Transcripts For CSPAN2 Laura 20240703

Excited to be welcoming Laura Meckler. She is a National Education writer for the Washington Post, where covers education across the country as well as National Education policy and politics. She previously reports on the white house president ial politics, immigration and health care for wall street journal. As as health and social policy for the associated press. Her honors include nieman fellowship and livingston award for National Reporting, and she was part of the that won a george polk for justice reporting and she is a fellow at washingtonian was laura was due to be here today but instead weve got Jesse Holland which is just as good a nationally renowned journalist, educator and author with, a portfolio of stories that challenge perspectives, reshape narratives, inspire change. Hes the author of the Award Winning Nonfiction Books the invisibles, the untold story africanamerican slaves inside the white and black men built the capital. Discovering African American history. And around washington, d. C. , jesse is a weekend host of washington journal and cspan, and the associate director of the school of media and Public Affairs at the George Washington university. So please me in welcoming Laura Meckler and jesse Jesse Holland. Wow, this is quite the turnout. This this is great, isnt it . Yeah, i was very much so. I mean, not so great for the people who dont seats, but, you know, really, really great from this point of view. Yeah, well, well keep engaging. Look at it. Engage again. Its interesting them you know theyll be light on their feet. Exactly. So, first of all, i to say thank you to laura for inviting me to be here with her, i was lucky enough to see it early. Copy of this book. And if you want to know what i, think about it. Just look on the back of my blurb is the last one on it. So. So im so thank you so much for. Allowing me to see it early copy of and for the work that youve done here. So were going to have a quick conversation. Well take a few minutes and well talk about the book, the process of writing it, but well ask for your questions so well ill ill stop talking after a while and ill turn it over to because you probably have better questions than i do and ive already learned there are several people from Shaker Heights, the audience and know yall have questions for her. So but i want to start this conversation off by asking you, laura, why did you decide write this book . Why was time to explore dream town now . Well, its interesting because i was never somebody who particular wanted to write a book. It wasnt something i aspired to. I was perfectly happy being newspaper reporter and journalist. I in fact, i people talked about exactly what it took to write. It sounded wholly unappealing and. I thought, its not for me. But as i was reporting, story started at the journal and ultimately ran in the Washington Post about Shaker Heights and relationship with issues of race. I just started to become just more and more attached. The subject. Its something ive been thinking about my whole from growing up there and and it started feeling like, you know, this could be a book. This is a story that has never been told in a book, although it has been told in many other forms and documents and Academic Work lots of journalism and in and around shaker and i just felt like this was a story needed to be told. It both sort has this incredible history that is very about how this community embraced integration over and very different from how it was founded evolve moved into this integration pioneer and then it has a very modern story as well about sort of this quest for Racial Equity today, especially in the schools seeing to, you know, whether black kids are getting the same high quality education and same opportunities as white kids there. So what but what made you the person to tell this book . Whats your connection to Shaker Heights . Why are you the person to tell this story to the rest of the country . Well, im from Shaker Heights. I grew up in Shaker Heights. So thats the first the first answer. There are i am the only journalist from Shaker Heights, though not by not by a long shot, but so i was very grounded in the material and i have been covering education for the last five years. So ive also very grounded in sort of the National Issues around around schools. And of the book is heavily, not exclusively but heavily about education. And it was just something that i really found myself thinking deeply about. And i thought that i had something to say so other people could would probably also do a great job with, this wonderful material. But, you know, they they, they can write the next book about explain to us how you landed on the title of dream town. What does that mean for you . What does that mean for the story that youre telling . So title was initially inspired, a quote in an article written by cosmopolitan magazine in 1963. This article came about because at the time Shaker Heights was the wealthiest city in america and they wrote a story, the headline on the cover of the magazine was the good life in, Shaker Heights, and it was this description of essentially opulence and the suburban dream. And theres a line that says this the story of an American Dream town. Come true. And i thought about that. And then that same year in 1963, of course, dr. King, about a different kind of dream. And thats also a dream that shaker midnight was in the beginning of at the time, but has also been trying for many years to make come true. So for it was the combination of those two ideas. Could one place be both things at once . And and ill just say one more note about the title, which is that for me, its, its when i think about it, its less about this is a dream town. This is a Perfect Place has come. Everything has come true. You know go here and all your dreams will be fulfilled. Not that simple. It never is that simple. But it is a its to me the word dream is almost more of a verb. It is a place that is dreaming. It is, a place that has these dreams and is constantly working on them. And im sure well get into that as we go before we get into the substance of the book, which once again, i was lucky enough to read an early copy of it. Tell us about your reporting and writing process. Many interviews that you do. How much did you spend working on this book . So i had done a lot of work on it already for. The article that ran in the post, the article ran there, a lot of journalists in the room. It was a 6000 word article which is long for a newspaper article. By far the longest one i had ever published. I had interviewed than 100 people at that point i thought, well, you know, im halfway there. Well, it turned out i was not quite halfway there. I was little bit out of the way there. I did count them. I ended up interviewing more than 250 people. Some of them were main characters in the story who i talked repeatedly, many, many interviews of them were kids sitting in a cafeteria and i went around went around the table and from, you know, five people at once. But lot of different perspectives. It was also heavily documented. There have a heavy reliance on documents, especially well, not just for the early history, for some of the mid history as well. Theres a lot wonderful resources in the cleveland area where the groups parent and Community Associations, the housing office, all of these different institutions have those records have all been preserved and, available and were just found many fascinating things in i looked at according to my evernote program. Well over a thousand documents. Wow. Now just for the audience, its knowledge. I used to teach Nonfiction Book writing and go to college for years. So ive talked to many, many authors and i always ask them this question for future authors. Tell us about your writing process. When did find time to write . Whens that sweet . In the day where words just flowed for you. After my kids went to bed, thats basically what it was for me. I am a night person, so every night at around. 