Transcripts For CSPAN2 The 20240704

Forum than by welcoming a dear friend and historyfr Doris Kearns Goodwin, and her very gifted producing partner, beth laski beth has been the coexecutive producer with doris for there for wonderful History Channel, a channel series washington, lincoln, theodore roosevelt, and most recently fdr. Together they form pastimes productions, which will next be producing a new series on the west with kevin. I auditioned costner. They have already created a unique and appealing look and style to thesehows. Youll see some of some sampling of it during this evening. Not only authoritative talking heads, but remarkable, authentic lo scenes featuring performers and settings that evoke the colonial revolutionary periods, the civil war, the progressive era, the new deal, and world war two. Scholarship and scenery. Discussion and drama. And tonight, a special focus on their Abraham Lincoln, of course. So were glad beth is here and we thank our History Channel friends for coming as well, and also for History Channels truly generousponsorship and support of the forum this year. Mary. Only a wonderfully generous donation to help make this big forum work, but also in case you thought those dvds just appeared in your packages by magic, it through the generosity of the history ch as for beths coproducer, what more can be said when emcees declare that this person needs been written for for doris. Not that thats going to stop me because im here. She is reallyf a national treasure. Not only one of our most respected historians, but i wouldug his story. And i suspect, you know the reasons. Wait till next year. No ordinary time. The fitzgerald and the kennedys. Lyndon johnson and the american dream. The team of rivals. The pulpit. Leadership in turbulent times. Classics by an author who has now added to her impact in nonfiction literature, including a pulitzer prize. A lincoln prize. Yes. A Richard Nelson current award. The definitive of motion picture. Because the oscar winning Steven Spielberg film of lincoln was on her. Her approach to the passage of the 13th amendment in the house of representative. And now television with the performance and docu dramas. History channel, in which with characteristic generosity, she shares the spotlight with lucky fellow historians. Allen guelzo, who is here today and Catherine Clinton and Edna Greene Medford for and offers fresh interviews featuring. Her featuring her latest reflection on the subjects she has mastered and obviously, as we all learn tonight, i dont have to convince you she shines the light further by utilizing very gifted actors who bring life to these heroes. So its its its not a team of rivals. Its kind of a bench of doris fans fans. If there is a medium she hasnt conquered yet, i dont know what it is. Ill just say that if i want to clone an exemplary, exemplary american historian, then they need look. No. Thats probably a dangerous thing to say legally. But we dont need a we have the original. So please join me in welcoming Doris Kearns Goodwin and beth laski. All right. So. Lets go back. Oh were up to this. T. So with all that doris has accomplished now with beth, the work hasseries of docu dramas. But so heres the elephant in the room. Why did decide to do television . And both of you, why did you decide that this was the next realm . Well, we really owe a lot to the history came to us. How lucky we were. I see. Mary donahue there. Shes my great friend and our friend. And they came to us and they asked us if wed like to work with them on something. And they came up with the idea of George Washington, which was a little scary to me because i never had studied George Washington. And everywhere i went, people would say, why arent you doing George Washington . And i thought, oh my god, im now years old. It will take me ten years to do George Washington like it took me everybody else. And i write these big fat books and itll be another fat book. And then i thought wow, what if i were able to spend two years, which they projected projected this might take to do a six hour miniseries on George Washington. I could learn about him from my fellow historians on their shoulders. We could sit. And so beth and i had formed we started to form a production company. Ive known beth for 25 years. Began. You love origin stories, right . So ours is a great story. So when when i had not even married mybut he was in washington dc and he his son from his first marriage was going to the Georgetown Day School and had a best friend named andy blank love with Andy Blankstein, the best friend. We took him everywhere every summer. We took him whenever we were on vacations. He became my other son. And when w california, after was getting the quiz show movie made, he came with us and he met beth laski and they and wife. So Andy Blankstein was eight when i met him. And as you know, the story right. You can tell the rest of the story. Oh, well, i had a lot of pressure because before very early on in our relationship i had to get a stamp of approval. So had to come meet th clan. And i was very very nervous. And it turned out well. But it was it was a little scary and a little intimidating for me. A month in, two on be on my way to cape cod to to spend time with the goodwins. So immediately said to andy, dont f this up. Shes great. Anyway so we started to work on George Washington and the thing was we had a team i mean, between history and two great guys who were working from, from rail spitters. Right right. From ralphs going, yeah. Matt ginsb and oh my gosh. Tim. Tim hill i just went like, yeah. Tim healy and they were terrific. And they held our hand through this because we had not done this before. And so it was really great to have them by our side and to have mary and eli and all of the people on the history side to help us. And i think what mattered so much was that it was collaborative. I mean, before my husband died, which was shortly before we got ined him as a partner every day to work with. So it wasnt lonely because im not a very social person, id rather be with people than being alone. Im not the typical kind of writer, but i had all the time. But then when he was gone, it was really lonely. And then somehow i had that whole teamh with History Channel. So it made a huge difference. And then we produced in two years i learned all about george. And so thate its 75. I pivoted to another whole world of dementia and im very grateful to history as a result. So i thinktion that might be on the minds of your readers, im sure everyone here is a good one. Reader is, with all due respect to mary and the group. So how much how much editorial control do you guys have . And how much does History Channel you what you must do or should do . Well, we knew so little at the beginning, to be honest, and we had to hold their hand. They had to hold our hands. And sometimes we would say, wed