And well see. But right now were kind of a lile feels very groundhog day, as in the worst possible way. And i have t page because were out of time. Thanks, both of you fowhat was really terrific discussion and yeah. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, and good morning. Thankouo the Rancho Mirage writers festival for having us here for you all the audience for being here. Kassidy had the chance to be on from ari melber and our idean here and idea was to really do a little bit more of the side and the personal journey of you and who you are and this extraordinary extraordinary■q ad what was pretty brutal coming of age story in dc, the cautionary tale but ultimately inspirational one, i think, and i know this has been inspiring for me as iweame to know througr teimee to investigate the january six attack on the united capitol. But it wasnt until about a year after that testify that you were able to to begin writing story and to telling your your full story publicly. And sod like to start from the beginning. Youre a jersey gir jstrong. Tell tell me. Audience about jersey with a mom and dad who split wh younger brother. You were born in your home. So w y brother. One of the both of us were your both home. mbut and your brother was born. 911. What was it like growing up in new jersey . Ll us about your parents, your background, how youre growing up. Was. So thank you for the warm introduction and thank you all for being here this morning. Anto rano mirage graciously hosting myself and for both of im really grateful to be here to speak with all about the book in this moment and how we can all come together moving forward. So like just said, i did grow up inersey. My parents split when i was in fifth grade, came very humble beginnings, though my father, my tned a landscaping and my mom helped him run company. We didnt have a ton of money, but they worked hard and that was something that i am grateful that i witnessed from a young age and throughout my childhood knowwa easier. The best. Yeah, we went through tough times, but you know i think about my upbringing in relation my experience working in the white house andfelt as i was ans biological father was very, very kind of a doomsday planner in some, which is there are a lot of people like that. But i grew up this perceptione l and drive to go into public myself so it wasnt in the 2012 president ialwhen it wat romney when i first started watching the debates and it was almost like something and it just clicked for me and i had this vague idea of Public Service growing and then i watched the debates and i didnt know exactly how i couldolitics. But the Republican Party message made sense to me. I felt that it aligned with my ideals largely and how i perceive the world growing up through the lens in which the i was experiencing the world at the time and that really motivated me to go forward through with college and then eventually to washington. Well and you have an amazing story because of how you got to e. But i want to just put a pin in a story you tell in your that was formative for you. I mean, you talk how it was clearly before then a you had a member of your family was sort of in your greater familyand afghanis. You you describe a scene where returning from combat seeing soldiers returning home and ing wi their families and your First American flag pin, can you tell that . Yeah. Thank you bring that up. Joe was the first figure that i really had in life that was a Public Servant. He lived in indiana,ting him ans this extremelyle person to me fa very young age and very nurturing in a way wasnt. So its really difficult for me when he went and fought in the war, but i also knew because he had■k■ talked me about this, how important it was for the country, that he was willing to lay wn his life and sacrifice for the country in that way. So when he came home i mean, i remember waiting weeks for this and my mom brother and i drove out to indiana and were in this airplane hangar and its sond were just waiting waiting, waiting all day andlowly airplap and you e rs march and i have goosebumps thinking about this because its just this really moment in my life ulad in my histy and memories, but also what has been ingrained inurinceur founding. And thats immense national pride, especially for the peope who are willing to lay down their lives, for our country and foour constituents. And right now, you know, i in my view how ive experienced a lot of this we we need to return some of those ideals. I think that being a citizen of this country is the highest honor that we all can have. But its incumbent, all of us, to continue to work to make america great. On our military and our soldiers. We all have to be■l participantn our democracy. You, you, youve got to college against. I think a lot of strong forces or you to make other choices■k t your your your determined gracious and and extraordinarily me series internships on capitol hill on. The house side on e senate side eventually to the white house and became an enormously valuable member of the white house, ultimately, because you understood the congress■f■■;st i mean, your and your dedication to sort of being committed to a se of developing yourself a competitive politicalpretty ani didntu until i read your book. Think its something im still trying to understand to know mya very young age my biological other. We have a very strained relationship now. Grateful for, you know, lessons that i have learned from him, but he ingrained in me from education, the ticket out and he wasnt saying we lived a bad life, but he ntlife