Transcripts For CSPAN2 Elizabeth 20240704

Folks in washington dc. Im swati sharma. Im the head in chief and publisher of box and also a long friend of Elizabeth Flock. And Elizabeth Flock is a journalist and the author t foh book is already out. Please buy it if you have it. The puritans. So were here to talk today about this excellent book she wrote. First of all, is this focus so good . It was so cathartic but dark but uplifting and also funny. And if yall havent read it, im really excited for you to go on this journey. So, first of all, congratulations on this huge, hugeomplishment. So im going to start by from the beginning of my version of the your beginning. We were at a restaurant in washington, d. C. Of like five or six years ago, and we queen. And as yall will see in the books, bandit queen was was a female vigilante in the eighties and nineties in india. And she and liz and i were talking about her power, her journey. And you wanted to write a book on her and from there, what happened and how did we get to this book today . Yeah. Q i asked swat, this has been a really long journey as books tend to be. The last book took ten years, so this one took five. So were, you know, asked swatin part because shes was with me at the beginning, which is, as she said, the bandit written the last book about love and marriage in india, where i started my career as a journalist. And when i was reporting in mumbai, learned a lot about the bandit queen, who is a low caste woman and a child abusive child marriage, who escaped that and went on to lead a crew of bandits and avenge crimes against men who are abusers and high caste men in particular. She even once killed an entire town of men. She was really quite hardcore and i was just fascinated with this person and my editor said, i think you should look deeper about why you are fascinated with this person. And then i realized it wasnt just the bandit queen, it was female vigilantes in ourlms andr songs and our mythology that i was really interested in and that i realized a lot of us are really interested in, whether its the girl with the dragon, you know, or the latest marvel movie dixie chicks. Good bye, earl. Whatever the casee interested in these antiheroes. And so my next question is why . Why are we so interested in these people who fight back . And i realized for me, as someone, a woman whos experienced Sexual Violence and a woman out in the world that i and so after that, id be these thought as a journalist, i need to go find them. Who are the real life female the real life women who are fighting back . Im so obsessed with women like the bandit queen. Well, are theyre modern day versions living out in the world and if so, as a journalist, i want to go report on them, interview them, get to know them, tell their stories. And so thats where this journey re started. And then i spent once i figured that out, then i spent the next five years going around the world and meeting them. Why did you settle on these three specific women . Yeah, so i actually i found so many stories and they stories of women who fhtack against violence with violence really exist everywhere in the world. And i could have done a story about a woman in the ukraine. I could have done a story about a woman in mexico who was taking on drug cartels and also fighting against gender based violence. But i focused on these stories inf women who wanted to talk access that i had to them. But also because i the sto were unfolding in real time. So i got to go and meet them and spend time with them as they were happening. I wanted to do a story in the us because i think we have th idea that women who are experiencing horrific violence happens like out there. But of course its happening in the us as well. Alabama. I didnt choose it because like, oh, its the south or Something Like that. It just happened to be where i found a killing her rapist and claimed selfdefense and was charged with murder and i think i saw a tweet about her story wn kills rapists and is now in Mental Institution. And that immediately set off alarm bells in my head like, what is this there . So i reached out to this woman, britney smiths mom. I got on the phone with her and she said, come on downwe went an the Mental Institution where they had put her while she was awaiting trial. And then that began like a five year journey of interviewing her and getting to know her story. And then, you know, later found the indian serious story as well. Yeah, at was fast in eating is although these women were often alienated and did have to take action themselves, they did ha;e commity. I mean, ramonas one of my this is britneys mom. Shes one of my favorite characters and tell me about the community that youve found that these women have even in suctro. Yeah, i think the relationships in this book are a huge part of why women were able to fight back andbc why more horrible things didnt happen to when they did. Even though all of the women were punished for fighting back in different ways, brittanys mom, ramona, is probably her biggest advocate. So when britney was arrested for murder, her mom was told to shut up and not talk about it. It would be better for her and ramona did the opposite of that. And ramona is not a person that you told to shut up. So, i mean, the first time i met