Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing 20240704

[background noises] i am pleas to call todays hearing to order. I want to thank you all for joining senator capitol and me too explore topics and that is recycling. Specifically we are here to discuss the sustainability policy called extended producer responsibility and how these programs can improve recycling infrastructure and recycling practices. So what exactly is responsibility extended responsibility establishes a system in which financial responsibility for products through the end of their life is ifo producers of those. And how to extendol worker . Well, states or countries adopt policies that may require producers to pay a fee that is associated with their goods to a producer whose responsibility organization. And then these organizations can use the revenues for the expansion of recycling infrastructure. And for consumer education. Consumer packaging materials like plastic, like cardboard or aluminum theory as we know greatly the respect materials such as paper have more viable products and viable markets rather than others. We are pretty good inhis recycling. Extended producer responsibility policies can consider these differences in materials and fen incentivize producers to make more packages sustainable. For example in colorado there working to establish a program where fees will be assigned to goods based on their environmental impact. Products that are more easily used or recycled will have a lower associated fee for the producer to pay. Difficult to recycle repackaging like plastic films may have a higher associated fee in order to pay a lower fee in the system in producers it can can make packaging as a lower environmental costs. Programs and several other states have also shown real potential. In california, oregon, and maine have recently established extended producer responsibility package policies for packaging regardless of the material type. More states adopt these policies it is critical the federal government understand how to support responsibility efforts moving forward. We are hoping todays discussioe activity going on in our states and what the proper role of the federal government should be. Extended producer responsibility policies can also help drive recycling rates up. Siganizations and governments can use revenue they generate to improve recycling infrastructure and expand access to recycling and communities including rural communities. Right now Consumer Packaging makes approximately one third of all plastics produce and ill say that again Consumer Packaging makes approximate a third of all plastics produced. And sadly as we know plastics are not commonly recycled in america. According to the epa, 2018 of pe recycled in the u. S. Let me say that again. Less then 9 of plastics were recycled in the u. S. Just a couple years ago. You put that figure into perspective its even smaller than the National Recycling rate for all materials which is roughly 32 . As members of this it committee have heard me say it morethey wd like to say find out what works and do more of that. These policies actually can work. For example the extended Producer Responsibility Program in British Columbia was able to achieve an impressive residential recycling material rate of 86 . 86 . Pretty amazing before it was implemented in that country. And as we will hear tod i also been a surgeon private Sector Support extended producer responsibility policy, why is that . We know what most americans want to make sustainable purchasing choices and that number is growing. According to a 2020 survey conducted by mckenzie mortgage more than 60 of responders said they would pay more for a produ w packaging. Large Consumer Brands have noticed most companies have established ambitious sustainability goals such as using a minimum amount of content in their packaging extended producer responsibility policies can help producers meet those goals. However it is worth noting the extended producer responsibility policy on their own will not fi. These policies must work in tandem with other investments in infrastructure and education and data collection. Fortunately congress has a track record of making such investments. As you may recall a part of the bipartisan info structure law which was written in this committee and managed on the floor by this lady right here in yoursame law in 2021. Our committee worked to secure three to illion to strengthen recycling infrastructure and provide recycling education grants across the u. S. Of a. Bipartisan work to strengthen our nations systems does not stop there. Last year adapted to other two r legislation at the urging of senator capitol. Senator boozman and myself. Smooth displays which help gather much needed data to improve access to recycling infrastructure and rural and■l disadvantaged communities. This congress et cetera capitol, et cetera boozman and i are committed to see both of these in closing we know recycling is a win win. If it is an environment it can also benefit at the same time in the economy. That is the kind ofin situation we all look for it. Thats why our committee continues to consider further opportunity to support better forward to hearing from our Witnesses Today before review and we welcome you. Thank you for joining us. You brought your family there in the committee will turn to Ranking Member capitol and her leadership and we look forward to your marks. Thank you good morning to all of you. It is nice to be here this morning for this committees continued focus on sustainability and Waste Management and underscore the fact we have a ways to problem both here in this country and around the world. I get a complex issue its easy to sit here and lisette all the problems but its very, very difficult to start finding realistic solutions. One crowd sandwich and all plastic production tomorrow and that doesnt make sense. Acknowledging our continued reliance on plastic and working to prevent is not mutually exclusive private sector sustainability goals international developme indicatt with global footprints or staring down uncertain regulatory and Economic Future for it my primary focus in evaluating extended producer responsibility policies under consideration is making sure they are grounded in reality. Consider the downstream impacts to everyday consumers included regressive cost to be passed down. Especially in rural areas currents recycling program limif standing up once are more expensive. Companies cannot operate do■ not have in mind. And disposal requirements to sell their products if every state has their own. Plastics