like this or that. And theyd have to tell us, well, no, thats not really your role as an executive producer. And yet then they were really we really became partners. I mean, there was no question right from the beginning, right . They let us be involved in the early storytelling, the outline everything. Yeah, that was really amazing for us because we were learning as we went along and yes, we did get our hand slapped maybe once when we went too far, but we didnt know what. We didnt know. So they, they really guided us. Its been really amazing, but weve been involved with every step of the process and its a lengthy there are a lot of people involved. It really is a team, a big team of people that it takes to put these things together. So were going to the next project, the lincoln series. So im going to cue the clip. Ladies and gentlemen some you may have heard of him, his story has been passed down from one generation to the next. Fourscore and seven years ago, he felt that democracy in its purest form is for all people, all persons held as slaves shall be sent forward and forever free. But theres something deeper than what he did. Its about who he was poverty. Havent done anything to make anyone remember the day ever live. Hes living proof that americans can rise from obscurity to power with that wit and that charm and that intellect is better to stay sound and be thoughtful and to speak up and move down. He has a deep sense of empathy. He takes the declaration of independence. All men are created equal and turns it into a nation his moral compass. As the country is breaking apart, theres a turning point where hes going have to take a stand. Will be on your hand. Blood is already on my hand. You can learn how to be a war to fight. He was willing to admit he was wrong. And to change. We can attack immediately. He was the right person at the right time. If we let this stand for one minute now, we might as well say goodbye to the whole thing. Union democracy. Oh. You you had. You had some pretty good gets there, right . I, i recognize one of those guys. I think, you know whats a lot like president obama . I thought you were going to say it looks a lot like, you know, no more glasses. Its out of sight. So what what might strike people for who this group watched every documentary series about lincoln and there were others as we know in the last few years. But this is a stylist this is stylistically different theres graham to add the drama and and clearly production value. So what how did you come to this formatstory channel had done this before us and its a great they sometimes call it they sometimes call it docu dramas. But what it allows you to do is to have the ordinary experts who come. I dont meet that the experts are ordinary. The idea of experts who can provide the story, what what you really want, whatever youre going to produce is a story. I mean storytelling, as lincoln said, people remember stories better than back facts and figures. Theres something in our brain th to want a story that has a beginning, a middle and an end. So in looking for the story were able to mix together in this of talking and the problem especially because george was first they didnt have any photographs of him they didnt have any film. All they had was stiff paintings. Theres no way youre going to understand who he is unless you get actors who can fill in the spaces that history cant. I remember when i was working with Steven Spielberg on on lincoln, he gave a talk, actually at gettysburg where he talked about the difference, a film and a history book. And he said the film can fill the spaces that maybe you dont know what somebody said in a conversation, you know, from a memoir or, you know, from a diary, what they might have said. And i when i was writing these books, i say i know what theyre thinking. Im living with them. You know, my kids used to tease me when i was working on franklin and eleanor. Theyd hear me in my study and id be talking to franklin, said, oh, franklin, she loves you. Just be kinder to eleanor. Forget that affair that he had so many years ago. Its aer and they come in. What is going on here . And i do think that i think what they were thinking. But you cant do it in the history form. But in a drama form you can. So it allows the viewer to not only see the larger picture and the that the experts can provide, but to see the intimate details that an actor like graham and mary and the people who played stanton and seward an combination think of intimacy. 30,000 feet in the narrator and then the storytelling that act that the people who are the historians provide. I love the combination i think its it really allows both things to be enhanced in a way that they wouldnt be otherwise by themselves. You know, to me this the series is in a the the broader series the series are in a sense, based on leadent times. And i just want to know if you were reminded as you both produced thiselincoln was influenced by washington, how much lincoln meant to teddy, how much teddy meant toh pointed out one time to me that they were like a big family tree, right . That you start with the last guy, Lyndon Johnson and his hero is fdr. In fact, he used to call him my political. Thats fdr. And theres a great of there was a one time when johnson was a young congressman and he met fdr and there was a picture of him and there was some guy in the middle and he cut the guy out of the middle. The picture was just him and fdr. But fdr said after meeting him, you know, i have a feeling theres something about that young guy. He may be the First Southern president or as incredibly something in him. And so then then you get fdr as hero and fdr as hero as Teddy Roosevelt. In fact, during this huge he just they knew each other because they were related to some extent. And of course, eleanor was related to Teddy Roosevelt because teddy uncle, because eleanor his father had died and etc. And and so all mixed in together, the genealogy of the thing is incredible. But anyway when and franklin got married, teddy her away and they said that teddy was superseded. Then there was nobody interested, the two of them. And all they c well, teddy loved to be, as you said, the center of attention. And so he liked to be the baby at the baptism, it was said and the bride at the wedding and the at the funeral while hethere. So anyway. But the summer that he was going through a big then teddys teddy teddy himself is reading about lincoln and when he goes to a big coal strike he spends the entire Summer Reading the nine volumes of nicolay and hay. And then, of course, lincoln, we know connected to washington as pointed out one time, its a very short history that we have and they really did feel like big old family tree and of course teddy has they had an extra advantage of having as his sister inheriting as secretary of state Abraham Lincolns former assistant private