Charter communications supports cspan is a Public Service along with these other Television Providers giving you a frontrow seat to democracy. Up next to look into of the Justice Department can be activated to counter robocalls, ways they can address the countries of origin for fraudulent calls and how Artificial Intelligence can be used to protect consumers. Tech Companies Offer testimony before senate commerce, science and transportation subcommittee. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible] i want to thank everyone for being here for the serving of protecting americans from robocalls and first of all i want to thank Ranking Member thune for working with me and my staff what you think his team and i especially want to thank senator fischer for being here with us, as she always is. But especially to serve in an Important Role today as well. Some want to thank you, senator fischer for joining us to preside today. Thank you so very much. And today we will hear from expert witnesses are protecting our constituents from the growing number of fraudulent and Illegal Robocalls and robotexts. Every month americans receive roughly 1. 5 billion3 billion scam calls and likely illegal telemarketing calls. This is an issue im confident everyone in the room that has dealt with, for those of you that have earphones on, im sure youre going to receive robocalls and robotexts that are predatory con even during this hearing. I would not be surprised if we did as well. Robocalls, the internet sleep if your not putting earphones in some privacy mode sleep mode or turn them off themselves. They interrupt time with friends and family. And as i sit even during hearings. So i wont be surprised if they came up. So if they do y feel free to hod your phone up and share with the rester of america whats happeng while in this room. Robocalls has eroded trust in our Nations Communications networks. I know many in my family including myself that you look at the phone now and youre not sure where its coming from and some of the phone provided a putting scam alerts or maybe its some other call, and folks a look at the device and it will drop it down as well. Many have become subject to those phishing attacks from those robotexts as well, which are causing the American People billions of dollars. In 1991 Congress Passed the telephone Consumer Protection act, the jcpa, and more recently a telephone robocall abuse criminal enforcement and deterrence act which acronym is traced. That was back in 2019. These two laws lawsuit to t americans from unsolicited robocalls syntax. In some ways that tcpa tcpy traced as are implemented, the number of unsolicited and illegal telemarketing calls has decreased. Do not call completes fcc has reduce as well. Not entirely but by some numbers and the federal Communications Commission has issued 500 million and Enforcement Actions against Illegal Robocalls over the last 12 months. The fcc has empowered the Industry Traceback Group and phone companies to block by default illegal or unwanted calls based onlt reasonable evidence. The fellow Communications Commission provided a statement foran todays hearing, and witht objection i would like to enter into the record. We will internet. However, it is important that we recognize the robocalls and robotexts are not just a nuisance. Scammers use our Telecom Networks to defraud americans out of an estimated 39 billion. Now that was just in 2022 a loan. Thats roughly enough money to provide affordable broadband to the current 21 maine households enrolled in a Affordable Connectivity Program for eight years. I hope weig understand the magnitude of what that 39 billion yeartoyear means. Scammers and flybynight companies are stealing American Families hardearned dollars using our Telecom Networks to do so and they dont face any consequences. The fcc levies fines but fines go t uncollected. The company dissolves and those assets elsewhere. Congress must about our regulators and enforcement agencies to ensure that when an individual or company breaks the law, they are held to account. Part of the reason he scammers are so effective at tricking consumers and evading enforcement is that the technology is constantly evolving. We will hear testimony that suggests consumer consent for telemarketing is increasingly falsified. Automated bots and other Artificial Intelligence systems are using public data to consent on behalf of other consumer for calls they never asked for. And do not want. Automated robocalls and robotexts are using chatbots and generative Artificial Intelligence to impersonate a realal live person, lulling the recipient into a false sense of security by mimicking voices and mannerisms. In the most frightening example bad actors are playing on our emotions and impersonating loved ones in distress. Earlier this year in the Senate Human Rights subcommittee, senator ossoff and Ranking Member blackburn heard testimony from jennifer of arizona who was a victim of a scam call impersonating her daughter. And without objection i would like to enter her testimony into the record for todays hearing. Hearing none, its entered. Now, she testified quote ai is revolutionizing and unravel on that by creating doubt and fear in what was once never questioned. The sound of a loved ones voice. This thing will examine how robocalls are evading enforcement, consider publicprivate efforts to combat Illegal Robocalls can unravel how new and evolving Technology Changes the landscape and investigate what next steps are neededed to protect americans fm fraudulent and illegal Text Messages and calls. Im very excited that we have the panel that we have with us today. I will introduce each ofod you momentarily, but first i want to recognize a friend and a leader that is with us today and want to turn this over to Ranking Member fischer for her opening comment. Good morning, and thank you, chairman lujan for holding this hearing. The persistent issue of Illegal Robocalls has been a longstanding concern of mine. Nationwide, illegal and spoofed robocalls continue to be the number one consumer complaint. I want to ensure that we have the right tools in place to protect consumers from these calls that prey on them. As we all know, our phones gie his connection to the world around us, whether its calling family, venture colleagues, scheduling appointments or summoning emergency services. They are integrated into our daily lives. Our phone numbers are very personal part of our identities as well. We use them to verify who we are, and we hold onto them for decades, sometimes for a lifetime. But as we know too well this allows scammers to reach directly into our homes and into our pockets. Bad actors are increasingly savvy in the technologies they use to defraud consumers. This can result in devastating financial losses. Criminals are engaging in more targeted calls and diversity businesses like banks to steal personal data or commit financial fraud. Phone scans are still yielding the highest reported fraud losses per person, despite the rapid growth of scammers on social media platforms. In fact, fraud losses due to phone scans are higher than ever. According to a recent report, over 68 million americans lost approximately 40 billion to phone scans in 2021 alone. In