Transcripts For CSPAN2 1909 20240703

Carrie sowden is the director of archeology for the National Museum of the great lakes. This is not her first time in erie. We actually learned about her when she was speaking here about the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald before. Shes an amazing speaker. She has dove and Research Vessels all over the world, but she spent the last 17 years really focusing on wrecks here in the great lakes. Shes a graduate of texas a m, us marine archeology program, which is really the preeminent Maritime Archeology program in the country. So were were thrilled to have carrie and as a sort of extra announcement for all of you, as was cspan and that contact got us and heard carrie was presenting and theyre actually covering this evenings lecture to be broadcast nationwide. So great exposure for this topic and. Carrie could talk about a lot of different topics, but we chose this one because its its really unbelievable. How does a 338 foot long steel ship sink in the most shallow of the great lakes and just vanish, never to be heard of again . With that carrie sowden. All right. Thanks. Now, just because were on cspan, no streaking anywhere. Okay. Enough with my funny. Thank you so much for having me here. Im very excited to be here. I really enjoy talking about all shipwrecks. But the marquette bessemer number two is always kind of a fun one if youve ever seen me before. I always start with an outline because, you know, just in case you start to get tired and you think of were only on the marquette bessemer history, i still got a ways to go where you think totally. Oh, one of the myths ology. Yes, were almost done anyway, this is where were headed. We talk a little bit about lake erie shipwrecks, talk about the history of car ferries, the marquette bessemer number two itself. What happened december 7th . I have december 7th here. Its really december 7th through the 10th, 13th. And 10th, 11th and 12th as well. 1909, the aftermath of that discovery in quotation marks. And we can talk some more about that and a little bit of mythology surrounding this very particular wreck here. And in lake erie. One of the things that i dont think people realize is that lake erie is home to probably close to 2000 shipwrecks and accidents, but doesnt mean theres still 2000 out there. That means 2000 accidents happen. Some of them may have been raised and used again. They may have been dynamited as a hazard to navigation and any any number of reasons. You know, the the best guess is that theres probably some 600 or so still out there. This map is not perfect. It is based on different sources, which is why you do see bundling around long point and around erie and then obviously around the islands. Yes. Where you have those places, you do see more shipwrecks, but theres certainly more across the lake itself. So theres a lot out there and theres a lot still to be found, but probably. One of the most famous still to be found is the marquette bessemer. Number two. Okay, well, what does that mean to find something . Well, we have to talk a little bit about archeology and what that is and what that involves. And thats the study of shipwrecks. The study of a site and learning what happened, how it happened and who it affected by that happening and that could run anywhere from doing side scan sonar surveys. This is an image of the dundee, which i will admit most of my images are from ohio waters, but thats where im from. A 214 foot schooner barge that sank there. And then you go down and you start doing and creating site plans. You run a baseline down the middle and you start taking notes and you measure things underwater, and within the end you end up creating a complete site plan of what the of what the vessel looks like. This is what we want to do. That being said, you have to find it first. So lets talk a little bit about car ferries before we do that. This is always my favorite little part. I enjoy history. Im really great at it, but sometimes im not. Dates are not always my best friend, so i like to set a little bit of context. The shipwreck happened in 1909, so what else is going on in 1909 . Well, in march of 1909, taft becomes the president. In august, the indiana motor speedway opens. And on december 4th, the Montreal Canadiens are founded. So you get a little bit of a political and sports history here today as well. Who knew. So lets talk a little bit about car ferries. I will admit i am not from this area. I didnt know a lot about. And when i first came up here and i heard the phrase car ferry, i thought it was something, you know, you drove your car on and sailed across the lake. But no, you actually trouve Railroad Cars on to. So curfews are obviously developed with the development of the railroad as a way to cross water with trains, making it a much more direct line of transport taken from especially cross lake area. They were big across lake erie and then north south and then big across Lake Michigan, eastwest. So that you dont have to go all the way around. Early car ferries looked like this one up here. This is called the lansdowne. Its built in 1884 as a side wheel steamer. It was a canadian vessel, 294 feet long. Later, vessels looked more like this, which is kind of what the marquette bessemer number two is. Well have look like this is the pier marquette number 20, built in 1903, 338 feet long, kind of almost exactly like the marquette bessemer. Number two, buffalo. Get to that in a minute. A lot of these car ferries, especially during this this early 1900s, carried basically they basically carried coal north and wood pulp south, at least on lake erie. They carried probably Different Things on Lake Michigan and other places. But this is this was sort of their main their main point. Now, the company that were talking about is the marquette bessemer dock and navigation company. This company came into being in 1903 with the combination of