9 00 and rather than you know settling in for another episode of tank, i was at my computer writing and, you know, it was one of these things and i think a lot of us probably had this experience or just regular journalism as well. Where i started out with, i knew how many words i had to have sort of divided that by the number of chapters, think, okay, i get to this point. And then there came a point where it was, oh, this is, this is too long. I better start, id better start cutting. So it was mostly at night and you know, of course weekends and wherever i could find i took a couple of short book leaves, but a lot of it was done on my own time. Honestly, that thats the way it is. Most writers when people ask me, when do i write, is usually between 11 p. M. And 2 a. M. Yeah, thats the only quiet time in the house. Yeah, because im a father. So yeah. Luckily my kids were a little younger, so they went to bed all before 11. Otherwise i would have been completely in trouble. So lets talk. Lets delve into the book. You start with the founding of Shaker Heights. Tell us a little bit about that story, how it sets up what we saw as the for the of the book. Sure. So was developed by the pair of brothers ive ever read about. Their names were mj and o. P. Van swearingen. They were raised poverty themselves and went on. But very ambitious. Went on to become essentially real estate and creating community that was meant to be as elite as they came. The sort of the best of the best with exacting standards. It was a Garden Suburb that was modeled over the idea that you were not just living near a park, but in a park. There were expansive lawns front of the homes, all the houses look. Just so there were rules about, what materials you could use, what the garage had to look like, what color scheme you could have. There was no industry. There was just a few little commercial areas, land set aside for schools, for a country club. The idea was that this was to be for the the the the cream of the crop in the city of cleveland and its an inner ring suburb. It joins the of cleveland at the time this was the sticks but they were as families were moving out wealthy families were moving out of cleveland and into this area. Thats thats what was creating. These brothers were just very odd. They like an eight bedroom mansion, but they shared a bedroom with each their own single twin bed. They were basically had no social life. They were just basically about work. All the time and just never wanted any press. Didnt show up to their own events. Theyre just very odd people, but they they created had this vision and they saw it through. And it was also, we should say, given given the subject of the book, a overtly racist place as well, that you could not it was meant for white people. Black people could get in. They were drummed out if they to get in. Early on there were. Covenants on the deeds. The covenants did not specifically say who wasnt allowed. You had to get permission from the band square and company. If wanted to sell and they made sure who that who was allowed and who was not. That seems be an unlikely origin for a town that becomes known for trying to reach a racial equality. How do we get from a for wealthy white elites to the Shaker Heights were talking about. Yeah thats why. And that is in fact, why its so important to understand that history, appreciate what happened next. So the early black families who moved in were drummed out. They did not were not able to stay. But then in the mid 1950s, there were few black families who managed various ways, various very creative ways to buy property in was actually the city of. But the Shaker Heights School System, which was a swath of the city of cleveland thats in the Shaker School district. And the the initial was just like it had been 30 years earlier when a black family arrived a meeting an urgent meeting at the elementary. What are we going to do about the socalled undesirables as the lovely term that was used . I think they thought they were being clever by not actually black people. So under rebels. No, its just not were not against black people. Were just against undesirable people anyway. But theres Something Different happen there. And in fact, i should also say soon after one of the houses of one of the black families that was under construction was firebombed and the garage was destroyed. And the response to this, though, was different than what had happened 30 years earlier. There were white People Living there who were horrified by this who did not want to be what their community was they want. They they wanted a different path and they decided to do something is actually both very ordinary and perhaps somewhat, which was to get to know each other. They just started out with black clubs where they would get together for barbecues. And then this evolved into a Community Association. This neighborhoods knows a lot, though, and there actually are a couple level kids here. I know at least. And this evolved into a Community Association that decided to work, actively work against the forces of systemic racism that were keeping this, this and other white neighborhoods white which im sorry, i misspoke. They decided to work against. They initially tried to keep it all white, but once black people arrived, then the Real Estate Agents and the banks did, everything they could to essentially help that neighborhood flip block bust them, scare white people into leaving in the beginning, if you are a black family, you couldnt get a loan to move into a white neighborhood. Once the neighborhood started. If you were a white family, you couldnt get loan to move into that neighborhood. It was a bad investment. It was risky, quote unquote. And this group of of families, these these pioneers and both white and black decided that they were going to fight back against this. So they essentially created their own housing service. They recruited they advertise, and they brought they celebrate their wins. They manifested success. Think its fair to say before they even