manywe ways it feels like wee had this conversation so many times over so many years. But crucially, in 2019 Congress Passed the traced back to put wideranging solutions in motion that would reduce Illegal Robocalls. I can in my colleague senator thune for leading this legislation and i was glad to be a cosponsor of it. Previously i also led the spoofing prevention act with snort bill nelson which passed into law8. In 2018. This law was a foundational effort to increase penalties and boost enforcement tools that fight illegal spoofing. Deterrence through fines for Illegal Robocalls activities is a key part of cracking down on nuisance calls that endanger consumers. On this front federal agencies, particularly the Justice Department, must improve how they Work Together to ensure that unpaid fines are collected. There are no Silver Bullet to eradicate the scourge of illegal scam calls and texts. Lawmakers have to remain diligent and monitor how Illegal Robocalls schemes are evolving. We must be able to empower consumers with the knowledge of who is actually calling them, and the ability to block illegal callers. We all share the goal of being able to pick up our phones safely, trusting that we know whos going to be on the other end of the line. But we are not there just yet. The industry has madead commendable efforts to reduce the prevalence of these illegal calls, including through advancements in call authorization to authorize them, and trace back technology. New statistics from the federallyth designated traced at to consortium, itc indicate that certain common robocalls scams have started to decline over the last couple of years. Continuing this trend will take the united cooperation of all Voice Service providers. As lawmakers we need to maintain this momentum and ensure that traced act efforts are fully supported. I urge the fcc to spend its time and resources to create meaningful safe harbors for businesses acting in good faith compliance with the law. I look forward to hearing from todays witnesses about where we are in this effort and were additional assistance may be needed. Thank you for being here, and thank you, chairman lujan. Thank you, senator fischer. I wantha to thank you again for being with us today but i want to commend you for your leadership in so many ways but especially in this case when it comes to robocalls and t robotes and what you been doing to work to bring support to the American People. So thank you so very much for that. As a introduce the panel, after the introduction we will then hear from ms. Saunders ms. Saunders who is awe senior attorney from the National Consumer law center. Thank you so much for being with us today. Ms. Megan brown a member of the net States Chamber of Commerce Cybersecurity Leadership Council and partner wiley rein of leaders with us as well. Mr. Josh bercu, like the city, i appreciate that, josh. Mr. Josh bercu, executive director, Industry Traceback Group and Vice President , advocacy for u. S. Telecom. Thank you so much as well. And mr. Mike rudolph, the chief Technology Officer from youmail. Thank you so much of beingff wih us today. Ms. Saunders, the floor issuers yours free Opening Statement for five minutes. Senator fischer, i appreciate the opportunity to testify today on what needs to be done to protect americans from robocalls. I provide my testimony today on behalf of the low income client of the National Consumer law center, and the Consumer Federation of america. The current regulatory structure allows criminals access to americans wallets, and she cited, billions of dollars are stolen every year through scans executed over this nations telephones. At the same time the combination of scam calls, along with the onslaught of illegal and unwanted telemarketing calls, have damaged our trust in our phones and made it more difficult for legitimate wanted messages to reach us. The sec has been trying to solve the problem fcc but to date its methods have not succeeded. Emmett tills when you can see a graph of the number of robocalls and telemarketing calls and scam calls over the years and it looks like unfortunately were about today when we were in 2019. In terms of the combined number of calls. But either the fcc doesnt have sufficient legal tools to stop the calls or it is not yet determined how to employ those tools effectively. The commission has issued numerous regulations to implement the traced act, brought multiple Enforcement Actions against scam callers and their complicit Voice Service providers, yet the number of calls and the losses to americans keep, are continuing. The problem is that complicit Voice Service providers responsible for these calls are making money for transmitting them. Stark said, quote, Illegal Robocalls will continue as long as those initiating and facilitating them can get away with it and profit from it. End quote. To eliminate these calls, there must be incentives for compliance. Which there are not currently. We believe that the calls can be dramatically reduced, but the dramatically but requires a shift in emphasis to the ftc. The primary goal should be to protect the nations telephone numbers from scam calls stealing billions of dollars. To do that requires change protecting service to telephone numbers and networks toward shielding consumers from these illegal calls. If the ftc adopt the system in which they quickly suspend the ability of a Service Provider to participate in the network once its determined to be a repeat offender, we think that would be a magic bullet. This is along thef line of the temporary restraining order procedure established in the procedure. There are procedures we think would change the structure and cause reduction. Additionally current regulation private telemarketers from calling without the express written consent. Telemarketers routinely explore requirements of these regulations and make a billion telemarketing calls every month. Then they dispel by relying on agreement for completely fabricated or based on suppose a consent agreement, sold and sold again. They could eliminate this Business Model reiterating current regulations. Instead, it has proposed new regulation less protective of consumers. In a nutshell we believe it could eliminate goals by changing current emphasis. Technologyl practice. Im here on behalf of the Chambers Institute for reform. The u. S. Chamber is the Worlds LargestBusiness Federation representing interest of more than 3 million businesses of all sizes as well as state and local chambers and industry associations. Its institute for legal reform is a division of the chamber that promotes Civil Justice reform of the Global National state and localof levels. