Transcripts For CSPAN2 Daniel 20240703

Thank all so much for coming out tonight. Im lissa muscatine. Im one of the coowners of politics and prose along with my husband brad graham, whos there and on behalf of our great staff here, we welcome all of you to tonights which i have been excited about for so long. And im so glad all of you are here, in part because its great book, which is always fun to talk about, and in part because its a great person who wrote it. My former colleague and dear friend dan baer and im really to have a chance to talk about this book. Its, i think, a very important book in this moment. I really urge all to read it. Dont be afraid. Even though dan is super scary smart and very experienced in the questions about world, he has made this book so clear, so compelling and so easy to read and yet full of nuance and Historical Context that that really helps articulate this kind of road map for where this country can go in this sort of depraved moment we find ourselves in. So, dan, welcome. Thank you. Let me just say a couple of things. Those of you who dont know him, he is a vice president. The Carnegie Endowment for Research Policy Research Policy research and the europe and europe. Ive gotten someone something right here. Okay. Oh, i have it right here. I should have just looked. He a former ambassador. Hes the u. S. Ambassador to the organization for security and cooperation in in europe, in the obama administration. Before that, he was Deputy Assistant of state for democracy, human rights and labor. Also in the obama administration. And he has been the director of Public Higher Education for the state of colorado hes even been a senate candidate. And i should just it truth and advertising explain how we know each other which is that we a forced partnership many years which turned out to be one of the great gifts to me and for me know for be really and dan and i were were joined together with the task of working on and writing Hillary Clintons testimony in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when she had been nominated to be barack secretary of state and we spent about six weeks. I would or a month working on it. It very hours. Very some comical situations. And we got to know each other pretty darn. We worked on it down to the last minute, pulled an all nighter the night before, listened ever. Let me forget the fact that i brushed teeth and spat out of the car window on our way over to the capitol. So i. Well, the funny thing about it was, we had to person i mean, this is way more detail than any of you wants, but its kind of a music. We had to convince the secret service to let us go in my car in the secret Service Package and follow the about to be a secretary of state. You know, through the streets of washington to make to a 9 00 hearing on capitol hill and the the secretary clintons but not yet secretary clintons housekeeper gave us a little and and because we had been up all night and we were pretty pathetic and dan literally was brushing his teeth in the passenger seat of my car as i was trying to keep up with secret service motorcade. So weve but we were bonded for life based on that. But the is that i just realized in about 3 seconds how smart this man was and also how good he was know this is just a person of tremendous decency and compassionate humanity that goes along with your big giant brain. So it was a gift to me and it has been ever since. So lets just start with the first question, which is why you write this book. I wrote the book partly because i was worried, partly in response to conversations. I having. You mentioned that i a that i ran for senate. The fact that i am not a u. S. Senator tells you all how ended up but but during that campaign got the chance to talk to a lot of people around and found a lot of people asking question a different version of the same question which is is it still work worth for what were working . You know, i go out and i volunteer and im worried that nothing ever changes. And i worry that that that combined with kind of a narrative that you sometimes heard washington or in the establishment that, you know, america on a trajectory of permanent decline, that the chinese were going to eat our lunch, that the combination of those two things was potentially really, really, really dangerous. And i didnt believe either of those things had to be. I dont i dont diminish the challenges we face, but i dont think its the case that we have to accept that we cant make. And i dont think its the case that americas on an inexorable trajectory decline, i do think that we have to make different choices than weve made collectively. But but i think theres a way forward. Before i forget, i think one of the most interesting, important points of your book, which is not a major point, but there that really struck me, is that democracies imperfection actually is what drives progress, right . I mean, you say this and so we can look at the news today. Has anybody noticed happened in the house of representatives today or yesterday or at the United Nations or, you know, down the long list and . You say people have the sense that these problems are insurmountable and, immutable, and yet youre absolutely right, isnt perfect. Never has been. But its these imperfections, challenges and things that go wrong that should propel us to propel us forward and when its working right, the magic of democracy is not that it is perfect, but that actually things can change without having all the institutions scrapped or or having revolution you can get evolution without revolution and and youre quite right. I mean, i think one of the things i say in the introduction about the problems we face is that if all of the people in room made a list of the top ten problems independently right now of top ten problems that america faces. 80 of those problems would be overlapping in some way, maybe, maybe articulated and in different ways. But we would agree on eight out of the ten, not only that if we made significant progress on two or three of those eight, we would all agree that that was like a really encouraging in the right direction. And so it feel like we have unlimited innumerable problems and that they are totally but if we start to break it down and actually if we made some significant progress on a few of them, i think it would create the kind of inertia that leads to progress on the other side. Yet you say we were sort of in a state of poly crisis, but what we have to do is instead of just resign ourselves to that to think about poly progress, that you can make progress on these fronts that are often overlapping. You make the case here of how interconnected this, you know, especially economic and political challenges are so you the titles work is the four tests how did you arrive at these four. I just want to say dan points out i think you point out in the book or heard you say this, that the tests are not rigid categories. You know, theyre not meant to be. This is everything fits neatly in this thing. Theyre really were amalgams of compendiums and theyre a way to organize the we think about problems and the are so original i mean i love the way you know youre presenting this constellation of both challenges and potential solutions in these four brackets that are you know, theyre not so rigid. But tell us, you came up, you know, came came to sort of do these for the honest answer that i was sitting down doing exactly. I just said of making a list of what i thought, like the biggest problems that america faced or the Biggest Challenges we face in terms of succeeding in the 21st century were and when i looked at the list that i had that i had made those four kind of buckets emerged to me. And so, you know, the four tests are scale, by which i mean dealing with the fact that, you know, is never going to be relative as big as we were economic, actually as powerful as we were politically 30 to 50 years ago, like were never going to be 40 of the Global Economy again. Were never going to be as dominant or in