r, about when her husband was abusive to her and she saw it off the end of a broom and waited for him to come home so she could beat him with it so that he would never abuse so thats the woman that i was dealing with. So ramona said, you know, im not going to be quiet. And she contactedas a national , heard about her. And she really rallied people locally. I realized britney had a whole community of women around her of advocates, and just women in the community who said, like, ive experienced somethinlar and i could see myself being in a situation like this. And so i want to fight for you. And so they had held protests outside ofsed of murder, killing her rapist and and in all of the cases, there were a lot of■x women surrounding this one woman. And actually brittneys story is really the story of one woman on trial. But the other two stories, the india story is an entire gang taking on abusive men. And in syria, its a its its the story of an entire militia. So bigger and bigger groups of women fighting in different ways. Yeah, love that. And i think that book may sound heavy, but i didnt find it that heavy. Maybe the britney story was a little heavy. vbuth reading, you, you know, youre finding chuck the this is a this is a person who was part of ypg militia. I mean, she said she used the word joy in kind of taking action against against isis and killing isis fighters. Theres another character, angourie person in india who really does. People are unfair taking her a she fights back and i found it uplifting and at times cathartic. Did you how did you how did di . I know you talked about your own trauma. How did you kind of deal with your own trauma in writing this book . Yeah. So i had a lot of mental breakdown while writing this book. My body kind of revolted against me at some points, but i think it was also really helpful and i think what was most helpful is that this is a book about women with agency. Its a book that is about a book of looking at it from the perspective of victimhood. And a lot of times people today, they dont use the word victim, they use the word survivor. And i think it was really important to me to write a book about women with agency and looking what happened at what happens when women do fight ba. I really didnt want to write about this, but i wrote about being raped when i was in rome in my twenties and i wish that e and i spent my whole life wondering why i froze. And actually freezing is something that people do in lots of scenarios whetheyre afraid. And that was something i only understood later, but i think that gave me sort of like an interest and obsession with agency and action. And so i really wanted to follow those women and not tell Domestic Violence from the other perspective, all of those perspectives are important. Order to feel like i could tell these stories, i wanted to take that lens. Is that why the bandit queen story got to you personally . I remember us talking about it and that it really i was interested in bandit queen ca politician, she was on a cover of a magazine about bollywood. So thats why i knew her. And you were into her very different reasons. Connection toe of your own experience . Yes. Yeah. And i think it also raises questions for me about whe y qun we always have with vigilantes is like, wow, this is so cool. This is so cool and then all of a sudden youre like, ooh, i dont know if thats okay. ■3t ly still on their side. And thats kind of the question that i wanted readers to wrestle with as they were reading. This book, the indian female vigilante leader who i profile, she actually is emulating the bandit queen. And shes invested in her own mythologizing. Shes wanting to appear larger than life. She is doing things that youre like, im not sure. Like at some point she kidnaps a mother who has witnessed a gang raorto give up the names of the rapists and i was she was bragging about that to me and i was sort of like i this is t toa step back. And she also, as you read in the book, has entered politics. And she didnt want to tell me that she was entering politics because as we know, places arous associated with corruption. And so i was actually there in northern india reporting on her and she disappeared it and said, im going to be gone for a day. And then i drove into town. There was a giant billboard with her face appearing at a political event. Soaid, here and i would like to come to the event, but i think that that question of where we draw the line of what is acceptable in her reason that i was interested in the bandit queen because she too crosses the line. She killed an entire town of men she would parade aroundon all f of a rifle. And so is acceptable. And what isnt. People are complic exactly what how do you do you feel like these women regretted what the . Do you feel like in the end they did feel empowered . And i mean, their story isnt over yet, but in this moment, how do you feel . Yeah, i think as you the book youll see like theyre as theyre being punished for it. Obviously theyre not feeling great about that. Britney■ is currently still in prison. I havent been able to get her a copy of the book because shes in prison and cant get books at the moment. But she has absolutely no regrets in terms the fact that she feels like women have been empowered by her story asamona mother