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Chamber has been involved for years and offers the perspective of the American Business community which values reliable trustworthy place to communicate with customers in the service. This isoc a highly regulated ba, something the chamber has been vocal about for yearse becauset remains a major source of class action litigation so the chamber would like the committee, American Businesses support cracking down on illegal and abusive protocols. To trust the ecosystem and enter calls and texts. American businesses work hard to comply with these complex regulations of this federal and state level. There i brought against consumers and because of those Arms Companies fight back against local scams and they did their own investigation into millions of calls placed illegally h using misusing it spread and work with the trace back group miserable because getting injunction against the marketing agency. You can ensure your hard work group encouraging the department of justice to make rogue local scams illegal spoofing priority. The federal Communications Mission has taken steps to implement all this new congressional electric she dino ftc staff have been working really hard on these issues. Enormous orders against doctors that break the law and cease and desist orders particularly impactful. The federal trade Commission Addressing scams using robo calls and text. State attorneys general partner with agencies and bring their own cases. D. O. J. Is a vital partner in congress should urge the department to make enforcement priority by acting aggressively on referrals to get and bring its own cases directly for violations of laws like the truth caller id act would mail and firefox will agree to scams. Third unfortunately, the private right of action and statutory damages continue to fuel negation against American Businesses. The institute for legal reform for years and operating environment continues to hurt businesses and consumers. Class actions seeking enormous damages and attorneys fees, professional plaintiffs and rushing blankly for mistakes creates an environment for American Businesses. The class actions do not address that actions byts letting autobg present millions of illegal calls. Here i have always calls for additional. C legislation. Congress has been active for several years since chambers against medicos forward who should limit the abuse should not stop that actress. Appreciate the attention to these issues as well as artwork to go after bad actors that abuse networks and harm consumers. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Thank you for your testimony. You for the opportunity. Today designated by the ftc to trace back on robo calls. Im pleased to be here to discuss his effort and how congress can bolster. As i explained, there is technological and economic changes that made it cheap and easy for bad actors to call American Consumers together for any suspicious call brothers of the numbers of providers involved. Weve obtained the same information to take agencies multiple months to get subpoenas. Virtually the data we get explains those agencies. Status shows rubble call volumes 50 the trace backplanes of auto warranty robo calls plaguing american plaster dropped almost to zero. Notably robo calls plaguing americans plaster dropped almost to zero. Notably even absent the first action trace back to church illegal robo calls it an early time. 85 warning or violent offending plcustomer but innovating to fit global calls so do their perpetrators. Scammers make targeted live calls combined with communications through other channels. Scammers no they are calling as they pretend to be your bank. Also the decline in scam robo calls supplanted by horizon unsolicited unwanted telemarketing calls. These are called constituents are likely to receive today. A consumer may sign up but ms. Fineprint linking to daegan page with hundreds of thousands of Marketing Partners and they each have consumers consent for robo calls. This could be falsified prolific global colors engage in number quotation where they cycle through numbers sometimes for a single call a number. I provide text that congress can take to further empower industry efforts to stop illegal robo calls that i want to emphasize a few today. First, congress should ensure d. O. J. Prioritizes prosecuting criminals behind unlawful robo calls. Second, address problematic number quotation congress should expand the role to investigate how that actors access to scores of numbers. Congress should reintroduce the enhancement act that senators introduced to protect consumers. Thank you for the opportunity to speak and look forward to continuing to collaborate with the subcommittee and government robo calls. Thank you for your testimony today. We are recognized for five minutes. Thank you for the opportunity to speakli regarding robo calls and target talks and evolving landscape of clouds, tools and impossible. Enterprises, investment firms and government agencies. I work with many fortune 500 companies helpingve mitigate rik through automated controls and policies to comply with things like this act to implement background checks and employment screenings. I see similar patterns and needs and communications. Because the revenues of risk and revenue control those levers. Our work with talented team on the front lines of investigation, disruptions and enforcement. Our team is small given command to monitor tens of thousands of monthly and wiki active messages place campaigns targeting consumers. Some of our successes in industry working with states, attorneys generals offices and federal agencies and private industries 95 reduction campaigns. The partners that made identification and disruption of the campaigns are top priority when the sec identified specific robo campaigns as poison pill industry, i observed manyic providers previously entered how to treat the coast and decide how to stop them. We can credit 20224 stopped. Shifting from scooping up numbers to using numbersim and adopted strategies to minimize evidence Necessary Companies like ours to stop these bad actors. Her screening guardian stopped by doctors in these accounts providers checked on the first date to make a call or text routinely every time you want to traverse the Network Every time they fly. The prolific local and every campaign is different and we are in the area with fewer more advanced calls causing more harm. Theres no shortage of work to do if we continue to make progress and i look forward to your questions. Thank you for being with us today, i want to recognize myself for five minutes of questions. As you can see on the image behind me, there multiple examples of scammers impersonating companies to trick consumers and steal information. These are real messages collected by my staff but thanks for changed so we dont encourage people and therefore support product. This is a problem for some industries from Delivery Services to streaming platforms to financialat institutions to government. You all know what robo calls and texts are. I am sure you are tired of them and want them to end, thats what his hearing is about so do all have ideas from week and like this to bef submitted to s so the class or trip you are on, we want you to solicit the information to what is happening to you. Yes or no, is the text and falls impersonating u. S. Companies affect the ability of Companies Reach and build relationships with consumers . [inaudible] sigh. Sorry about that. I do know that it lends itself no, thean yes or chamber is concerned about business impersonation, fraud and text you see but we have seen noticeable harm to the overall business relationship with our customers. It is part of the package and Chamber Members do a good job being relationships but it is a worry, it is