the foreseeable. Were not going to be as dominant as we. And in the wake of the cold war, when there was this unusual unipolar moment. So we have to figure how to work and be successful in the World Without those advantages of totally overwhelming scale. Now, were still very big. Were by far the richest country on earth. Theres a lot going for us. And so i think when people talk about our relative decline, they should make sure to remember our absolute strengths. But so scale is one, investment is one, those two are those two are more conventional, i think kind of National Security strategy frames. But the last two are fairness and identity. And those go really to the real that we have at home. If were going to be in the world, we have to address some of those fundamental challenges at home. You theres a very beautiful dedication in this book maybe you could read it and tell us a little bit of the back story so. First of all i loved working at the state department. I loved my colleagues at the state department. I have enormous respect for. American diplomats. I had enormous respect for my colleagues from other agencies as well. But the book, in addition to being dedicated, my three nieces, which is perhaps more conventional dedication, the book is dedicated to a woman named stella sears, who was my assistant for three and a half years when i was ambassador in vienna and stella as a member of, the Foreign Service officer, the office of Management Specialist corps and she was born and raised in moldova during the soviet union and ended up marrying an american becoming an american citizen and joining the state department and. When putin invaded ukraine for the first time in 2014, i had arrived at post a few months earlier and there was a weeks span during the early of the invasion where i was on the o. C. Had was the only International Organization to send monitors the ground in ukraine. And i had and i was negotiating that arrangement. And then and then helping to implement. So i had late night secure video conferences with the white house almost every night for weeks. And night. I was leaving at like sometime after midnight. And stella was always there to make sure everything was working. And i said to her, you know, im really sorry youve been working late so often these last few weeks. I really appreciate and im sorry for a lot late nights away from your kids and, she said, never apologize to me. I am proud to have this job. I am proud to be an american. Im glad to have a job with purpose. And i could be picking potatoes in the mud in belarus. A living. Dont ever thank me for working hard. And i was. I said stella, you got to hold me to a higher standard than picking potatoes in the mud in belarus like i got to do better than that. But it, you know, shes an immigrant who believes in america. And when i have found my own confidence tested in years, i have thought back to that moment. And thats why i dedicated the book to. Yeah. And i think the message its such a touching story and i think the message is also there are things worth fighting for even when it seems and i think we can all agree it feels pretty desperate right now. Not only are there things worth fighting for, but when you think about it, you know, i mean, i talked people who say, look, i think its too far gone. I mean, the chances our success are 1000000 to 1. You know what . Okay, maybe youre right. The odds are 1000000 to 1. Maybe. Right. That its actually much better than that either way. What are you going to give up and let our children grandchildren not have . I mean, theres no choice but to work for it. Well, you say that very clearly in the book what is the alternative . You know, we can sit here and hem and haw about you know well the u. S. Could have done this that what would the alternative have been and what then in lets talk about america and hegemony for a second because you say a lot about that in the book and you make the point the standard of the metric used to be american politics and economic domination globally. The only measure of success that was what defined us as a country. That was what we believed enabled us to provide a good, sort of secure environment for the citizens of this country, the people of this country. And youre the big premise in this book is. No, we dont need to be a hedge on. In fact, we cant be right and we dont need to be. So can you talk that for a second . Sure. I mean, we cant be as i mean, being yemen is a good strategy if you can pull it off. But but you got to be realistic when. Thats over. And i think their headlines are particularly lazy strategists. Whether those are monopolistic firms or countries that are used to being the most powerful countries in their region or or in the world, as we were. You get lazy when you say, you know, when when youre playing poker and every hand is a full house, you dont have to be that good at playing poker to keep winning. We still have a strong hand, but not every hand as full house. And what that means is that we have to learn we america have to learn. Strategies of polity, international that dont depend on hegemony. And that means that we have to depend less on coercion and dominance and more on genuine leadership and actually figuring out how to rally other actors around purpose. That our good for prosperity and peace in the world. And that will keep americans safe and prosperous as well. Yeah, you see we have to be better at convincing, not coercing, but what tends to happen i think. And you talk about this is that instead of if we cant be a hedge you know a hegemon, we then just default into and thats overly simplistic. Okay, well, if we cant be the most powerful dominating country in the world in every way, well, well just retreat from world. Yeah, and i dont know that its that analytical. And i actually have enormous sympathy for the emotional response that a lot of that that i think drives certainly a lot of the isolationism on the american right right now because think you know the world is a scary place its becoming more complicated it feels like the problems that used to be far away are coming home to kitchen tables more and more and theres a temptation say like i just want to opt out of all of that. But of course we cant opt out the world is not going to go away if we become isolationist. In fact, the problems that we feel like might come to us will come to us quicker and we will have fewer friends help us deal with them. And so i understand the emotional response of kind of just wanting to withdraw, but its not its not a good strategy. It be successful. Yeah. I mean it is an ever popular strategy in certain especially the republican party. But what you do say that we can do should try to do is to you say we want a world not that we control, but that is hospitable to the continuation of the american experience. Can you elaborate a little bit on that. Yeah, guess there too. Im trying to separate out. Im trying to im trying to imagine a world in which without american hegemony we can still be confident in the future of the american experiment. Its harder its harder than the last. We had a major shift in International Politics when the the end of the British Empire happened last century and america was a scrappy young, growing industrial country that was right there ready to catch the ball from the brits. And so there was a handoff from one. And yes, deeply flawed colonial democracy to and and liberal ideas had. A guardian as International Politics evolved. Right. Theres no obvious theres no single today for the United States to hand off to. So we face a more complicated where we have to build what i call of cooperation around global problems and kind of hand off be more being part of a board of directors on something than a ceo. Well, you you say the book that the world run itself and. We have had these multilateral institutions that have been set up for decades. We if anybodys been following going on the u. N. General assembly this week and vladimir zelensky. Being so critical of its you