secretary the author of the book they coauthor of the book that he can solve. It is a very close connection by way, you left out the best part of the story. Thats not the best part, but another part that teddy would only agree to be best man at the wedding if it was held on columbus day. So he could also be the grand marshal of the parade. Oh, i just think that st patricks day, st patricks day parade just i killed the story. But the same idea, same idea same idea. And just af a block away to fifth avenue. Youre right. So lets lets turn our attention back to lincoln, because thats why werevw here. And lets have a look at the early years of lincoln in a new salem scene from the Abraham Lincoln docudrama. It was always interested in politics and loved politics. Thank you. In little towns like new salem, politicians running for office would come on saturdays and give speeches. Illinois needs railroads. You a railroad. You can get your goods to market all like me to stay assembly. And i swear ill bring the railroad right here to new salem. No you. I beg your pardon . Who said that . I did see the way i figure it. If they do build that railroad itll be near springfield. I saw as much in the paper. And how far away from springfield . By what, 20 miles. I wont do us a lack of good. See this fella . Hes right about us needing to get to market. But what we need a new salem is to widen the river so the steamships can get here. Then this town will take off like a rabbit in front of a pack ofwaterway and the railroad. I dont think so mr. How much are Railroad Going to cost . A lot, right . This fellow, you might be able to talk the hind leg off a donkey but if they build that railroad, there wont be a dime left. The tax money for our river. And well just be like the like a runt of the litter left behind squealing a mule when theres nothing left to do maybe there was something about the way lincoln spoke, he was able to translate complex issues into something simple in terms of the dailop within eight months of his being in new salem, the residents wanted him to run for the state leso wow, thats. Tell us a little bit about the art and set design because its its simple, but itsits very true. Yeah. Who who are the involved in that project . Again, a whole team effort a for lincoln we work with this Wonderful Company called radical media dave saranac heads radical media and hes partner and all in in the teddy one in lincoln and in and hes incredible he puts together this wonderfullly with a mood board they do that right in the proposal stage and then work out from there and. They hire the best people to put together the best sets and that and they do a lot of studying and we weve done a lot of that. And mary and they thy replicate, you know for in a in a really its so hard to explain but in a very evocative way, theyre able to replicate something that in some cases we dont have all the information. And so, again, they have to fill in where we dont know. And they also have to source all of these things and these these are not ten year projects. They are two year projects maximum. And so its a really big order in a short amount of time. Yeah. What i really love about this scene is first of all, the thing about graham is he plays lincoln the time hes like you so he wasnt supposed to be the young but then he was so good as the older they said, can you do this . Young it too. And he obviously did. But this this scene what i love so much about new salem is thats where lincoln starts becoming. A politician at 23 years old, as was said, he decides to run for the state legislature and he gives this amazing talk in those days, if you ran for the state legislature, you had to put out a that said what you are running for. It was called a handbill. And his is extraordinary. It starts you. Every man has his is to be esteemed of by my fellow man. Even at 23 he wanted something to accomplish so that people would remember who he was later. And then he said well, ive you know, i dont have any popular relatives to sustain me. I dont know a lot of you. Ill probably lose, but im so familiar with disappointment it will be okay. But he says, but if i lose, im going to come back five or six times until its really disgraceful. And then i promise ill never run again. And then he says, and if i make mistakes im going to im going to correct them. I mean, it was a one derful it was just a wonderful i mean, compared to other, you know Opening Statements of what theyre going to be doing. He kept his word, thats what mattered to him, right from beginning. Ant in that 23 year old and just just listen to the language when he talks about you know runts and cattle and things like that. Thats what made him so connected to the people because he understood their daily lives and he gets almost all the votes in his home town. Oh, that was a great thing. Even though he lost, he got 277 votes. Out of the 300 people in new salem. So the who knew him, he was a clerk in the general and they started following his career. They saw him reading books and poetry when he was not serving even though he served them well and theyd start writing fires for him to read at night. Then of his his upward climb. And even though he lost that first time, he wins second time. And then they all chip to give him possible suit. So that he could wear it to the state legislature because hed never any clothes to do. Its great to see the young lincoln. I think thats it. Just makes you connected to him from the beginning, the end. And ive always thought he might well have won that first time had he not reenlist voted in the black hawk war for another another spin, whatever its called. Yeah. And then and then course he doesnt get to campaign and he runs on his war record in absentia, which is not the most impressive on earth as he was the first to say. And of course, you argue in your book. Catherine ha argued in her book that lincolns steady but kind of stumbling and limited aspirations for Forward Momentum are irrevocably changed. Altered, magnified by his meeting with and courtship of mary lincoln. So lets take a look at Abraham Lincoln meeting. Mary in this clip. You play on a pawn that. I consider. I didnt expect to see you here. Thank you. Oh, mr. Douglasyou havent introduced your friend miss mary todd. Hes mr. Abraham lincoln. Mr. Matthew, im e over a cliff when everyone else is reined in theirncoln sees a road where you dont, mr. Douglas. Mr. Trump, i would to dance with you in the worst way. I. Lincoln had a great for women. He wasery bashful he was very shy. But that didnt mean that he was not always thinking about women. Mary todd was the bell of the town. She was beautiful. She was witty. She attracted many suitors. She was actually courted others she was educated. She came from a long line of diplomat, ambassadors, governors. She was very interested in politics. She was from a prominent whig