Transcripts For CSPAN2 The 20240703

Again so thank very much. The first time i met tim smith was 455th anniversary in the Vicksburg Campaign, and i went for the American Battlefield trust along with chris white out to do a series of videos. And so i meet tim on Champion Hill on the anniversary of the battle, which, as a civil war nerd, i was totally out about. Right. But its not that its even worse than that because i packed a whole suitcase of tim smith books for him to sign. So im like, tim smith, so glad to meet you. Sign my books. Yeah. Total fanboy going on at the moment and tim was super gracious and very kind about it and since then we have grown to become friends and he is truly the epitome me of the gentleman and the scholar. But hes the southern gentleman and the scholar. So everything he says is not only kind and polite, but with a really quaint drawl, which is wonderful and he is so gracious with his time. Hes been deeply, deeply invested in his series about the Vicksburg Campaign. If you havent had the opportunity to read those books, theyre absolutely essential reading. They will be the definitive account of vicksburg for decades. But as hes in the midst of that, im working on my little book about the battle of jackson, and hes so kind to take time out and look at the main script and offer suggestions. Hes very constructive about it. He couldnt have been more gracious in his time, even though he was already hard at work at, you know, the umpteenth book that hes on and for that, i will always be grateful as well to help me out on my my quaint little book on mississippi. Tim is the first recipient of the emerging civil war book award. His book, the fort donaldson, again, outstanding. And hes just been writing way through the western theater ever since. I suspect when he finally conquers the west, lincoln will bring him to the east. And having started writing out here, we can only hope that he will grace us with his pen on such things because his work continues to set the standard for civil war scholarship in the west. Today. Let me give you the official biography. Timothy b smith in Mississippi State university 2001, is a veteran of the National Park service and currently teaches history at the university of tennessee at martin. In addition to numerous articles and essays, he is the author editor or coeditor of more than 20 books with several university and commercial presses. His books have won numerous book awards. His trilogy on the America Civil War Tennessee River campaign, fort henry in donelson, shiloh and corinth have won a total of nine and book awards. Hes currently finishing a five volume study on the Vicksburg Campaign for the University Press in kansas and a new study of Albert Sidney johnston for lsu press. He lives with his wife kelly and daughters mary kate and leah grace in adams ville, tennessee, and is my extreme pleasure to welcome him here to the ninth annual emerging civil war symposium at stevenson ranch. Tim smith ladies in. Wow. Thank you, chris. Did my mama tell you to say all that it is a pleasure to be here. Ive always heard about the emerging civil war symposium and wow, im im consider me impressed. This is great. What a wonderful venue. What a Wonderful Group of folks seeing a lot of folks that ive known for a long time. A lot of folks that been on tours and in the past, several people here were just with me last week in a vicksburg. We did four or five days, actually, vicksburg. And there some that are going to be next week in on the grierson drive tour in through mississippi and louisiana. So a lot of folks that are back and forth on these tours, so on. So its good to see all of you for having senior come up and say hello and and well reacquaint. So thank you for having me. This is this is wonderful been looking forward to it for a very long time brag on emerging civil war. Just a minute. Try to help out as much as i can. Its always a pleasure to help out, chris and the folks that run it helped out. You know, reading books and writing for words and so on. And its a pleasure to be involved in anything like that, to be able to to help out just a little bit and so i applaud you what youre doing. Keep up the good work. Ten, what, ten more years now in nine years, i think of the symposium but keep up the good work youre doing. Youre doing great. All right. Lets talk about vicksburg. How many have you been to vicksburg . All right. Thats good. Obviously, im not from around here. You understand that . You you folks talk funny up here for some reason. I dont know what, but vicksburg very, extremely, very Important Campaigning in the civil war. We could probably get in a pretty good argument up here about which is more important, the east or the west. I dont intend to do that. Ed okay. Thats thats good argument closed. Were. The comparison between vicksburg and gettysburg. You throw tullahoma in there, we just heard about bragg and the importance of that. You know, thats pretty good week, july the first week of july in 80. 