had it . And slowly the numbers started to change and white families started moving in and that eventually ethos just sort of spread to the rest of the city and it eventually changed the very identity of the city well. I grew up in the south in 1970s and the first half of that story sounds very. But the second half is the part where everyones working together is bit different from my experience in the south. What was so different about neighborhood . What made that happen . Who made that happen . Well, i think it was a combination of the fact that initial group of love, though, i think is the was the most important people. They now keep in mind, you know, this is as the Civil Rights Movement really gaining force, they saw themselves as kin. There were a of jewish families there who also there were a lot of who were active, the Civil Rights Movement nationally and the families who were living there felt that that part of their calling as well, they they just there was something also putting aside their sort of moral interest in that there was also sort of a shared class interest to it as well in that they didnt want to move. They didnt want to leave, and they wanted they saw a kinship with these families. These were these these black families who moved in were incredibly accomplished people. They were. Had a lot and they had a lot in common as well. And they were able to see that. And that, i think, was the basis of of the work that they did together. One of the things that impressed me when i read the early copy of the book, i think i might have actually told you this is that many of these stories are always told from the white perspective and people are always interviewing the white families about what happened. You actually talk to some of the black as well. How did you ensure that their voices were authentic and, what you were writing . How did you ensure that their stories are actually being included in this and theyre being represented fairly in this story . Well, thats something, of course, as journalists, that is our job in general to do to interview people who are both that we have things in common with and also who we have differences with as well. But i was particularly to the fact that i was a white reporter, white journalist writing about these issues, race. And so i was very careful, spend a lot of time with and not just this is true with white people. Well, who i talk to but to make sure i was representing the way especially their family, the way that felt that accurate and authentic to them. So reviewing with them exactly what i was planning to say. You know, spending a lot of time, these were not just like one off interviews for the family, stories that were told. These many conversations over a long period of time. But lets move away the town and talk about the school. So how is all this affecting the School System and what are the parents and the children doing . What are they seeing in the School System as the town is going through all of these changes . Right. So, you know, integration, the of black families is sort of spreading other neighborhoods. And in fact, one particular there was one neighborhood in shaker that did experience rapid white flight. Its called moreland. There were the school became overwhelmingly black, one of nine Elementary Schools and that was just sort of the way it was until the arrival of a superintendent named lawson, who was a very forward looking person. And saw this. Now, this, of course, he arrives in the midsixties. So brown versus board of education is a decade old now not that people necessarily adhering to that order but it is on the books and its part of our national conversation. And he sees whats happening at maryland and says what we really need to do something and he puts forth a voluntary bussing plan. Shaker was never subject to a court order or any at this point time any external pressure as far i know or is able to find they he puts forward a plan and his plan was bus the kids who were in maryland out to and essentially disperse among the majority white elementary. So this was a very forward plan although you know one of the themes of this book that there really are not sort of heroes and villains. These are just like for the most part, people good people with good intentions, trying to do the thing with blind spots as well, making mistakes, even as theyre making progress. And this case, the the families in maryland actually did not want, in one way, bussing plan, not surprisingly, sort of the idea, well, were going to just close your neighborhood school, even though, course, the white schools were just as segregated as theirs was, if not more so. And they wanted it to go both ways, which lessened, pretty much ignored. But then something again that i think is quite extraordinary happened, which was white living in shaker decided that it wasnt fair for it to be a one way bussing plan, either and they spoke up and formed a committee for voluntary two way bussing, volunteered to send their own kids to maryland and thats ultimately once that happened, thats when the plan changed. Right. And they sort of allied with those the families living in maryland and it became a two day voluntary bussing plan, voluntary in both directions. Right. And that really i think that combined with this housing work that had happened in the decade prior, really started to solidify shakurs reputation as a place that was really tackling integration. All right. And this is all great and it sounds wonderful, but when you look at the schools what was the problem that you were seeing there seemed to have been growing a bit of an achievement gap talk about that. Yes, there was. And is a profound racial achievement gap in the Shaker Schools as there is in across the country. I mean, is not by no means unique. But and that was expressed in many ways task grades. But one of the ways that most disturbing ways that it was expressed disproportionate placement and upper courses. So you the enriched classes the honors classes, advanced classes, whatever they called at the time, top level classes really dominated white students and the regular and lower level classes disproportionately filled with black students and the know the district over the years had sort of a split screen response to on one hand they did a lot to try to address some of these things. There were a variety of that were instituted over the years. We could probably spend the whole hour talking about all the things that they did. At the same time, they also sort of excused it. You would hear things them like, well, a lot of the black kids started their education in the city of cleveland so they werent really prepared. But that was sort of the assumption that was made just because a kid starts in cleveland doesnt mean theyre not prepared. You know, maybe some, but not all. Find it by. By means. But everybody got sort of painted that brush and there was there were a lot of sort of justification made and there were complaints this level system, as its called for years, for decades, these complaints. And i was actually i knew that they had been around for a while, but i was surprised how far back they went. Ill just tell one story. Probably the single most surprising moment i had in this was i was looking i was in the basement of the high school looking through some boxes of various types of things and at the very of one of the boxes that was about something completely different. I find academic paper that was written, a graduate of Shaker Heights high, who is now at harvard, and he wrote this paper for a sociology class. And it was just a wholesale takedown. The level system. He was white, the take down of the level system as essentially evolving into something racist and quoting an assistant principal. This is our biggest problem. Now. That in of itself is not that surprising what was surprising is that this when this paper was written it was was written. 