put it. Like when you get a bunch of little nobodies together, we become somebody. And so that is really britneys perspective on it. Think the latest message that hungary sent me was of her getting deeper, deeper into politics and shes finding her own way intod she check who fous all female militia is certainly battle scarred and weary, but i think she would never say that regretted going to war either. For what she thought were really important reasons. So they dont regret it, but theyre certainly bearing the personal costs. Yeah. Going back to britney, one thing that i found really■ what you said about how times are changing and that there are one reason these women did have to take action themselves is because System Society wasnt backing these women. But you did say that. That is maybe at least in the united states, there is some change youre seeing. Can you talk a little bit about that change . Yeah. So the britney story is about women back against their abusers and for the lon incarcerate citr defending themselves against their abusers. And it hasnt been called selfdefense. Its called murder or manslaughter. And theres a lot of situations that are somewhere in the gray area. So its not like its clear selfdefense every time. Certainly it often falls outside of the realmswhwod in legal system. But i think courts are finally starting to Pay Attention to the fact that there is a context of abuse thats often present. So there are states now were passing laws that are looking back at women in prison and looking at try and context of why theyre in prison and certainly when i went through a lot of these cases, it was like they were portrayed in the media as like heartless murder look their case files and theres like a ton of record of them being abused for decades. And none of that made it to the presck lot more of that. Theres Amazing Organization called survived and punished. That focus on this issue is doing a lot ofy around it. And also youre seeing like judges and lawyers and, even some police who are becoming more trauma informed, ich is s, because otherwise youll have who comes in to the station totally from head to toe and youll have a cop just be like, oh yeah, she murderedaving theme aware of the larger. Context is really, really important. Yeah. Why this change happen . Why, why have are the systems very slowly and maybe subtly changing . And i thought it wasau too. But also its possible because of the change in perceptions around trauma. Tell me about what youee chane and the difference between syria and whats happening in america. I think i happening from the ground up. A lot of times as a journalist, i know ive made the mistake of going top down and saying like, oh, we need to change ouraw ls. We need to talk to senators and you know, and all of that is very important. I think honestly, the most social change thats happened in all of these areas is becausss because of incarcerated women. Its because of women, you know, kurds who are fighting back on the ground. Because women who took to the streets five years before metoo in india to speak out against Sexual Violence. They took to the streets by thousands. I think its i think its almost always bottom up that actually creates social change and its a lot of a lot of people speaking up and a lot more awareness than our mothers generations and our mothers generations and people speaking out more openly about all of these things and not ashamed and feeling so. You know, from our conversations tonight and over time, thing ics book yourself, but there was an in mind who is that audience . Who were you writing this book r . So i got one review that i got really upset and the first thing i did is look at my baby who th ate a book. And i think i tweeted about this because i was just like, oh, okay, my baby like a zen master. Hes like, if i like a book, i eat it. If i dont like a book, eat it. But then i talk to a friend of mine who i talked to throughout this process when. She was like, you know, you didnt write this for the it for the women who have defended themselves or not been able to defend themselves. And i, i think i did write it for thoseote it for men to likei think, a big of this book is about how when werestruggling,t behind, and the questions of like what makes selfdefense and how do we fix the system are quf us. And i think all of us can appreciate a good hero or anero. Hope that men read it, too. I know that a couple of the men who have read it have told me were really surprised by a lot of what especially the exploration of cultures of honor, where men feel like have to defend their honor. And thats somethinfound in alln india in syria, in india and and alabama. And so now book for everyone. Yeah, i absolutely think there is and its also theres something personal that i think everyone can take away but its also the larger stakes what we want to change about society. And as think about youve d ts and topic. What do think what is kind of the next frontier youd want to explore in this my next frontier is taking care my baby a little bit. I do want to write about the intersection of thats a lot of what im thinking about now and protecting the world for future generations. Nt i hope to continue to do this kind of reporting, which is spending years with people because i began my