Us are left behind and the questions of like what makes selfdefense and how do we fix these broken system are questions for all of usand i think all of us can appreciate a good hero or antihero. So i ve read it have told me were really surprised by a lot of what they read there. And especiallyllexploration of cultures of honor, where men feel like have to defend their honor. And thats something that i found in all three places in , in india and and alabama. And so now hopefully a little bit of something in this book for everyone. Yeah i absolutely think there is and its also theres something personal that i think everyone can take away but its also the larger stakes what we want to change about society. And as think about youve done podcasts, documentaries and topic. What do think what is kind of the next frontier youd want to explore in this space. My next frontier is ta care my baby a little bit. I do want to write about the intersection of motherhood and the environment because thats a lot of what im thinking about now and protecting the world for future generations. But yeah, i want i hope to continue to do this kind of reporting, which is spending years with people because i began my career doing like quit hit journalism and i think ive veered very far the other direction, which is like iming to interview people 5 to 10 years and were going see how this goes. And i think that theres a lot of value in that because people become increasingly more complicated the longer you know them. And i just think it gives such a deeper a deeper picture. And your job becomes harder because then you have 10,000 pages of notes that youre sifting through, but you hopefully finish the project. How . Just to get personal for a second. How was it giving birth to the kids . Baby in the world five months ago and now this book i mean doing that at the time thats quite something my partner is here somewhere with my baby and he will probably say that it was really bad for him but remember there was one day where i was recording the podcast and i couldnt breathe because pressing up against my lungs and to speak. And then i was also doing edits and i felt like i couldnt understand what any of the edits actually said because of pregnancy brain. But, but we did it and its really cool to have my son along with me and i think wanted have a girl and i thought i was to cry. When i found out that i had a boy. But i think its really important to good men and couldnt imagine having anything else. So yeah, absolutely im now going these three women. I dont know if you can answer this, but did you have a favorite ill type mine is dont know if youd guess, but it was really. Why . Because. Because she rejected the way she was brought. She rejected some of the demands, put on her. And even if it wasnt, i mean, thats thing about the stories about these women. It all like brutal Sexual Assaults. One woman was because she bought a house and people wouldnt let her live in it. Another was, you know, she was reallyr her country for her people. And she she really wanted tohat she wanted. And so i related, too, to that. Who was did you do you have a favorite or someone you related to the most . I think the most interesting to report was choetech and. I think the joy that i found there was something that was really surprising to me. And i have li t fighters and theyre like Holding Rocket propelled grenades and grinning and i think that was a really surprising thing to me, just to be there and see that level of joy in these circumstances amid war and czech is also very funny and has just this to her that is like unbelievable, just this incredible bravado. And she was always making fun of me and she just so and you know, at the end of the day, she had so many injuries. Her stomach was split open in the been hit by drone strike. Shed been shot at multiple times. She bragged about killing like 50 aces fighters and she was still just, like, raring to go. So but she also, like, experienced ptsd and lost her comrades and lost a woman she loved and maybe was even in love with. And so i think i just admired her more than anything. Yeah. And you know, one thing i would have a really hard time with this if i was reporting this, but, you know, the conversations around objectivity in journalism, how do you not become totally like best friends with these women or do you become best friends and you can still tell their story . How did you handle and juggle that . Narrative nonfiction is one of the most ethically dubious genres is, i think, and ialked about it more, but i dont think were friends per se, but i think theres a level of and care that you develop and. I care so much about these i care about them being okay but i care that way about everyone i report on. But for them, its after so many hem, i care very much that britney is in prison and hope that she gets out and hope that they stop punishing her for is more addiction issues than anything i care. She doesnt have ptsd forever. And i mean, im sure she will struggle with forever, but i hope that she finds some healing and. Yeah, i think we talk about objectivity in a way that suggests we have no feelings or bias or perspective on any of this. And thats the reason i started with my personal story, because s better to be upfront about where your biases lie and your where youre coming from think the reader will trust you more than if you pretend you have absolutely stake in it. Yeah, and its not like it wasnt even bias. Its your story and i actually think it was terrible, more powerful because of it because you were grappling with the central question w happened if women fight back . Did you really did you find the answer to that . Did you do you have a conclusion ofing in these situations . I mean i not going out and suggesti go, you