1969, 1969, which is before the first busing plan. And when there was still minority of black students in the system it was shocking to me that it went that far. And also, frankly, very sobering and sad to see. Well, one example that you point out, a book thats really sticks out in my mind is one of the africanamerica students in a history class. And finding out that the teacher has to explain to the students what a table of contents is. Well, yeah. So this is emily hooper and. Shes one of the people i write about. She was her u. S. History class when. The teacher says on the first day, you know, boys and girls take out your books. This is the table of contents. And she says out loud, you know, if weve gotten this far without knowing what a table of contents is, were all in. And the teacher basically her to the office and counselor says to her, well, you your only other option is advance u. S. History. And only other option thats her only other choice. And her parents didnt even know that was an option, so. Fine, ill take that. You know, and this this is who is an extraordinarily bright person. She ends up going to yale and, graduating with honors and. So and yet have that. What was she doing in the regular class to start . We start i mean thats question and the and those kinds of stories i just heard over and over again. So Shaker Heights is getting everything right when it comes to integration of the town. How is it going . So wrong now in the schools you know, its its a complicated question and there are a lot of different pieces. Some of it is these factors of implicit bias and systemic racism that course, through all of our institutions and you know, its about making assumptions about what kids can do or what they cant do. And ill tell another story of a girl who i in a she was in honors english class 11th grade. And she says that she was i was listening to her in class she so bright she just had so many wonderful observations and things to say. And afterwards i sort of followed her out and talked to her and said, you know, did ever think about taking ap english instead the honors english. Theres nothing wrong with honors english. Its terrific. But she was really it was like this is a kid who could probably do well in ap. And she said, oh, yeah i was in that for a day. But i looked around and there really werent very many black students and i thought, do i belong here . And so she went to talk to her counselor, and her counselor said. Well, you can go down to honors if you want. And she said, okay, ill do that. And so that story to me illustrates both the fact that there is loneliness for a lot of that a lot of people feel in these classes and that it discourages people. Then theres also the system itself. Why did that counselor say that to her . Why didnt the counselor say to her, you know what, i think you can this and were going to get you support you need and were going to introduce you to another kid whos going to be your buddy in this class. And going to do this together. You know that. Why didnt any of that happen . And this was a few years ago. This isnt this is were not going to call the eighties here. You know. So i think some of it is these these various pieces of implicit bias are are all over the place some of it is economics. The the black population in is a lot less wealthy than the white population. And we know from all sorts of research all over the country that kids who come from families with fewer resources just show up at school, with less capacity to do challenging work. Because, you know, if youre spending the summer, you know, with a summer job than a science camp. Well maybe youre not as prepared for science that when fall comes around. Thats just one small example. You know, if you parents who have the time and the effort, the chutzpah to go to the school and complain on your behalf and do all sorts of things that privileged parents do, you know, that puts you in a different position than somebody whose parents may be working multiple jobs and figuring lot of what a lot of times of your says you know its a Great School District like the schools got it from here when in fact you know i think a lot of us who are parents have realized know you cant you can never do that you have to be on top of all of these things. So theres there are multiple reasons. These are complex questions. Talk a little bit about School Administration and the teachers and how they were involved in the tension between parents, between integration, between the students. There was one confrontation between a teacher and a student that sort of symbolize all of these problems. Yeah. So this was a very upsetting situation that happened in 2018 and this was actually the centerpiece of the article i wrote for the post there was a it was an ap english class, 11th grade english class and there was a black girl who was in the class and she had struggling a little bit early on. Came into class this morning have the assignment right. The teacher sort of spoke to her kind of harshly it in a way that other kids could hear in a way that was very upsetting to the student. And you sort of asking her tough questions. What else are you taking how did you do last year . Who was your teacher questions like that . And and this was an exchange that, depending on how you look at it and many people looked at it very different ways, it was either a teacher trying to help kid get back on track or it was teacher, you know, with this sort of, you know, you its so hard to get black kids to sign for these ap classes knowing that theyll feel lonely in those rooms and is somebody is there and and you know, shes made to feel embarrassed and singled out. What ended up happening after that was that the her mom, the mom submitted a formal complaint charging that the teacher was guilty of bullying and implying that she was guilty of racial discrimination. It led to the teacher was put on leave it to an investigation, a lengthy investigation. And and all of this blew up at a Big Community meeting where, you know, a lot of teachers were feeling like, hey, can i not talk to a student improving their performance without being called a