for me. So i wanted to go to college, my mom was sort of a little bit more indifferent a is also completely but i knew that i in order to, you know, sort of get out of this patterns that i had found myself in and just sort of wanting a better life. I had wanted to pursue a career in politics applying to capitol hill it was maybe going to be a little bit more difficult. You know, i applying to republican offices and for that dont know typicalork for their their home representative republicans sitting at the time so i blast my resume every single House Republican office and i givte except intern n 2017. So all this coalesced with offig president and the first 100 days of his of his administration. He were with Steve Scalise nhoffice. He was shot on the baseball field. He you went through■e, as the whip, the number three in seniority in the hou o had member and you develop personal relationships wds of members of congress that served you when you got to the white house. Right. And i that that you know, i used to say i was in the right place at the right time. Time, wrong place. Right time anymore. But it cracked here. So the whip does member services. So i w arelationships one on one relationships not only with staff but with the members themselves eventually went to the white house, got an internshipthfice of legislative affairs, which i think is one of the most important offices. It is essentially the bridge between, the executive branch and the legislivo branch without a really strong outlay. You dont have communication within the government. But i worked for the house and thats where i really started to with members of leadership such. As formerally, mark, who i endep working for when he was the of staff, we developed a strong relationship with mark ■m cultivated, you knowing not ine, maybe it will always speak to but ultimately he spotted as a highly talented, highly staffer. And the second he was asked to chief staff, he reached out to you and brought you into you chief of staff to the chief of staff of the white house. Whenars old. I just turned 23. So its an robust, responsiveresponsibility. And its had a how did did you d you ever have imposter syndrome think, oh, my god, im my office is next to the oval in the white house. You know, i, i did have moments like that. But what i think made me effective partially in role was the fact that i■■j at people as people. I was there to do a job done. So i was able to sort of put up a■5■k blinder because was very blissfully in some ways and very ignorant other ways. A lot of the morereacherous things that were happening within the administration, but tell us about what that job was like. What what did theob entail . I mean, it was sort of a little bit of everything. I was the way thated the job to me was i was his eyes and ears in the west with and the president. He wanted uto be seen together. He wanted to make that. People knew that i was a stable conduit to mark. So whether it was cabinet secretaries or their staffs members of congress, senators, he wanted me to be an access point to get to him. But i think that every chief of staff deserves to have atrong staff below them to serve them well, because ultimately theyre there to serve the president of the united states. You felt role with mark and i would be doing a disservice to myself and to mark if i didnt acknowledge because i the onres several reasons here today but the reason im largely here today is because he me the opportunity and he empowered me in ways that a lot of bosses wouldnt at a young age and whether or notha strength or a weakness respectfully im going disagree. The reason youre here today is because of bold act you took as an individual with deep reservoir of courage in a very country. T moment for our because if you hadnt, you wouldnt be here today. But id like you to this hour, i want to empower me and he did. And increasingly i know i want to spend just a bit tbecause mh the characters. Oh,st often does right. But but i want to just spend a because you write in your book, you had some initially mean you had been in the office of affairs and you thought, oh my gosh, do i really want to take this promotion to become a special assistant to the president and the chief of staff of the chief of staff of the and he increasingly became so comfortable with president ial trips. He would send you on his own. After, not very much time at all. So about seven months and seven months, his so, i mean, why did initially have hesitations working with him . And was there ever a tension that you felt and im feeding you read this in your book, you talk about feeling a tension, whether you■rg6 felt ll to mark to the president so can you talk about that . Im happy you mentioned that because when i entered Public Service, i had this concept of who i wantedas based off of the great leaders of our past. You know, from our first president to Abraham Lincoln to john mccain, to mitt romney. So i was looking and you got at the time and i admit that but i entered someone that would lay down their life for the country. And thats you know i believe that when you swear an oath to the country you you swear that oath your to upho that and its sort of sad that weve divulged so far that as a society where its seen as courageous to come forward and r thats unfortunate aspect of what were experiencing now. But 2to■ back to what your saying about working with■ mar. Did you feel a tension between loyalty to him and that that of to your job . Yes. And where i had a i was i didnt do a lot oft in that job. And when i took the job with mark, i