career doing like quit hit far the other direction, which is like im going to interview people 5 to 10 years and were going see how this lot of value in that because people become increasingly more complicated the longer you know them. And i justnk it■■h gives such a deeper a deeper picture. And your job becomes harder because then you have 10,000 pages of notes that youre sifting through, but hopefully finish the project. How . Just to get personal for a second. How was it giving birth to the kids . Ago and now this book i mean doing that at the time thats quite something is here somewhere with my baby and he will probably say that it was really bad for him, but remember threcording the podcast and i couldnt breathe because of the baby pressing up against my lungs and to speak. And then i was also doing edits i felt like i couldnt understand what any of the edits actually said because of pregnancy brain. But, but we did it and its really cool to have my son along with me and i think when i had a baby, i wanted have a girl and i thought i was to cry. When i found out that i had a important to good men and couldnt imagine having anything else. So yeah,bsoluty im now going back to these three women. I dont know if you can answer this, but did you havaprobably s i dont know if youd guess, but it was really. Why . Because. Because she reeday she was brought. She rejected some of the demands, put on her. And even if it wasnt, i mean, thats thing about the ieit alll assaults. One woman was because she bought a house and people wouldnt t her live in it. Another was, you know, she was really fighting for her country for her people. And shehe really she she was stubborn. She wanted to do what she wanted. And so i related, too, to that. Who was did you do you have a to the most . I think the most interesting to report was choetech and. I think the joy that i found there was something that was really surprising to me. And i have like all these pictures of ypg fighters and theyre like Holding Rocket propelled grenades and grinning thing to me, just toreally be there and see that level of joy in these circumstances amid war and czech is also veryand hs like unbelievable, just this incredible bravado. And she was always making fun ou want to hang out with. So and you know, at the end of the day, she had so many injuries. Her stomach was split open in the shape of a tee. Shed been hit by drone strike. Shed been shot at multiple times. She bragged about killingik 50 aces fighters and she was still just, like, raring to go. So but she also, like, experienced ptsd and lost her comrades and lost a woman she loved and maybe was even in love with. And so i think i just admired yeah. Ore than and you know, one thing i would have a really hard time with this if i was reporting this, but, you know, the conversations arou journalism, how do you not become totally like best friends with these women or do you become best friends and you can nd jugglel their sry . That . I think its really hard narrative nonfiction is one of the most ethically dubious nres is, i think, and i wish we talked about it more, but i dont think were friends per se, but i think theres a level of c and. I care so much about these women. I care about them being okay, but i care that way about everyone i report on. But for them, its after so many years spent with them, i care very much that britney is in prison and hope that she gets out and hope that they stop punishing her for is more addiction issu t anything i care. She doesnt have ptsd forever. And i mean, im sure she will struggle with forever, but i pehaand. Yeah, i think we talk about objectivity in a way that suggests we have no feelings or bias or perspective on any of. And thats the reason i started with my personal story, because i actually think its better to be upfront about where your biases lie and your where youre coming from and then i actually think the reader will trust you more than if you pretend you have absolutely stake in it. Yeah, and t even bias. Its your story and i actually think it was terrible, more powerful because of it because you werefu with the central question what happened if women fight back . Did you really did you find the answer to th did you do you have a conclusion of what women should be doing in these situations . I mean, i not going out and suggesting that everyone go buy a kalashnikov and go, you know, take action. But i institutions respond and protect us and are more trauma informed and Pay Attention and hoping for a world in which women do not have to be violent to fight back. But if they do fight back, i punish them for it. Yeah, i think one of your other central questions was the fascination people have with female vigilantes. I mean, after i read this i did start googling maybe on the right over here. Like how, where i havent seen movies and im like, now i want to after reading this book, what is the fascination people have with female vigilantes and what is that about . I mean, i dont love the marvel movies. Maybe some of you guys do, but for some reason, were obsessed. You do. For some reason were superhero. I just really think our lives are like a little bit boring and. We want something more. But i also just. Theres something deeply like said at the top, like wishing that we could be them. Theres