the pier market in the bessemer and erie lines kind of coming together into one. So they create the marquette bessemer line, along with this melding of these two lines. Theyve also acquire the lake erie in Detroit River broke railway. So when were talking about these rail car ferries, these tend to be associated directly with the railroads. And so if you put something on a certain Railroad Line and you want to, you know, in central ohio and you want to get it to canada, it going to follow it up to, you know, wherever, lets say continents as were about to talk about coming up, put it on a railcar here thats owned by the same railroad company, ship it across and then keep going. What were looking at here is actually the marquette bessemer number one. It wasnt a real rail car ferry in the sense of the ones we were just looking at. But it could take rail cars on on deck. It was built in 1903, 241 feet long. One of the things i just like to point out, because theres so much great lakes history, but it is also and like tied in together the marquette bessemer number one was designed by a very famous boat designer on the great lakes called frank kirby, who actually also had designed the lansdowne. And he designed the marquette investment number one. He was also very famous for designing a lot of the what you might call palace steamers from the early, early 1900s, the sea and b, the city of cleveland, other vessels like that. So this is all what were getting up to is in 1905, american shipbuilder ing created for the marquette bessemer company, the marquette bessemer a number two 338 feet long, 54 feet wide, with a depth of hold of 19 and a half feet. It had a triple expansion steam engine that could produce 2280 horsepower from four different boilers in under 175 pounds of pressure. The vessel itself had four tracks on it and can carry 3030 railcars. And so thats the extent of our boat. And youll notice again, it looks a lot like the marquette 20 that i just showed you that was built in 1903. They have the exact same measurements. They look very much the same. Unlike the marquette bessemer, a number one which took railcars on his deck. This all the railcars here go underneath the deck and they pull on on the back and well talk about that in a couple of minutes. They pull them in on the back and then the boat takes off and then backs into the dock. And then they take them off the same way they brought them on. So we have this boat. It sailed fairly on remarkably for four years until we get to december of 1909. The storm in december of 1909 was one of the worst that had been seen on the great lakes since the turn of the century. It was almost as bad as whats known as the montauk, a storm, which was in 1905, which stranded off of 400 foot freighter just off of duluth in like no feet of water. But it was it was in december and it was so cold that half the crew froze to death on the back end of the vessel, even though you can see the wound from it. So but thats a very powerful storm. The storm were talking about now in 1909 is just as a powerful were not only losing the marquette bessemer number two. Oh, did i give that away already . Sorry. Only losing the marquette bessemer number two. But in the storm, theres four other losses. You have the vessel clarion, which burned near healy point and 15 of the 21 crew members died. And so this is the clarion up here. And then down below is the w. C. Richardson name, which struck a reef off buffalo while carrying flax seed 14 of the 19 men on board survived and they were rescued by another ship called the William Payne on december ninth. So this is a storm thats fairly long lasting. I know i put december 7th here, but this is a storm that last since the eighth and ninth and to the 10th of december. By december ninth, there were two other barges that sank as well on lake erie. So again, theres four vessels plus the marquette bessemer. And to those five vessels that sank on lake erie in this one storm, thats thats a pretty spectacular loss for for just a single storm, especially on a lake our size. The marquette bessemer number two ran a fairly regular route from connie out to port stanley. The vessel on on december 7th, the last day that we see it left the dock in connie out at 10 25 a. M. Theyre headed down the river. And thats what i always find this to be kind of funny. Its its like the i was imagine it to be like the old movies when you see somebody chasing a train. Wait, wait. Its apparently here comes this guy, albert weiss of the Keystone Fish Company. Wait, wait, wait. So the marquette bessemer two pulls over at another dock and albert weiss climbs on board. So and these guys are going to put the carriers railcars. Well, they also as a way to as a side way to make money, would carry some passengers usually guys like albert weiss, who are traveling for business or Something Like that, they wouldnt really only carry passengers that are on a personal, you know, vacation or anything, but more probably for business. And so mr. Weiss was just one of these guys. He climbed on board. He was the treasurer for Keystone Fish Company. Now we have a couple of different legends here, and were going to talk about legends throughout tonight as well. Theyre one of the legends as he was carrying pay for the men station. And in canada for for the fish company and then the other other side of it is, no, he was carrying even more money than that because the Keystone Fish Company wanted to purchase another fish company in the port stanley area and that he was possibly carrying upwards of 36,000 in cash and that today would be almost 1,000,000 if not 1,000,000. So and then but anyway, so he albert was gets on and at 1043 the the marquette bessemer number two leaves leaves dock for the last time it should have i should say this it should have arrived if it left at 1030, it should have arrived in port stanley at 3 30 p. M. That same day. So just, you know, 