bully . And then then at some point, the conversation shifted to parents saying, wait a second, what are we doing here . You know what . What are our values . And in fact, near the end of this meeting, the girl herself there, her name is olivia. She just jumped up and got onto the stage herself and outed herself as. The person who was in the middle of all of this and asked the question, you know, why . Why havent we addressed this problem . You know, before . So it was all it just brought up, you know, like if theres like, you know, some little scabs all over the place just like took them out, ripped them all off, and just, like, very, very painful, right . But was different about all of this when. I read this book and other communities ive dealt with. It seemed like people in Shaker Heights were willing to talk about it and not instead just pushing it down and hiding it and then waiting the volcano explosion. Shaker heights is nothing, if not to talk about these issues. They are they very engaged. Theres a very engaged Community Talking about race is not taboo by any means. It is something that people in theres a Student Group, the Student Group on Race Relations thats been around for 40 years now. And this what they do, they go into classrooms of Elementary Schools talking to kids about what it mean. What does discrimination mean, what is what is racism, what it mean to be a bystander . What does it mean to be an upstander having . These conversations and getting to know each other and that and they also sometimes lead conversations among as well as they did in the aftermath of this incident. So, yes, this is community that talks about these things with all of the heavy stuff were talking about here. You in your book with a on an optimistic note. Why yeah. Yeah. I mean, its a fair question. One i have asked myself other some other people have read the book and, you know, declared this whole thing is is a failure. And i did sometimes wonder, as was reporting this and writing this, like, what ultimate conclusion would be, is this a story of a place that tried and failed and well, too bad, or is it something more hopeful . And the is i felt something more hopeful doing this because you know live in a country where most most people most communities are not talking about any these issues. In fact, in most parts, most of america, people are in School Districts with other people, poor people usually students of color, are in School Districts with other poor people. And theres no theres theres no cross subsidization. Theres everyones in their own boats. And is it a surprise when you have a community full of families are struggling that theres low test scores . I thats not a surprise. Thats thats poorly predictable has nothing to do with what kind of teaching is happening inside that building. And so this is a place that is both racially diverse, economically more than ever and. It is still everybody is still in the boat and theyre still talking about this and they havent figured it out. And, you know, this is not a book thats like, heres your five point plan to to to Racial Equity and, you know, just follow this, you know, 30 day juice cleanse and well all be skinny. Its it doesnt it doesnt work that way you know and this may never these issues may never be fully and in chicago or anywhere else but i do think the fact that are still trying and still committed to it is meaningful. And again is not about its not about individual heroes and villains. Its about people of goodwill. And so, you know is that pollyannish . I guess maybe some people might think it is that might look at these same facts and decide that, you know, it hasnt worked. But im im more hopeful. What can before i ask question were im going to have like two more questions. But its now time for yalls questions. Theres a microphone right here . So if you have a question for lower, please line up the microphone here and make sure you tell us your name and then youre from Shaker Heights. We want to know that as well and then ask your question so if you have questions. The microphones right here. What can other areas of the country learn from what Shaker Heights has gone through, what Shaker Heights has tried to do and what Shaker Heights has failed . It . Right. Well, i think one thing they can learn, and this is a little more academic, but, you know, theres a lot of conversation this country about what what it looks like when schools pursue equity. And a lot of this is very people who are very critical. It, you know, view this as overly woke who view this as essentially offensive. I think there would be people who would say this is straight up offensive and theres thats that conversation often happens in a very caricatured way. And i think one thing you can learn as well, okay, this is what it is this is what it looks like when you try. Now, some people will look at that and say, i dont want that. And thats thats what makes the world go round. But theyll least know what it what what were talking about here. You know, i think that thats thats number number two is, you know, there are all sorts of kimmy and this is not the only one. Theyre working on these issues. Theyre all over country places that diverse communities. And there are all sorts of little nuggets in here about Different Things that people do. And the big nugget and we dont really know yet whether this is successful or not is and theres this is a chapter the end is in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, they embarked upon a deep whats called deep tracking, which is combining kids of different abilities in the same classes, basically from fifth through more or less ninth grade. So there are still these advanced placement and International Baccalaureate classes offered. But for most of classes underneath that, kids are being combined. And then the hope is to set more kids for success, teach everybody this at a high level. And this idea that basically everything that they had, you know, up to then, you know, what had worked. In fact, i had a very moment. I was one nice thing about the age we live in is i could watch like all the School Board Meetings online, know from the comfort of my house like you know half a mile from here and at one point there was a conversation about the tracking and the curriculum starts. Officer his remarks says, i was sitting there being interviewed by Laura Meckler from the Washington Post. Im like myself in my office. And he says and, she just looks at me and says, but its not. I was. And she was right. And i was like, well, didnt tell you to do it in the middle of a pandemic but anyway, i just said that to myself. He didnt hear me over the over, the, over the over computer. But anyway i think you learn something about that. About what . That looks like, both good and bad, about it looks like when you try that. And that is a strategy that other places are going at as well. And thats a perfect segue way to final question. One of the hardest things for any writer or author to do is to write about your own town. Now