63 is a pretty good week for the for the union. Not so good for the confederacy in erie vicksburg. I would argue to you the vicksburg is the most comp lex largest and probably the most important of the civil war. Now, im not one of these that says you can pick out one date or one battle or one campaign and says thats it. You know, the civil war was over. Thats when it was decided. In fact, i was thinking about this and ive come to the conclusion in particularly dealing with adversity, just. Johnston early in the war, a lot of people say, was the war done in 1862 . But ive come to the conclusion that in a baseball pennant, how many of your baseball how many of you braves fans . Oh, what . I know. Well go one or two. I know. Weve got a phillies fan back there. Sorry. Is he was the last time i saw him. He was wearing his phillies jersey during the october of last year. I think won the world series or played in the world series. But anyway, the the idea that you cant win a pennant in april, in may of a baseball season. Right. You cant win it then. But you can sure lose it in april or may, right . You can dig yourself a hole. President ial politics, you know, were coming up on a president ial election. Pretty soon you cannot win a nomination in iowa or new hampshire, but you can sure as heck lose it in iowa or new hampshire. And i was doing this to somebody and they said, you know, thats like golf. I dont play golf, but you cant win the tournament on thursday, but you can sure lose it on thursday if you dont make the cut. And so thats kind of my view. But if you if i had to say one particular campaign that was actually probably the most important for a number of different reasons. And well talk about that. And obviously, it has a lot to do with Ulysses S Grant. I would go with vicksburg. Of course, i be biased. I wont. I wont argue that point. So the way i want do with vicksburg tonight, right, is to deal with Ulysses S Grant. And well talk a little about pemberton, but well deal with Ulysses S Grant and particularly look at his Decision Making process and the decisions he makes. Eight key decisions that Ulysses S Grant makes in the Vicksburg Campaign. And, you know, were in our day of constant news media and everything coming through a and so on. Notice that the news networks, you know, whichever one you prefer and other people, you know sports sites and so on, theyre going to, you know, top five takeaways from so on. So top eight, so and so that and it helps us in our fast paced world to wrap our minds around, you know, boom, boom, boom, Different Things. And we see this a little bit in literature and this is by no means patterned, but its something similar to how many of you read george bushs president ial memoir. You know, every president writes a memoir in the way George W Bush did. It was to take those ten key decisions that he made in his life, like, you know, stop drinking. And and i think the surge and so on. So he wrapped it around, you know, the major decision. So were going to look at the eight major decisions that Ulysses S Grant makes. And these are military decisions. Were going to talk about military aspects tonight. And actually, this is a takeoff on one of the books that i did several years ago. And ive seen several for people out there. I know you some of you have it, but john was like, you all know john mars, like the the sherman biographer, halleck biographer. We edit a series with the Southern Illinois press on the world of Ulysses S Grant. The whole idea behind this was to after the 32 volumes that john was summoned, published of the grant papers, the idea was to take that knowledge that learned from the published papers and start producing monographs. So we created a new series called the world of Ulysses S Grant, and this is one of the books actually in that series. So its different monographs on various aspects of Ulysses S Grants life. Take a peek, a look. Sometimes you might find something youre youre interested in his diplomacy his worldwide tours, his treatment of native americans. And, of course, theres several several civil war volumes as well. So in that volume, actually, i dealt with a lot of Different Things going on. You know, great military commanders. You dont just concentrate wholly on the military aspects. Itd be nice if you could, but they you know, generals have families that theyre worried about back home. Grant had a wife and children part of the time. His son fred was with him in the in the campaign. But julia and some of the children were were back home. He worried about land sale selling land renting out property different financial things just personal things in terms of his family and worry about his daddy trying to make a book. You know a quick book off of of what he was doing and at the same time and we can all you know somewhat associate with this different people in his family didnt get along. In fact, julia and his father were at each others throats and he read wrote