a concern the brand will be diluted by this kind of fraud. There are some companies calling my phone now i will not answer because ive been hit over andin over by robo calls fm them. Some companies have been spooked before but not time and time again but i am less likely to answer them, i am cautious as well but that is my behavior, i dont know if that is consistent with others, i saw a lot of heads nodding yes so we want to make sure there is trust established with this form of indications. My followup, i want to talk about the impact on consumers specifically, can youor share examples, brought customers andt limit access to goods and services. An example of an elderly woman in virginia who answered a prerecorded call reporting to be from the Social Security administration but found drugs are associated and if she didnt pay a certain amount of money take a certain number of steps she would lose her Social Security and as a result lost hundreds of thousands of dollars of savings. I have many more samples, auto how much time you want me to take but they are written up on the website. Ifth we can get that, will ak you to submit that into the record. It is part of the record for this particular hearing so thank you so very much. One of the recommendations in your testimony supports sec clarifications of consent. Earlier this year you work on other issues that we have sent a letter to the chairwoman asking permission to update guidance along the linesor of the ftc reinstating requirementsus for unwanted telemarketing calls you sad evidence consumer consent for telemarketing is increasingly r falsified, automated Intelligent Systems are using public consent on behalf of the consumer protocols they never asked for or do not want. How can the industry update guidance to develop standards that would limit the use of automated falsified consent for robo calls . Thank you. I think on this issue, the court and guidance out there are pretty clear already. Youou need consumers consent if its falsified, its not consent. I think those are. If there is ambiguity, happy to work with your staff on resolving that because consumers should only be in the calls they consent to. I appreciate that. The floor is yours for questions this the books that are being enforced. Hardly any of these have been collected due to the failure to pursue these and corporate obligations seems to have missed the opportunity to submit a report with meaningful recommendation. Do you believe the Justice Department is doing enough to ensure thatt actors coming out illegal telemarketing . In my written testimony i do not believe it is doing enough and you consent frustration and have a lot of tools they can use to enforce on their own to bring cases and enforce this so we believe the department of justice should do more. What can congress do to make sure they do those rules . Obligate them use them . Specific action but you have a lot of our to shape expectations and we offerer examples, you impose obligations on the medication, you could impose those updates to let you know what they are doing and we suggest d. O. J. Should prioritize enforcement and youwe can direct that and requiring local Law Enforcement and education office. Right now i think much of the effort is Elder Justice Initiative and really important to do more and i think congress can look into that and impress upon them the p priority. The focus on enforcement to bronx. We want to make sure the frivolous lawsuits. Abusive litigation acting in good faith and cap criminals. Would youto provide examples you view as litigation abuse . Working with the chambers done, there several reports to give examples but one example recently, the city of albuquerque after sending text sto residents notify to participate socially distant town hall. Ultimately i believe they were able to get out of the lawsuit after litigation and that is one example that seems to go after official communications or at least not that actors here. We have many members on the committee who represent rural states. There is a lot our state and we want to make sure americans receive governmental resist from private industry and many are connected. Thereen horrible. This Service Network in terms of stopping illegal robo calls telemarketing schemes and does this lack of fiber we see, does enthat has an outsized role constituents we have . When we haveco information that cant be passed to the networks, i would say protections in place are helping all consumers. Al when we get it off the network, it helps everyone. Thank you, mr. Chairman. He directed federal communications to issue critical new rules to crackdown on illegal robo calls. The trace act helped some of the worst practices but robo calls remain a plague on our telephone system. Mike constituents received over 23 million robo calls last year, 20 robo calls a second. This o year residents are on pae to receive 800 million robo calls. Americans are on pace to receive 54 billion robo calls this year. Some are lawful but of course the numbers of unlawful calls are astonishing. Too each of the witnesses, do you agree robo calls remain the serious issue . Yes. Certainly do, yes. Yes they remain a problem. Yes. Thank you. These fraudulent calls cost consumers tens of billions of dollarss to require telephone providers adopting technical standard to verify caller id information was accurate. Senator thune and i drafted this to a stop that actors from falsifying caller id information, a practice known as spoofing. Robomp callers calls to make caller id indicate a call coming from a local number. Im pleased ftc has worked to implement this but i am deeply alarmed by the number of fraudulent robo calls and scams. Verbal colors seem to change methods faster than we can adjust. Do youo. Agree that has been helpful reducing the number of calls but they have found ways to circumvent rules . Do you. Absolutely. We have seen less than ever before. Active from thees present jumpig when a bank branch closes down and using the number. And enders game of lacrimal and so far though molds are winning by an astonishing margin. If robo callers debated the caller id exploiting the numbers distributed, we may need to adopt regulations. Want to say one final word about fccs biblical medication, every telephone provider the federal Communications Companies not yet implement, the caller id verification system must submit a plan addressing illegal robo calls. Last week death sec took an important step to begin removing 20 noncompliant companies from robo authentication database. Some Companies Filing square dockable. That is what they have submitted in terms of their compliance with the law. Another filing was a picture of the companies logo. Another provider submitted a document that said nothing capital letters on the website. Nothing. Im glad ftc launched enforcement proceeding is it these problematic filings and i appreciate the ideas ms. Saunders suggested to further strengthen robo call database, i look forward to continuing to work with the commission colleagues on this issue, it goes to the heart of the issue the unwanted robo calls coming into all day long the most inconvenient time almost knowing your all your hunting genesis proclaimed the perfect time to get the family