political family. Her father was a slaveholder henry clay, who was lincolns political hero. I myself am a great man can play really well. Well, i think the lady like yourself, he interested in well i hope youll find im not like her ladies. Mr. Lincoln. And tell me, what is this, cliff . You determined to drive lincoln felt an instant connection to her and she. To him she saw something in him right away. Well, mr. Lincoln, you said you wanted to dance with me in the worst way. And you certainly did the dont look so wounded. Its not your dancing skills interested in. You know, what i love about that is . That thats a kind of sexy thing, she says embrace you know your dancing im interested it when i was on john stewart at one time they asked me about lincolns and i said, you know i think hes sexy. Now that is not the normal thing that we think about with lincoln. But theres this picture of him, im sure, you know in 58 before and, hes rugged and hes got that gray hair flat, you know, became it flying around. And i loved it. And i never i never got over it being teased every single time i went on john stewart or or stephen colbert, she thinks hes sexy. Became headlines married it and it was a headline in today i remember that sexy lincoln question mark yeah well pass over the line about all the hair though. Talk for a minute about again just branching out from the lincoln story a bit the the kind of the continuum of first ladies who had somewhat stormy relationships their husbands through the years but who still managed to exert huge influence by which by i mean, mary and eleanor in particular. Yeah. You know, i mean i think that we know theres been a lot of controversy in the lincoln world about marys influence on on lincoln. E clip, you know, that he she saw something the early on. She believed in him early, and he needed that condence. She gave him a channel into that larger world that she knew of. She knew poetry and politics and and i think she was very important in his life. And in the early days, when you read books in the 19th century about president s theyd hardly mention the wife they might be called mrs. Polk or mrs. Whatever, so that its a huge change in literature. I think that we understand the importance of women in the whole world, much less in th president s wives. Eleanor, of course, is sui. I mean Lincoln Lincoln lincoln. I get my guys mixed up sometimes. Fdr said of her that she was awelcome thorn in his side, but what thorn she was. I mean without so much, would not have happened. I mean eleanor was the person general about discrimination in the army that he had to assign a separate general whose only task was to deal with Eleanor Roosevelt. Sh conferences where only female reporters could come. So all of a sudden, the stuffy publishers had to hire their first female reporter. She was insistent on women going to work in the factories that they should have an equal role with men. The men said. At first all, theyll never learn how to operate these complicated machines distract the men on the Assembly Line production will go down. But of course, by the middle of the war, they had to open their doors to women and production went up when women wer e 60 of the workforce in the airplane factories and the and the shipyards. So these same old factory owners decided we better do a study and, figure ou women learn to operate these complex machines. So well and so quickly. I love the answer they came back on one of the study forms was very simple. When a woman, unlike aan would be asked to operate a new machine, she would ask directions. I like the men, any of us. I used to travel with you in the old days before the gps know what that means. But i mean, every every every president s wife and thats what its been so le president and the wives. Someday therell be a president ial spouse thats there for a woman. Someday, someday. But anyway everyone has as an influence on them, whethes private or public, and its important thing. And mary, mary still very complicated character. And it was grateful to catherine because she did such great work on her. And its shown in here. And shes a formidable figure, i think has to be reckoned with. And i think just to add to that what we really tried to do with all this series, really give a fair shake, the women, i mean, we really took a lot of time and and we talked to a lot of experts so that we were sure to really give them their due and we loved working with eleanor and mary and mary lincoln. Its been really exciting. And in with teddy too i mean to try to really explain that relationship the best we can in this format. And in just three weeks its the 75th anniversary of eleanors crowning achievement, the u. N. Declaration on human r as our friend craig simon says in his biography of chester nimitz, when when eleanor went on her tour of the South Pacific and nimitz met eleanor, he said privately, now i know who the brains of the family. So they say, let lets lets talk about lincoln as a communicator and of course, all eyes were on lincoln at the period that you just talked about when the sexy lincoln goes into the lincolndouglas debates. Now, im not going to let you forget that, especially becs take a look at this clip a scene recreating the lincoln debates. Lincoln felt that his life had been a flat failure compared to douglass. Douglas had gotten further than he had, and now theyre running against each other. The senate now i am no giant like judge. Im a mere mortal. So now his ambition is far exceeds my own. His party, they all him to be president. One day and, then they will all reap the benefits of his greatness. Yes, but nobody has ever looked at my lean like face and expected me to be president. People come these debates with all the fervent love and attention that they would bring to a giant sporting eventwere more important than. Any sporting event could have been. I am here to talk about basic principles. Now, if the is a man well, then my age and. Faith teaches me that all men are created equal and that there can be no moral right in connection with one man making a slave another. Belongs to all about principle. I careprinciple of self government, the right of the people to rule than i do the in prison. No. When a white man governs himself, that is selfgovernment. But when he governs himself and also governs another man that is more than selfgovernment that is despot despot. Incredible. Its just incredible. Ive watched it many times and it just doesnt get all. Youre just incredible in that role. Just spectacular really. You know, im so glad resisted the temptation to that that Robert Isherwood and hollywood fell to making their great lincolndouglas debates scene a nighttime scene daytime time events with people. So in the heat or in rain and chill, and thats, you know, whatever the drama of light poles, thats it. And yeah, graham is effective and very effective. And