know, take action. But i am for a world in which our institutions respond and protect us and are more trauma informed and Pay Attention and hoping for a world in which women do not have to be violent to fight back. But if they do fight back, i hope that we dont continue to punish them for it. Think one of your other central questions was the fascination people have with female vigilantes. I mean, after i read this i did start googling maybe on the right over here. Like how, where i havent seen the Dragon Tattoo movies and im like, now i want to afterghis book, what is the fascination people have with female vigilantes and what is that about . I mean, i dont love the marvel movies. Maybe some of you guys do, but for some reason, were obsessed. You do. For some reason were obsessed with superheroes. I just really think our lives ittle bit boring and. We want something more. But i also just. Theres something deeply psychological about, like said at the top, like wishing that we could be them. Theres a lot that all of us have been through in our lives wishing that we could have done more, we could have fougt we had more power or agency than we do have. Yeah, totally. I think those moments are there. Was there there. Do you want to share like a particular moment in the book . That was one of your favorites that really resonated with you. I think its battle of kobani that she check was in. I donmember, but it was the height of isis and there was a battle that took place and the whole world started paying attention. And thats when isis was basically taking over huge swaths of syria. And we really felt like, oh my god, what if they take like a huge part of the middle east like, were were really in trouble here and there was coverage of the ypg and these all female fighting back. But i dont think people realized the extent to which these women the reason that isis no longer much power at all and they really are there were male fighters that fought alongside but these women won some of th key victories. And that and t check was there that battle it was the first battle she was that she her first kill she had her period there and couldnt even wash herself was Like Fighting for days in theu where your your clothes are so wet and leaden that you cant even move. Imagine that. And just hearing her, i knew the battle of kobani and i knew how important it was hearing her tell that story is like of the most incredible things ive ever. And it just makes me think about how many stories out there that we just only know this little sliver of and how much more really is going on. So yeah, why do you think it was under because i was at the and that everyone is covering almost every story from that region but not around isis but not ypg. Why do you think that was a little bit overlooked . There was a lot of coverage on the ypg, but in a very specific way, like look at these hot women holdinnikovs fighting really cool. Like one of the women was known as the Angela Angelina jolie of there was another woman known as the angel kobani. Like everyone was posting of, like, look how beautiful that it was totally weird. And there was some coverage of the ypg. But i think like its a really dangerous so we dont have as many foreign correspondents as we used to complicated the conflict hard to get access to where the fighting was going on and we had like this weird exoticized asian these women and their, you know obviously is so much more to them. So i think its its one of those stories thats really important. Go back to and like really understand. And theres fighting today, but theyre fighting the turkish state. And so its a less simple story theyre not fighting isis. So when they were fighting isis, people were talking about it because it was a very good, good versus evil type. But now theyre fighting the turkish state whos an ally. And so were barely covall in the press. And so you its a story thats worth continuing to follow. Yeah absolutel about hungary, who we havent touched on as what changes. Tell us a little aboutat she to her her city of she did her village satisfied hungary is the indian female vigilante leader had bamboo canes and was killing not killing im sorry fighting against Domestic Abusers. She wanted to kill them. She did set a Police Station on fire. She didnt kill anyone there right . No, she didnt kill anyone. She wanted to kill the landlord. Hector her out. But you know, i think i was trying to with all these women to ascertain, like, what is the level of actual influence and change that they have been able to effect and with anger . I think it really did cause men to think twice before abusing women. I talked to some men who just said like, im really afraid of that green gang. Like i do want house at all. I talked to a few men who been beaten by the green gang. One of them said he still had nightmares about them. So they were you know, the men in the region were really not used to. Women, women coming out and taking action and showing up and angry has this swagger to her as well. Shes a large woman with you know, deep set eyes and a really strong voice. And she, like her mother, told on the on the phone all the time, which is like, halt,. I dont know if i can. So shes really intimidating and police would actually take action like she would show up and be like, why havent you arrested this Domestic Abuser . And they would be like, okay lets arrest them and just get her to go away. Like more. They were its not like they were terrified of her. The police there were more just like, i dont want to deal with this. So like, lets just arrest them so she can stop up. So she was actually very effective. And, you know, to this day now shes becoming a politician. But i think shes doing that st like i need to get in the center of power in order to keep effecting