wasthat i wanted to work as the chief of staff, and to me, there was a very important distinction. There. Was thqlere to ser■dve the offie of. The chief of staff of the white house, not the individual. And you had some hesitation. I did have yes, i did have hesitations. Of taking that job, because i you know, i covered was just sort of getting i was well positioned in the office of legislative affairs,ut ended. There was an election coming. I was a little crn security, sod putting out feelers on theill. But throughout my tenure with with mark and working the president , i did inured to the political rhetoric rhetoric that was prevalent throughout the administration and and it was unfortunate that that and i did feel this conflicting stance of loyalty. And i didnt do a lot of reflection at the time to understand within me. Wasntq, that i was necessarily disloyal to the country, but it was some working for, including the former president of the united states, mr. Trump, they werent loyal to the country■d■■2nd was in a position where i wasnt, you know, we were going,n miles. Youre not into unless youve workedn the office in the white house, its hard to understand how when youre describing 16,oure getting slep unrest after george was murdered or incycle, an election. So you have no time to sleep. You youre living bacall bull coffee and protein. And my health had so there isnt i mean i, i certainly understand that aving worked in the white house chief of staff but having worked in the white house duri■b t its you dont have time think youre just trying tojob and cor responsibilities and you refract later, which is clearly what youve done. But theres just two stories that i think are so funny from your experience in the white one of them is about your boss, mark meadows, who is a total teetotaler hes a southern baptist. He doesnt drink andome into the office one morning on a monday a10 a. M. Th are three white claus on hisk. Well, what happened, and. T they, this is what he says to the chief white house. Chief staff on the monday morning, says, girls, do these ol in them. So this after the election, mark and i, we were on the campaign trai both came down with the coronavirus so we had been out for ten days after the elections. This was our first d b elections there had been i wasnt there night because i had the corona virus, but i guess there had been a little bit of Party Festivities in theest wing and there had been some white cloth stored, his refrigerator not. What dont know is he doesnt drink flat water. He only drinks sparkling water. He cropped out the white claws, which are alcohol, which they say sparkling on the canned andi think, are 5 alcohol. I mean, he doesnt drink so so he had to take some time to sober up before the president meng morning. You know, i like to think that maybetle stress relief, but but it wasoc also i mean, you sd so much time traveling on the going ahead of the president s to ensure that theed to that the crowd size wproper e work had been done the presis specifications. And theres a moment you describe because you have choice words about mark meadows now. And i know theyre complicated because you also felt very loyal and devoted him and you describe one episode in the bthink showsm in a more nuanced i think youre in North Carolina at a major rally and you spot a little girl being held up by hertrying to n because mark is on■ trallies. And mark is just not seeing h. So what happened is were in his home state and i grabbed mark and i pointed at the little girl and i told that he needed to go over and■ he was was going to ruin her day or her life. He didnt go over the they after her. So he sent me back to the stockton to get a bunch of little gifts, including an d by the time i had returned got to have goose bumps right now by the time i had returned were in the overflow section■÷ f the rally crowd. So they were only at the rally ons. Mark had pulled the little girl over security fencing and was crouching talking to her. So i slipped him all the gifts and she was so happy and i was telling me that he had worked nightft daughter to go to this rally. So about and this was a rally that weather and he had you know, he worked the nit shift he had taken her and he was almost null that mark had taken thtis daughter. You know what . He had broug his dauree that das he thought was democracy in action. Our Constitutional Republic working in our election system ing. And its really powerful. Also a sober moment forack on be hand, its a really and re moment for mark, you know, these are not everything was bad and i thats really important to remember especially as we enter this election year. Were all people at the end of the day and he is and was he was and maybe is a Public Servant and wanted to pass on that sensof her. And it meant a lot to me in that moment. But i now and i think about what ive goneroughf reflection for me and my trump, but also with my upbringing and the falling out, which im sure wellbut think ai just think about the that lies trump. Its the people that for him or do send dollar donations for him to and essentially there paying legal bills i think about of the staff and lawye exploiter his own personal and it makes really sad that he has been so effective at deceivi■ such a massive portion of the American Population because americans deserve better. Our futures deserve better. Our future generations of women little girls deserve better. We need stable leadership to ensure. Know weve talked about■< this youve mentioned that its as it rightu testified you had sort■ of realy help you through