quote i dont know which, french president , it was it said natos brain dead. So we have all these structures place that have been there for a long time. Are they just not working or is it that we need an attitude shift about how to reconstitute root them . Kind of both. I mean, as somebody who who was the ambassador to a to an International Organization that operates on consensus and included the russian. I know. I know about how hard it is to reach consensus on everything. And, you know, these organizations are only good as the participants in them. Its not deep flaw with the United Nations Security Council that causes the united Security Council to not be able take decisions in the in interest of world peace. Its a flaw with Vladimir Putins regime and often with the Chinese Government and others who do not support actions the u. N. Should take to help secure peace in the world. I think we have to stay committed to those organizations. They are they are inclusive. They are a place for us to make arguments and over time. Those arguments do have maybe every time. But over time, those arguments do have weight and do have an effect i also think were going to see much of what were starting to see. And, you know, the Biden Administration has done several things that are examples of this, like orcas or the quad. Were going to start seeing much more kind of flexible think they i forget what they call it flexible plurilateral liz or Something Like that they have a they have a catch phrase for it, but going to see much more kind of innovation of identifying either around certain issues fishing in the pacific ocean, whatever regions or were going to see together a group of countries around climate, a group of countries who are particularly interested in in a particular issue or problem and and problems solving in those in those kind new groups. So just as a side question, when you were at the osce, do did you practice this art of convincing and not coercing, lets say, with the representative of the Russian Federation . I mean, did how did that actually play out in practice you well. And did it give you ideas for this book, which im sure it did. I mean, two things in practice. One, it was somebody, my team who came to me in the early days of the invasion in 2014 and said, you know, could use a model like what the osce had done in the former yugoslavia to. We could we could have a mandate that would allow observers to look at the conditions, civilian observers to look at the conditions on the ground. The russians were then spewing false allegations about terrible happening in eastern ukraine. There were terrible things that they were perpetrate, that they were spewing false allegations. And so they said, well, if claiming that all these bad things happening, we should just take their claims and say we should send in an observer and it was somebody on, my team who wrote up the first mandate and i we negotiated including with the russians. Yes. They were caught out because they had been making all these complaints and it looked like we were answering them with with a solution and so we did get something done with the russians as they were invading another country. That was participating state and then over the became much harder to get things done after that but over the over the ensuing years you there were weekly debates on russias invasion and ukraine and an ambassador and i would each speak and the Russian Ambassador would would speak and. There are 57 participating states in the u. N. In the osce. And let me tell you that the other 54 were on the side of the ukrainians, ambassador. Not on the side. The Russian Ambassador, whether they said so or making those arguments, people realize where principle is. You know, diplomats are people. And the they send back to capital is basically that the Russian Ambassador had no leg to stand on, that he was embarrassing himself and things like that. Then, you know, thats that is important in International Politics try to continue making the argument on a principled basis. You know, youre making a really good case for why these very organizations, institutions do still get some stuff done. Yeah. Can we move to investment for a second . Theres a quote love in the book, which is you say that is a statement of interest. Yeah. I mean all of that and a commitment to the future obviously a statement of intent about, the future. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. And i mean, one of the core arguments of the, the, the chapter is about what i call the investment test is that we have to not just tinker around with the dials, but actually recognize that the enormous technological change that weve through means that we have to invest in the American People, in a way that we havent done in the past. And again in the last century, when the kind of first wave of the Industrial Revolution had ended. We realized there was a realization whether conscious or not that people needed more education in order to stay ahead. We created Public Schools that through 12th grade. We now need more than that people need more than a High School Diploma to be successful in the Global Economy today. And not only that we can no longer afford to not be educating all americans because the scale means that we need everybody off the bench participating. And so we have to massively invest in human, Human Capital and means not just education, but also making sure that people are able to work that, means childcare and elder care. Those are the things that are going to drive the American Economy and maintain our strength in the world and. Its going to take a shift in the way that people about and theres nobody some of this investment will come from the private sector, but theres nobody the kind of this other than the federal government states will obviously play a key role. And so we have to have a mindset that we if we want to compete in the next 50 years, we have invest in the American People in a way that we havent done in the past. You know, you talk the care economy. You just mentioned a couple of aspects of it. And that also hits on issues pay, equity and institutional and racism in our economy. Structural economic forces work against the most marginalized people. And i when i was reading that, i was reminded, dont know if any of you read this piece about. Katie porter a couple of days ago, but she says in her book, being a real person and having a real life is in fundamental conflict with american politics. And, you know, is so apt. And its a lot of what youre talking about mean if you cant know if why is our Health Care System . Are the jobs so low paying populated usually by people who are always at the bottom of the economic. Yes. And i guess part of the argument that im making is that, well, for me, it is compelling to have social and justice arguments about pay equity or about closing the achievement in education, or about sure that Health Care Workers who are doing Home Health Care are a living wage. The social, Economic Justice arguments are compelling to me. I also think that if you youre not persuaded by that, you just have to believe in math. We dont. We not we will not have the kind of economic achievement that we need to have for america to stay strong if we dont invest in those things, if we dont solve those problems, if we dont take on racism like we need everybody off the bench and fully in Productive Work and we cant do that if were held back by racism, sexism etc. But i think, you know, absolutely. And i you know i just wonder, though, if the biggest challenge of all isnt the sort of zero sum game mentality that you talk a little about that in the fairness check, in the fairness section. But, you know, if dont if i cant see the benefit, having wellpaid Health Care Workers, how it might redound not just on society, but my community. And its going to be a hard sell, isnt it . Because all of these Structural Forces are at work to stop us from doing this . Yes. And i think we we have to break of bad habits. I mean, two