change for my women. And its like as a politician she cant keep swinging her bamboo cane. She absolutely cant. Politicians of course, have broken the law and all kinds of ways. And although angry, has had three against her and been arrested multiple times with women laying outside of the Police Station demanding to be released, all nine of her court cases have actually gone anywhere. Her son has served as her lawyer and all of them have either been dropped or one is still ongoing and its been over ten years. So now i either. Yeah, i mean, i think with angry what you just to become a hero or antihero. Just a hero. I think she wanted to become a hero. Maybe an antihero, she told m after the magazine i wrote about her that she seemed bad, but i didnt make her look bad enough. But it doesnt like britney wanted, though she ended being a source of inspiration for so many women. Is that right. Yeah. I mean, britney didnt even want to people that shed been raped and she didnt want her story to get out there. It was actually her mom who put her story out there. And then since her story many times. But i think britney feels now like if i have had to go through someaningful and useful. And i hope that i can inspire other women. Shes now in prison, rooming with another woman who killed her abuser, whose se i also covered. And then i just found out that theyre living in the same bunk at tutwiler prison. Women, which just gives you a sense ofan are like about this. Like there there are out there. Sorry. Oh so, so yeah. But i dont think britney ever wanted to be in the go to questions soon, but i had one for you before we go there. And if you dont know an answer i have one for you because you told me this earlier. But is there a that you did that didnt make it into book that that youthat is dear to you. I tried to interweave a lot of the stories into the book, like through little epigraphs, the beginning. So theres a lot of mythology in there of like collie and medusa and durga and i think i mentioned the mexican vigilante leader who took on drug cartels. So i have a little bit about her story in there. Which one are you thinking of . Im just thinking about the woman who would who would carry around a rifle and the village in india and if men were drinking, she would threaten to shoot them. Yeah. And she was like 85 years old. And i think shes still doing so. I actually work. Right. Yeah, i work there. I mean, they dont want to die, so i think career for me was a little. Yeah, i think you should go find her or be her. One last thing i do want to say is, one of my favorite parts of this book is that it was three women, but it was about thousands of women. And how to different stories of bandit queen, but also the around to check and the other women who are affected by violence like britney. I just want to say that was so powerful and if there is the universal universal to the universal message, if that was really just wonderful aspire ashley you know i think weve said in, theres often women who are portrayed who are who are weak and not anymore. Thats changing. But there was no weakness here and i just thought that was just incredibly powerful. So thank you for this. Amazing, amazing book. And now we will go to questions. And we bring you sure. So you mentioned when you were talking about kind of how this like how women a the need for protecting high so earlier you were talking about women and the need protecting themselves and the hope that also help would do from looking at because all these women exist in different institutions and legal institutions as white balance do you think would be like from your, you know experience looking at. Of these institutions in depth. There could be bothn more freedom, letting accepting the defense of stand your ground for Britney Spears or there could be institutions you know, standing up to prevent this from happening the first place. But realistically, you know to prevent violence from ever happening. So whats what do you see as the balance that needs to be struck between both being more lenient in terms of how women defend, looking at women defending them more stringent in terms of preventing violence or punishing men or just abusers against these women in the first place. Yeah. I mean i think, for example, like a lot of people against incarcerating people unnecessarily, but then when it comes to like Sexual Assault well be like oh you should jail him. And so i think its important to look at like, what are the Actual Solutions that were talking about . If were talking about improving these institutions . So when it comes to Something LikeDomestic Abuse . A lot of the research that ive found is that like cops are not that wellsuited to respond to Domestic Abuse, like social workers at respond to it. So we need to look at like alternate methods and routes and can respond to this. And when it comes to the criminal legal system, the stand your ground law, i think many us could agree, is not a great law. It actually really works for white men almost exclusively. Its does a very poor job in protecting women as particularly women of color. But is reforming the stand your ground law or getting rid of it and just using another selfdefense law going to work . Not if the lawyers and judges that enacting, you know, prosecuting, etc. , that law actually informed as well. So i think we need to look at it like and its really complicated. Right. But theres like the thing that i always find when im these stories, its like theres people working on all of this. If you think that youre the first to report or research something youre not, theres someone whos been toiling away on this for like 30 years. So its often a matter of actually like implementing the good work that people have already done to reform our institutions whether