rents and other areas show estates with the biggest population and the most stringent restrictions will become the regulatory floor. Could unfairly dictate to state like mine that have structural impediments to recycling access and resources defining that necessary infrastructure. With standards and its market uncertainties as to why we need to bring these types of coersations nationwe policy. To a potential revenue driver and a competitive advantage in district Government Environmental Community Must Work Together to achieve outcomes that protect the outcome and grow the economy. To become achievable we must be in my opinion and avoid mandates rent epr or circularity that may have unintended consequences. The federal standards are imposed it may show growth in the emerging sector and in the emerging sector. We see this happening irs guidelines on Hydrogen Tax Credits with no basis in law or stifling the development thats in my state in my hydrant hub thats why he bring it up. The cannot be allowed to happen in theecycling and Waste Management. During todays hearing were likely hear statements such as the devil is in the details or if done correctly these precautionary will arise in our discussions. They emphasized the need to discuss all the potential consequences both intended and unintended. Done correctly epr could significantly improve domestic recycling reduce and provide new opportunities economically. Equally so a poorly crafted epr scheme late regressive burdens on consumers, privilege Large Companies over Smaller Companies open the door for targeted bands for materials out of as plastics. I can understand the rationale i have yet to see a proposal that adequately is addressing all these concerns thats why we are here today to start in epr scheme the importance of chemical recycling. Well never improve meaningful rates of must carefully consider what stakeholders but stakeholdershould have a role in decisionmaking such as it Waste Management industry this often left out temperate when you think about the appropriate role of government by the last thing us Companies Need are another layer of bureaucracy to navigate. I look forward to hearing the panel and look forward. Thank you, senator capitol. Now we will hear from each of our three witnesses we are pleased to welcome each of you. I think we will hear first the h stand for . For it herbert. The chairman ceo sc johnson and son. Makes products many of us have in our homes and households including is it myers or mayors . Mrs. Myers. And windex cleaners which i have not used since yesterday. [laughter] quickly told him he is at last weekend. [laughter] they also have ambitious sustainability goals to make products more recyclable and reusable. Doctor johnson, thank you for joining us today. You are welcome to begin your testimony at this■ time, thank you. Thank you. Thank you chairman carper and Ranking Member capitol and distinguished members of the committee for the opportunity to talk today. This is an incredibly important topic. I am a scientist by education but ive spent the last 37 years in myeer in the packaged goods industry. And as a ceo of a large Global Consumer Goods Company that is a big user of i see plastic into very different ways. On one hand i status the most useful versatile costeffective materials developed in the last century it has brought extraordinary benefits to human life and wellbeing on this planet. On the other hand as a lifeline conservationist i have seen how most profound global pollutants thats affecting planetary animal and human health. The challenge is reconciling those two perspectives. How we as a society can and would in a most economically and least disruptive preserve the benefits of plastic is brought to humanity while preventing the vast amounts of plastic that end up in landfills or worse end up in the environment where it can affect animal and human health. Now our company has a long history of environmental leadership. I have long seen our companies of plastic and packaging waste one of our top issues it is something we have been working on for very long time. We launched our first one to percent recycled plastic bottle 33 years ago back in 1990. We have continued to take numerous actions and launched many other initiatives to reduce our plastic footprint. We are going to continue to do so whether it is improving pcr content in our products, providing reit use, refill options or other initiatives. However, for all of our countries working i cannot say i can raise my hand and saye made. No matter how many innovations of one company can try or take,l voluntary actions can only go so far. It is incredibly difficult for ndividual business or even businesses as a whole to make unilateral progress on Plastic Waste. It takes everyone■ in the plasc ecosystem working collectively together from plastic manufacturers, packaged Goods Companies like ourselves, retailers, recyclers to individual users or Plastic Products all coming together, working collectively because the scale up matters. Scale at retail, skillet recycling, scale and supply, scale and Education Programs. Scale through everyone in the passaging value chain working together holistically. O get expensive ineffective piecemeal approaches. ■[ enacted and goals are set and the more time that is given to achieve those, the less the disruption there will be to business, the economy and consumers. Time will allow for Product Innovation and recycling Technology Innovation and allows for Education Programs and allows for an investment in capacity into recycling and recg infrastructure and many other things. Many organizations have been working to support and i think what the World Wildlife fund has done inticular has created some excellent work to educate on how its workable in closing i would like to say i believe it is a critical issue that needs to be addressed and a practical good way to make substantialougl Regulatory Framework where you can achieve skill and take spots ability for thef the products and i think the sooner goals and expectations are set for the industry and a time is given to meet those thank you. Doctor johnson, thank you for leading us and now turn to aaron simon for her comments. Vice president and head of Plastic Waste and business at the World Wildlife fund. Ms. Simon has been with the World Wildlife fund since 2011, is that right . , efforts to engage in the private sector to reduce plastic pollution. While commanded you are recognized for the next five minutes or so. Thankarper and Ranking Member ouppercaseletter and other distinguished members of the committee