a lot that all of us have been through in our wishing that we could have done more, we could have fought back or that we had more power or agency than we do have. Yeah, totally. Moments are there. Was there was there. Do you want to share like a particular moment in the book . That was one of your favorites you. I thinkthat she check was in. I dont know if you guys remember, but it was the height of isis and there was a battle that took place and the whole world started payg when isis ws basically taking over huge swaths of syria. And we really felt like, oh my god, what if they take like a huge pt oflike, were were rean trouble here and there was coverage of the ypg and these all female fighting back. But i dont think people realized the extent to which these women the reason that isis no longer much power at all and they really are there were male fighters that fought alongside, but these women won some of the most decisive key victories. And that and t check was there that battle it was the first battle she was that she it was her first kill she had her period there and couldnt even washse was pouring rain you know where your your clothes are so wet and leaden that you cant even move. Imagine that. And just hearing her, i knew the battle of kobani and i knew how important it was hearing her tell that story is like of the most incredible things ive ever. Stories out there that we just only know this little sliver of and how much more really is going on. So yeah, why do you think it was under because i was at the Washington Post at this time and that everyone is covering almost every story from that region but t not ypg. Why do you think that was a little bit overlooked . There was a lot of coverage on the ypg, but in a very specific like look at these hot Women Holding kalashnikovs, fighting really cool. Like one of the women was known as the aela Angelina Jolie of kurdistan. There was another woman known as the angel kobani. Like everyone was posting of, like, look how beautiful that it e was some coverage of the ypg. But i think like its a really dangerous so we dont have as many foreign correspondents as we used to and i just think it was really complicated the conflict hard to get access to where the fighting was going on and we had lik this weird exoticized asian fascination, these women and their, you know, obviously is so much more to them. So i thins one of those stories thats really important. Go back to and like really understand. And theres fighting today, but theyre fighting the turkish state. And so its a less simplen they, people were talking about it because it was a very good, good versus evil type. But now theyre fighting the turkish state who covering at all in the press. And so you its a story thats worth continuing to■] follow. Yeah, absolutely. You know, lets talk a little bit about hungary, who we havent touched on astell us a y and the changes that she to her her city of she did here village satisfied hungary is the indian female vigilante leader had bamboo canes and was killing not killing im sorry fighting againstusers. She wanted to kill them. She did set a Police Station on fire. She didnt kill anyone there right . No, she didnt kill anyone. She wanted to kill the landlord. Hector her know, i think i was trying to with all these women to ascertain, like, what is the level of actual influence and change that they have been able to it really did cause men to think twice before abusing women. I talked to some men who just said like, im really afraid of that green gang. Like i do want to see them showing up at my house at all. I talked to a few men who been beaten by the green gang. Them. So they were you know, the men in the region were really not used to. Women, women coming out and angry has this swagger to her as well. Shes a large woman with you know, deep set eyes and a really strong voice. She, like her mother, told on the on the phone all the time, which is like, halt,. So shes really intimidating and police would actually take action like she would show up and be like, why havent you arrestedokay, lets arrest them and just get her to go away. Like more. They were its not like they were terrified of her. The police there were more just like, i dont want to dealh this. So like, lets just arrest them so she can stop up. So she was actually very effective. And, you know, ton. But i think shes doing that strategically because she feels like i need to get in the center of power in order to keep effecting change for my women. And its like as politician, she cant keep swinging her bamboo cane. She absolutely cant. Politicians of course, have broken the law and all kinds of ways. And althou had three or four court cases against her and been arrested multiple times with women laying outside of the police statiodeml nine of her court cases have actually gone anywhere. Her son has served as her lawyer and all of them have either been dismissed orill ongoing and itr ten years. So now im sure anythings going to happen there either. Yeah, i think with angry what you just said, she did want to become a hero or antihero. Just■ ercome a hero. Maybe an antihero, she told me after the magazine i wrote about her that she seemed bad, but i didnt make her look bad doesny wanted to a hero, though she ended being a source of inspiration