its the cops or the courts or the government. Well. Hi, my name is jared. That my quest to do . j you spoke about narrative of nonfiction being murky and sort of a gray area. What is the conflict that you felt while covering these stories over the years . And as an author and a writer and a public person . How do you deal with tin your own . Yeah, i mean, one thing ive always struggled with, part of narrative nonfiction is reenact myths. So its not just talking about things that you see. So a lot of this book, i there for but a lot of it i also was not like a big part of the green gang happened i was even there so its dubious to write something a fact when you werent there. Right. But all you can do of course is interview as many people as possible and get as as much documents dont lie quite as much as people do. But i think another thing is just the relationship have with those people, which i talked a little bit about and also like for example, with britney, i believe of all the reporting i did that she was defending herself. But after did a new yorker story about her killing her rt,boyfriends who was abusive his mattress on fire. So that was a really hard moment for me as a journalist because i felt i just wrote this whole story about how this woman was defending herself, which i believe based on not because i believe her story necessarily. Like i intered dozens of people, i looked at all the crime scene photos, went. I spent hundreds if not thousands of hours reporting that story before writing it. But say was more retaliatory. It certainly wouldnt put it in the category of selfdefense. So then i had to really sit with that story and ask myself, like, did i mis report this . Or what is going on here . And i, i actually found like, i dont think i misreport it, but its possible for someone to scenario and not in another because this is a person whos dealt with Domestic Abuse the beginning of their life until and again and again and which is a very common cycle. But to just think then for britney like this is the person that i really care about, but then im writing about her taking retaliatory action. Im writing about her having addiction issues in more detail in this book. But thankfully, i built a lot of trust with her. And i think, you know, she hasnt read the book, but she knows pretty much everything thats in it. And i think she felt like its okay you to tell the full story of me because im im not ashamed of it. And ig trust with your subjects is really the key. And liz. Hi. Um, im really interested in how you made contact with, in particular, these thou profiled. Whats the first conversation when sitting down with somebody and you want to them and you know youre in india or syria or wherever more those stories really im really curious about that because the one in alabama, i could see like the access being a little easier but like how did you approach and what did they say . And did people say no before they said yes and you know, what were the conversations like . I guess what im asking. Yeah. In i worked with local journalists there quite a lot and you know, theyre all cited in these stories and they were huge partnerships that we did on goree. I found a story about her written by a local journalist named saurabma. I contacted saurabh. I said, i read your amazing story about on goree. It was only like four paragraphs and i have about 8 million questions. And so he said the phone with me for several hours and then i said can i come and interview on goree do you want to come with me. And so he went on to report this project with me and i first talked to agree on the phone. She said, just come. I dont really want to talk to you over the phone. So just. Com which course its like okay, im going to spend like 10,000 to just come by on money, but okay. Yeah. And then i met her and she was sitting in this chair in her house, which of course was because its the green gang and hot pink and she had all the women behind her and she started d as she did, the women behind her started, like laughing when she laughed and crying when she cried. And i was like okay im glad i spent the time and money to over here. And you. And then it went from there. And in terms of the serious story, it was also through a local journalist that took me a really long to find check. And i actually said to the local journalist that i connected whose name is solon muhammad amin. I said find a ypg fighter for me . Anyone like i dont care because all i care aboute years of their life with me at, least minimum. And so thats kind of like hard to begin with. And we talked to two different women and actually the other woman in b amazing love stories. And im a sucker for love stories. I couldnt help but include her but she check was the one i ultimatelyjust because she was so incredibly badass and and she was willing to talk to me. And she wasnt like desperate to tell her story, but she wasts juive been a witness to so much and i feel like im going to die soon. And if i dont, you my story, these stories are going to die with me. So i was really i felt like that was really important to stay with her. Was really i had a question about how these different women related to the use of violence that if you talk a bit more about that, i feel like theres a lot of feminist activism that focuses on highlighting the links between violence and militarized masculinity and right the consequences of war on what for women. But then these womens are using violence in part in selfdefense, but also to pursue political goals, it sounds like. So im curious how they thought about that and how they thought about the relationship between violence and feminism, or even if they even describeyeah. So like both brittney and gloria, our mothers and have really nurturing sides them too. And, you