for the opportunity to testify today. Before i came to wwf, i was a packaging engineer and scientist working here for ten years. He spent a lot of time designing packages and for products both that were largeformat and moved to the rooms that started up on walmart shelves. So when we talk about this topic today, not only am i passionate about it but i can talk about it from a few different perspectives. Thats maybe why we invited you to come. [laughter] World Wildlife fund is one of the worlds leading sciencebased conservations. Weve been around for over 60 years in our mission is to protect the worlds resources for future generations and to help to address some of the Biggest Challenges facing the planet today like plastic pollution. Plastics are essential. Its modern life. Theyve helped us to overcome insurmountable challenges, but the cost of that innovation has been quite extreme. The u. S. Is generating most of the Plastic Waste in the world thats ending up in the coastlines and communities and its estimated globally there is 11 Million Metric Tons of plastic pollution entering every year. Just a little bit of perspective that is a dump truck per minute so in the hour we might be talking that would be 60 dump trucks heading to and they are ending up everywhere from the ecosystems we are trying to protect to the city sidewalks. Impacting the communities and economies and of course leading to the growing Health Crisis of micro plastics in the food and water. So to clear, it isnt antiplastic. We think it can be a cornerstone to they dont have a place in nature they are ending up. Currently we depend too heavily on the single use economy where we make news and get rid of plastics and we need to turn the system into a circular economy and thats going to require a multifaceted approach that protects the communities, the environment and the economy. And we see this and our partners e untapped opportunity for the u. S. And its leadership and so massive that if we were to start today to transform the Plastic Economy into a circular one, we could save more than 4 trillion in direct and environmental and social cost by 2040. Policies like extended producer responsibility can be a critical part of the solution. The robust recycling and other parts of the world. And it creates powerful incentives for companies to reduce and designed for the recycle ability and mitigate the risk of that leaking into the environment. The shift of the responsibility the objective is for the physical organizational and financial structure to be shared between the producer and the government. It creates a structure that increases the end of life and allows for better environmentally sound treatment and provides incentives for manufacturers to design more resources and invest in infrastructure. The epr principles are broadly supported by industry and other ngos and include an industry like the governance model. It would ideally be established at the federal level and in this type of model the governments of the oversight but the day to day management and obligations to an industry led producer responsibility organization. In my written testimony i provided more details of that and recommended parameters for the system. They hope the Conversation Community will help pave the way for congress to develop and enact legislation and we are not alone in that. We have a track record working with companies to improve their footprints and advocate for policy. In my written testimony i will elaborate on the work with Companies Like cocacola and walmart. The Companies Support the federal apr as well as corporations up the line. They are also knowing the American Public is fully behind you. I know that soon to be released from wwf public polling will show 85 that Plastic Waste pollution is a concerning problem that requires immediate Political Action to solve. This issue is one that we can all agree on and a circular economy is the only way forward to help us to get there and the government and industry outline the best in class system. Members of the committee have introduced the accountability act into the recycling infrastructure and accessibility act and at the break free from plastic act. b recognition of the growing problem and the keen interest in addressing it. Welldesigned federal apr provides another opportunity to pass bipartisan legislation. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and for the committees leadership. It sounds like a lifetime of leadership in the private sector and the nprofittor. Finally we will hear from dan. My sister grew up in danville virginia and one of my Favorite Places south of dover they have a fire company. We have a lot of volunteer Fire Companies im sure. People ask me and i always see the fire hall. We are honest that you are here with us today. I understand you are executive director. How do you pronounce it . Representing a wide range of stakeholders in americas packaging supply chain and we are delighted youre here. Please proceed. Thank you. Good morning. We are having an interesting movement of people that comes in to the Committee Hearing room the likes of which ive not seen in a long time and a lot of them are young. It looks Like High School age and i think they are interested in recycling. Thats a beautiful thing and we are happy to see this. Please proceed. That is democracy. Good morning, chairman carver, Ranking Members of committee. I am the executive director of the American Institute for packaging and the environment. I very much appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today on this important topic of extended producer responsibility for Consumer Packaging. This is a core issue for the u. S. Packaging industry. All stakeholders Work Together to craft and implement effective ilities, solutions for the package and recovery and recycling. We are the only material inclusive trade association ente packaging and value chain in the u. S. Thats material suppliers, packaging manufacturers, brand owners who use that packaging, retailers and their rights material managers. The membership also includes a broad array of industry, product and material specific trade associations who are essential to the fabric. We focus on the size and a data to support the public■1 policies and advocacy and engagement based on Rigorous Research rooted in the deep commitment to achieve Sustainable Packaging polici. Packaging plays a vital role in the United States and ensuring the quality of consumer goods as they are manufactured, shift, stored and used protecting the health and safety of the products. Packaging has value