5 hours. That was the trip. Thats all it really took. Now, this trip between connie out in port stanley was the very basic regular route that they ran almost all the time. Its interesting that, you know, Historical Records are never fully correct. Theres a report that said the market for number two had 30 railcars, of which 26 had coal. And we said coal goes north, would come south. So 26 with coal, three with structural steel and one with steel casings. Another report had the bessemer, the market best for number two, overload it with 32 cars of coal. Theres also a question of how many people were actually on board. Theres, again, depending on what you look at, theres anywhere from 30 to 38, even though, you know, by this point youre in 1909, they still didnt keep really good records on land of who all was on board. Theres plenty of stories all throughout the great lakes where theres a an accident and and, you know, the newspapers come out and say, okay, these these 20 guys die. And then three days later, they have to amend it because it turned out one of those guys got off the boat and he was actually still alive. So thats why we just arent entirely sure how many people are are not on the on the vessel in 1909, marquette, bessemer, number two is under the command of Robert Macleod. And it is the first made is is actually his brother, john macleod. Roberts been on the lakes most of his life. He started as a cook on schooners in the 1870s, achieved his first captaincy in 1892, and actually, just to kind of, again, tie it all back together, he was the captain of the marquette bus number number one during its first year on the lakes. So hes had a history with this company. Hes been with this company for quite a while. And this is thats who were looking at up here. And so i will just point this out, because now you can kind of see the stern of these vessels and thats just, you know, its this big open area and you literally just drive the railcars on, take off, and then you just drive them right back off and i just kind of remember this because were going to talk a little bit about what this stern looks like and what the plans were for the vessel between 1909 and 1910. But lets Start Talking about what we do know that happened that night. As i say, that almost nothing. Theres quite a few differing stories. There are people off port stanley who said they saw it off shore at about 6 p. M. , headed west, possibly to try and get shelter in rondo late, late, late in the evening. Residents of cognac reported seeing and hearing the marquette bessemer number two. So maybe the vessel has gone to the canadian side and cant get in and has now come back to its home port and calling out also at that same around that same time, the steamer black, which we could see here, was at anchor at midnight iconia and saw the marquette bessemer number two headed east at 1 30 a. M. Cognac residents say they heard a whistle. Now, that being said, a canadian customs officer also said he heard a whistle off of port stanley at 3 a. M. Residents of port bruce said the whistle was so close they thought the vessel had grounded, but then it had finally faded away by 5 a. M. So again, when you look at these sightings and listenings, it seems like maybe the vessel went back and forth across lake erie a couple of times. Theres a lot of possibilities of what may or may not have happened. Theres always going im going to say theres a lot of possibilities, a lot today. Someone had reported that the light at port stanley entrance was out and therefore in the middle of this major storm, or kept bessemer number two is just not comfortable going in without that lit guidance, you know, sort of a lighthouse, but a guideline. And maybe thats why he turned around and went back to cognac. We do know that in october 1909, captain mcleod had complained about taking seas over the stern. Imagine you can see the back of that, he complained about taking seas of the stern because theres no gate doors on this gate. Doors were new for a car. Ferries. I mean, this was not an unusual way to build a car ferry without gate doors. But by 1909, theyre starting to realize it was something that was needed. Mcleod had kind of complained to the company that he took so much water over the stern at one point that it almost put the boilers out. And so the plan was in the winter of 1909, 1910, they were going to put they they were going to put the the gates across the back and hopefully make the ship a little bit safer. Heres just another fact. Again, we keep talking about how this is a multiday storm. The marquette bessemer number one left cognac at 6 p. M. That same evening and wasnt heard from for two days. So its when you start reading. Some of the reports, you know, especially and you know, the eighth and the ninth and the 10th, theres like, well, the, you know, the company is hoping that the marquette bessemer number two is, you know, hiding behind long point or there has been reports of multiple vessels, you know, sheltering down on the western lake erie and the islands area as a way to shelter altogether. And marquette bessemer number two is there. And so theres lots of different reports over lots of days. One of the things that was fairly certain was by december 10th, vessels were starting to see debris. This is the william b diavik. It sailed through a debris field but didnt stop. Nobody really knows why, i think. Well, who knows why, but they they did mention that the debris had the green color of the marquette bessemer line. So any of the debris that they had had green paint, they did see this west of long point. But this is up to possibly two days after the sinking. Any of these things could have floated for miles and miles and miles. That doesnt mean thats where it sank. It means thats how far its floated in, you know, upwards of 48 hours by december nine and ten, theyre starting to realize, okay, the vessel hasnt shown up. Its