one of thehings that followed this in one of these real debates is showing how lincoln was able to spar with the crowd because it was really like football games, you know hit him again, hit them again, harder. Theyd be yelling from the crowd. And at one point, somebody yelled out at lincoln, two faced mr. Lincoln, and he had immediate response, if i had to faces, do you face . I mean, he was great that way. And youll see that on your dvds in my show. It just happens not to be in this class. But lets just going through all the subjects. Well, after washington, we dont know about well, we know about his communication when he did his his farewells troops, he evoked tears. But is that a common denominator that runs through the leadership . Oh, without a question. I mean, communication and adapting to the necessity of that. Exactly. Of the technology of the time. We we tend to talk alike after all these years. The technology this time. I mean, lincoln was lucky to live in a time when the speeches would be printed full in the papers, when they would then be pamphlet ized and people would read them aloud city city homes and. Then you come along. Teddy roosevelt and the newspaper papers have finally come into being the tabloid newspapers, and they l these sports headlines. And teddy had all those pithy statements, you know speak softly and carry a big stick. Dont hit until you have to, and then hit hard. I never knew what they even meant, but they sounded good. Even gave Maxwell House the slogan good to the very last drop. But even more importantly, he was have a phrase for it to do to distinguishes legislative program in in just a few words the square deal and that told everything about his whole presidency a square deal for the rich and the poor the capitalist and the wage. So he mastered the Technology Newspapers and needing to project a fighting image and needing to have something that could reach entire country. And then fdr of course comes along withhe perfect voice for the age of radio. And it was just a conversational voice. He made it intimate so that people felt he was really talking to them. He used small words rather than big. At one point, somebody drafted something for him, we want a more inclusive society. And he changed it to we want a society in which no one is left out. Its just so much more powerful. And theres stories. I mean, saul bellow said you could, the novelist, you could walk down the street on a hot chicago night and he could watch. Everybody was having the radio on in their kitchen or their living room. You could hear his voice coming out thea word what he was saying, because everybody was listening. So it was a common denominator which we dont have today with our divided network. Theres a story about a construction worker hurrying one night and somebody said, where are you going . And he said, well, ive to get home immediately because my idents coming to speak to me in my living room, its only i be there to greet him when he comes. And then of course the Television Comes and youve got jfkrs of that. And now we come to the tweet and where we are with a divided network and the inability, i think, for people to be listening to the same thing. Facts are not the same. Opinions are not only different, but facts are not the same. So we dont have that same power thatorms of communication had in many ways, they can reach many more people, but not with the same ability to create community that we had before. Although you know about partizan press, i should say we had a Community Back in the 1850s. One of our teachers scholars asked, me at lunch, whether it was true that before his fireside chats fdr would take a cap out of his teeth because it whistled and the was. Yes, absolutely. You know, the importance of the way that sound sounded. Yeah. On radio he could deal with it in oratory, but he knew that the whistle could be heard on radios and always tell the story about fdr that, you know, once who were, you know big fdr fans. Well, how often was he on the radio . And they said, well, every night, every night, like bing crosby or bob hope, he was always on the radio. What does it 29 . I mean thats right. He said that if he only gave 30 fireside chats a whole 12 years, he said, if my speeches become routine, they will lose their effectiveness again. Something our modern people should learn about right. But think about the now compared to these debates. I mean, these debates had philosophy. They had history, they had arguments, they had humor they had the crowd being part of it. They had literature, they had no moderators saying time up. Exactly. So, i mean, until the end and the humod they had over 60 minutes, 90 minutes and then 30 minutes, 3 hours of standing mostly. Yeah days. I know that this crowd would stand up for 3 hours about im not sure everyone else. Well weve talked about communications, weve talked about other forms of leadership. We should, of course turn to the area that doris perhaps in, certainly in the lincoln world is most for. And that is dealing with and the r word rivals. Lets take a look. A scene from Abraham Lincoln that takes us back to what a Cabinet Meeting might have been like in the 1860s. I if we sent troops down south well lose virginia arkansas all the warring states. Time is running out, abandoning the fort inevitable. We cant let the rebels humiliate us by overrunning it. The sooner we leave on our own, the better. Now we have a clear cut majority. An agreement. So its decided. No, its not decided. Secretary seward. Its not decided until i decided decided. Mr president. Now. I reckon that everything secretary seward says is true. But there are also other things are true. One of them being that im not willing to go back on my word and im also not ready to give up. The way i see it is that surrender would be ruinous to the union. But i discouraging the folks at home and our adversaries and it might get this illegal confederacy recognized by foreign powers. I have talked to a navy whos got a plan to send supplies by sea, by a warship. And i have decided to do. Lincolns response was brief and firm. That puts seward pretty firmly in his place. And it is something of a tribute to seward that. He understood that lincoln was the boss and that there was more to Abraham Lincoln that he had originally. Yeah exactly. There was more to it. And graham handled his role as lincoln with his team of rivals, he actually was the leader with the actors as well and was able to work with them on, their lines, and he would have them to apartment and and he didnt take a moment off in the months that he did this. I mean he barely slept. He barely eight he he worked nonstop and really built that community, not just as a fellow actor, but really embodying lincoln. It was really extraordinary to hear about it. We would do zooms with with him as he going in the process and to hear what he was up against