that this is out. Can you go back home at. Yes, i was back home last week, the entire week, and we had multiple events that were overflowing with people. Im not sure it was this overflowing with people. Its by the way, im just thank you all so much for coming out. I really appreciate it. But there was a lot of warmth and like i, this is a place thats used to being engaged in these questions. I mean, theres definitely you know, there are some people dont like everything that i had to say here, no question about it. But but i was there was no there was no bodily injury. So no no one no one throw anything at me. No eggs, no shoes, anything like that . Not yet. Not yet. Okay. So im going to turn over the conversation. The audience here, i think you. So once again, if you a question for laura, please line up at the at microphone here. Of course, as you can see, i have like two more pages of questions i can go through. But i think its more interesting if yall some of you who are from Shaker Heights can come up and ask a question. So the one thing i will ask is you tell us who you are and then ask your question. Okay, so well start. Well start right now. Please, sir, your question. My name is david and can you talk about relation sons of and catholics with communities of. I dont know a lot about the relationship between the catholic community, which is not huge in Shaker Heights and communities of color the relationship. But there is a substantial Jewish Population in shaker and and there has been some very positive things that have happened, like what i was talking about in the ludlow, early ludlow experience experience. But i dont know that its wasnt exclusively jewish people any means. So im not sure if you have something specific. Was there discrimination or religious one . Yes. The original covenants were meant. Its often actually said that they were meant to keep out blacks, and catholics all in one. They were all the undesirable. However i think it should be said. At least i dont. Not certain about catholics, but there were jewish families who did get in early. I mean, they did there. I ran into several families whose who are people whose families dated back to shaker, you know, into the teens and so i think thats you know, says a about how these things were enforced that even though yes it was hard for get in it was not impossible. But thats different when it was much different for for black buyers. I dont think that they were parallel at all. Thank you. I actually have to say, i learned a lot about real estate reading, reading about early, early origins of Shaker Heights and that that story was just repeated all over the south in a lot of places in the north. Well. Our next question. Hi my name is kate. Im born and raised in shaker graduated from the Shaker School system. So you im excited to read the book. Im curious from your National Reporting if, youve seen any School Districts who have succeeded, who have stories similar at different demographics, who are doing the right things and have succeeded, where shaker hasnt. I mean, i dont know of any places like the code, you know. I mean, i know there are other places who are engaged in this work. But, you know, everybody is struggling with similar issues. Think things. Hi, my name is nina. We have family in shaker. My question is the Washington Post. That original was a huge article and im wondering why why did the Washington Post in particular give so much so so space to a story about shaker. Well, let me just say im glad you werent there when that conversation. Was there. But you clearly. Im not sure. The wall street journal would have given me 6000 words. You know, ill give selfserving answer, which is id like to say it earned that space, you know, by it being a compelling story and but it was also part a series. I actually built a series that year, questions of integration. So this was one of five stories that was part of that. So it was sort of a run of coverage that we were doing i mean, the miracles. They also then ran ran excerpt of the book, not at 6000 words, but like 3000 something. Just like two weeks ago, i was like, well, i may be testing the Washington Posts degree of interest in Shaker Heights, but yeah, cant say why. But im happy that they did. Well, ill just adding quickly here as a journalism professor. Now you find that the Better Stories are written by reporters who care about that issue. And we can tell that she cares about Shaker Heights so. When she pitched it her editors probably saw her enthusiasm for the story and just bit their tongues and said go for it. Yeah it was probably longer than that and we negotiated down right hi im lauren im not from Shaker Heights but i am a journalism at the George Washington university. Hes my professor. Excellent. And my question especially with the education part of how did you balance the and opinions of students, parents and teachers, especially if theres bias one another . Well, i think that thats part of our job in general as journalists is to take multiple opinions and come from different points of view of the where we see it and kind of put them all together and in a way and the biggest place i actually that balancing act happening was the way the book is organized out of zoo or getting out. But the way the book is organized is each chapter is anchored by a different person and who sort of is important at that time in. The chronology, who sort of moves the story forward and i was very conscious of having a diversity of people. Those are as those anchors, both a racial diversity, but also men and women and people from different points view students, parents, administrators, teachers. So so hopefully my my hope was that the time you finished reading the book, you kind of have a sense of the perspective of multiple times, maybe not every page giving you every point of view that you get a wellrounded of where people are coming from. So someone just earned their bonus points. All right. Next. To me is fred im not from Shaker Heights but i am from lorraine and im not im not from Toni Morrisons depiction because. What you describe early in your book is Toni Morrisons era. I came ten years later, so when i saw your title reminded me of what i thought about lorraine at the time, because we had the four plant, we had gm, we had steel mills, it was an embarrassment to file for unemployment when i was coming up and so i never been a Shaker Heights im going home this weekend for the holidays. I plan on going to Shaker Heights. Okay. Just to get a feel when i get to the book, i didnt experience a lot of races at all when i was coming. I was fortunate, pampered. No, but just fortunate. And im the gentleman that assistant tonight. Im kind of juxtaposing his comments about south and happened with your experience at that school and im a Firm Believer in ohio being a very hospitable okay we just way we are okay and. Im wondering that because it was in the in the north the surrounding areas of shaker played an Important Role to the integration versus. If it was in the