not behind along point. Its not out in the islands. We really need to start taking a look at that. And so the fish tug, Commodore Perry was sent out from here from erie to look for the vessel. And on the 11th and about 15 miles off, erie found a lifeboat with nine bodies in it. The vessel the boat was almost full of water and to be as cautious as possible, the men on the fish tug very carefully. Put a line to the lifeboat and tugged very, very, very slowly back into erie because they didnt want to bother anybody. That was that was there. There had been another vessel out with them and so it had it went faster back into erie. And by the time they pulled in, there were a thousand people at the dock waiting for them. There were nine men, as i said, in the in the lifeboat. The had all had life jackets on but were very poorly dressed for the weather. The supposition is, is, you know, possibly this happened later at night. And when it was actually going down, it was unexpected. They didnt have time to put on their heavy clothes, their outer clothes, their wool and whatever they might have needed to be spending time in the water. But they did have their life jackets on over the years. A lot has been found. There was quite a bit of wreckage found near port burwell, including one of the other lifeboats. There were four lifeboats on the marquette bessemer, a number two of which two were two were found over the course of the next six or eight months. Five additional bodies were discovered throughout 1910, including somebody came up, came ashore on port colburn and long point, the first mate, john mcleod, was discovered in buffalo in a water intake in april. And the captain Robert Macleod was actually discovered by the in Niagara Falls and he didnt go over the falls. But at the the energy station there, he came in there and they were able to recover him. He was specifically identified due to paper, the pieces of paper he had in his pocket, which include his included his charter to be the captain in the marquette bessemer. Number two, as well as two checks that he had written. And i found this to be kind of surprising 125 in cash. Let me tell you, in 1909, thats a lot of cash to be carrying around in your pocket. I think. But so, larry. Oh, theres. Yeah, captain macleod. His body was weathered, obviously, there is some discussion. Well, were going to get to that in a minute or two. I wont go too far down that road yet. So we have all of this debris in these bodies washing up all over shore, all over the lake, making it almost impossible to pinpoint where the shipwreck might be. The winds from this storm are all over the place and are sightings again from port bruce and port stanley to erie and cognac to long point to down here in buffalo and so how do you even begin to take all of this information and try and think about where the marquette bessemer and number two could be . Its its just kind of its its a little mind boggling. And and then in todays world, like because theres no survivor, theres nobody to give us any information. The only thing we know for a fact is that they left connie out at 1043. Thats the only fact that we have. It is interesting. The company is itself moves on, decided to replace the marquette bessemer number two with a new vessel which they called the marquette bessemer. Number two, nobody really knows why. Theres some thought that, you know, people would like forget that the first marquette bessemer or number two had been lost. But would you are naming boats . Marquette bessemer number one. Marquette bessemer number two, when the next one obviously be marquette bessemer. Number three, i dont know. I think they were hoping to try and save face and sort of let people forget that theyd had this this terrible tragedy and lose the stain of the accident on their reputation. But many people found it fairly disrespectful. I will tell you, it also makes researching very difficult because youre looking at something, anything youre reading about the marquette bessemer number two, and youre like, is it the first one of the second one . And everybodys like, no, its number two. And im like, yes, but theres two of tm. The big difference you can tell on photographs is the second marquette bessemer and number two has this upper pilot house. I dont have a comparison picture, but if you remember the other one, it the our our first one just ended right here did not have the second level pilot house. So thats kind of one of the things that you can tell the difference. The vessel was launched on in september of 1910. I also want to kind of point that out. Ten months later, they had this 338 steel behemoth built and launched after having this terrible disaster. It had a quite a history of accidents and mishaps. December 10th, 1910. So basically almost one year to the day it ran aground. September 11th, 1911, it collided with the m. A. Bradley march 28th, 1912, lost six propeller blades. Im assuming thats off two different propellers. January 24th, 1913, lost three propeller blades. February 11th, 1913. While casting off the wash from the prop damage to scout schooner. So now its not just damaging itself, its now damaging other boats as well. September 14th, 1914, the main steam pipe burst. January 20th, 1916, march eight, 1916, april 29th, 1916. All collisions, you know. So its its got quite a quite a life there. My favorite piece of this that i think is really funny is when the vessel is finally retired, i think its retired about 1932 and in 1937 its turned into basically a dance party boat in cleveland outside the great lakes exposition in 1937, in cleveland. So, you know, if you went down to the exposition, you want to go dancing, you got on board this boat. But anyway, so thats sort of where the company went and the marquette bessemer company. Company was around for quite a while and it was fairly successful even despite the loss of this one vessel. That being said, there are