for so many women. Is that right. Yeah. I mean, britney didnt even want to people that shed been raped and she didnt want her story to as act her mom who put her story out there. And then since then, britney has spoken about her story many times. But i think britney feels now like if i have had to go through so much i want it to be meaningful and useful. And i hope that i can inspire other women. Shes now in prison, rooming with another woman who killed her abuser, whose case i also covered. And then i just found out that theyre living in the same bunk at tutwiler women, which just gives you a sense of how many stories there are like about this. Like there there are out there. Sorry. Oh, britney ever wanted to be in the limelight. Okay, were going to go to questions soon, but i had one for you before we go there. And if you dont know an answer i have one for you because you told me this earlier. But is there■a at make it intot that you love and that is dear to you. I tried to interweave a lot of the sts book, like through little epigraphs, the beginning. So theres a lot of mythology in there of like collie and medusa and durga the mexican vigilante leader who took on drug cartels. So i have a little bit about her story in there. Im just thinking about the woman who would who would carry around a rifle and the village in india and if men were drinking, she would threaten to shoot them. Yeah. And she was like 85 years old. And i think shes still doing so. I actually work. Right. Yeah, i work there. So i think career for me was a little. Yeah, i think you should go find her or be hone last thing i do y is, one of my favorite parts of this book is that it was three women, but it was about■ and how you were able to bring in so many different stories of bandit queen, but also the around check and the other women who are affected by violence like britney. I just want to say that was soue universal message, if that was really just wonderful aspire ashley you know i think weve seen i watch a lot of bollywood as i said in, theres often women who are portrayed who are who are we anymore. Thats changing. But there was no weakness here and i just thought that was just incredibly powerful. Amazing book. And now we will go to questions. Ring you in. Someones can be sure. So you mentioned when you were lkxxinabout kind of how this like how women and the need for protecting so earlier you were talking about women and the need protecting emselvesj and that also help would do from looking at because all these women exist in institutions and legal institutions as white balance do you think would be like from your, you know experience looking at. Of these institutions in depth. There could be both like giving women more freedom, letting accepting the defensest spears or there could be institutions, you know, standing up to prevent this from happening the first place. But realistically, you know, its almost impossible to prevent violence from ever happening. So whats what do you see as the balance that needs to be struck between both being more lenient in terms of how women themselves and more stringent in terms of preventing violence or punishing men or just abusers against these women in the first place. Yeah. I mean,wg i think, for example, like a lot of people against incarcerating people unnecessarily, but then when it ll be like, oh you should jail him. And so i think its important to look at like, what are the Actual Solutions that were talking about . If were talking about improving these institutions . So when it comes to Something Like Domestic Abuse . A lot of the research that ive found is that like cops are not that wellited to respd ■ Domestic Abuse, like social workers actually often do a much better job at respond to it. So we need to look at like alternatet methods and routes ad people who can respond to this. And when it comes to the criminal legal system, the stand your ground law, i think■i manys could agree, is not a great law. It actually really works for white men almost exclusively. Its does a very poor job in protecting women as particularly women of color. But is reforming the stand your ground law or getting rid of it and just using another selfdefense law going to work . Not if the lawyers and judges that enacting, you know, prosecuting, etc. , that law actually informed as well. So i think we need to look at it like every level and its really complicated. Right. But theres like the thing that i always find when working on. If you think that youre the first to report or research something youre not, theres someone whos been toiling away on ts lis often a matter of actually like implementing the good work that people have already done to reform our institutions, whether its the cops ogovernment. Well. Hi, my name is jared. That my quest to do . You spoke about narrative of nonfiction being murky and sort of a gray conflict that you felt while covering these stories over the years . And as an author and aw do you d how do you kind of squared away in your own . Yeah, i mean, one thing ive always struggled w reenact myths. So its not just talking about things that you see. So a lot of this book, i there for but a lot of it i also was of the green gang happened i was even there so its dubious to write something a fact when you werent