so we thank you for having this hearing and we have to get our focus on this issue. Bring w attention to the filings. Being submitted as official documents so thank you, and bring more attention to the enforcement side of this. Thank you, i will work on this. Thank you for the witnesses being here today. When i talked to folks from north carolina, they asked me about this a lot, i talked about robo calls and express frustration, and dont want to download the app that screams these things or pay a few extra dollars for that so they are frustrated and want solutions. When i was in the u. S. House a year ago, i was proud to be an original cosponsor according to these volumes declined about 55 vacation technologies, great name it. The testimony the imposter calls predominately originate abroad. These are scams going to call from the irs regarding back taxes or local power bill. These are particularly dangerous because they pretend to be medication from institutions like government agencies, utilities or for banks. The looking with the trace back group, have youe identified gas in the efforts to prevent illegal scam robo calls that make going after foreign colors . It is difficult because they feel they will not face justice because you choke companies the kick off the network so we have been effective at disrupting them, we have seen the impact especially on the robo call volume is way down but its one reason i agree with my colleague here criminal enforcement against these individuals and groups organized crime abroad doing this is critical. It is not the only way they defraud americans is if they are take algebra. Its almost over night so it is working with partners abroad. You discussed how the department of justice does not prioritize prosecuting that actors to break robo call. How does lack of enforcement influence efforts to shut down scams and it significant enough for criminals . The lack of enforcement shows jesus efforts were not seen as the department is not there to get across the finish line and collect those overtures. Similarly, fair open notorious cameras that seem to be clearly violating wire fraud and mail fraud statute and sending a message as josh was saying whether to overseas scammers, some of the folks Enforcement Actions in the united states, the department has taken a few actions to bring our heart to send the message will not tolerate scams margo discussed. They can be thumbs up these robo calls, how do these Small Businesses benefit from increased enforcement of the existingfr laws . I think they would benefit ia the same way and tumors what if they are demised and dont have the resources deploy sophisticated antifraud and sending the message to take that actors off the boat, i think it would be helpful the same way consumers are beingng defrauded. North carolina is one of the top leaders at the state level we have data that shows deeper pockets as a target victim so we are seeing a a rise in any Business Owners and engage in their campaigns. Thank you, my time has expired. Center tester, thank you. I appreciate it very much, thank you for those testifying today. Weve got motors and child molesters and rapists, people commit Armed Robbery and then robo callers. It distresses me a lot when i hear there are 700 billion. At one time in your career, is that what i gathered . At the department of justice. Thats goods enough. Very busy running down people doing or if it crimes. I know the u. S. Attorneys they busy students running down, during horrific crimes. I could make a claim this is as horrific as many as mentioned before because i got a business, the phone is ringing and expecting a call from my wife and i bus off and get to the call and the guy asked me if i paid my loan from when i was in school my havent been in college 45 years and i didnt have a loan, it was a different time. Okay . These are back home about people. The question i have, the d. O. J. Leveraged these fines and none has been collected, there is an effort inta the body to debunk e department of justice want to they have enough people . I know they have a y lot of priorities and people, i do think the department can walk and chew gum . At the same time s prioritize a few more cases. I would love it because we can pass all the laws we want take but unless somebody drops the hammer and makes them pay a price and puts them out of jail or put them in jail pay more taxes, i i think it will contine to happen and it will happen when i was in the state legislaturewh we passed a do not call list, i signed up for multiple etiquette more robo calls today back in 2003 so the question is, does Congress Need to do anymore . There is the enforcement . We will spread it around. The main thing i submitted this incentives need to be changed, whatever its done. If you hit somebody in the wallet, a kind of hurt. Writes the federal rules of procedure to get temporary restraining once a particular Voice Service provider is found to be a repeat offender, continue to process illegal calls after certified, the fcc should suspend its ability. I havent reviewed closely the proposal but i have not sold new authorities over the fcc to do suspensions to talk about. Would you be okay if they did them . Unintended consequences there. We talk about proxima they change their behavior and move to more targeted calls and the tools we built work as well. I get call the sound like a live person and if i stay on one of ghostly live person, one of the get ang real job instead of being a crook . Why t is it a different . That would be a prerecorded call but i think enforcement against fraudsters is thehe key there because they keep acting as rules and the protections change. Thats what a crook does, and by the way, these are groups and they look for the weakest link in the event so i came to this hearing hoping out here from some of you and i did hear your view, not the optimal equipment slowing down forever but stop folks. Anybody have Anything Congress can do . You received a loan robo call. Sometimes call from my neighbors call, i had a neighbor who got a call from his own, this is crazy stuff country does it need in their economy. Look at the tools and techniques this is not enough manpower to have a priority this echoes more than ten or 15 campaigns deep so work 50, 100 campaigns deep a week to week basis and they have shown campaigns can be. For the record, if any of you know in country, country, i love thought information. This is a bunch of fact, i will tell you to stop this. This is not good for anybody. For the role of college, get a job. My questions are going to pick up in the same vein. The thing i struggle first obviously experiencing this problem as a human being. It seems like we keep thinking around the edges and maybe they slow down and they are crooks prey on Vulnerable People in our countryge and so forth, i guessi am just wondering, if we are willing to do something big, bipartisan majorities in the south for this chamber to do, if we do something really safe, what can stop this . The example we talked about, you can ban them from a particular color of the site an individual goes up in times of online and they dont read the fine print, that is actively signed the number of and that opens up the floodgates that