plenty of families that were never the same again anywhere. Like i said, between 30 and 38 families lost a loved one that day and its, you know, something that people still talk about. The mcloud family still lives in the greater connaught area. And ive met the i dont remember if it was his grandson or his great grandson, you know, somebody that was down. And so it was kind of a an interesting thing to happen now over the years, this vessel has been found multiple times. You guys are going, wait a minute, cory, you told me never been done before. Oh, well, thats true. In 1965, a cognac family only claimed to have discovered the marquette bessemer number two in 210 feet of water, which, if you dont know, is the deepest point of lake erie. 210 feet of water. So they supposedly could see it from an aircraft when they flew over it. That being sai they could never actually find it with a boat. So thats our one discovery down here in the eastern basin. We have quite a few more discoveries in the central basin. In 1965. Well, 1965 at one point that is in the eastern bay. So 1975 off port stanley in 70 feet of water. Another find in 1980, another find in 1981, northeast of cognac and 70 feet of water again the night the vessel that they found in 1981 off connie, out here in 70 feet of water, actually turned out to be the shipwreck morata, which was a vessel lost in the 1916 storm. One of the, you know, even though we talk about five vessels sinking here, that vessel had that storm had four vessels sinking, but lost over 50 lives that night. So it is the worst technically the worst commercial disaster. But in 1981, they originally thought they found the marquette number two, but they had found the marina. Now that being said, theres still people finding it. I had oh, lets say ten or 11 years ago. I had a guy come to me and say, oh, i know where it is. I know for sure. And so we kind of believed him and we took two days and went out with him and found a whole lot of nothing you could also there have been rumors all year this year that somebody had found it. And the stories that i heard on the street that again, he showed back up at the site that he thought he had and it wasnt there anymore. So or maybe just wasnt there to begin with. I dont know. This is sort of one of our our big things. And the question is, is can it be found . And theres some really interesting questions within that in terms of what can and cant happen on in lake erie. I mean, you would think using a side scan sonar, which is the process that were looking at here, which use the sonar to take pictures of the bottom of the lake, you should be able to find a 338 foot steel vessel. It should stick out. I mean, dont get it wrong. We are a great lake, but its still the smallest great lake. And theres people out there looking for this and have been since the 1970s, if not before. There are people out there still looking for it. I guarantee you there was somebody out there this week looking for it. And so how are we not finding this enormous vessel . And im not saying this is the answer, because im not saying that it will ever be found. But i will point this out. There was some really Interesting Research done by a group out of cleveland called the cleveland underwater explorers, where they realized a different shipwreck. I want to say the riverside, but i could be wrong about it. But they basically proved that the vessel was actually sitting about 30 feet under the lake bottom. I dont know if you i would assume you guys get them here. And because we certainly get them in cleveland, but we actually have minor earthquakes out in lake erie. And when that happens, you have something they call liquefaction. So like our bottom is in actually sand. Its kind of this mud clay gross stuff. And, you know, think about when you shake that that that becomes kind of liquidy. And so im i do sometimes propose when we talk about how much we can find this is how far under the lake bottom do we think this very giant ship may be . Because, you know, were talking back and forth, especially across that Eastern Central basin area, which is right where these these these minor earthquakes tend to happen. Maybe its just never going to be found because of that. I dont know. Again, i hope somebody proved me wrong some day because i think it would be really cool to see there is some mythology around this shipwreck which is always kind of an interesting thing. Of the nine men that they found in the in the lifeboat, one of them was george smith, who was the steward. And supposedly he had all of his knives with him, im going to say supposedly because this information all comes from a book that was written in like the 1960s and not any information from 1909. So lets just lets throw that out there. Right there, because, you know, theyre poorly dressed, but im going to grab all my knives kind of thing. And then the other piece that goes with this is that, you know, when the captains body was discovered in april or may, the next year, that it was in pretty bad shape and had some cuts on it. Okay, the guys been in the water for how long . Yeah, but there was this really great story about how, you know, theyre going back and forth across the lake. The crew finally mutiny, and the steward was the leader of the mutiny with his knives because they were mad at the captain because he couldnt find a way in. And they got on board the little boat by themselves and they cut up the captain somehow again. Its fun. I dont think it happened, but it was kind of fun. Its kind of a fun little thing to talk about. The other big thing that people like to talk about with the marquette bessemer number two is the money. Albert weiss, how much was he carrying . What was he carrying it for and how much is it worth today . Well, like i said, if he was carrying up to 36,000, which again is one of the stories that could be worth up to 1,000,000 today. Is it in his briefcase . Is