know, we of course, we have this cliche of women as the nurturers and the carers and the mothers and the ones who are thinking aboutgenerations and all of that. And all of that. True. And i think its important to also look at the other parts of women. And i think thats why i started the book with saying thats basically like that women can anything neither saints nor women which is something that these women talked about to. And i think when it came to britney, she said, i dont want to have been violent. Thats not something i aspire to do. But it was necessary. And i think the most succinct answer to your question is actually a saying exists in and among the kurds is basically like a rose has thorns not to attack but to defend itself. The only reason that it has thorns is because of something is coming at it. Its to defend itself. And so basically the violence is only out of necessity. And so whe in mythology or in these women violence was not an aggressive act, as we often see in masculineviolence. It was a protective act. And that was something that all of the women really emphasized last. There are two things that you touched on that i wanted to ask about how they relate. One is a lot of survivor is of this kind of violence tend to oh sorry a lot of survivors of this kind of violence prefer to be called survivors rather than victims because of the ive or not having that comes with the label victim. But you also touched on Something Interesting that i find is kind of hard to not coradictory, bncile that, which is what you said about how women who protect themselves by fighting n as, oh they were just monsters. And then the sort of aspect that they were hurt kind of gets glossed over, if that makes sense. So was wondering how in the n you talk to if anyone like had an interesting way of reconciling those both active but then when they take action, you know, just further dehumanized for it just in a different way that makes sense. Yeah s really complicated and i think like for them certainly the pain that they experience that led up to th fighting backsomething that was removed from their story and you know there is a lot of that in these stories. I think its its hard to reconcile that. But i think that complication is really like at the hea like moves back forth between the violent acts that they are subjected to and also the acted. I think something that i it comes to mind when youre talking is that like i was really upset with myself a lot of years for being passive. And then i realized like the goal this book is not to say like, i wish had been active in that m killed that man in that moment. The goal is to be more gentle with myself for not having acted while alsoppens when women do. And i think we can hold both of those content for two more. Lives. You referenced that all these societies have strong sense of honor. The men in the societies do. Why do you think that these women had to take when somebody violated their honor, why they couldnt go to men in their lives, their brothers their cousins, their even though there is a strong sense of honor among the men in the communities in which they live so actually in some cases they did. So thats actually a really cool part of this book. And really interesting is that there were men that stood up women and in a lot of cases werent necessarily affected of like actually in the britney story. She calls her brother over after she was raan over to defend her. And that actually makes the situation even more money than it was at the beginning. But he did come over to defend her and actually he took credit for having killed todd, the man who raped her, which was because he said, like, hey, if i take credit, the cops are going to believe me and say like, hey its fine that you defended your sister like, i get it. Hey, buddy, like, i would defend my sister, too, if she was raped. But if britney said so in that case, that was her brother standing up to help and, you know, in anger his case, her husband was actuallya really quiet supporter of her. And i dont think angry could have ever the leader of a gang if she had a different kind of husband, like her husband was just kind ofike a choir it genial guy, kind of rare, actually, that he was so supportive of this. But he was. And and she checks case her dad was really quite amazsupportive her he taught her how to drive even though everyone her village said like why are you letting a girl drive . Like what are you doing . And he just kept quietly encouraging her to drive. So i think that is a testament actually to like these women couldnt have had kind of agency if there werent also men supporting them in their lives. Any last question . Yeah. Yeah, i know. It just sounds so because you mentioned it just just by like i came because i met my tia, my dad. Im a kurd now as you know. So but he kept saying more women these twice. I got to ask you, your favorite guys, female hero, because its known now the guy who made a wonder woman uses an s m free. I mean what . But for some reason, i, i guess he was sort of like a so he wonder because he servant inside army. So i have a question which here. Which one . I actually dont have a favorite marvel hero. And i think its because a lot of them were created by men and so i dont necessarily resonate with them. Like you said. Thank you. Can we get a quick fix . Thank you. Can we get a quick plug for, the first book briefly just to remind everyone of your book, the heart is the first thing to thank you. The heart of the shipping sea is a book aboute i followed three couples for over a decade and interviewed them about their marriages. And i learned a lot from that book that i applied to this one. So anyways, thank you guys so much for coming out. I really those people and thank you solid state for doing book events