and none of it belongs on roadways, waterways or landfills. We know how to recover it and be reused and no one knows better how to do that. To design, supply, produce, distribute, collect and reprocess the packaging. The driving innovation designing packaging for better Environmental Performance to boost recovery and recycling and evil the existing infrastructure. Ameripen supports the decisions that are results based, effective and efficient and equitable and fair. This is the bedrock as the states have now enacted full packaging walls and two additional states have enacted groundwork laws. We will support thoughtful packing propals that properly balance the needs of the stakeholders. We will not support poorly proposals that are not reality and will not result in positive environmental changes or greater packaging recovering. We were deeply involved in the legislative process for each of the states that have now enacted the packaging walls and we are deeply engaged in the implementation. There is a lack of consistency between these laws and the additional proposals we are seeing come forth in the u. S. Causing concern for many including brand owners that will be the primary responsible party for funding the■ams. A deeper discussion is merited and may be achieved if it continues to expand and whether soth level. To that end we would be thrilled to work with policymakers and other stakeholders to explore the potential media design for any federal framework or program. While ameripen isnt suggesting there is an immediate need for a federal program or framework any consideration must balance multiple Public Organization approach would likely be needed to manage the organizational structure for moves forward to develop a National Program plan, pool resources and provide program funding. A federal Government Entities such as Environmental Protection agencies would likely need to have oversight and the organizational mechanisms to coordinate with states in the existing management of solid waste and recycling. Facing the states to receive federal support might also be appropriate to allow the continued planning and management of solid waste and recycling at the stadium and local levels. Such a process for terms, data, measurement and reporting and for the use of producer funds which the instate stakeholders must adhere to receive that funding. The framework that retains stadium the local planning are also providing greater funding and efficiency through National Standards and could provide a workable approach to integrating the aspects country without creating a National Takeover and the local recovering and recycling program. I hope these■ thoughts from ameripen over perspective on any National Packaging framework or program that might be considered. I very much a appreciate the opportunity to appear today and i would welcome any questions you may have. Thank you. Again we welcome each of you. Than your work and sharing your thoughts and colleagues. We will provide about five minutes of questioning i would sa with resct to a fee setting. Its an important produce ] policy. It may have a higher fee than the recyclable. Question would you expand can work as a tool and extended producer responsibility of the policies to support both the downstream and upstream changes. When we talk■y about this fee setting, the term that is being used often today is called eco modulation. I dont know if it is a real word. What it essentially is about is a modulation around criteria for the packaging. If we want to improve the recycling system, we need to start by making sure we are standardizing the design of the materials to match the technology or infrastructure. By doing that we get better efficiency on the quality material. They will have a higher value to have longerterm contracts and so to incentivize the design for that you can create a fee modulation system where you incentivize producers to design for the system or design above that the content. They are no longer if they degrade the quality feedstock they are paying to degrade it. Additionally, it can create the need for transparency in the system which can help avoid some of the concerns around the toxic chemicals into recycling and there is better transparency. There is the material recycling facility that would have the ability to opt out of those materials and it will give us the opportunity to have better visibility upon reducing those problematic chemicals in the future. As of the modulation is the way to sort of take a tool that could be just for financing recycling and use it for a bit more than that. Thank you. Doctor johnson, would you please share with us any views that you have regarding the same topic . I would say that i would simply support as a key tenet of epr, this kind of modulation and what we have seen in some of schemes is they create a Pollution Prevention hierarchy, so the worst being plastic going into landfill, energy down cycling to recycling to reuse, refill and the fees are based on the endoflife product to the hierarchy. The system for Companies Like ourselves who make the products moret and just have Continuous Improvement in the system. A number of schemes dont have that, but we would certainly promote having that kind of system in epr. Senator ouppercaseletter. Thank you all for being here. There is a fundamental chicken and egg issue preventing us from moving on. Insufficient collection infrastructure hampers the recycling effort and the lowdeme materials discourages investment. Thats why i think extended producer responsibility could be used as a potential solution which isoo is it feasible to comply with the mandate without the integration of some chemical recycling . Where does the recycling fit into this because obviously it is a major part of the materials produced. Its a great question. While ameripen doesnt have the position on the chemical recycling, we will say it is a tool in the toolbox and we wouldnt want any program at this level to move forward that would take a tool that is to increase packaging recycling and recovery that would include emerging technologies for the mechanical and as while we welle believe that would include the new technologies to support advanced orhemical recycling. I support the fact that its an impornt tool especially for the hard to recycle plastics. And you would hope over time as epr works, you get out of those hard to recycle plastics and put more into the recycling loop and may be there is less of a need for that kind of tool. But it is certainly important in my opinion in an interim period. Do you have an opinion you mentioned