them both the letters and calm down, get along. You know, ive got big things to do here. I need you to really get along while im doing this. So the personal aspects are very important. At the same time that grants conducting this campaign, the political aspects of this, you know, grant is always hes very clausewitz in in nature. He keeps politics in mind much better than than, you know, a sherman or somebody like that. And he realizes, in fact, he says later on, you know, we were all kind of on probation there anyway. And he realizes his leash is pretty thin. Are pretty short here. And if he doesnt doesnt produce something quickly politically, theyre going to be calling for for his head. So hes got political things to to worry about that their economic, personal, the whole thing about the order expelling the in december of 1862. So a lot of Different Things that he has going on in addition to just the military aspects but the military aspects what were going to concentrate on tonight. So lets look at eight key decisions that us grant will deal with in the Vicksburg Campaign and i assume this is whats going to turn my thing here. Okay. This issue always known as actual, quote, affairs, he says, i didnt call a council of councils of war. He did. He just didnt. Immediately he did. But he he would actually make most of own, own decisions. Well look at a little bit of that as we go forward. All right. So lets start out decision number one. If youre taking note, i always get tickled at my students when, you know, im lecturing and going things and so on and you can tell when they kind of space a little bit, you know, but you always say. All right, number one, ever goes down. Every head goes down. They start right. Whatever it is, they dont know what theyre writing sometimes, but they know its important if i say, ari, number one. So all right. So number one, whats the first key decision that grant makes in the Vicksburg Campaign . Well, that is to go capture vicksburg. Okay. I know im underwhelming at this point. Tell me something we didnt already know. Right. But it is actually complicated. Then than that. Grant begins the Vicksburg Campaign outright. Now, obviously there have been been things on back in the summer may, june, july of 1862. But what were talking specifically was grants major Vicksburg Campaign to outright Vicksburg Campaign from about october, late october 1862 to july the fourth, 1863. So you know, the fact that grant decides, alright, were going to have to vicksburg that you know, nothing new. But heres the kicker this should have been done much earlier and so actual decision to start doing it is like a breath of fresh air that actually comes forward and says, all right were actually going to going to do this fact. I would argue to you that the Vicksburg Campaign should have commenced in june of 1862. Whos in command of the western theater in june of 1862, henry dubya. And nothings going to proceed. Henry halleck especially in the summer 1862, when Halleck Court the the last day of may, the United States navy, the Brown Water Navy has moved southward after his victory at memphis on june the sixth, all the way to vicksburg admiral farragut flag. Officer farragut has moved up the river from new orleans. The capture of new there in late april. So all the components are together in may, june 1862, and all they need is a large army palace army from court. But halleck doesnt go in this in view of consolidating what we have gaining decisive. Secure supply lines. All of that by the book stuff, halleck says, no, were going to sit tight and were going to consolidate what we have. And plus, its too hot anyway. You cant cant operate in that climate in the summer, in june and july, well, grant proved them wrong a year later. You can, but halleck sanogo so this should have done actually in june of 62. Now he certainly should have been done in july of 1862, because when halleck is called to washington in midjuly, he leaves grant in charge of the district that hes in, in charge of west tennessee. Instead of elevating up to the western commander and, one commander for pretty much the entire western, which halleck had been harping on, we need a we really need western theater commander out here. What he argued, of course, he wanted himself to be that commander. Obviously. But once he goes to washington, he elevate anybody up to that position that he held. He just lets it go back to the various independent district commanders. So grant is technically still under halleck, although halleck is now many miles away and as a result, grant doesnt have the autonomy or the authority to start the operations on his own. Had he been booted up to that western theater commander, i have no doubt that grant would have going right on. But he doesnt. And as a result, the Vicksburg Campaign doesnt start in july either. Now, whats critical is that in midoctober before october 16th, id have to look back, but october 16th grant is promoted to that Higher Authority where