and actually looking at michelle. Michelle was our lifeline. Anytime we didnt know the answer to something which happened you know even with doris he was been doing this for a long time and michelle would be our life line and we would say, michelle, help win. What . Here, what . What did this look like . And so its really great and but graham just embodied lincoln in a way that it just blew away you know . And the great thing is of course, that when lincoln, as you all know, couldnt sleep that first night after hes elected, he makes that deon need to put these three chief rivals into my cabinet, each one of whom was more educated, more celebrated, each one of whom thought he should be president instead lincoln and his friends said how are you going to do this . Youre going to look like a figurehead. And he famously said, the country in peril. These are the strongt,most able men in the country. I need them by my side. But my old friend Lyndon Johnson might have put that same idea in less noble language. Its better to have your enemies inside the tent out than outside the tent. Not so noble, but. But thoughtful. And for our cspan audience michelle is michelle crowl, who is the lincoln in civil war specialist at the library of congress and the keeper of the lincoln papers. The biggest treasure in the world. For those of us who write about life, i guess i just that everyone knows Michelle Krowl you know, the scene us back to the moments when Cabinet Meetings actually took place routinely they dont anymore this kind of photo now and where consent process was kind of required more in the Israeli Cabinet system where they need a majority of the cabinet. So i think thats recreated that i think thats really right what what lincoln did i mean it has an enormous meaning with the emancipate proclamation is by having these right within his cabinet they represented different factions in the north. I mean, the big problem for lincoln was not only the south but how to keep north together because theres radicals. Theres moderates in this, conservatives in their right sitting next to him in those Cabinet Meetings. So if he can get them to come along with what he wants to do then heso he searched for months to try and talk about what to do about emancipation. And there were some who thought he should should never do it and he could not reach a consensus at first. So he finally decided and this is something i think leaders have toome to, that you may have to just make a decision and he goes to the cabinet, as you all know and says, ive made my decision im going to issue this emancipation id like your thoughts on its timing and its implementation and and what he really wanted was for all of to at least publiclyo agree. But the great thing was, even though several not agree still they never said it publicly because haformed some sort such respect for him. He had them with kindness. He had shared credit when credit needed to be shared, he shouldered blame whi when was them perhaps. And there was a sense in which he said he wrote handwritten letters to them all the time telling me, you did a good job said people like a he had all those emotional qualities of of knowing how to deal with a team so that when that huge moment came, they kept their private dissent, private and it meant that the country saw a unified kind of leak free. Not always, but i mean, if wed ever read what they said about other in their diaries and letters right . Oh, my god. It would have been incredibly another another side of lincoln thats explored in your writing and in in darker drama. And that isln as commander in chief. So lets cue to that. Iman ford well enough. We did not expect strength of the cowboy to there was a lot of bragging before. The fighting started but what we need noor who hadrious minded, hard fighting soldiers and we need them than 90 days those boys out there so if you dont mind sir, i prefer you dont do too much to write it boy, weve got a special visitor at east end. Understand. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Hey, no, no, no no, no. Go to your boys. I like it myself. Colonel sherman here tells me that its not military. So ill just say this before tough battle. And we came in second. But brighter days are coming. So if you need anything, free to speak of. Mr. President. Mr. President , can i really ask you anything . Yes. Go ahead. Well, my 90 days are up and ive got to get home. Spoke to the colonel, sir, but the conversation . Well, he said hed shoot me. Shoot you . Well, colonel sherman threatened shoot. I trust his word because i believe he might just do it. So the 90 days are up. Of course youre free to go. But just know this. This isnt over. Your country still needs you no need to. I hope you boys all reenlist. Yes. Yes. But i need every single one of you. Ev you. Yeah. So this is, of course, right. After the loss at bull run and the soldiers took him in hithere were more than 2000 of them visited the white house to complain about something. But the important thing is he went to the battlefield more than a dozen times, the active battlefield duried to bolster the morale of the soldiers to visit the wounded in the hospital and to really get a sense of where they were at and that kind of intelligence was what allowed him to know timing. Its such an important thing for a leader is when to do what . He later said that because talking to the soldiers, he could figure out when they would be willing to have black soldiers amidst their met their their troops when he was able to do the emancipation proclamation if hed done it six months earlier, he would have lost the border states. Have you done it any longer . You have lost the morale boost it provided. And so it was the perfect timing. On january first 19, 1863. But there was a problem, as im sure you all know, which is that morning he had signed. So many he had had open house in the morning anybody could come to the white house and anywhere, any day of the week actually. But on new years day, they could all come and hed shaken so many hands at was numb and shaking. So he put the pen down and famously said, you know if anything my whole soul is in this thing. But if i will say he hesitated. So he waited till could sign with an unusually bold hand. But all of that came from the accessibily that he had to t troops, to the people. I mean, ordinary people come in, in the mornings and talk to him and him. Why they wanted a clerkship or a poicola and hay. You know, mr. President , you dont have time for these ordinary. He said youre wrong. These are my Public Opinion base. I must never forget the popular assemblage which i have come. So that trait in a leader is so important and was beleaguered by all those people who kept running ins why he had to go away to the soldiers home. To be able to think and think through the emancipation proclamation, to get away from them for a while