d of testimonn moving on and well get tosomebu about how. Yeah, youre being youre being deprogram because you know in reis notion of of a cult which struck you deeply, uncomfortably. But how you come to think about all those who believe in that that this notion that donald trump is fighting for them. Yeah. Youw its like the cult reference really difficult for me. Its i dont want to be erroneous with a blanket maga as a cult but it it was a very Cult Movement and im not a cult expert, but i have done some Research Since an there a lot of parallels, especially with my experience of leaving and thenom to with what i actually was a part and i think its really really critical to remember or at least to keep in mind talk to people, you know, i think that sometimes as a society i experienced this where i was very very fearful of making that break with the trump world, but i had wanted and i felt compelled to becausi ha coy and a moral obligation to do so. But i■ was really afraid i was afraid of being completely ostracized by my tribe the Republican Party, which i had a part of. And professional circles were formed. And i was also really ousted by the left because i had made poor choices, had been part of something that, was dangerous and wrong, and i felt isolated and, you know, i think when we talk to people, we need to come from a perspective that when experience that yourself. O but i was viewing the world through this very lens and when i felt at the time when people started talking to me about, you know, maybe you should king abot deprogramming or at least thinking in that way, or doing that made me almost take my heels in harder because you read your defense a lot, wants to be told theyre in a cult or nobody that that is a part of something dangerous wantto something dangerous. I think that we need to approach perspective and also to make sure that people are being heard, listened to and to as you know, i to hear your point of view. But this is mine. You know, this is this would be a slow progress. But in order to get out from this moment, we have to get through this moment. And i think that we have to, as a practice, a little bit more empathy, understanding for the people that have been sece intm and movement irrationally false, falsely, because he has built mf of fear and propaganda lies. And thats how authoritarians rise to power. And that is what were on the brink of right now. And im you know im not here to fearmonger but that is the reality. And as i think that we are extremely fortunate we havent had a scenario like we have seen countries where theyve had a democracy and then its been taken away lfrom them. But they happen really fast and it almost did and o such thatt happening happening again you beautifully. We know how you felt about january six with limited time. If you if you want to hear the tick, read the tick tock or the line by linepl by book and read it. It is such a compelling compelling testimony to yojourn. You go through january six, to a after the january Six Committee is formed and you find yourself in golden handcuffs because. There is no way that you, having worked the federal government have any resources to pay legal lls bu enter or enter your hero. The campaign or someone associate hated with trump world volunteers to pay for your legal fees and participate heartedly and not holistically unti you you that you actually do want to be wholly forthcoming and you w ch. You tell a story about your friender of congress we shall protect his identities and he is a current member who encouragesd look at how you look. But look at whether you can live yourself. And and somehow that precipitated you going full force in the other direction. Yes, that night the Jury Committee had filed that i submitted a lawsuit or something against meadows mark meadows, where several pages of my testimony first you sat in with im reading through the transcript and it was just this al powerful, also extremely frightening moment for becau b i wanted to become when i entered public moment it hit me like a was from that person. And again i felt this really moral obligation in ccert responsibility to uphold my oath of office, but also to do the right thing and to come frd and tell the whole truth and to tell everything that i that i knew. So i called sam. And who is a current republic january Six Committee . And he told me to go look in the just said, yes, if i could live with myself for the rest of my life. And it sort of at the time seemed like this really and sort of idiotic thoht experiment. And i also was crying. I dont like to look at myself when im crying as i just was very emotional in this moment. But it was just this remarkable force circle moment for me that i look back on now. There are a t oments tchange thy life, but that reallyas one ere i, for the first time felt empowered by someone, that it wasn okay to go forward and do the right thing. And this was something that i had worked with in the past and i had known from my time in the administration who was still serving in congress and who is and was a responsible member of congressghout. This the ten years that i worked with him and continues to be so. But its also important to remember that thats not ve the entire congress. And i think that we need to to elect more people like that of moral■ integrity and its not that i have i feel, to protect his identity because i dont civil unrest or public or Political Violence unleashed on him and his family. And thats the era that we and thats what donald trump has normalized. So psa there are republicans in congress