he has autonomy to conduct his own operations. He actually takes command about ten days later, on october 25th and the very next day is branded. He issues orders. Move, go to vicksburg. Were going to take vicksburg. So you know, obviously we start the process of going to vicksburg yeah Everybody Knows grants going to vicksburg but its more complicated just what it seems it should have been done much earlier. But finally, in the fall of 1862, grant start southward and he will actually do things by the book this year, meaning book will have supporting columns secure supply lines will will take significant decisive points and it results in basically to attempts to reach vicksburg. And you see that here. We got a point earlier here. Yeah, it does point um you can see grants Mississippi Central Campaign moving southward the Mississippi Central Railroad through Holly Springs, oxford, down toward waterville valley. The confederates will pull back from these rivers. The cold water, the tallahatchie, the now, uh, back behind the yellow bush river there. And basically stop. Grant will look at that and. Just suck it. At the same time, sherman is southward on the Mississippi River again supporting columns. Theyre supposed to support each other. Theyre too far away to support. But he moves southward along the Mississippi River with the intention of landing near vicksburg and taking vicksburg. Now, what was the result . Obviously, both are failures, as grant himself will be turned back by a couple of calvary raids. Nathan Bedford Forrest will ride around west tennessee breaking railroad bridges on the mobile in ohio when dawn Earl Van Dorn will move northward and hit Holly Springs on the morning of december the 20th. So grants big supply base is destroyed. Grants ability to refill that supply base is destroyed. And so grant has to pull out and decide. The Mississippi Central Campaign is done. No more no more of that. At the same time, sherman has met defeat at chickasaw bow in just north of vicksburg on june or december. The 29th suffers heavy casualties there, and as a result, that attempt is also a failure. So the first two attempts to reach vicksburg, or better yet, really to reach the outskirts of vicksburg, the on the high ground to the east of vicksburg, um, both end in failure. So grants decision. Yes, one number one. Lets go to vicksburg. Uh, but it doesnt really work out in the first two attempts or unsuccessful so that leads us to the second major decision before we talk about that we have to introduce this whole political thing so it would be military but there are some political aspects this and that is one former congressman named mclaurin it who arrives right in the middle of this to take command of the expedition. Vicksburg. Well, grant doesnt like mclaurin. Hes not a west pointer. Hes a, you know, egotistical. And and so on grant thinks and a result they dont get along grant says i cant leave this is important a job as they see is i cant leave to mcfarland and as a result im going to have to take sole command. So what had been two different prongs of the federal advance into mississippi. Will now become one grant will make the decision to make this a one prong advance its in whos going to be the commander that me grant. So in order to supersede mclernon grant makes it. A11 prong basically one one axis of advance movement now mclernon of course and you get into the Vicksburg Campaign operations in january mclernon had gone off to Arkansas Post he might have been to Arkansas Post so thats about what i figure nobody goes to Arkansas Post. Weve got a couple out there that has okay not much out there right . The fort itself is gone. It is where the river is now. But its an important political its pretty important battle. Sherman or in mclernon lose like a thousand soldiers killed wounded in missing in Arkansas Post pretty good a little battle but the political aspects of this are what is so important grant goes bonkers over going on what he calls a wild goose chase is going off on a wild goose chase and grant requests permission to be able to remove. Maclaurin and halleck gives information. So if you want to get rid of maclaren and grant, thats fine. You go right ahead. Or at least take sole command of the expedition against vicksburg and. Thats exactly what grant does. So grant makes the decision to make this a one axis of advance movement. And grant in late due january, will actually move southward along the mississippi down to where he will keep his headquarters at youngs point, near milligans. Being on the louisiana side, just upriver from vicksburg. So the first decision was go out to vicksburg. Number two, lets make it a one axis of advance movement. But the problem is, by this point, we in january entering march, april. 