it in a safe on board the boat in the captains office . Is it all paper money . Which means if its been underwater for. Lets do some math here. 114 years. Its got. So this is why people have been very excited about about trying to find this for a number for a number of years. My favorite part of the mythology of this, whether you know, like i say, the mythology, my favorite part, all of this is my favorite part because i always think mythology is excellent, is the fact that the people of cognac claim you can still hear the whistle of the horn on really, really treacherous nights. And theres been multiple people that have talked about that and the fact that theyve heard it personally heard it, theyve personally maybe seen a suspect, something dark. You know, those people that live on the lake, something dark that passes by their window, its you know, for each i will say to each their own. So are we ever going to find it . I dont know. Like i said, theres certainly people looking for it. But, you know, this isnt the only one out there. People always talk about what are the holy grail . Whats the holy grail of great lakes . Shipwrecks. People will see this for lake erie for sure. The marquette bessemer number two is the holy grail for great lakes shipwrecks. Theres certainly different ones that can be considered that theres a a northwest flight on june 23rd, 1950, that sank while crossing Lake Michigan and has never been found. And again, thats something people have been looking for for years. Theres my favorite this is another lake erie one, the marine sagar. Its actually submarine that was built in 1851, in october 1853, the inventor, his name was laudner phillips. He brought it over to lake erie to try salvage a safe off a wrecked steamboat called the atlantic again. But were starting to see safe money. Everybodys looking for money all the time. I just i, i just wrote a panel about this for an exhibit he brought to the marine cigar over. He took about he he tested it. It worked great in 30 feet of water. So he gets in and hes supposed to be going to about 150 feet of water, you know, which hes never done before. He gets about halfway down, he starts to leak, says, oh, maybe not. So he goes back up and the rest of his crew, they decide, you know, lets be safe and not put anybody in it. Lets just lower it down and see what happens. Well, it must have continued to take on water, because as it went further down, it became so heavy they couldnt pull it up. And they ended up snapping the rope that they had it on as they were putting it down. So theres this small 40 foot early, early submarine somewhere out in lake erie, right near the atlantic, and keep waiting for somebody to find that one, because that to me is really cool. And then finally, the ultimate og is the griffin. The lasalles first vessel on the upper great lakes that was built in 1679, sank later in 1679. And again, its like the marquette bessemer number two. Like we know it was in green bay on x date because thats when lasalle got off and he said, okay, continue on. And thats the last we know about it. Theres nothing else. And just because this would be one of the earliest this would be the earliest find on the great lakes. Everybody was forgets about lake ontario. There were actually two shipwrecks on lake ontario before the griffen was even built. So but everybody likes to talk about the little gryphon as being the first, but that is truly the holy grail. But i will say yes. Marquette bessemer number two is the holy grail for lake erie. So and thats what i have for you guys tonight. Its. Okay. Theyre going to pass cards out. Lets as theyre passing cards out, i, you know, kind of over arching philosophical for. Okay. You know, back at the beginning of summer, i think, you know, i and probably most people in this audience were just captivate it with what was happening at the titanic wreck tragedy. 2. 0. Why do you think humans have this enduring fascination with shipwrecks . I dont know. Its a question i get a lot. I think we have a i dont want to i dont want to sound morbid, but i think in a very morbid way, we have a lot of fascination with disaster in general just because it, again, things like ship and especially, say, the titanic or you can say it about the Edmund Fitzgerald, too. Things that are supposed to be infallible. Its it really sort of triggers, you know, a want to know why. But then theres also something to be said in todays world especially. You know, ship travel is not something we think about anymore and yet it was a major mode of transportation and for so long. So theres a sort of nostalgia also of trying to under stand what it was like on some of these, whether it was, you know, on the titanic, very fancy. And we certainly had our own fancy, fancy great word. We certainly had our own luxurious vessels here on the great lakes as well that were were passenger vessels that move people around. But i think, you know, whenever you have loss of life, its its always interesting in the best way. I know to put it in this. I dont want this to sound callous. I went to the museum in Oklahoma City years ago about the Oklahoma City bombing. And one of the things i took away from there was a quote in there from, i believe in Southern France where, you know, they have lots of issues with the bass separatists and terrorists and theyre like, if we put a if we put up a museum to every one of these, this wed have them on every corner. And so the sense of like, i dont know if its us as americans that are a little more interested in it or if its just us as who we are in todays world, just sort of this idea of disaster or sort of a follow up to that. Ive never been to one of these shipwreck lectures where the question has inevitably come up because people are curious. So im going to ask because im sure someone in the audience has written it down. What happens in the field of archeology when you find human remains