allowed criminals to go after them, i au wondering, what can we do to stop this thing . I think one of the challenges is the phonene system by natures a series all they know is whats just content. We traced back illegal calls and hit. The unsolicited telemarketing calls originate here done by people here but what megan said, one reason it is hard to cut lines, they pop up a new company to dissolve an old one and they are doing new robo calls and i do think f there laws that might apply the mark where they coming from . Are there particular areas . Where are these things coming from . Some from the medic and will and some other countries as well but india i think is a big portion. Has there been any effort diplomatically, legally to interface with countries where fraud is most common . Six the justice, is an attitude in our country that is small relative to International Crime focus on, its not small. When there is collaboration when fbi works in raised these call centers, we see the impact we saw them drop medially after so its a testament to why we should keep prioritizing because it doesnt work. Official intelligent this afternoon must what could you do suchch. Happy to work with you on that, imbo not sure, one thingi will say is cpa right now. Robo calls are calls prerecorded or artificial voice. One thing there i do believe it applies. Thank you. Senator klobuchar. Thank you, a lot of questions here. Ill go fast. First of all, we know after it passed in 2019, after rules were in place, scammer calls declined by almost half and now we have all kinds of new issues. Noticed in your testimony. Collaboration, how can we make sure tracy illegal calls results in enforcement action . I think what we have seen with ceaseanddesist, i think it is highly effective. The target and dropped off the face of the earth almost so i think we are making great progress. The more we do, some of the roles about notice your provider, i think it is a process in overtime it will keep going the right direction so i think we have done a lot of great work thereno. Ms. Saunders, why do you think particularly these telemarketing calls the volumes are so high. The do not call list and we see a number of people call about violations and prioritize here identifieds as scams now identified as telemarketing calls and most of the calls originate in the united states. We think what needs to be done is the fcc should adopt quick adopting temporary restraining order methodology and Service Provider find repeatedly after notice processed scammer telemarketing calls should be suspended immediately six database and will cost them money and even after us. That will be inattentive to be more careful. Week actually know one of these calls serving in the marines across the internet asking for money to be delivered to texas. The military families are they doing to get ahead of these robo calls . These are targeted once with a persons voice and all kinds of things couldt happen looking we do to mitigate this . Thank you. Voice serviceto providers protecting their services to us they come off the grid of technology they have labeled and analytics on the network, they will continue find out how to identify and take action accordingly did one of the things whether it is a local history will have an important part in the targets attack on this investigation we have done and similar attacks, those just have gotten a personal phone number like anybody going into a they are extremely hard for communication provider that looks like a customer making those calls. Im using an example like get worse. The voice of general and plano famous amanda and go to all the military families it is a foldable person who so i think it adds to the danger robo text, there were 12 billing scan text last month, i think i thought half of them and text often includes links, malware and spyware fcc adopted rules, what other measures such as a consider . We have recommended adopt special security rules for robo text that includes urls because of significant damage. Congress passed statutes that provide for protection once they have their money stolen from their bank accounts, causing a big help as well. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator welch, are recognized. Thank you very much. You are incredible frustration, all of us heard from strutting constituents crazy. Three and half small state, three and half million robo calls last month. Its like calls, it is really unsettling especially to older people who think they may be getting a call from a grandchild, son or daughter and they have to pick it up and figure out what is going on i know youre trying to do stuff but its not working the way it needs to. I joined some zerocoupon and senator markey asking to align its do not call registry guidelines with those on the ftc as well as prohibit telemarketers from pulling consumers explicit consent. Do you believe these actions would benefit consumers . David sellers benefiting from calls have gotten to them but proposed regulation or anything like it very dangerous, fcc issued regulations 20 years ago requiring telemarketer calls prereported the consumer provided signed written consent allowing that color to make calls. Its generative a. I. And there are some arguments that that could push back on scammers but also is a tool abused by scammers especially generating avoid the ongoing efforts of medications that protect consumers. First id like to recognize operations that refuse to me attorneys general they have flocked to it what it is doing as it affects social engineering on our side defending against the plan generative a. I. Synthesizes so that is a great place to buy that technology is. I want to go through this, how can the fcc providers to block calls . I think the fcc has done a good job implementing it and the problem is not the particular technology, it is the fact that there is another method for robo callers to use borrowed numbers rotating as mr. Rudolph explained fourminute. Robo callers to use resources or misuse them in this way, it completely undermines the whole purpose so it is time for the fcc to drill down on number and resources misused. I yield back, mr. Chairman. Senator hagan the book, your recognized. Thank you, mr. And i think all ofa you, what a fascinating issue. We look at the issues around the world relatively small talk to in our state of mind that he cant function number of cybersecurity expert raise the issue of some companies have arms, essentially tricking consumers into browsing a website tricked into basically signing consent to receive robo calls and i cant imagine people intentionally would default. I guess they must. Anyway, ftc launched investigations into Companies Behaving this way in my question, do you believe stronger cybersecurity practices or clear all my disclosures would be sufficient . Unfortunately although i understand the frustration of the chamber of commerce in class action at the moment the danger is one of the primary ways that incentivizes scholars and colors with the law. Select the block to be clear and comply with it. Next studies there is a marketer and low monthly cost by production, generative a. I. Potential effectively protect inpeople from scammers. Going back to the g questioni