1863 and the whole place is flooded, the mississippi delta, how many have you been in the mississippi delta . Okay. If youve been asked, suppose youve been in the arkansas flattest pancake floods easily every year floods. And as a result, most of the operating area that grant has to deal with is pretty much water at this point. And its not going to recede any time soon. Its going to take months for all water to recede. In fact, i believe as the historian jfc fuller talked about, like noah grant stood and watched, waiting for the waters to subside. You know, so what do you do for two or three or four months where grant talks a lot about . Well, you know, were going to keep our guys busy. Were just going to do busy work and just, you know, keep them thinking were actually doing something. But its not important. I dont you know, were not going to take vicksburg. We just got to wait. Well, nothing could be further from the truth. You know, ill admit im a grant fan. I like grant, but he tells some whoppers in his memoirs. Right. Dont you . Just because somebody writes their memoirs, dont take it is the gospel truth. Because obviously what theyre doing, theyre trying to make themselves look as good as possible. And the people they dont like as bad possible. Thats just the way you do with memoirs. So its a good, good thing to read. Good book, good source, but you always got to check it and the best place to check his memoirs is to see what he saying contemporaneously about he was talking about in his memoirs. So go to the 32 volumes of john simons papers of Ulysses S Grant. And so if he says something that really dont make sense in the memoirs back and see what he was writing about in those letters at the time and theres several instances when you find that grants telling a big fat lies what hes doing and what he was saying the time dont really up. So third decision that grant makes is to try to get to vicksburg by other means and that is if everythings flooded, how do you get through a flooded area . Mainly by a boat . So as i was talking about the Vicksburg Campaign, extremely unique, extremely complicated. Youve got the naval presence here very, very important in the navy, really comes into here in several of these attempts that youve heard that, you know of. These are called the battle attempts that grant basically to to tread water and to get through by any way that he can have a map that will deal with that. Here you go. Grants attempts and theyre for more major. There are some less major ones, but four major ones. Number one, he tries to a canal across this big hairpin turn at vicksburg here, dig a canal to divert the Mississippi River. All thats thats been tried a little bit beforehand. You talk about going against the book. Theres nothing in germany about diverting, you know, the largest river on a continent. It doesnt work if the river actually later changes course to the pretty much the area that grant wanted to. But that was in 1876. It was a little bit late to help grant, but he tries to dig this canal and give me a for forever the Lake Providence operation. They cut a levee to lake, providence, flood lake, providence and several of the bouse and rivers to try to get around vicksburg to the west, the two on the eastern side of the Mississippi River are really fascinating. They would cut the river up at moon lake near helena, go through yazoo, pass to the cold water river, down to the Tallahatchie River. Now, thats the same Tallahatchie River that. Billie Joe Mcallister jumped in to. It is fiercely it is also the same river you may have seen on the news recently. The President Biden had declared the emmett till National Park or monument or whatever. This the same Tallahatchie River that they threw the body of emmett into in in later recovered down to the yellow bushes where it would come the years the river, of course the zoo pass expedition is stopped at greenwood, mississippi, the blue place called for pemberton, and they have to to get out of there. The stills bio expedition goes up bio to black blackmail, over to deer creek, over to rolling fork. Theyre going through ditches here that are just flooded at the time. But none of these work now. What they actually are, theyre small scale attempts that are low risk, but provide really high rewards. The low risk, high reward. So you can kind of see what would grants doing here. Now, the ironic thing is that grant almost loses the fleet in the stills bio expedition when he gets in there and they start, you know, the start cutting trees behind them in all of that, they managed to get the fleet out. But these are low risk, high reward efforts that. Grant really put a lot of stock into you read those letters at the time. Grants talking like, okay, yeah, yazoo pass, this is going to be our ticket to vicksburg or at least to the position where we can get to the point where were going to attack vicksburg. That high ground east of east vicksburg stills by you know forget yazoo pass still weve another route were going to make the route stills but he was very high on each of these things until they proved to be failures so this idea that, you know, grant in his memoirs, i never really put stock into it. Were