things on that. One, i think its important that rich people in america of which there are a great many, recognize that if america continues on the on the trajectory were on right now. In terms of widening inequality, the quality of life for their children is even theyre rich is not going to be great either, is going to be worse than it would be. Theyre going to have the do they want to live like a rich person in brazil where . Theyre worried about kidnaping. What . I mean, like we want to have a more society, a more fair society. It will be better for everyone. Everyone feel safer, more secure. It will be more possible to find fulfilling life no matter whether. You are very rich or not. So, i mean, i think its i think its important to make the case to rich people that they also have to gain out of this. And i forgot my second point. Well, you remember bill clinton used to always say i should be getting taxed. Im only paying this person know. And he was trying to make the point, im wealthy, i dont pay enough taxes. We are going to have there are only two ways to for the government invest money and one is to borrow it and the other other is obviously through taxation. I think the kind of investment i mean, i think theres a difference between consumption, spending, which, which, frankly, tax cuts are in their effect and genuine investment in the future of the American Economy and in the health and wellbeing of the American People. I think it is a fair argument. We should have these debates in congress about which kind of spending were talking about, whether were talking about consumption, whether were talking about the kinds of investments that will pay dividends in the long run and that will leave all americans better off. Well, you make the point that we maybe shouldnt i wasnt making the distinction in my own head just now of consumption versus other kinds of investment spending. But you make the point that why dont we just think of things as investments, not spending. Yes. I mean, so not spending in the sense of consumption. Yeah. Its not spending in the way that i buy a that then goes away. Yeah. But the meantime we cant even pass a budget. Right. And we are being held hostage by a, you know, spineless weak House Speaker who is now beholden to a handful of and cant get anything done. Im going to confess that i have to feel sorry for Kevin Mccarthy. Im not quite there. I think i mean, two things on that. One, theres no question. Think about what it looks like from other world capitals. Think about what it looks like from beijing to see that the American Congress cant agree on rules to. Theyve got the popcorn out. Right. Exactly. I mean, you know, part of chinas strategy is premised on american decline and this kind of political validates their thinking. Theres no question that its not good for us in the world because doesnt look like the way that you want a grown up country to behave. And its not just this budget fight. Its obviously the fact that congress has repeatedly failed to pass a proper budget for the functioning of federal government. And not doing that means that you actually dont adapt your spending so that you are doing more investment because what they do is they just continue the old budget. Well, the old budget probably wasnt great for for 2017, but its certainly appropriate for 2024. And if we just continue what we were doing in the past, you never get the opportunity, innovate to do things better and we need them to pass a budget. The other thing that i think and this is part of what talk about in the book is we should recognize how deeply connected this kind of political circus and dysfunction is to instance our Campaign Finance system. It is connected to the fact that wealthy elites in this country effectively control the currently control of the kind of make up of the u. S. Senate because money has become so important to to electoral politics, particularly kind of the senate is the sweet spot of where a very Significant Office its not necessarily a National Name and. And so but you need statewide media and stuff like that. So its expensive to run. And theres often often when you say that and it is true that that the very wealthy have are spending too much on american politics and buying power that way the the small dollar donors are not a perfect antidote to that. I mean, dont get me wrong, i people should be able to make small dollar donations. But the way that that has evolved because so much money is required, run for an office in our country the way that the small dollar donors have evolved is to create these armies of often fringe on both sides. People, you know, we all get these fundraising emails and we think, who the heck does this work on . Like, why are there so many exclamation marks and are you using hyperbole to. Yeah. I mean, like, well, both both parties do it and. The answer is it doesnt work on 90 of people, but it works on 3 of people. And they keep giving 20. And by the way, they let their, you know, Lauren Boebert or Marjorie Taylor greene, vote for the rules to debate the budget. When Kevin Mccarthy needs them to do that. And because those people are more beholden to this army of people who like the theater and who give them 10 every month. And so, you know, that is part of what generates the circus. No, youre right. I mean, its sort a galvanizing factor of this of this kind of crazy, hyperbolic insanity that we watch day. And im sure we all do get the same texts and emails and how did they get phone number . And now theyre calling me and, you know, its its relentless. I mean, and i think you have a have a have a have a heart for the poor candidate who calls you. Because i can tell you, its absolutely fun and the worst experience. Well, also, in your own experience discovered a how hard it is to raise money. I mean you know a lot of people people were excited about you about you running. But it was it was i mean, you just you saw how how much money actually were going to need to run a race. Colorado. Yes. I remember my first meeting with Chuck Schumer and as i left the office, his staffer said, you good luck and raise 1,000,000 in the next 80 days or else its over. And, you know, thats a lot. Thats a thats a of money. Yeah. Well, i a friend who was was in congress until a couple of terms ago and she was from a sweet democrat from a swing district and. She said she spent literally and she was in the house 4 hours a day, literally 4 hours she had spent calling people to raise money. And by the way, thats 4 hours a day that she didnt spend legislating. Exactly, which is what we want those people to be. Thats theoretically. Okay, lets lets talk about fairness for a section which you said is kind of an unusual frame, an unusual for this, which i think is. What makes it so interesting. We have a big uaw strike right now. Weve seen a ceos compared to an Assembly Line worker salary at. Some, you know, in the sorry, in the in the car auto industry. Thank you. And, you know, thats a very blatant obvious example of not fair, but there are different kinds of fairness that you look at. Can you explain a little bit what you sort of how you think fairness and is a sort of framing point . Yeah. I mean, i think whether you look at it in our politics, Campaign Finance, etc. , if you look at it in our economy and whos benefiting the vast dividends of new technologies, etc. , if you look at it in the remaining barriers that particularly for women and people of color again, my my claim here is not that the social and Economic Justice arguments persuasive, but they arent persuasive enough people and believe that tackling those challenges will make america stronger in the world and better able to compete in the 21st entry. And so what im trying to do is, is make the case that actually taking fairness in our economy, our politics, our society, taking on those challenges of fairness make us stronger in the world. And part of that is updating you say this a couple times updating social contract. Yeah. And do that by creating a more