here . Overall i think we are cautious about chemical recycling today as it has not quite proven. However, i dont think we need to define how. I think we define outcomes in the process. We dont want to close off innovation but we say that any technology that is used to process and provide a secondary market has to be certain environmental and economic bars. If we set a system up to be about outcomes and in proving the benefits of the system, then we dont have to put up barriers around what it would mean. One of the frustrations i think the chairman and i have and i can speak for him briefly is we cant even get our small recycling bills through congress. So how in the world are we going to be able to do something on a federal level and a scale in which we are talking about which would be beneficial fundamentally to everybody in the country and all the states would be able to comply. The two downsides i mentioned wf cost of product. With an inability to access cycling the future. A lot of things are moving forward that congress can help with and the acts we heard of today and the recycling and accountability act understanding they are currently facing challenges as well. Another thing that could be helpful and i dont think it is impossible to do is get some uniformity if you will around the definitions. I would agree with of the discussion about the end goal and endgame but if we are operating from a different generational standard that is something to think about and one thing i would highlight that i do see an opportunity for the federal government to support is that emergence of the Market Development so we want markets for these materials, producers one got to get to the Recycled Content either selfimposed or mandate states put forth. I think you said four states already in full in place. Morgan, colorado, california. And what really others you mentioned . Illinois and the groundwork law what we need. Argues in conflict with one another or similar . I would say generally speaking none of these are quiet like each other. So mr. Johnsons product, are they going to be impacted . There is some conflict between the state laws. The laws that mandate and the products flow pretty freely the orders so it would be impossible for us to comply with of labeling conflict. That is just one example. That is a good example of why it would be where we need to go here. Its something that sounds Pretty Simple and can complicate things. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our colleagues here are very much involved in the National Governors association and there theres an entity within the association that enables ideas whats working and whats not working and they have a word for the committee that does that. I would remind us its not just the private sector issue. The states have a dog in this fight and we welcome that. Senator ouppercaseletter the governor of West Virginia when i was born and rumor has it that she has a son that might end up being governor of West Virginia in the future. So we want to keep an eye of what needs to be■2■ done. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I have some concerns that relate to something that frankly none of the witnesses addressed directly the financial burden is come placed on that regulation. The adoption could increase grocery bills 36 to 57 per month for a family of four. This is a time of when inflation is already impacting families across the nation, grocery prices are up 21 and of course who does this harm the most . Its our lowest income that are the least able to handle these price increases. We see this and a lot of areas with low income households they consume almost 20 of the prepackaged goods more than other households. We have all sorts of examples where the regulation comes in place an the cost for consumers and of course that impacts the consumers all across the board. So for example, whenifornia passed and when you look right now, california proposition 12 as well, costs 85 cents more than california van■t in the midwest and if you look at for example the epa proposed tailpipe regulations that required a two thirds of all electric vehicles to be sold by 2032 to be electric vehicles they generally cost 65,000 or more than a regular engine and the low income household spends 12,000 on our vehicle. So huge impact for low income families when you have regulations coming in place. So the overregulation can have a big impact when you talk about the basic necessities. We have innovation that could also help with this its the development of plastics the previous farmville expanded the products to include renewable chemicals and they are produced from renewable biomass allowing the materials to be mixed with conventional materials and industrial processes of supply chains. Thats why we use internationally and the usda has been slow to adopt these improvements. Can you talk about the importance of innovation and provide some examples in an ofimportant innovation was happening. Thank you for that question d there is a lot of innovation happening. Bio plastics is one example. Theres others happening that we are able to incorporated with ir both parts of your comment. One is the innovations happening. Its important to remember the packaging is designed for a particular reason and purpose and i would even suggest in some instances that would be mor coms and people may go to the store and maybe once a week, once every ten days. Whether it be bio plastics or other materials and packaging being produced, really its meaningful when we have this more holistic discussion about the responsibility which then goes to the cost issue. You reference the study theres a study on both sides of the aisle for increased cost to consumers. I would suggest consumers may have some of the cost impact and they may be able to internalize some of that cost as well even if it gets to what they are trying to do as a company. Im sure mr. Johnson can speak further to that. But its definitely a consideration. My members are very concerned about the potential cost increase, but i think if we can find paths forward whether it be environmental or more products if they can internalize some of that cost impact will be less quite frankly. Can you talk a little bit about what innovation into the Packaging Industry . Just to comment on the cost piece, i share your concern and impact especially on the people that cant afford these kind of cost increases. I wouake a couple of points. One is if we let this emerging round of state regulations happen thats going to drive the costs better than if we had the regulation. The second thing i would say and this is one of the things im promoting the more we get the regulation and more time given to meet the goals, the board of the innovation can happen and you get the economies of scale and you can mitigate the cost andvenience to the people that buy our products and i advocate for time to meet these hurdles but there are a lot of innovations happening on the recycle ability of products and Recycled Content. I think that those refill the kind of innovations and i think those are the three big things that will be promoted in the epr regulation. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you for always showing up. I continue to work with you. I used to be a naval flight officer stationed in easta and the squadron was housed at the air station. I would raise likely to found a warehouse from the department and we go there pretty regularly. I learned a long time ago in the state. Thank you for convening this hearing as we explore the roleer responsibility. I think it is helpful to remind ourselves that its just one aspect of the circular economy for plastic. The policies should work in tandem with other areas like recycling infrastructure investments. They can help inform the future decisions and policymakings and any strategies for Public Private partnerships and investments to achieve the goals and as the chairman said im proud california who believed paved the way towards a economy for the benefit of both consumers and the environment. Thanks to the leadership over the years weve collected over 491 billion bottles and cans including the ones you are recycled. A 2. 6 billion pounds because of electronics and it disproportionately impactful environmental damage if not disposed of properly. 2. 2 billion gallons of used oil and 9. 6 million mattresses for recycling. We are going to take recycling where we can find it. Its one of the first states with extended producer responsibilities with the sp 54 and 2022. This requires producers to produce a single use Plastic Packaging by 25 and make 100 of the packaging recyclable or compostable 2032 and the reports estimate that the targets would result in 23 million tons less of Single Use Plastics over the next ten years. Lets try to envision what 23 million tons is. The golden gate bridge, 23 golden gate bridges is what we are talking about or 150,000 blue whales. Doctor johnson, how can Congress Must advance the responsibility policies while also partaking in the abilities to■u act . I do think there is an important level for states. What we would like to see as product labeling products, characteristics because our products flow freely across the state borders so that we dont have canflicts of law and we capture good economies of scale. Those are two of the most important things that we need from a federal level but states obviously should have a lot of capabilities to design these systems to meet the states particular needs. My position for the record here, i think we in congress can learn and try to broaden that across the country while not preempting the states that can and want to be even more aggressive. Its an important relationship to have. My time remaining i want to touch on one other topic. One of the first states to pass a beverage container deposit law which established what californians know as the redemption, the crv. This fee is referred to for consumers when they recycle their bottles and cans or give to a curbside operator or nonprofit recycler. Thanks to the bottle bill, it is at 70 . Its pretty successful. What other systems should be considered and incorporated in the extended producer responsibility policies . ahp thank you for the question and for your leadership. I think its important that we learn and sustainable secondary markets for all materials because we do know that we are outpacing the ability to produce all the things we depend on and we need to figure out how to get them back so theres a lot of elements that we want to build into a system that could extend beyond single use products. You could learn to create and enact incentives for the community. Theres Design Standards across a host of categories. We are primarily talking about the solid waste and single use materials, but there is a apparel, electronics. Theres a lot of other industries that are going to learn from wha states and we she considering those as we look at what kind of mechanisms could be successful in helping us to recover those unneeded resources in one place and provide them for other industries. Thank you very much and just remind us that recycling is a third of the three rs. Reduce, reuse and then recycle. Back to you. Cant get away from that. You mentioned the golden gate bridge. There is also a Golden Gate Park. When we were not deployed overseas i got to go to the very first birthday at Golden Gate Park and the speaker that day was ralph nader and had the bestselling books. It had a way of going around and it would change directions then you find yourself going the opposite direction. The other thing wewhen we turn , Carbon Monoxide would come out of the heater. When they found out that my car was it was hard to get dates in the winter. I made it to pensacola florida and sold it for a dollar and bought myself a volkswagen which i think ended up with 200,000 miles on it but that would have started and i want to say thank you for your leadership in california and very much for your leadership here. All of us served in a number of committees with about three or four others and other committees are meeting right now. Try to pop in at the extant that accidentthat they can but until, we will continue to ask questions. My next question doctor johnson, but several countries including canada and france is one that established the producer recently i think we had some here today, colorado, maine, california and oregon have passed their own law for Consumer Packaging and we heard both pros and cons to these laws. One concern we heard from stakeholders is about the challenges here today and the challenges of the patchwork statebystate approach to recycling policies such as different labeling requirements and the National Governors association has an entity that is in place to share good ideas with one another and find out what works to do more of that. Question called centers for best practices and as great organizations still react, we try to work with them in ways that are helpful to the state and local governments. Would you please share some of your experiences working with National Producer responsibility laws and some of the challenges faced complying with the laws and