just doing busy work, keeping the guys busy, keeping their muscles up. And in all that, uh, not really. Not really. The truth. Had one of these succeeded, grant would have been as static. But none of them do so. Third season is to basically tread water for a little while, try anything we can to be able to get to vicksburg. But none of them work. Okay. When we go to what are we on number four . I have ask my students all time, what are we on number four . And yeah, thats right. Okay. Now here within the eight seasons, this is the big decision and really in terms of the entire civil war, this is one of the biggies. This is one of the Big Decisions. In fact, bruce catton, anybody ever heard of bruce catton . Okay. I saw several of his books here. Bruce catton labeled this as one of the two or three really Big Decisions in civil war. Is that and that is the decision to quit piddling around up here north of vicksburg with yazoo pass and steeles bound lake, providence and canal, all kind of stuff. Plus jigsaw bond, were up to six failed attempts now. And what grain is going to do is to shift his army southward through a series of bios and and roadways . Now that the water is starting to recede a little bit in april and he will move his way southward this looping wilderness down there to a point south of vicksburg that he can actually cross the river and move on much more favorable up to this high ground east vicksburg hes after. So this very risk this is an extremely risky decision that he is making and again goes completely against the because number theres no supporting columns. Number two theres no real decisive to take number. Three youre putting the whole enemy army between yourself and your base of supplies literally is back in memphis. So dont have a secure supply line by any means. This is going totally against book, but grant says. What have we got to lose . Were going to right now. The key thing here is this is not the low risk, high reward risks before this is do or die. There is no backing up from this. Once you start this, theres no coming back. You know, we had been through plan and a, b, c, d, if this is playing g, there is no plan. Abc, d, h, this there is no plan h. If this doesnt work. Grant probably in the political atmosphere loses is may lose his army. Theres a good possibility he could lose his life or spend the rest of it in a confederate prison camp somewhere. There is no going back on this. Just an example of how critical this is. The navy is going to be very, very involved when you get to the side of the Mississippi River, you have to cross over to the east side. Well, you cant build a pontoon broke boat bridge across the Mississippi River. You have to have the navy there and as a result, when he talks the flag officer porter about this, porters like, really you want to do this . Okay, ill do it. But you have to understand it. And he tells grant, this, this, this, this, this very critical, uh, in fact, porter tells grant that if we go south of vicksburg, going to have to run these batteries and theres no guarantee that our boats are even going to get past these big, huge guns. Vicksburg if we do get past porter says, im going to send the best boats that i have to knock out. For instance, grand gulf the guns there. Im not going to send just the weakest vessels i have, almost in the best ive got, whic doesnt leave a lot north vicksburg. The big thing here, though, is that porter says, all right, grant, if we go south of vicksburg, there is no hope whatsoever of getting the vessels back up north of vicksburg if this option doesnt work, you may be able pull your army out. You know get it out. But we cant get the vessels back up north of vicksburg. And heres the reason. Whats the current of the mississippi. Five or six knots. How many does the average civil city class ironclad make for . Five or so. So if you add that together, or if youre going with the current you to make good speed southward past. But if you have to turn around, try to come back up against the current, youll be making it based may be one or two knots, which means what you will be sitting ducks for the confederate artillery there vicksburg supporters says once we go below, there is no getting back. So be careful what you wish for. If you really want to do this, ill do it. Ill risk my vessels. But just know that theres no going back. So this plan h. This is the final one. Succeed or fail . Well, grant says, okay, nothing else to do. Lets go do it. Not really . Thats im paraphrasing here, but grant says in actuality there is no other choice. This is what we have to do. So as grant marches his army southward on the western side of the Mississippi River, porter moves southward with his vessels. On the night of april, the 16th moor transports fall on the night of april the 22nd, and eventually they cannot reduce the guns at grant gulf on the 29th. And so grant will have to move a little farther down the river to a place called this maroons plantation. And there