currently serving are afraid for their own safetdtandd trump but are important your view to be therehen the rubber hits the road . Do you think sam will vote for a certificate even when it comes around next time or not . I mean, this is to me, i think there are several republicans who for certification, but a lot of them have left. And thats i mean, when rubber hits the road next is if its trump v biden and theres an electoral watch republicans are going to join with democrats to certify. And i think thats a real point. Speaking about the 2024 election in my view right now, one of the, you know, donald trus an existential crisis for our Constitutional Republic and to our democracy and tostability ae world stage. It is absolutelyssentialas nevee oval office again. List for me is making sure that we elect responsible, trustworthy people to congress and right now the Republican Party as have perceived it, is not in re going to elect responsible and there is a very good chance that this next election could be contested again. You know, i think that we approach selection its equally important to talks and now i have not voted for democrats in my life. I consider myself very republican. I have more but i dont necessarily think that my personal conservative principles are what should be the lay of the land. nbut i would vote for democrats across the board, in this next election if that meanthanald trn congress dont hoot and shred or constitution like they almost in 2020. Y favorite of the book that i didnt know about to this point in, your journey where you decide youre goi tve forward with legal counsel, with and youre going to testify youre going to go back and spill the beans. Youre going to telland part ofs discovery, she is a man. Hands in the room for people who recognize thealexander butterfi. Alexander, you discover okay to remind people. Alexander butterfield is the deputy chief of staff to the white house. Chief of staff is the haldeman, and he is the into the watergate discloses that there are tapes how you dir haldeman and how did you feel . Connection with him. So this was after my conversation with sam and a couple of days after and i had back channeling to the january Six Committee to go in for a third deposition because at the time was thinking, you know, if i can still through this, i maybe i could just get through it unscathed and knowy unscathed. But as im and, im thinking there had to be somebody in the Nixon White House that had a similar role or position to what i had a role that required an incredible amount of trustolo d an incredible amount of the ability to keep thingsand thatn that position. But ulma■0telyyou know, did right thing. I just i needed a connection with that had gone through something and i you know, i had heard of john dean but i was like i was not thi anything wout to that. And i a john dean is incredible an honorable but you know were 1n dean. So i on the alexander butterfis name. So i c oso automatically im lie perfect. After he went forward, he did the right thing already. Green flags, starting to read about what he actually did and forward and testified to and i extremely moved not only his story but by his commitment to his country and by his commitment toqc and it he didnt want come forward to theget go that if he was called, he tell the whole , because he had served in the military. He had taken the oath once when he swore into the military, he had oath another time when he swore to work in the white house. And then he worked at the faa w. And i saw alex, a vision of the publics that i had wanted to become and the person that i felt that i could not grasp. I felt that i cod so kinof claw my way back. So he gave me that second wind of optimism, strength to go forward andtiworking with the january Six Committee. And at this time to you know, itth april of 2022. So were not in this where are now where we have a wall of Public Resources and knowledge about what actually went well what actually happened thatriny and then eventually getting to meet american, i look back on what alex years to the day when i ■d conversation about this,here you know, he never would have envisioned that 50 years■ later, we would have been on the brink of. Another corrupt people to go fod and testify tthfull and i think about that. And then 50 years down the road and anything that that never happens again or that theres her future, a little girl or woman or even a man, that if they fl like on the brink of making a really difficult moral decision, that they have someone to turn to and that they can find companionship andugh booksr through hearing my journey. Because, you knoi made a lot of. I did a lot of things that bas also in my view, a journey■d of selfdiscovery and a comeback and a grace ■7,that saved my lie and being embraced by people who have inspired me to continue on this trajectory of Public Service and also show also show me that there are really, really good, caring people in this world, but we have to surround ourselves with those people. You write in you you write in your acknowledgments, i ot. The impact of Alexander Butterfield had on my life his allegiance to his oath thaore ie pursuit justice is an obligation may his legacy continue to inspire future and to find their moral compass in theadversity at that the journey wouldnt have happened without you and butterfield in hindsight said that he had no regrets hi, i do. Whereyo phone . Do you have your phone . You. Its backstage. She showed backstage her phone and the screen saver on her phone is a picture of her. Alexander butterfield, wasnt it . Was, actually. Almost, almost a year. It might have been exactly year ago. Its been might have been february 2nd last year. I tell the first time and i was flying and i remember ive never been to san diego and i remember out the plane window and seeing all the warships. And alex a talked on the phone a lot leading up to the first time we had met and he had told me to look out the window and we had up when the plane was landing. And i would see allf and he was. And it was and, you know yaalalexs me so. But he has embodies what a Public Servant is. And im im grateful■it he was around to help guide me through. And he didnt know that re force was when i needed him the most after. We dont have much time left,■ t head to more topics quickly. Liz cheneybody who has become really a spiritual guidepost you, a mentor, a person who who you deeply respect and admire. One of the things liz cheney said about you and the january Six Committee hearing in your ■scourage come forward was that the country needs see strong women and girls standing up to. Yeah. I mean liz cheney i she is not only an incredible Public Servant, but she is an incredible woman. Es an incredible role model. I looked towards liz cheney when i was, you know, going■ through this period, a year and a half after the end of the administration, as somebody who i didn agree with. And she irks me from time to time, but she was doing what i wasnd i had wanted to do myself not i wish that i had, but im really i feel so fortunate. I had her example to talk to liz cheney, adam kinzinger. But i also think about other nancy■f pelosi, who i worked wih her and her staff, my tenure in the whitei you know, i think abt her, the moral leadership that she has women and little girls. And if i can those are, alyssa h griffin, saraheman, that all testified before the january Six Committee. You know,r[ i it men have successfully let our country to tre at now but i believe that our future is female and i think that we to build generations of strong girls. And i want to reflect on something reallyout all of your your comments, but ■. T process you as you have reected back you wrote that you reflected and you have regretted the and the cruelty the crudity of some of the president s messaging. Its inappropriateness. His unpresident ial tweets, communication. Too it and you spe por tribalism in our politics and how it didnt just affect you andheite house its e country. Maybe its not a cult, but its a movement with cult like features and it is eroding our our democracy and the that have buildcan we move now were movd as a as a repeat. Weve essentially theyve repeated the same election for recles. Theres no reason that we should be in this position right now. But we are and we need to accept that. You know, a lot of by the way, thats not an easy thing to do. Many republicans not accepted that reality. Many republicans, the the the country at large only beginning toski ■o wake up to the fact tht were on track for a biden. V t which essentially the first time in history that will haveainst each other. On tthe president to do on charges and and theres that so and one facing 91 criminal charges right simple formula i dont think to move know how to exactlye are several. Do you ever think about what could heal the country, though . How c past this . I do. I think a lot about know, toucd on this earlier. I think moving forward, its,u o come, i believe, in my view, after the 2024 president ial election. I think that we need to put all of our time and resources right now making sure, you know, the elections going to down and thatd karl rove could speak much the statistics of all this than i could, but essentially elec swing in about 100,000 votes and the greatest likelihood we need to make sure that were devoting resources to thosem districts, to the amerin population as a whole, to make sure that theyre not gng propa. You know, thats the first big step that we need to■ take, ned to deconstruct the system donald trump has on, fortunately successfully implemented, which is building thisov basic and thr needs of s hes that fear and ba movement of li falsehood. So we need to make sure that were properly educating thames actually at stake. But i think what essential in some of this comes now, but some of it will come down the road i a is explaining to americans how fragile is and how quickly it can taken away from happened in other countries and how we are so fortunate as americans to not have had to experience happen really fast and societies can completely d again, were on the brink of. Reallytentially happening in dangerous and critical moment e nation, but also for the peace and been the gatekeepers of secur trld for 2. And what example are we setting for the world, if were goingo not stick up for our in what we have so cherished for long. You know and i, i think about all of this andwant reach a poii think could have doneore. Could i have said something . How i explains,children or my future grandchild, grandchildren or future generations of that. I stood back when it might have been easier to remain. You , i think that when we move forward and, hopefully move rw little more hand in hand and to be able to have productive conversations, weve righted our wrongs and weve looked towards our better angels, as we in past Cassidy Hutchinson for your courage, for your willingness to share and speak out, and to to be one of those pillars that stands up for our democracy in those brutal, hamo you for shar. Thank you vergood morning. Thank you all for coming. Thank you for coming. Did i. m on my way there, but