on a shipwreck . Oh, thats actually super easy. Everything stops. No, im serious. I, i, ive looked into this because there were a couple of projects i worked on where we were sort of specifically assuming we were going to find some and yeah, everything stops. You call the county coroner. They have to investigate to make sure it wasnt a murder and then do you know they will arrange for a recovery and then you can continue your project along. I will flat out say i personally have never found any remains and id to keep it that way too, because. Again, to be callous, i dont need my work to stop for a month and a half while i figure it out. So but yeah, its its a if you do it, yeah. Thats what you need to do. So your, your museum has National Museum of the great lakes, formerly in vermilion, now in toledo exhibits. But youre the the archeology wing. So do you do your own dives as a museum . Okay. We have our archeology program, which is a program of one person. So no, i dont do something all by myself. I do a lot of of interaction with other organizations. We have a really great volunteer organization in the state called mass, the maritime Archeological Survey team, which i know theres something similar in the state of pennsylvania passed. I think they stole our name just saying anyway. But like even this summer. So ive done three projects this summer, one with the independent guy, one with the Indiana University of pennsylvania and one with the state of michigan. Archeology as a whole is always a process that involves multiple entities. Theres just we cant you cant do it by yourself. So its its always a collaboration with other people, which i always think is great because it brings in more voices, more abilities. People with with, with different skill sets. And, you know, i can only do so much as a single person, so be able to find all of those other people is a is a really great way to do do that in this exercise. By no means loaded im genuinely curious you were thoughts in your experience working with other marine sanctuary areas on the great lakes and you know, is going through a process and a review right now has that from from your observation. But a good thing for communities. Is it detrimental . What do you think. Youre right. That is a loaded question. Lets put it this way. Net positive, absolute 100 for sure. Net positive, theres always going to be some negatives. But is it a net positive . Absolutely. I think the work that theyve done up at thunder bay in lake ontario and by country at lake huron is fantastic. The work theyre starting and i say the work theyre starting in Lake Michigan on the wisconsin one, its been going on for years and years and years through the state of wisconsin. Theyve really laid the framework for the National Sanctuary thats going in there. And then the third one, i think i said, is going in. Oh, i said to somebody else earlier is going in to lake ontario, which again, if nothing else, it brings awareness. I mean, okay, im assuming you guys all kind of live here. You have an awareness of what the great lakes are and what they do. But i got to tell you, when i got my job up here, im not from the great lakes area. I remember my uncle said even have boats up there and he was serious. And then, you know, like i have my best friend came in to visit me and she flew into cleveland and i took her up to the water and she says, well, wheres canada like . Thats what im saying. So i think these National Sanctuaries can bring a better awareness and understanding of our inland seas, of our, you know, of our great lakes and what it is that we have that we give to the development of this this country in canada as well. And how much how important we are is in terms of resource, because i dont think people realize the resources that have whether they are historical or geological or just the fact our freshwater and what we can do with that and all the Raw Materials are coming out of this area that ship so much easier and cheaply on boats than they do on railroads. Sorry. Ill get off my soapbox now. Weve got a ton of questions here. Oh, im ready. Can rapid fire. Okay. Someone would like to know if there were any other parts of the ship that were found besides the lifeboat, for example, any of the railcars. So, no, theres no railcar. As i did mention, the William Davis kind of went through some debris. They didnt really say exactly what the debris im thinking. Thats it. Im assuming its more deck lightweight debris. Im going to assume the railcar is are down there with it. They dont the only way they wouldnt be is, you know, if they had you know, if it tips maybe stern first, they might have rolled out. But again, theyre railcar ferries full of coal. Theyre going to sink. I think what youre talking about, this debris field that the traffic goes through is, you know, lightweight up or works know, maybe chairs out of a cabin or something along those lines. So not no, theres no other than the the lifeboat and a couple other small pieces of debris. No major pieces have been found. Were going to combine two of the questions. Someone was asking about a weather map that evening of the anomaly and someone else was asking for a recommendation for further readings. So i guess where could one go to read if they were curious about this, the sinking . Well, actually, theres a gentleman out of cleveland who just published a book on the marquette bessemer number taking everything i told you. Plus, you know, a million more pieces of information and putting it kind of all together, which i believe it was selfpublished. And ive come up, i have it in my bag, so ill come up with the name before the end of it first for the end of this, which so thats always a great way if you want to look at, you know, original reporting from the date of which is always fascinating. Again, to read, you know, from the eighth in the ninth to the 10th, this, you know, were still hoping its out