the army embarks on the gunboats and the transports and the barges and every anything thatll float and they are moved across the river to land in mississippi to place called brewin spur. From there grant marches inland, of course, and he will fight the battle that day may the first the very next day in the morning, the battle of port gibson and the new move crossbow appear and kind of sit and wait and gather his thoughts there. So one of the key, two or three big decision in civil war grant makes right here and. Theres no going back success or fail, do or die, conquer or perish is albert . Sidney johnston said prior to shiloh now. So this is dangerous supply issues. Naval issues but it is successful grant actually gets across the river. Brownsburg there is opposition. In fact the confederates dont meet him until near port. Gibson itself. Now the reason for this are many diverse issues that grant has going on of Frederick Steeles entire division is gone up to up the river to greenville and operating along the deer creek area. Sherman himself has going back to chickasaw bow out there where he had been defeated several months ago. And hes showing himself there, you know, with the gunboats and the army and so on, to make the confederates think going to land there. The biggest diversion, of course garrisons raid that rod slammed through the whole part of mississippi and causes just all kind of ruckus takes pembertons views you know grant where they should have been and his attention is solely on owen grierson almost. In fact, with all this going on, so many different diversions and freight and everything, all of them to the northeast of vicksburg, where grant is moving to the south west of vicksburg, poor old John C Pemberton. And we could do a whole talk on pemberton, guess, you know. Well, this is not about pemberton anyway. Well, ill tell you my thinking on pemberton. If somebody would create a John C Pemberton bobblehead doll that perfectly encapsulate whats going on with pemberton because he has is literally, you know, its bubbling because hes got so much going on every different direction. And in the process grant is crossing the river easily in the Decision Works okay so thats decision number five right number six. No was number four. Number five. See i get mixed up this, i was testing you to see if you were paying attention. Some of youre notes. Very good. You get away for the class tonight. All right. So number five, what do we do now . Grant has a couple options. Once he kind of sits in and gathers his thoughts and gathers some supplies and gathers other corps, shermans corps, thats been flung off up to to chicks over down in greenville. Sherman corps will move in enjoying grant here near willow springs. So then he has a couple of choices. What do we do then . Well, obvious choice would be to cross some of ferries like thompsons ferry or hankins very or hauls ferry and just move straight up toward vicksburg. He doesnt want to do that, though, mainly because he doesnt want to get caught in this triangle, basically, that is the Mississippi River on the the Big Black River on the right and the railroad in the in the north there the Confederate Army can basically defend from the Mississippi River to the Big Black River and as a result, get grant him end to this triangular area here where grant cannot maneuver. Grant wants to be able to maneuver. And as a result if you get him into a restricted, thats going to be problematic so the better idea would be to move northeastward on. The west side of the Big Black River and reach the railroad, the single railroad that is feeding vicksburg, literally feeding vicksburg maybe is important. More important to the transportation of supplies and ammunition. And that is important. But by this point in may probably the communication that the railroad provides both to telegraph and so on. But outside of vicksburg, that is extremely critical as well. And as a result, grant will decide. All right, lets just move up using the the Big Black River as a shield on our left. Lets move north and lets cut that railroad somewhere between clinton, bolton, edwards, right in this this area. Cut that railroad. Get a stride of the railroad. No more trains going to come through the more telegraphic messages are going to move through. We will vicksburg cut off similar to the pacific in world war two. Were japanese islands and installations were basically cut off and allowed to wither on the vine, if you will. The Island Hopping campaign. So grant is going isolate vicksburg as he northward in the middle part of may. In doing so, he will fight five battles in 17 days. Weve already talked about port gibson on may the first, he will meet a confederate brigade or one corps will meet a confederate brigade at raymond on may the 12th, and then jackson on may the 14th. I hear theres a good book on jackson that just came out recently. You know, whats guys name that wrote that i cant remember mac something. Anyway, it is a good