want to reinforce the operator that can use tens of thousands or millions of numbers to contact you as we about what we can do, it is easy to block an individuals number and it is not hit by that but blocking a single number communicating with you, require companies to say i will dissent that one number if you unintentionally grant it, you can control the color and revoke that consent so if we can change policies when youve got an entity and have many numbers to try to rotate through, you dont need generative a. I. , just make sure medications much identity as they communicate that with you. Great. In your testimony you described businesses use automated messages for customers so when these factors lead individuals with robo calls, people lose their trust and the best example, it doesnt give my numbers, sometimes rarely they decide they want to get a hold of me so caller id block. I had to send someone a text before they take my call because they think that will always be a trouble call. Even my family they should except that but they dont. How would you think Small Businesses invest for unwanted calls . Small businesses fraudulent legal calls in the same way at the front and so to prevent spoofing to clean up the ecosystem, it is important to instill or protect company because they do want to pick up thees bones. They think everyone benefited and they are calling you who it reports to be and not a scammer. They are the ones who are distracted. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here. Thank you so much. Senator rosen, your recognized. We cannot hear you right now. We can. Thank you. Sometimes technology to 1 million phone calls all at once. Thank you for being here today. According to the ftc in 2022 alone the third across and identity theft. Every year millions of americans, many of my constituents in these predatory robo calls, they see the Government Agency or other entity and identify information so the amount of scam calls he received monthly asked him to refinance his mortgage. He received ten to 15 calls a day so thank you them can serve our country. And we have tota do more to protect in combat these. So what advice would you give to everyone particularly in more vulnerable communities who are targeted scammers . Thank you for the question, wewe have one clear piece of advice to give americans until this problem is solved. If you receive a call from anybody unless you are absolutely positive you know the person who called you do not get access to your bank account or any other money to that color. If you receive a call from somebody reporting to be from the Veterans Administration and you want to make sure your benefits areur protect, hang up, look up the number for the Veterans Administration or whoever it is who supposedly call you and left directly but dont we dont do that even when we receive solicitation from charity we believe in, we never give over the phone Payment Information direct that is great advice and will have to keep putting them out there over and over people take care of this message. Can you tell us how companies Work Together too ensure people are aware . What are you doing to make sure your advocacy is reaching every corner, every state, urban and rural . Thank you for the question. Thee industry is active for consumers and customers but one thing they have protections in place, all major wireless carriers so there is a lot of work to protect them. A workforce creating all of these ways to protect consumers, as a programmer, i have a unique understanding of the challenges. We have presumably had enough resources to combat that so Law Enforcement officers bring access to technology to talk aboutt advanced as we see a. I. Play a role so based on your experience, what technology and training to bolster resources . I have not given it a lot of thought to state and local Law Enforcement but it makes me think back to the department of justice and collaborative work the attorneys general are doing so my perception is there are resources available, some in terms of consumer but i respect the federal trade commission can dig into the resources and help state and local Law Enforcement of the state attorney general has been active in they are uniquely positioned to help state and local Law Enforcement for these exotic scam attempts my panelist depressing. If you have constituents they may not getting. Of course we are just going to work on the workforce and work to protect consumers. Thank you for this hearing, i yield back. Thank you so very much. I will recognize myself for additional questions. Everyone is talking about a. I. To some degree and using different yesterday the chairman proposed a new inquiry that would take a closer look at official intelligence impacting unwanted robo calls and texts from a this would investigate how the commission might use a. I. Technology to protect consumers under the Consumer Protection act. You know scam calls and text, how do you envision using Artificial Intelligence to protect consumersfi from robo calls and robo text . Is a great question, thank you. I would almost think would enter an episode, each of us will be protected by our own individually we have telemarketing and production box and having to run that but that joke aside using a large link which model in the database filing impressed out all the ones that are junk. Pretty quickly to have the data and understand that mitigation and filing to implement for those providers. If you look at the list of enforcement, the same could be done where if you want to investigate communications and medications or memos to discuss policies or controls and process the data and come to the understanding of what was happening. We are facing enforcement labor and it is a great place for technologygy. I very much appreciate that response. Also attention to the line of questioning senator markey, a requirement with the fund submitting documents that are intended for whatever nonsense, it shows its not working, there is a loophole and no attention to the prosecution or requirements for mitigation and using tools too identify and ensure we are able to enforce the mitigationor plan. I also appreciate your response to questions about what could be done looking at where traffic is carried. Data ive seen suggests all carriers may be smaller number of areas that carry more of. That is revenue. These calls with billions of dollars over and over and released a mitigation plan, it is the cost of doing i want to relate this to the institution in america time, money for cartel. The cost of doing business is pain a fine. The smart people created these loopholes but will post people have learned to take it vantage of them. What i hope is we cani agree to the ending of poles. I remarked on this committee, a hearing on derailment. Well intentioned legislation, wellintentioned testimony, people working together but when rulemaking is started, theres all kinds of stuff into a registry, one loophole codified into the rule. Loopholes can come across as a snake or whoever is the minimum, i hope come back to current fund is to stop it. With the transition to telecommunications being digital, you can trace this back. Mr. Rubel, you can stop it because you know where it is coming from. You can