competitive marketplace. Yes. I mean, what what are the other prescriptions in . We that by investing more in people and having having there be an expectation . I think it is reasonable for people to to say, i am sharing a society with my fellow americans and guess this is also a point that i make several times in the book is that theres a fundamental choice that we all have to make, which is like, are we going to stay this together . You know, if not, then like i think i mean, thats a terrible choice to make, but if were going to stay at it, stay in it together, then my success depends on success. It is is not a libertarian ideal of kind of 17th century feudal farming, where you can kind of be on the land yourself and it doesnt much matter whats happening. Three farms away when im a coder it matters whether or not i am embedded in a system where there are other coders who can or i can teach. Younger coders or learn from older coders. I mean, you have to have for these for for the jobs of the future they are collective of jobs in the sense that they benefit from network of people who have those talents skills. And so we we have to recognize that, you know, that we are all going to depend, i think, increasingly on how other americans faring for even even as we look at our own success, however we define that in our journey, you know, is the last chapter you were reading, reading this book suddenly had this thought maybe z is going to solve i mean, gen z seems, you know, theres a great unionization effort across the country. There are climate activists. Mckibben just wrote a great piece about, you know, the kind of Energy Behind climate march recently in new york. Theres just a lot more to work life balance, a quality of life, fair wages, fairer workplaces. And i mean, if you think channeling gen z, im flattered because ive felt so hip. But but you have that much older. No, i just i mean, that seems be where there is a lot of energy thats looking at things different thats not sort of accepting the status quo. I think thats right. I mean, you know, brian and i were talking earlier about whether, you know, the degree to being an institutionalist affects the way we think about things. Do you think youre an institutionalist. Yes. I mean, i used to say that i was an idealist. And brian corrects and says, youre not an idealist. Youre an institutional. So, yeah, i mean, i accept the correction, okay. Because i think, you know, were of certainly people whove worked in government, have been a certain generation, were pretty. But im gen zs kind of like having different jobs and different career paths and theres just kind of a less rigidity maybe that might allow for looking at these questions differently or another or another or another way of looking at looking at that is that there it is normal as generational change happens for people to examine institutions and think about what parts want to preserve and and what what parts need to be changed . And i think we are for a host of geopolitical economic, social reasons going a moment that is an inflection in how people think about, the way that society should be organized and governed. And i think that can be a good thing if we decide to make it a good thing. Yeah. I mean its the same point were making about democracy. Yeah. If democracy didnt have laws. It wouldnt get any better. Yeah. Because we wouldnt know what to work on. No, i, i get that identity. You say, this is the toughest test and you talk about the need for a thin, common american. That doesnt supersede other, but it somehow galvanizes, brings people together. And i was just thinking about this. The degree to which Party Affiliation and partizan affiliate is so prevalent for example i think it wasnt that long ago that when there was a story in the in the news media about a judge handing down an opinion or weighing in on something we didnt know who appointed the judge and we didnt know what political affiliation the judge might or might not have. And we certainly didnt think it was going to influence the judges. The judges judgment. Yeah. And now, you know, every every news story says, oh they were appointed by obama. They were warned about, you know, bush. They were appointed by whatever trump and then suddenly we go, oh, my god means this judge is definitely in this mold. And is how this case is going to come out. I mean, we were, you know, those of us who were not on the trump wagon were like fretting over eileen cannon in florida. And, you know, reveling in tonya, chucking. I think so you are. I think, objectively, right, that especially in the last ten years and really in the last five years, people as Political Party affiliates and to the extent that they have won and i should note that a large a growing number of people are choosing not identify with either of the two main political parties, which well see how i mean, well see whether that continues. But Party Affiliation has in many cases become quasi religious. Its not its not it is connected to identity, to an analytical about ideas for how the should be governed. And so and i think thats not ideal because we need a basis for politics that is that is that has some thin layer of identity where we agree that were in the same problems that together dont have to ever agree on how we solve them. We can debate those endlessly, but have to at least agree that were in the same conversation and that the fragmentation is so deep right now, that its not just people have kind of a quasi religious identification with with their Party Affiliation, but but, you know, weve seen basically an epistemic schism where. There are a large number of americans who who have a different truth than, who have different sets of facts than the majority of americans. You know, 30 of Americans Still believe that powerful democrats were a child sex ring in the basement of a pizza parlor. I mean, its also in politics and process is a different its a different sex is. It true. Its a different world. And its hard. You know, i say i have a line in the book where i say, like, you know, when youre debating with your spouse where to put the sofa and your spouse says, thats not a sofa, a duck, kind of where it goes, start lose all import. Right. And this is is a kind of equivalent of that youre okay. Well if thats where were starting, i dont know we get anywhere. I think the identity chapter people may find naive, but basically i to lay out i do believe that it is possible and i think liberal government small l liberal government depends on citizens having some sense of being in a common enterprise together and seeing each other as worthy, being in that enterprise and think we need to have a conversation, we can bemoan the lack of a common identity and theres the ways that we can point to it. But i think we need to have a conversation about what the basis of that could be. And so i put forward one idea for what the basis that could be. I go back to the declaration of independence, not because im an originalist, but because i think the most to me the most beautiful and unusual in there is the pursuit of happiness. Its the thing that isnt in the french declaration. Its not in its its a Truly American thing. And you know, historians have looked at at that term and there have been some who have said, you know Thomas Jefferson. Normally it was life, liberty and property was the kind of standard liberal triad. And there are some there have been some who said, you know, Thomas Jefferson didnt want elevate slavery as and so used the pursuit of happiness of property. I think thats probably giving jefferson too much credit given his own personal history. There are that others who said it was just like a kind of folly that he put it in there, which i think is giving him too little credit, given what we know about, how careful of a writer he was. But i do think the pursuit of happiness is, and obviously its not a guarantee of happiness. And i think its quite clear that what jefferson meant was, not happiness in the sense of being