there. Theres a really great website that has digitized a lot of newspapers called maritime history of the great lakes dot s. A. So its a canadian website, but you can go on there and search marquette bessemer and or to and read tons of newspaper about what was happening in 1909 and what they were saying they thought may or may not have happened. And again, its its like i said, a holy grail. So its it shows up in lots of different popular shipwreck books about the great lakes shipwrecks. So its not difficult to find. Im sure you can find something here in a library here in erie without a problem, the history center, our Museum Published long gone, what, about 16 years ago, which is has been a popular read for a lot of folks. And im sure in the audience someone wants to put you on the spot and say, where do you think that the marquette bessemer are might lie . What part of the lake. Again, i try and look at it somewhat scientifically. And again, what do we know . We know that it left cognition. We know kind of about where things washed up. So im going to say somewhere in the eastern half of the central basin, and thats a lot of rats, a lot of water to cover. And could be completely wrong. But thats just, you know, based upon the data that ive seen, you know, were not now what people may have heard that night or what people may have seen that night. But were actual pieces floated up. Thats the best ive got, isnt there a few theorists that think that theres ridges and that part of the lake will be wedged in a right . And i talked a little bit about the liquefy on the other side of this. So they didnt get to really is. Yes, there are ridges or like the very deep point, the 210 is actually a big kind of hole. And if its laying in the hole in the right way, you could completely miss it with a side scan sonar just because of how side scan sonar works and the way the the ledge of a hole or ridge might work, it very well could be very much like that. Do you know the sustain and wind speeds, the storm right off of main wave heights, not off the top, really, really big. Really. But i mean, yes. And when you say really big for lake erie, youre talking about 10 to 12 to maybe 15 feet. But and again, this is one of those i just i was just on a project with somebody who had never been on the great lakes and trying to explain to them that, yes, were great, but we are an enclosed body of water. So our waves are act very differently than waves on the ocean. So, i mean, dont get me wrong, all of us ten and 12 feet, ten and 12 foot waves sound enormous, but theyre actually small compared to, say, lake superior, which can get, you know, 20, 25 foot waves. But because were this body of water, the and again, im not a hydraulic just so i dont know the exact terms, but the basically theyre a little bit closer together. Our waves tend to be closer together. So they actually are more dangerous. A ten foot wave in lake erie is way more dangerous than a ten foot wave out on the atlantic ocean. So i guess picking up off of the the wave question as well, and this would be theorized if you were, you know, us specifically with marquette bessemer, but in general when ships are loaded with, whether its railcars or automobile vehicles and they get into rough seas. Is it often a contributing factor to the sinking if theyre not properly secured to have the rolling of the cars . Absolutely. I mean, there are people that say thats certainly a possibility. Again, we dont know because nobody survived live. But it certainly is very, very, very possible that, you know, theyve done enough rolling that you know, one of the cars jumps the rails and now has landed against the side. And so now you have, you know, weight against one side. And as your water is coming on and again, its all just sort of building on top of each other to get to that final horrible end. So but again, we we dont know what happened. So its kind of all speculation, but certainly railcars could come off the rails very easily. Not very easily, but in seas like that, very easily. Go with that. The the final question that ill ask its this is related to the two of them folks are interested of some of the specific technologies that have been used to look for it and someone specifically asking about magnetic anomaly detection and could that be used to find out still show. The quick answer to whoever is. Yes, i think it can. So theres a bunch of different ways to look for shipwrecks. The most used way in todays world is side scan sonar, which we talked a little bit about that takes a lot of time. You do what you call mowing the lawn where you literally just kind of go back and forth at maybe two knots and imagine, you know, on a nice, hot day as youre looking at a computer screen and the sun is behind you. So you need you know, its its not pretty. Lets just go with that. And so i think thats whats been used mostly. Yes, with a 338 foot steel vessel using some form of magnetometer could be a way we we looked into several years ago. They can actually they can actually pull magnets emitters now behind planes. So we looked into that and realized that we didnt have the money to fund something quite like that. But, you know, i that could be the way because even using the magnetometer, its look, you know, obviously looking for changes in the earths magnetic fields, you would still find something, even if its been buried underneath the lake bottom. So i do think that when if and when we do find it, i would imagine magnetometer demand of having to be a part of that that process. Very good. Well, we somehow managed the weight our way through those questions. You dont know this yet, but were going to organize a field trip to your museum from our museum this winter. Excellent. Wed love to take folks to National Museum of the great lakes. Farnham and all exhibits, and certainly a much larger museum if folks have seen it from vermillion. So we cant thank you enough