follow it. Why is it so hard . If the traffic small area, but work with them. The small carriers to have the capabilities but with the industry saying you are the problem you need to stop this carrier knowingly doing this on a look at traffic from the bigger names in the country, stop. I am hoping we can get there, i appreciate it. I will close with this particular question around a. I. Generative scandals in reno is an urgency to mitigate risk and establish guardrails around a. I. We see examples around here, cloning childrens voices and we have heard testimony with veterans or active military voices are being spooked steel Financial Resources from families. Yes or no, laws and regulations around protocols covering a. I. Generated scam calls . The telephone Consumer Protection act was found to cover scam calls and telemarketing calls. What anyone else response to the. It is felt to technology in the report the chamber put out permission and i think there is a lot to learn how this will play out but will reach. I concur. I appreciate the. The problem is is scam calls, it is effective against telemarketing scandals in the only way is to deal with providers providing access to the Communication Network and we dont a law that lies providers nor army recommending their be one. What we are recommending is be encouraged or enabled act quickly against those providers. I am concerned it does not handles one format but im concerned in this space as well. When it was written, this technology did not exist as it does today. One of the legislations by the time it passes, a generation or two ahead of the wellintentioned proposal, rulemaking bodies are what has happened here and industry. Something that is happening, ask for help. How do we stop the nonsense . 39 billion stolen in your, that should rise to any prosecutors attention the department of justice is not going to do this, how do we find other partners, how do you work to put forth, theres not prosecution and what . If there is a small number of entities responsible for the majority of traffic and they have been one and it continues, again it is the cost of revenue and can make 100 million some people are willing to take that into. You have thoughts on what congress could be doing . I think i have articulated it already, uniquely poised regarding the providers. What i want to explain is for those all in agreement. The reason they cant block them is a are mixed so it is impossible to identify. While it may be mixing, they can tell where it is originating you are very mr. John location in the world, why are you hearing traffic where they will see is calls are coming from intermediate provided so you only carry legal calls in providing her testimony an example of how the colors can use the power to encourage their Service Providers to only carry pickle and isolate key legal hold which would enable will will how are you able to hold how do you know where they are coming from the process, who did you get the call from . We have a portal login to in the respond to get warnings. They paid traffic and all of this implication. They take calls. The way we designed our system and providers is the originator of the goals we trace. Common carrier scratch see your. But we see them either wholesale and the injured connected network, i providers theres too much. With being said, where traffic can be identified, to protect people. Able to identify where it originates. As it reaches the consumer, he got to amazing ways to understand which providers or originators tracece back and ift has the packet with it, it is clear as day there currently are account identify as this error so if you ask me, we can get along that and it can be eliminated. We are missing the msi segment r those calls providers. The goal and say goal looks like it is wrong. They go and will find a new home and it is noted by take this on, they will look at that i would take the account and with the account be communicating. Those discussions about hey these are the providers that we are seeing. Appreciate that. Ms. Brown . Do you want me to address ai which i think is what you started with . In this space with ai, also given the responses associated with being able to narrow where there may be a call with a carrier, is there something that could be done to share it within the ecosystem . Is this something that the companies could adopt to share through that process . Is it something the ftc should be doing with existing authorities that this is just this is whats going to happen every time we see this, and it is proven, if you could touch in those three areas . Sure, i will do my best. Im sort of optimistic, and i think the chamber would be that ai will sort of juice up what the itg and you mail are already doing. That gives me optimism that those antifraud efforts and the ability to detect bad traffic is going to get better over time. I think at a recent workshop the ftc held back in september with the National Science foundation, they heard about that as well. Thats my response on the ai piece of this or the ai approach. It sounded to me from what was being said that the ftc is intimately involved in getting this information. I think its maybe a question of scale to address the issue that you were raising. Again, maybe ai, maybe some Additional Technology can help. I dont have visibility whether its a manual process or if it is really calls with the Enforcement Bureau which it probably is which makes me sad for the Enforcement Bureau staff, but i think theres a reason to be sort of cautiously optimistic that maybe they havent cracked the code, but there can be additional steps. If the fcc can be encouraged to do more of what it did in the auto warranty space and the student loan space, i think the report the ftc gave to congress had some really remarkable data in it about the decrease in calls after they took those actions. Im sort of cautiously optimistic about that process working. I dont see right now a need for new regulatory authorities to be given because it feels like that process is actually working fairly well, even if its a little opaque. Sorry for that long answer. I appreciate the response very much. Thank you all for being here today and to all my colleagues for attending today. This is important testimony, and there as you all know an immense interest with the American People in this space, an immense frustration with the American People about what happens to them every minute of every day as well. And i want to commend you for helping us solve this challenge, for helping consumers one at a time, for providing support to help the process, understand where and what is happening every day, looking at the ability of rules that exist, exploring those that may be needed, to make things better, so thank you so very much. A remaining challenge and a very complex issue. With that i will close the hearing and should members have additional questions for the witnesses for the record, i ask they submit them to the committee within two weeks. Witnesses will have an additional two weeks to respond. Thank you, everybody. Cspan is your unfiltered view of government. Were funded by these Television Companies and more including mediacom. 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