jolly, probably what we today would call fulfilled and i think that saying that we should all be committed to the idea that every american should have the opportunity to make a life of her his own based her his sense of what would be fulfilling is something is a is a premise that we should be there is that should be available to everyone and we should be able to persuade people a reasonable basis for being this project. Its sort of does does call on, you know, the better aspects of ourselves as beings, as leaders should as leaders should. I mean, you know, we need we need some of our leaders to not just bemoan the problems but also say, heres my idea how we can move forward. I guess, like i said, people find it naive. Theres more in that chapter than that, than that, than that idea. But i kind of i was writing it. I was like, you cant just say were missing this thing. You got to say like, for example, what if we tried x and so that its offered in that spirit, not that i think its the only or the best, but its, its its a its an idea. Well i mean, you do talk exactly you talk about you alluded to this that we are in a sort of contest of identities instead of ideas and i do wonder if one of the sort of phrase ideas is that that provide a sort of common identity was a trust and belief in our democratic, you know, that you probably going to get a fair shake. You didnt really need to know what appointed the judge. Yeah. And thats fraying so much. And thats, you know, thats and that but that fraying is because think you know i mean theres theres a theres an idea that america is broken because that fraying and washing i mean washington not done what it needed to do adapt to this moment. There have been numerous failures both in terms of economic adaptation and the enormous consequence is of the unforced error of iraq war that are that are that permeate our politics. Not only the the economic cost, but the human and its because of failures like that that you get a bunch of americans who quite reasonably feel like they are having to divide up a shrinking pie and you do that. You definitely get the incentives for people to go at each others throats. If we would fix the way that we if we would tackle some of these fairness problems, we would create more possibility people to see a win win relationship with their fellow americans and less dysfunction in washington would result. I want to tell people, if you have questions, you should make your way to the front. And i just to ask one more quick thing. Im really interested. Want to talk to you about this a little bit more. If we have time this sort of appropriation of language and words in service of exactly the opposite of what youre youre suggesting in your book. And one is, you know, american true patriot america for, you know, all these slogans that been appropriated by the far right. But you come up this concept of patriotic empathy, its such a nice idea. I mean, but youre but it requires an opposite attitude. Yeah. I mean you, have to have a much bigger heart and have a much more open to be able to do that, to exercise that. And i just dont see where we can have that expectation at this moment in our in our political mean its certainly not on broad display in this moment. But again, i mean, i guess i think we should expect our political leaders to, you know, i guess to some extent, this is part of so somebody could see this and what joe biden said was the of his First Campaign to stay true to to restore the soul of america when you could see it in that. But i think we need more leaders who are out there articulating the that even if we and there are people on the right who who would would who would agree with this that even if we disagreed deeply, that we should try to think where our fellow americans are coming from in their anger or grief or their sense of indignation, etc. , and that there is a virtue in patriotic empathy, which is not to that you have to adopt the views of your fellow americans. But in, in hoping and expecting that on the whole, were all doing our best to try to make it in life and we should be able to listen to each other. Yeah, exactly. Go ahead. So im a retired civil servant, federal civil servant. Thank you for your service. Thank you. And you havent really talked about government and. I grew up during the new deal when government Good Government was doing what lincoln said. Government was there to. Do the things together that we could not do by ourselves and reagan came in in 1980 and said government, is not the solution to the problem. Government the problem. And there has been a huge shift in which now we blame the government for, everything thats wrong with things and, the solutions for, say, child, the reason child care workers dont get paid is because the people who hire them, cant afford to pay them. Theyre poor people and they dont have any money for other poor people like public education, child, child care workers need to be supported by. Public funds, thats the only way theyre going to make a decent living because the who they work for cant afford to pay them anymore. Do you talk about that and how can get things back together . So that government is considered good again . I sometimes think that maybe a book should be called a weve met the enemy and they are us. I think youre going to love book so hope youll read it and yeah i mean think we are i think like the new deal we are at a point where there needs to be a not just tinkering around the edges but a step in the way that we think about how we organize ourselves collectively and move forward as a society. And i think the combination of geopolitical economic changes that were going through, necessity, date, that kind of evolution and a lot of the things that youve just raised are in the book, how do you it happening a bit bit by bit but accelerating as you well. I mean first about first its about having conversations with and trying to do frame the ideas. But, you know, i think going back to what we said at the beginning, i think you know, if you made Real Progress on for instance unfortunately we undid this progress but the progress the Child Tax Credit that was done at the beginning of this administration in the covered bill cut Child Poverty in half in america. One piece of legislation in instantly cut Child Poverty half. Now we let that expire, which is insane. But we you know, and one out of six children in america are growing up poor. Thats thats an amazingly effective piece of legislation that by the when you cut Child Poverty in half, are absolutely adding much more than whatever that cost gdp 20 years from now than. What what youre spending to end Child Poverty if we get some chunks of these these steps together i think they will create positive momentum and feedback loops on each other that will that will help people see value of that. And people will believe government is good when government does good. And i think if you just even look at the investments of this book, youre going to get a lot of concrete examples of what dan is talking about. Well, good luck with that. But thank you for a very illuminating discussion, it was interesting to hear the owner refer to the political morass we are in as depraved. I have not heard that word before. Totally resonates with me. He calls it unhinged book. Yeah i think its irredeemable. Irrevocable what do we i mean, its pretty hopeless. But the thing when pundits talk about the markets, they say, okay, in the 18th century, we had such a problem. We came out of this and then some other part of i mean, people like john meek and all that said that and this too shall pass the problem. Ill be learning. I mean, after two centuries, we seem to be making the same mistakes again. Again. Okay. The and, you know its nice to see that you hopeful most of the people i speak to, including my family, they disgust me. All right. You said youre a pessimist. Get life, you know, all that kind of dismiss the kind of attitude. But honestly we cant call ourselves us. Its a misnomer. We are not