how might they address some of the challenges theres good models of the legislation out there. Its an excellent example youve youshared that in louisiana exae earlier where theyve been able to achieve higher recovery rates and a very high to recycling for the population in British Columbia. Some of the challenges that weve had evolve more around transparency fees. The one thing that i would like to see more of in the extended producer responsibility regulation is more of a push on reuse and refill. That is probably one of the best approaches to minimizing environmental impact. I would like to share an example that 12 years ago we launched a concentrate that you could put in the next bottle to fill it with water so you could reuse this model 100 times if you wanted. That is the best environmental footprint for this kind of product but it doesnt sell very well. Most Consumers Want to go through the inconvenience of putting a concentrate into the bottle. It comes back to its very hard for an individual company to make progress with of these kinds of innovations but if we have things in the regulations that could help incentivize these kind of things and bring scale, if they have 30 of the options, the Many Companies have options from their branded we had Education Programs, if we have subsidies, that propelled this kind of innovation. France put in their regulation a minimum amount of retail space devoted to both of these options. United kingdom has given subsidies for retail stations and theres stations those kind of things work and i would like to see that kind of added to a regulation we could have federally here in the United States. Some materials have more viable markets for repurchasing than others. Its recycled at almost 70 and put back into products for resale. The Plastic Products do not have the same recovery rate o value. Question i think for you and doctor johnson as well. How could extended producer responsibility policies establish new markets for every single one of the materials that we depend on today whether its paper, glass or plastic comes from a resource efforts to make sure all of the materials are getting a recycled recycledand they all end up in e so when we are talking about an extended producer responsibility scheme at the federal level, we need to be considering all of those materials at once and how we can create the Design Standards and of the modulation to enhance and improve the materials for the recycling and infrastructure and technology needed to efficiently recycle them so we have highvalue materials on the back and for all of tt. So, maybe the improvement from paper is not as high as it would be because we have a much lower starting point for other materials, but that improvement is still needed because paper, th that absorb the most of the contaminants it because they are on the lower end of the time you can recycle them, those contaminants have a bigger impact on the strength when they are being recycled. So i think theres mutual benefits that can happen across for the market. I would say a key tenet of the extended producer responsibility regulation and key responsibility of the Producer Organization is to help create those endoflife markets. If you look at the British Columbia example, today, over 99 of what they collect goes into man and market and thats been improved time. Again i think the eco modulation is important as well to create a plastic pollution hierarchy and incentive system to move products from landfill or waste and energy up to higher value and more circular markets. To me, that is a helpful and important principle and extended producer regulation. Let me follow up how important are the viable markets for Companies Like trying to use more Recycled Content in the packaging materials . Can you repeat that . How important it is extremely important and what regulation does this creates scale and supply of postconsumer recycled plastic which is important to us with our own internal goals. Its important for us to see that even today some of the hard to recycle things get into even downs like old markets, so to me it is a critical part of regulation. I think that is my question. I want to mention a couple of things if i can. Senator ouppercaseletters bill has been provided for the leadership and made significant pieces of legislation dealing with recycling. We talked about it many times in the room. Weve actually made it past unanimously with support in the senate and an effort to try to find legislation with whats in stumbled over something that we call a hold, and a member of the senate were holding some cases on legislation that he or she has concerns about. One of our you saw has lifted his hold on the two recycling bills the committee moved earlier here even today a lot of leadership and the great staff work on that and we appreciate very much the decision, the staff is going to be working with the floor. I dont know how you work with the floor of the senate but the folks for the republican and democratic leadership to see if we can work on these as soon as possible. If we work with the house to get them to president bidens task. We dont always have good news, but thats good news and we will have been grateful for what he has done. Before we wrap it u like to do,s looking for how we build consensus here because polital between the house and senate and with states and governors and other levels of government. Im going to ask in closing if u would maybe close in terms of taking us closer to consensus on relating to what weve been talking about today. It could be Something Else related to what we are talking abou■ t today. But we might ask a question that triggered a response. Do you have the chance to give an Opening Statement with some wisdom and i would ask if you would lead us off. Thank you, senator. Three one is consensus is critical and we need people at the table and im not suggesting people in the room today are not at the table but one thing that ameripen has discovered over the last four years is we will only solve these if all of the stakeholders sit down together and that is■sc onsensus is, so encourage those that are not engaged in this issue to follow hearings like this and understand the complexity of it and move forward. Two other things i do want to mention that while we have i think 40 countries around the world that have the epr waste, many of the programs are set up 20 and 30 years ago for different packaging. O evil, so as we pointed towards other countries and what they are doing i think we need to be mindful of that and we need a unique United States solution for the