south you went was you didnt have a support system he alluded to and so while you were speaking i was thinking about when i was coming up, i would always hear these riots in cleveland because carl stokes was the first mayor at time and it was very combustible things on in the city. So im just wondering or could you address those dynamics that were going on at the time, which Shaker Heights, you alluded to the Civil Rights Movement. But thats too vast for me. I wanted to know about carl stokes what was going on in city at the time, but the racial issues and how it affected the city, right . Well, thats a huge question we probably cant fully answer here. But ill just give a little a couple of thoughts. I mean, one at the same time as shaker was working on this voluntary integration, the schools voluntary bussing plan, the city of cleveland right next door, was fighting court order that to desegregate schools, suburbs that adjoined Shaker Heights, warrensville and east cleveland, rapid white flight. So there was nothing that about northeast ohio or, the east side of cleveland or anything like that. Guarantee is that its going to come out this way. It is that which is why i think this is its such an interesting story. Tell in part. Okay, im looking at the line and hoping were going to be able to get everyones questions. But understand that we have a hard stop at 8 p. M. So if you can keep its a hard stop at 8 p. M. So if you cant keep your questions succinct and well get as many as possible. Okay. Name is george. As you both know, cleveland is, a very divided city, east, west. So somebody to be here to represent the west. But growing up on the west side, i was very aware of the racism there and and we were aware that shaker was, you know, more of a leader on that. And then later at the plain dealer, i covered cleveland schools and and the problems there. I was just back in cleveland last week, and i was struck by how far the west has come on race. Do you think that since you just back there that the Shaker Heights has that kind of leadership or . Is the gap narrowed in terms of race in particular . I do think it still does, to be honest. I that especially as sprawl has, you know, a lot of people further out, you know, those communities are, you know, pretty you know, i definitely dont put myself up as an expert on the west side cleveland because, you know, i im allowed to go to the west side and i. By the george his father was also a prominent journalist in cleveland work i relied on in this book so. Hi, my name is dwayne. I grew up in the ludlow neighborhood and my family moved there in the early sixties. I. First grade all the way through, graduated in the 12th grade and i during my junior year, i was one of those only black students in the classes who felt that sense of you know, not having a group of people that i could connect with in there yet. It did not it did not disturb me in terms of being able to do what i needed to do, but my my junior year, i approached the school board about why arent more black students encouraged to be aware of these classes and encouraged to be engaged them. And of course, there were blacks who i knew who were probably as bright, if not brighter than i were was. But why are you taking those, you know . Ap classes . You know, you could be acing everything in another. And at the same time, there was no one really there that was encouraging. Students are letting parents know about those things my ended up spending my last year as a page capitol hill. I had the opportunity to do that i had gotten most of my you know all my necessary things out of the way. Ap and i spent last year here on capitol hill, but i always wondered what happened in your book was helpful. There were some painful parts to it because i felt like my voice was being spoken in, but i always wondered. What about what was the what was the key to those who black students who were success in navigating it. The very few though they may be and navigating the the the racial divide there and and i didnt hear much about that in the book and what was it about now i know what it was and ludlow and there are some other ludlow people here. We had a we had family units that were a huge part and models within our community that regardless of what the, you know, barriers where we were going to make it and im a physician in this area and im lists and i am a facial plastic reconstructive surgeon and ear and throat doctor. First African American head, the Largest Organization of v. A. Doctors. The country during covid. And i have black students from Montgomery County come in my office who are in ap classes and have the same problems going on why is that okay well thank you for sharing that i i would i think that one of the reasons why the people who have succeeded and the black kids who are in those advanced classes is i mean, not a lot of them very accomplished parents who have very High Expectations for education, you know, and theyre going to thats where their kids are going to be. And, you know, i know if that was the case with your parents, but certainly the case with a lot of the the that those first wave ludlow families the black families who moved in were incredibly accomplished. You know, doctors and dentists and lawyers. And they were just there was no it was the first one of the first suburbs that was available to them. And its everybody who with means and aspirations it seems like there. So it was an incredibly accomplished group of people. Its you know, so i think that that explains why. And thats still true today, too. Of course theres you know lots of still in chicago of very accomplished black families and a lot of their kids are in those advanced classes. So it is its not about you know, being there. Its just about numbers are not where they should be. And and just because you come from a family with fewer, does that mean that none of those kids can make it in those classes . You know, obviously they can, but it just it takes more work. So maybe another story to be told always story to be told. At least 6000 more words. I just come. I just have to say really quickly, one of the biggest compliment you can give any author is to tell them, i heard my voice in that story. Thank you for a second. I have to say sweet, red raiders had. All right. Hey, laura. Chaker grabbed this. Didnt give it away. Matt lehman and was actually one of those kids who was reverse bust to moreland. And then the parent of a 20 and a 21 grad from the high school as well. And one of the things, did you you talk a little bit about the economic disparity and as someone who grew up there, you know, went through the schools in the seventies and then had kids who went through and the twins obviously, it seemed a lot more disparate than when i was there. The best indicator we had when my kids were in school was a number of folks were on free or reduced lunch and that did ten proportionately towards the black students in the school. Did you have any from earlier on, did you see a trend that changed because i felt