and of the things i wanted to add is our leader in in making this it was malcolm and he was our director and as you it was just so stunningly beautiful he had such a vision and was so committed to telling story the way we all wanted to. I mean, there were very few times that we disagreed things with history, with radical, you know, with malcolm. I mean, there were and we all had conversations. If there was something that somebody strongly about that somebody else didnt or if there was some, you kn something that was going to take more time or cost more money. I mean these the conversations that we had very help. Mary donahue oh, about a lifeline. Yes, absolutely. But that was the thing. And malcolm is was just extraordinary and worked so graham, i mean, they really its quite beautiful brothers during writing, not like writing on your own, right . No, like a book. Oh, my gosh. Its such a team. A team of nonwriting roles right . Yes. I mean, no, its your vision its your words. Its the phrases and the interpretations. We know from you. But in this newwhich makes it so, so new and vital thats what i liked. Well, and were so lucky to have the History Channel as our partners. I mean, it starts with the boss. Thats paul mcgarry and rob sharon now and eli lehrer and mary donahue and jen wagman and dr. Kim gilmore. I mean, theres so many people that come together to make this happen. Its its just a joy for us because to reach people in a different way than a book might or, that a news program might. I mean, to have this kind of format and to this this leeway i mean, we this was supposed to be a six hour documentary. And the first cut came in at seven and a half. And normally they would say trim, trim trim. Mary, they watched it and they were they made an exception and they made it seven and a half hours, which is a huge amount of time. I mean, think about how much time graham was on the screen, how many different scenes he shot in one day. Its just its and, you know, just to add i mean, obviously the other thing that were seeing pieces of here because weve chosen the acting scene is but the historians that were brought in are the key to this whole i mean, theyre the majority of the time talking and it was such it for me to get to know them. I mean, they knew each other this lincoln w family that i know one. And they had already known each other. And i felt like such a rookie getting into it, but it was such a great treat, a result learn from each one of them. And i felt like, you know, we would the interviews would take place. Wed be involved with that as writing questions and fitting all the puzzle pieces together. I mean, that was really i mean we have a script that, you know, it starts with an outline and then it goeso scripts and we revise the scripts. But you have the scenes and then you fit in experts or you have the experts and you fit in the scenes. And looking at it it was really we the both pieces needed each other. Yeah, lets, lets t time to do a couple more aspects of the lincoln story and the the film probes lincolns crmind expanding relationship with Frederick Douglass. So lets have a look at a scene that that illustrates that. Mr. President , im frederick. Oh, you are . Mr. Douglass. Glad to see you. Have a seat. I read your recent hesitate and vacillating policy of the president of the united states. Tardy and hesitating, perhaps, but vacillating. I tend to speak my mind well. I admire that. I expect its what youre here for. It is. Mr. President , i to do it with my heart. But i cannot in good conscience, recruit for the union army any longer. First, there was the issue of pay, and now the retaliatory order. And your response . Its too little, toomy own sons are fighting as if they have halters around. Their necks. I am in a difficult position, mr. Douglass. If i could find the rebels respond before acting out those orders, i could execute them. But to kill just any captured rebel, youll agree that theres difference between stating the principle and putting it into practice and had i issued the order any sooner, there would haagainst the measure. But now that the the blacks have proven themselves and american abandoned in fort wagner public, opinion is changing. Oh, you see, i to wait you you say all this, but i hear only one word. , wait. For equal pay. Wait for justice. When we are done waiting, what will be left of us . Youre right, mr. Douglass douglass, know it will. Come once i take possession and never retreat from it. Wow. So. Tell how you decided to visualize and dramatize that very complex relationship. And because its quite powerful and its got several issues, you know, conflated fo reasons of the dramatic story, but a lot to unpack there. Yeah, well, luckily the meeting was pretty well describeddouglass and by others so it was the way to do it. Because you knew we had these conversations. We even know that thats what douglass said. They talked about. So but the important thing was something even larger, i think is that it showed the relationship between an agitator on outside and the inside politician. And they form a certain important leverage with each other. I mean, one of the thgs that said after after lincoln died was that if you judged him by abolition standards, he would seem tardy cold. But if you judge him by the standards of a president who has to get the country going along with him, then hes swift and and resolute. And thats something so important to understand that they have different constituencies theyre dealing with. And and that one of the things lincoln later said was, dont call me a liberator. It was the Antislavery Movement and the Union Soldiers that did it all. And thats part of the history of social justice in our country. The Progressive Movement was there before Teddy Roosevelt, the Antiwar Movement was there in the sixties. Civil rights movement, of course, was there before lbj and thats why the citizens are responsible for so much of what happens. And thats what we wanted to show here, too. It wasnt it was the people who are from the ground up making that change. And Frederick Douglass symbolized that. So i think thats why this was important to have this as a as a theme running through the entire story. And when you talked about the meeting was so well documented you know, in the parts where we didnt know, we worked with a team of writers and obviously they did a lot of research and that Elizabeth Ball and her team under with radical and then al showrunner who then kept it all together and that was Sarah Enright and all of these pieces the parts that we knew we were able to lean into the parts that we didnt we were able to research. And thats why and for time and efficiency sometimes we had to put some things together and then we hadorexperts that we would run it by them to say, you know, does this seem plausible . Is okay . And, you know and we wanted to s and true as