way things are set up. My next comment is data. We need that desperately and it is a role for the federal government to help with that as we look to find a consensus and industry interest and environmental interest and estate and trust we lack the data that is desperately needed and we need to work more on that. Consensus is important for far far be itfor me to suggest whatt build that. Given the emerging state regulations would help prevent overregulation and i think tt should be important for everybody. I would also say that this is an important and emerging issue i know you talked about micro plastics last week that i think is becoming very important human health issue that needs to be solved and i think if there is anything with the urgency around it, its of that. But i appreciate the to share my views. Thank you for the opportunity once again. When you talk about consensus it makes me think about the process happening in parallel around the treaty. Where it is the goal for all of those Member States to come together and find a common path forward against a shared threat and that is hard to do in a decisive world as it can be to find in the u. S. , but an interesting thing has emerged in the negotiations the end of the momentum in the u. S. That where we have Common Ground, more players than ever b an extended responsibility. We may have Different Reasons but ultimately we need a better more harmonizedtads and a better collection and processing and better secondary materials. That is fairly common and why you see more excitement and activity from the private sector. They want that more than anything. I want to add oneidnt get a chance to comment on what . The cost to the consumer. The cost is already in the form of Plastic Waste today and the municipalities that are currently dealing with that so we need to make sure we consider where they are falling as we do the full balance sheet. Mayors in the midwest part of the Mississippi River Town Initiative talk about cost as one of the challenges they face and how its coming down to the local taxpayers. Both will be on the hill hill tomorrow to talk about their support and theyve done some studies that have shown that there are benefits to it. Coming back in the form of 600 to 300 a year by not having to pay. I think there is an opportunity to find that Common Ground and where there could be those benefits to the distances and benefits and a benefits those that really needed, so thank you again for the opportunity. We thank you all and i hope that your work provides you as much satisfaction as our work provides for us. People who followed the news and those in washington, the we cant stand working with one another and that couldnt be further from the truth with respect to the issues before this committee. We have a lot of Mutual Respect and great track record and things like the reduction act that we were involved in and helped write and to the bipartisan infrastructure bill that has huge climate provisions, some of which we talked a little bit about here today. Great leader, a statue statue f him a couple miles from where we are gathered here today, former president abraham lincoln. One of my favorite lincoln quotes is with response to the question what is the role of government. What is the government. Lincoln used to say it is to do for the people what they cannot do for themselves. With the Market Forces were that works. The only planus is no plan b. You gotta take care of this plan if we care about her grandchildren and greatgrandchildren for lucky enough to have those who want to make sure they have a wonderful own families. But we appreciate it can be a complex topic. But we can find you. I want to send touch with commi. We reach some of the best thoughtful policies and the advance these and other goals. I want to say a special thanks to senator for her staff, majority staff of our colleagues who participate in helping to select you to be our witnesses and provide some of the questions that have been asked here today. I get to do a little housekeeping to close out our hearing. My favorite part of the hearing. Ient to ask unanimous consent to submit for the record a variety of materials that include letters from stakeholders and other that relate to todays hearing. When asked unanimous consensus on the center to object i can pretty much run the show. [laughter] without objection senators are going to be allowed to submithe close of the business on wednesday that is march 20 we will compile those questions. We will send them to ourwitnesso respond if you could bite wednesday april 3. In a place where sometimes we do not have great news every day the news about lifting the hold on the recycling bill is a wonderful piece of news. I think folks across the country are probably encouraged by your testimony and what you have presented to us. The questions that are members asked. While youve been testifying here for the last almost hour and a half, we have just had a really Impressive Group of young people coming into the hearing on seats for folks who might be watching this on cspan or television the number of people can sit in the hearing room we have seats for maybe 50, 60, 70 people. Weve had probably 100 or more young people loodbk like maybe high school, maybe college they could have gone to any hearing they could have gone to any houn for the senate over in the capitol but they came here by t. And they came here because they know this is important. This is important for them in their lives and the families they will raise some day. We do not want to let them down. We do not want to let them down i would like to send this committee were not letting them down with your help we will continue to do that. With that this hearing is a raft thank you very much. Adjourned. [inaudible conversations] cspan as your unfilted view of governments. We are funded by these Television Companies and more including charter communications. Charter is proud to be recognized on the best internet providers. We are just getting started. Building a 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. Charter Communications Support cspan as a Public Service along with these other television providers. Giving you a front row seat to democracy. Get Contact Information for members of government right in the palm of your hand when you preorder your copy of congressi. Bio and Contact Information for every house and Senate Member of the 118th congress Important Information on congressional committees, the president s cabinet federal agencies and state governors. 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