it, but i wasnt sure if you saw that from a data standpoint. Yes the data absolutely bears that out. The first year that the census gives data for both race and income to cross together was 1989. And that which im speaking, i was in 1989. And what that showed was at that time, the median black income was about 65 of the median white income in shaker. So there was a disparity, but by 2020, white income had inched up, black income had fallen, black income had fallen. It was 35 of white income. And part of that was because wealthy. Black families had other options, took them, and part of it was because were parts of shaker, partly due to the housing crisis that where the that opened up to lower income People Housing vouchers started to be accepted there were some of these property were foreclosed upon outoftown landlords them they were willing to accept housing vouchers where people hadnt before. So lower income people were arriving. So yes so the those economic did not just imagine, again, they have grown larger and that and that in a way, is actually its a big challenge but at the same time its also like big opportunity like heres heres a district thats educating both kids who qualify for poverty programs and very, very wealthy kids thats you know, thats a bad thing. Thank you for telling the story. Thank you. Yeah. 5 minutes left. So im going to ask those who who are left. Were going to get into our flash session. So ask quick questions and well see if we can get quick answers. Okay. Hi, my name is tricia. Im also a proud Shaker Schools grad, so thank you for writing book. Looking around this, we do see that the majority turn out here is white and growing up in shaker, i notice that a lot of the Community Conversation is about race, whether that was through the school board or even score was dominated white people. So im wondering whether you came across that, your research and what you make of it. Its a its a huge problem and. I think its both. And that theres theres blame to go around for everybody. You know, part of its the system itself in the sense of like do people are spaces places where people feel comfortable, you know, are the toes room is that people feel welcome when they walk in. If youre a black mom and you walk in dad and all you see as a bunch of white moms who all know each other and are clicking clacking away together, like maybe you dont feel like this is a place for you. But theres also and then and again, we we talked about how as a rule, i dont like to make these generalizations because it does not apply to everybody. But there are a lot of lower income, black living there who have a lot on their plate i mean, i told the story of one woman who, you know, when she got shaker originally she had three jobs and. You know, shes like she said, i was so out of the loop. I didnt know the loop was i shouldnt know there was a loop. You i was just too busy, just kind of getting through day to day. So theyre not and so some of the responsibility on me to somehow find the to engage and be part of those conversations. So it goes both ways. I think. But that is definitely something that is frustrated School Leaders because theyre too out there trying to engage with the current administration, trying to engage with all communities. And its harder. Its harder with the lower Income Community in shaker. Definitely. Thank you. Thanks. Yes. I dont have a question i just wanted to make statement, actually. I came here just to have my book signed because i beverly mason, sister and for those of you who have read the book or even peruse the book, beverly and ted are a subject, the third chapter. And they were one of the first black families to move in the first the first, first, first, right. Black family to move into shaker beverly coming from a very town in southern west virginia. Ted coming a very southern, segregated town in southern ohio. They met at western reserve. So very highly people. Ted was a dentist. Beverly had her masters degree in social allergy, social work and and the next our neighbor was a baptist who immediately put his house on the market and moved beverly and ted worked very with first with the ludlow associate and then beverly with the bussing program. She ran the bussing program and the fencing program. And so my family was very proud of what the two of the we did. Absolutely. Thank you for writing the book and for including your. Your you you truly have a remarkable family there. I wish i had would have had a chance to know your sister and to and this is going to have to be our last. Okay. Hi, laura. Im shelly stokes, and im very happy to meet you. Congratulations on the book. And with me is, kathy day, both of us grew in michigan. Im also a Washington Post alumna as well as a shaker alumna. And we just i just wanted to say that, the two of us grew up in shaker our fathers were both civil rights attorneys who fought on multiple that went to the Supreme Court to help desegregate schools across not just in cleveland but across the country. But my grandmother was also a Domestic Worker there for many years, so i wanted to just share those. And were really curious as to how many people are here. Kathy, you put the call. All right. We wanted to know, could people from shaker, were curious we keep meeting. Raise your hands raise your hands. Wow. Oh, shelly and i were thinking and we do thank you for writing the book. And i know i spoke to you before it. So we were thinking of trying have a shaker club thats. See what you say theyll be collecting names also we should say that shelly is father was in my class can i just say that shel shellys . Father was not just a civil rights or he was louis stokes, who was a very distinguished congressman for many, many years, cleveland and shaker. And he said and niece of carl and jackie dahl. And carl stokes is our uncle, who was the first African American mayor of. A major city. Major american city. This is not just any family here. So i want to just dovetail on what you say, but it has to be like to say, okay, i would i literally my grandmother i was at shaker my grandmother the domestic of a kid that was in class. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah. Well, they have actually a lot of the people are i just want to end with but i want to end with a quick story about your, which is when i was in high school. He came to speak at the school and i asked him about the disproportionate number white kids and, the advanced classes. And i actually dont remember. His answer was i dont know that he had answer anyone more than any of the rest of us did. And then when i was a reporter for the associated press, when i got here, lots of appeals here, too. I, i interviewed him for a story i was doing about health care disparities. And i reminded him of this. And and he gave me of the best compliments ever had. He said, well, you were asking hard questions even then. So thats like the best thing you can say to a reporter is it is a great congratulations to everyone and give you a great round of applause for laura