we could to lincolns story and to the country story. What liked about this scene in particular is that it reminds people or should remind people that leadership is not all about yelling and carrying on and staking a position for much from which one cannot change sometimes. But its keeping different. Arguing ments and Interest Groups at bay, perhaps finding a middle ground displeasing almost everyone to get to the truth and the right and learning as you go alongis is going to change your opinion when. Yes, of course. You need to. This is not a heroic lincoln scene. Its kind of a frustrating lincoln scene. But that, as you pointed out, is an aspect of leadership too. Im glad weve saved this scene as our lastrains. I love all trains. I think this is lincoln on a train. So that does it for me. So lets lets see this. Hello. Oh, pleasure bringing julia. Oh whats your name. Hello. I was going to see you. Hello. Pleasure to meet you. No, youre even taller than they say. I am. Better look here you are. You had the rebels here this past summer. You just too many. I had three sons for that one know they come home to. Thank you. Our country a great service. Sir. Thats gettysburg, right . Yeah, verywerful. How many mothers . Widows. Glad handing city did he experience and the pain that must have caused him. And of course the pain he he saw others of. I dont know. We can comment further but in your experience, doris, are leaders created by the moment or our leaders just born leaders . And can take on anything . You know when was in graduate school. These are the kind of questions would talk about at night our leaders are made. Does the man make the times or the times make the man kind of nerdy things but it was fun when we were young and actually those are the things that that were so interesting to me in the leadership of and i think this is a example what you see lincolns face there is which is a quality that i do believe he was born with. I mean, i think some are born with it. They say even when he was a young little kid, that his turtles to make them wriggle. And he said, thats wrong. Would you want to hurt another being . And he went against the t times when hes walking home with people and there was a drunken man who had fallen into a puddle and it was very cold out and went by and he went back and him home because he couldnt bear the thought of the pain that he was feeling. But i think other people can learn empathy from experience is i mean, theres a famous story Teddy Roosevelt, who was against a bill when he was in the state legislature that, would regulate cigar making tenement. So the families were living in terrible conditions where the cigars being made in these tenements. But he didnt, as most conservatives didnt at that time that should regulate private property. But the union guy said, can i take you and show you the situation . And he saw it. Something happen inside, some feeling of identifying nation with this is not right. And he not only championed the bill, but he became the sponsor and we and we made that a scene in our in our night, that scene in the Teddy Roosevelt thing, because were trying to were trying to look exactly for where these qualities come from. And when i think about empathy which i think was a central quality in Abraham Lincoln and how could you just discuss it if you dont see on his face . Thats thats where the acting really can matter. But empathy is what i think were missing in our country more than anything right now. People feeling other peoples points of view. Warned democracy would be in peril if people different sections and regions and parties began seeing each other as the other rather than as common ame citizens. And what we do with that, i think, is the challenge of this generation. I, i sometimes wish that we could go back to some idea of national service, which Teddy Roosevelt was for Eleanor Roosevelt for just so the kids coming out high school go to a different part of america and experience those lives. I was in the military right after 911. He graduated from harvard in june of one. Join the army in september. And he said nothing what was like to lead a platoon of kids from all over the country from different points of view and meld them together as a and thats thats our challenge. I think this country right now as to how to feel and empathy for people from different points of view that that need to be put together as a commme need that in this country. And we see that in lincolns face right there. And if more of us could have that, i think we we thats the thing about lincoln, you know, the one thing that when i first started studying lincoln, i went to david donalds house because i lived in concord and he lived in lincoln. And he took me td showed me all of his books. And i was so scared, i didnt know the 19th century. It was so huge to take on lincoln. But i just wanted live with him. I thou i no idea how extraordinary it would be except david donald said to me, you will never regret living with Abraham Lincoln. And and its true. Yo youd be a better person, that somehow he had the normal emotions of anger and envy and jealousy that we all do. But he felt like had to damp them down. If you let them fester, itll. Itll poison you. So every time one of those emotions come, i think. Abraham would be mad at me. Stop f daniel daylewis when he started doing lincoln. I it to tony kushner i told it to graham. I said, you will feel like youll be a better person it and all here for . Theres some camaraderie in this crazy group when i listen to you singing last night, the top of your lungs and i hear you rundach other. There is a sense of connection here because we feel connected to this man. So im so glad that lincoln has brought us all together. Thank you. And where it. And you know, 28 years, i can truly say that you bring out the best in us as well so we want before we we tonight to express our gratitude and our admiration to doris and to beth for their accomplishment and just finding way to bring this story to millions more people and Jonathan White is going to me on stage. Doris has won every award there is to win, and shes our Lifetime Achievement award. We created a new award and hopefully, hopefully it will go to becau setting bar is frank polk in the audience . Stand up frank. Now,nk is, as you may know our official lincoln form sculptor. So we engaged him to help create the first Lincoln Forum history and film award, which john and i will now present with great affection and respect to Doris Kearns Goodwin and beth. Look. Of. Oh one. So without. So without giving too much analysis of a sculpted work, its still damp it its kind of a frank signature standing li but as you may see, like an oscar, theres a roll of film here and a strip of film. I know we dont use film anymore. Mary but, you know, its symbolic and its sort of a combination. And. Lincoln yeah, yeah. Lets hold on