there. Right. But all yan dof cours0e is interview as many people as possible and get as as much document as possible because documents dont lie quite as much as people do. But i think another thing is just the relationship have with those people, which i talked a little bit about and also like, ex britney, i believe britney and because of all the reporting i did that she was defending herself. Butftr rapist, she went on to set another boyfriends who was abusive his mattress on really hard moment for me as a journalist because i felt i just wrote this whole story about how this woman was defending herself, which i believe based on not becae iy n. Like i interviewed dozens of people, i looked at all the crime scene photos, went. I spent that story before writing it. But then she went on to do this thing that i would say was more retaliatory. It certainly wouldnt put it in the category of sedefense. So then i had to really sit with that story and ask myself, like, did i mis report this . Or what is going on here . And i, i actually, but its possible for someone to defend themselves in one scenario and not in another, because this is a person whos dealt with Domestic Abuse the beginning of t l until and again and again and again, which is a very common cycle. But to just think then for britney like this is the■ person that i really care about, but then im writing about her taking retaliatory action. Im writing about her having addiction issues in more detail in this book. But thankfully, i built a lot of trust with her. And i think, you know, she hasnt read the book, but she knows pretty much everything thats in it. And i think she felt like its okay you to the fl or■h becaut ashamed of it. And i trust you. So i think Building Trust with your subjects is really the key. Thanks. And liz. Hi. Um, im really interested in how you made contact with, in particular, these three women that you profiled. First conversation like . You know, when sitting down with somebody and you want to them and you know, youre in india or syria or wherever more those stories really im really curious about that because the one in alabama, i could see like e ss being a little easier, but like how did you approach and what did they say . And did people say no before they said yes and you know, what were the conversationsf like . . Yeah. So through the stories in india, in i worked with local journalists there quite a lot d you know, theyre all cited in these stories and they were huge partnerships that we did on goree. I found a story aboutocal journt named saurabh sharma. I contacted saurabh. I said, i read your amazing story about on goree. It was only like four paragraphs and i have■ about 8 million questions. And so he said the phone with me for several hours and then i me. D can i come andntvi and so he went on to report this project with me and i first talked to agree on the phone. She said, just come. So just. Com which course its like, okay, im going to spend like 10,000 to just come by on money, but okay. Yeah. And then i met her and she was sitting in this chair in her house, which of course was because its the green gang and hot pinktwomen behind her and sd just telling me her life story. And as she did, the women behind her started, like laughing when she laughed and crying when she cried. Ani s like, okay im glad i spent the time and money to over here. And you. And then it went from there. And in terms of the serious story, it was also through a local journalist that took me a really long to find check. And i actually said to the local jo connected, whose name is solon muhammad amin. I said, can you just find a ypg fighter for me . Anyone like i dont care is the willing to spend like three years of their life with me at, least minimum. And so thats kind of like hard to begin with. And we talked to two different women and actually the other woman in the book because she had amazing love stories. And im a sucker for love stories. I couldnt help but include her, but she check was the one i ultimately chose. Just because she was so incredibly badass and and she was willing toand she wasnt lio tell her story, but she was just like, you know, ive been a witness to so much and i feel like im going to die soon. And if i stories are going to de with me. So i was really i felt like that was really important toy her. Was really i had a question abouw rent women related to the use of violence that if you talk a bit more about that, i feel like theres a lot of feminist activism that focuses on highlighting the link violence and militarized masculinity and right the consequences of war on what for women. But then these womens are using vice selfdefense, but also to pursue political goals, it sounds like. So im curious how they thought about that and how they thought about the relationshitw feminisn if they even describe themselves as feminists. Yeah. So like both btt and have like of course really nurturing sides them too. And, you know, we of course, we have this cliche of women carere mothers and the ones who are thinking about future generations and all of that. And all of that. Tr. And i think its important to also look at the other parts of women. And i think thats why i started the book with saying thats basically like that women anything neither saints nor only women which