that . Well, we celebrate, you know, mattress sales, the kings birthday, you know, we we we talk about i have a dream as if its, you know, just holding hands, as if, you know, black children and white children could play together. That would be enough. King was so complicated. He was so brave. He was asking us to reconsider the very structure of our society. And he got us to a point where it seemed like maybe we were ready to think about changing who we were. Maybe we were at a point where and i think, you know, its crystal clear, like after the march on washington, that americans are really to rethink things. And weve backed away from that. Weve hollowed him out to the extent we we dont really embrace ideas anymore. And thats what i meant by that. You close your book with some final words from king. It reads, quote, our very survival depends on our ability to stay awake, to adjust to new ideas, to remain vigilant and face the challenge. Change. What i found interesting about this was his use of the word awake and 1963 a grocery a black grocery worker who was enthused by kings leadership said quote the people are now not. We have woke up. Wow. Jonathan, can we stay awake in this woke culture that we have today . We have to. What choice do we have . Because, you know the way the woke is defined in the dictionary now an excessive political correctness. Im not playing with that definition. All right. All right. Okay. Good. Well, it is usual. Its been a pleasure. Its been to see so much interesting. I think we did okay by having valerie do the press. In. Honestly, i could listen to them talk night long, but i want to give you an opportunity. Did i ask jonathan some questions . And if youll wait . Yeah. Raise your hand and wait for trey to come around with the microphone. Right. Right over here in the middle of trying. The king family cooperate with you on this. You never mentioned their name other than coretta. This whole evening, the big question. No, its a fair question. The king children did not want to do interviews. They did not respond to my requests. Some of the nieces and nephews did speak to me and i the. Thats thats the best i could do in this case. The king children did not did not give me interviews. I have high. Thank you so much for your interview tonight. Mrs. Coretta scott king, to make sure that young people got to understand the words of her husband in 1999, she a group of us to make sure that the who arrived at the king center were diverse and they represented her husbands words. When i think about montgomery. Rosa parks, december first, 1955. That moment king emerges as the leader. How is it in your. Because i did hear the word emerge. How you feel as if at that moment they felt, lets go get that young preacher, dexter avenue baptist church. He doesnt know any better. All right. I want you to address that. And then also secondly, it is troubling to see king kneeled and around and not cross Edmund Pettus bridge. It was tough because diverse clergy who flew in reeb and james reeb and lee jackson and louisa viola lewis. So they lost their lives. But dr. Kings life was not in vain. So how do we how do we take those moments where we say lets look at our leader as as courageous but human . One december 1st, 1955. And then at that bridge where king said he knelt, but he had to turn around. So the first question why king emerged at that moment, why he was chosen. Youre right. He was chosen in part because he was new in town and he hadnt made enemies yet. And there were other leaders who had been there a while. They worried that if they chose one of those leaders, the others would resist cooperating. So. King because he was new in town because he had a reputation for being a great speaker, was asked to be the spokesman of the movement. At first, he was not asked to be the the president of the montgomery improvement. He but when he found his voice, when when the crowds response ended to him in that way, it became clear that he had the power, that the potential to lead. So i would say that he responded to that, not knowing what he was getting into. He was not looking to become a leader of anything. He had just turned down invitation from the naacp in alabama because he had a lot on his plate. You know, a new baby and a doctoral dissertation and a new church that he was still getting to know. So not looking to leave, but he felt called and he started leading. He felt compelled in part by of course, by the voice of god, which literally he said came to him, but also by the voices of those people who called back to him when he when he preached and who became his his fervent. And as for moment, when he knelt and did not satisfy by those followers in the same way, i think its just a reminder that he was human, that he was flawed, and that he he had moments of doubt. And that was a moment doubt. And, you know, levison, Stanley Levinson talked to him once when when dr. King was talking about, you know, his frailties and some of the rumors that were going around and so forth. And he said to dr. King, you do not have to be a perfect man. You just have to a perfect leader. I was like, well, yeah and i would argue that if you want to be a perfect leader, that the best leader you can be and the best man. Good point. Good point. Good point. Yeah. Was there a particular information or effect that led you to raise your esteem of dr. King even more in, your research and if you dont mind me asking this, ill love the luckiest man. And what led to turn to write about gehrig . Okay. The first question i can sit here all night and give you hundreds of examples. Things that king did, small things he did that inspired me, the way he treated. He remained humble. He would spend time with people who needed attention. He was still the pastor to his in atlanta and in montgomery even as he became famous. But i think the big thing that inspired me more than anything else is that this man did not have to keep going after hed been shot at and his house had been bombed and stabbed in the chest. And after the fbi began coming down on him over and over again. He had moments where he could have hit pause. He could have taken a year off and gone on sabbatical, written a book. But he felt that he had he was called by god and he and and he not only kept going, he doubled down. He became more courageous. It have been easy just to stick to Voting Rights and. Keep working on where he had some success. But no, he goes to chicago, he goes to los angeles. He speaks out against the vietnam war. That kind of moral courage to me is, you know, beyond inspiring. And it just spending that much time thinking about the choices that he made, you know, forever changed me. And ill to you afterwards about lou gehrig, because my brain just wont go there right now. Thank. Stand again and again. Right. I often think about what america we would have without the loss the early loss of lincoln, kennedy and Martin Luther king. Could you speak to the momentum that was cut off after his death . You know something