the united. We are not one nation. I mean this has been happening for a long time. What a nation is some Common Social values. We dont seem to have that. And my thinking on this is an impulsive thing too. I think mr. Biden, when took office one or two weeks after the worst assault i mean, the insurrection, it was on my birthday. And he was instead of saying, this is not who we are, all that this, you know, glib talk he gave, you should have appointed a Blue Ribbon Commission of the minds in this country going to single problem and say okay we are going to posit to the people if you want to stay, this is what you have to do otherwise lets Start Talking about do i mean its a very difficult task, but im saying theres no point continuing this way. Theres no nothing going to be done for two years. Everyone is impeaching the other party the next time theyll be so thats this thing to you. Shouldnt we do something that i mean, have a Blue Ribbon Commission . I know nixon did Something Like that when he took office. I dont have a lot of confidence in a Blue Ribbon Commission being able to persuade. I mean, i agree with the diagnosis that we have a real challenge i guess i think that the reason that so much of the challenges identity that we have right now the fragmentation of american identity are is deeply connected to fears about the decline of American Power the world to peoples dissatisfaction with an economy that is that is manifestly and a political system that has unfairness built into it to the lack of confidence people have that their children will live a better life than theyve lived. And so i think if we solve start working on solving some of those, it will. That is the way to get to people believing in the possibility an american identity. And one of the things i say in the book is that what were trying to do right now, i mean, you mentioned weve were doing this were having the same problems over and over again. Were actually on the cusp of this is a problem that weve never solved before we never had a united american identity that was open and available to every american, if we solve the identity problem, which i say is the hardest one and its obviously tightly linked, we be the only advanced democracy, the world that really does have an identity that is the basis for a liberal democracy, that is pluralistic multiethnic and where it is available in to any human being on the face of the earth thats never been done before. It would be an enormous moral achievement. Im excited by the prospect that when the last time we tried to make a major shift in american identity as a nation was arguably and we know what happened. Backlash actually took. Its our job to make sure that theres that if theres a backlash right now that we are doing everything we can to argue the alternative course. Yeah, i know. I understand youre not very confident. What weve been conditioned to know, but i see as an alternative to the state, this current state, continuing and we end up in a violent war. Im an institutionalist. I dont think most americans are institutionalist now. And so my skepticism is not on the quality of the ideas, but on whats going to persuade people something can be different. And i think what will persuade that something can be different is for things to be different in their lives. Yeah, sorry. Theres more. I want to make sure we get to the other. An american and military official once famously said that the biggest problem faced by the world is overpopulation. You comment on that that is something that has been a perennial assertion and i dont think has ever been borne out because usually Technology Advances fast enough that actually standards of living on average go up even as world has gone up. So i i dont personally subscribe to any kind of malthusian panic. Think actually theres a much stronger argument. One of the challenges that america faces in the next 50 years is convincing americans that its worth investing in american, americas future by having children. Then then the alternative i think a shrinking population for a country like ours is a much bigger threat than a growing population. In fact, one of the reasons to take another issue that we havent talked about that is usually argued on the left in a social and Economic Justice frame, which is immigration and and how we treat immigrants, we should see immigration as strategic necessity. We we need more americans in order to be successful. So i dont i dont that that as a as a as one of the top threats that we face, we talk about selfinterests of india countries. Do you think the authority that were going to be handing off to next would be global aided by artificial intel. And do you think this is the inevitable shape of things to come . My some of my colleagues are here tonight. I know that my view on ai right now is to be very careful about offering any answers, because we havent actually figured out what the questions are. So i dont know how a. I. Going to affect global governance. I think it is unlikely i do not i do not worry about world government because i cant imagine how we would get there. I think its much more likely that were going to continue to see these kind of messy, complex, what i call constellations of cooperation, but different overlapping efforts where there is International Cooperation of subgroups, of of the International Community that take on the hard work of solving the worlds worlds problems. If there is a global government, i think, theres yeah, we just have time for a couple more. All right. Im just to ask about to lose our right to next the last couple of questions and then im going to end with a question. Thanks for coming. So im sort of like a bush 41 conservative, very moderate, and im a sort of im a lost, lost, like homeless. Yeah jon meacham, structurally inspirational and grown up, but do you think we have to do to bring that party back to the center . It even possible. And also, you talk fairness. Do i look at like a governors job, like bill haslams in tennessee, like do think conservative thought has any role to in sort of this conversation of how to create a better economy . I mean, conservative thought is arguably the foundation of liberalism, of political liberalism. I mean what what what is thought of as classical conservative thought is missed is strangely discussed as the foundation of liberalism and because of the way that we americans use conservative liberal. That can be very confusing. But yes, thought has a role to play in the National Debate and absolutely whether you are a democrat or a republican personally you should want to be a strong and respect respectable alternative opposing party because thats how we get good debates over ideas. We want democracy to be a contest of ideas, not a contest of identities. And it, you know, every democrat has an interest actually having a Strong Republican Party that is that is offering the best ideas it can come up with for how to how to address our common challenges. So i absolutely think theres there is there is a a need for or a value in having people who are define themselves as being conservative in a National Debate. And i dont know how i dont know what the path is for. The current republican party. I mean, i offers got to lose a lot i well and that is how parties traditionally change is that you learn that at the ballot box and so i think over hopefully lessons will be learned. Thank you thank you thank you. So i live at the epicenter of that identity crisis youre talking about. I live in rappahannock in virginia, where my next door neighbor just put up a flag that trump is our president flopping over a road where talking about the politics ization of even the lowest ranks of government where 7000 people county and our board, one of our board of supervisors participated in the january 6th event and some of us called for his censure. He brought out 100 people, some of them armed, took demand of First Amendment resolution because all he was doing was going less than a donald trump. Give us a of a