is something that these women talked about to. And i think when it came to britney, she said, i dont want to have been violent. Thats not something i aspire to do. But it was necessary. And ihink the most succinct answer to your question is actually a saying exists in and among the kurds is basically like a rose has thorns not to attack but to defend itself. The only reason that it has thorns is because of something is coming at it. Its to defend itself basicallys only out of necessity. And so whether it was in mythology or in these women, violence was not an aggressive act, as we often see in masculine stories, violence. It was a protective act. And that was something that all of the women reallylast. There are two things that you touched on that i wanted to ask about how they relate. One is a lot of survivor of vih sorry a lot of survivors of this kind of violence prefer to be called survivors rather than victims because of the association, you know, being passive or not having that comes with the label victim. But you also touched on Something Interesting that i find is kind of hard to not contradictory, but hard to reconcile that, which is what protect themselves by fighting back are sometimes seen as, oh, they were just monsters. And then the sort of aspect that they were hurt kind of glossed over, if that makes sense. So was wondering how in the various women you talk to if anyone like had an interesting way of reconciling those both wanting to seem active but then when they take action, you know, just just in a different way that makes sense. Yeah i mean its really complicated and i think like for them certainly the pain that they experience that led up to them fighting back was not something that was removed from their story and you know there is a lot of that in these stories. I think its its hard to reconcile that. But i thinkhat is really like at the heart of the book, like moves back forth ■ey a subjected to and alsoat2 the agency with which they acted. I think something that i it comes to mind when youre talking is that like i was really upset with myself a lot of years for being passive. And then i realized like the goal this book is not to say like, i wish had been active in that moment. I wish i had killed that man in that moment. The goal is to be more gentle with myself for understanding wt happens when women do. And i think we can hold both of those content for two more. Lives. You referenced that all these societies have strong sense of honor. The men in the societies do. ■;why do you think that these women had to take when somebody violated their honor, why they couldnt go to men in their lives, their brothers their cousins, their fathers, even though there is a strong sense of honor among the men in communities in which they live so actually in some cases they did. So thats actually a really cool part of this is that there were men that stood up for these women and in a lot of cases werent necessarily affected of like actually in the britney story. She calls her brother over after she was raped and he comes over to defend her. And that actually makes the situation even more mone at the. But he did come over to defend her and actually he took credit for having killed todd, the man who raped her,hich was because he said, like, hey, if i take credit, the cops are going to believe me and say, like, hey, its fine that you defended your sister like, i get it. Hey, buddy, like, i would defend my sister, too, if she was raped. But if britney said she killed them, she would go to prison. So in that case, that was her brother standing up toyou know,r husband was actually like a really quiet supporter of her. And i dont think angry could have ever the leader oga kind of husband, like her husband was just kind of like a choir it genial guy, kind of rare, actually, that he was so supportive of this. But he was. And and she checks case her dad was really quite amazing and supportive her he taught her how to drive even though everyone her villagid you letting a girl drive . Like what are you doing . And he just kept quietly encouraging her to drive. So i think that is a testament actually to like these women had kind of agency if there werent also men supporting them in their lives. Any last question . So because you mentioned it just just by like i met my tia, my dad. Im a kurd nows you know. So but he kept saying more women these twice. I got to ask favorite guys, female hero, because its known now the guy who made a wonder woman uses an s m free. I mean, what . But for some reason, i, i guess he was sort of like a so he wonder because he was a servant inside army. I. One more question over here. Which one . I actually dont have a favorite of them were created by men and so i dont necessarily resonate with them. Like you said. Thank you. Can we get a quickk you. Can we get a quick plug for, the first book . Could you talk about that real briefly just to remind everyone of your book, the heart is the first thing you. The heart of the shipping sea is a book about love and marriage in india, where i followed three couples for over a decade and interviewed them about their ned a lot from that book that i applied to this one. So anyways, thank you guys so really those people and thank you solid state for doing book payaso now im excited to