lesson on civil discourse or, whatever. So sorry, but and i think a big part of the problem that we need to is rural. We can talk about liberals and republicans and democrats and all that. But were losing it if we want to try to build a better country in the rural areas. Thats partly because, frankly think both parties have screwed working people the last 20 or 30 years. The farm bill, 85 of it goes to food stamps, most of it the city, 14 plus percent goes to big ag, less than 1 goes to small rural development. And so i guess thats a long winded way of saying how can we address all of these issues without addressing the fundamental one . And that is folks outside of these fancy big cities and, bookstores dont buy any of this because theyve screwed out the wazoo for a long time. Yeah. I mean, again, i think we are i agree with you. We are at the end of what i would say is a 40 to 45 year long experiment with the idea that if government pulls and just let the markets determine things, everything will work out. It hasnt worked out. And were going to need to change the way we things. And until we make our economy more fair and obviously rural areas are feeling in many ways the kind of the threat of consolidation and the effects of of economic changes even more with less with less ability to dynamically respond. Urban areas are so its acute in rural areas. And until we figure out how to address that we will not have people in rural areas in the idea government can do good things. And so we have again its its not that our government is broken because the American People broken. The American People are broken because. Our government hasnt. I mean American Comedy is broken am it. Why is broken . The comedy is doing great because you know the situation is so bad its because we havent adapted we havent adapted to the changed world we live in and we can still adapt to late. Yes, always. But can still adapt. And if we do i think well see a changed america that both parties have been responsible for this. I didnt in rural i say that in the book yeah this is not a this is not a democratic platform. This is this is a i, i studiously tried to avoid talking about politicians. I maybe mentioned a couple of times maybe mention trump a couple times because i couldnt say what was trying to say without saying it. But this is not meant to be a partizan tone. I think my tone has somehow rubbed on him unintentionally. I just want to end. Have to end, unfortunately, but i just want to end on a hopeful note, because do think you are hopeful . You do say what is our alternative . What is what choice do we have . But to try to do some of these things. But there are actually concrete things that you cite in the book and youve mentioned the childcare tax credit few minutes ago. So leave us with one really good thing thats happening or one thing that you can see really being passive. So one concrete example, i think, and im using this one because i kind of got scooped by the theres a real challenge with writing a book that is effectively about the zeitgeist because. You have to write it really quickly. Otherwise the zeitgeist changes before the book comes. And one example of this is that you know theres an entire chapter on investment and then wouldnt you know congress that cant do anything goes and passes the inflation reduction. And theres like this massive hundreds of billions of dollars being invested in the green energy transition, which is exactly kind of thing that we should be doing. And not only the scale of it, its the sustained, the sustained nature of it the fact that it is commitment to spend tens of billions of dollars a year, investing america, investing in american jobs, investing in american adaptation to a changed economy and change energy economy. And to do that over ten years, those kinds of long term bets are the kinds of things i shouldnt call it a bet. Those tiny kinds, long Term Investments or commitments are the kinds of things that our politics is increasingly unable to do. Partly because of the back and forth of partizan nature, where one party comes in and repeals everything that the party did. You know, people forget that. But for john mccain, who wouldnt have health care, we would not. We would have ripped up the. Yeah, millions and millions of americans have health care because of the aca. And not only that we had already gone through there were there were costs associated with adapting to the Health Care System as the we would have thrown all of those those costs have all been lost and we would have reverted to system where fewer people had health. But for one one republican senator and and so you know we got get out of this habit of repealing what the other party does no matter what youve got assess i mean i would blame democrats. I think there was one progressive thing that donald trump did and he did it out of spite. So i his motives were wrong. But repeal the state and local tax deduction, which im sure is very popular, actually with this crowd. But but a hugely regressive tax for rich people. Broadly speaking. And and theres no reason why we should be repealing the the the repeal just because the republicans did it. We we are we the current. There should be no there should be no push on the face of it to just automatically undo what the other party does. And if you do, you cant solve the problem like the climate challenge, because the climate challenge takes a decade, two decades, three decades of commitment. And if our country incapable of making decade commitments to major policy challenges, we will not be successful. So thats an example of a place where weve been maybe found an unlikely that i think is the kind of thing that we have to do more and. There are little and locals. I mean our governor in maryland was more has has proposed and then got the legislature to pass a service for high school graduates. Biden is doing the climate conservation corps, if thats what its called. But Something Like so there are these little signs of, things happening. The wheels justice seem to be turning kind of mean. There are yeah. And actually im glad you raised that. And i know we to end but i do talk a little bit about National Service in the book and i you know, one of the points i made is that i, i wrote my dissertation about effectively conscientious so im committed to the that we should not have a draft. But one of the things that we lost when we lost universal military service is that one half of our country it happened to be the half the because of sexism is the most powerful half had a common where they were working alongside somebody from another state who might have they were a city kid working to somebody who grew up on a farm, etc. And if you want to ask, how do you get patriot act empathy, right . Thats part it is by knowing something about each other and and you know theres a whole conversation about the collapse of news and all the rest of it. But but i think that im about innovations in National Service, in part because i think it can provide us a basis for knowing and for knowing each other better. Yeah. And, and being more empathetic to people dont share our other aspects very well. I cant believe weve talked all this time. We didnt hit on a really major topic, which it was of course part of what youve worked on in government, which is human dignity, the quest for human dignity. We didnt get to that we didnt get to immigration. See, theres a lot of stuff this book we didnt get to the book. Great. I really hope you all read it. Its so smart, but its so clear and its a road map. I mean, i think sure maybe parts of it are naive. Wouldnt even say that. Idealistic. But we got to grasp for something. Dan does a great job of giving us the path forward. So thank so much for coming. Thank all of you for coming. There are copies of the upfront if you need, you know, Holiday Gifts or friends and neighbors who read this. And then well be right here signing the book for those of you who would, like, signed copies. So thanks you all so much. Thank