book. Jackson on may the 14th, grant makes decision to turn from the railroad here because of the resistance that he made it raymond on his right flank and he will decide. All right. Weve got to take care of jackson here and whatevers out there. We dont know whats there. So were going to turn and we might as well cut the railroad or jackson is bolton. So kill two birds with one stone. So well move to jackson. Take jackson, deprive the enemy of here is is a concentration area. Then he will turn westward and he will finally the Confederate Army under pemberton, who by this point and again this is not old pemberton, but i have definite thoughts about his. The fact that he came out from behind Big Black River, the shield of the Big Black River is very important but even more so than that, he comes from behind bakers creek and he gets totally caught out of position. Pemberton gets totally caught out of position. And as a result, he is hit on may the 16th, a champion. Hell and retreating across not only bakers creek he loses a whole division William Loring division in retreat in cross bakers creek. But then the next day on may the 17th, the Big Black River bridge, he nearly loses a whole other division there. When john bones division to defend and its its a major debacle there so in 17 days grant fights five battles manages outnumber the enemy each time and manages to defeat the enemy each time. Now you know that may not be saying much when youre talking this is John Pemberton were were were fighting against had this been robert e lee in command of im not sure that grant would have been able to do this but im not sure would have attempted it like this. You know, were getting in a little bit of what ifs there, but by may 17th, grant has cracked the shield. That is the big river shielding vicksburg. And he will continue to move on westward, invest vicksburg. Now, the key thing here is grant reaching the yazoo river to the north vicksburg. All of these confederates that are fanning hundreds bluff and haynes bluff, they fall back vicksburg, of course. And so by the 17th, 18th, grant and sherman both and several lot of the troops have reached the a river, which is critical in terms of supplies. Where was grant supplies coming from all during the inland campaign here in may, either from the land theyre gathering, you know, bread and and bacon and not a lot of bread. Bacon and poultry and all of that off the land. So he does somewhat live off the land, but you cant go out into a Farmers Field and pick many. I have yet to see a mini bald bush. Where where you can can pick those. Also, the critical need is bread, not a lot of bread stuffs are available in in the plantation area here in the farming area. And as a result, what grant is basically moving in wagon trains up to the army are the things that he cant acquire cannot acquire by living off the land and thats mainly bread and ammunition so its critical that grant reach the yazzie river where supplies will come through and start flowing unhampered because the federal navy has proven that you can go down the mississippi and a few miles up the air zoo here until the big guns at snyders bluff stop your your movement. So in this area back at the chickasaw bow battlefield where sherman had landed and been defeated back in december and, then landed again in late april and early may. You can certainly supplies here and thats but that becomes the the big major depot for the union army vicksburg. Now this ends basically what is the first what i call the first real phase of Vicksburg Campaign. If if you want to divide the Vicksburg Campaign into just simply two different phases, you can do that by saying, okay, number one, the federal span, seven months, just getting into a position because of geography and the delta up here in the Mississippi River and just the way its all laid out, they spent about seven months just getting a position where they can then start the second phase of taking vicksburg. Now, normally great action right about this. He says, you know, normally in battle i just to fight the enemy but in campaign ive had to maneuver to get into a position just fight the enemy. So really two different phases and all of these attempts in this final attempt is simply to get into a position. And ill give you an example of why i think this when grant sherman in grant talks about this in his sherman admitted when grant and sherman finally ride to the point overlooking chicks mobile where had been defeated back in december, sherman turns to grant and says, all right, grant, i really wasnt interested in this. I didnt think it would succeed and read between the lines basically sherman is saying, i thought you were an idiot for ordering this, but you dont tell your commanding general, you know he was idiot, but the the idea here is that sherman tells grant that, i can see it now with the supplies open, we have vicksburg him. Then theres no doubt whats going to be the result of this thing. And so this is the end, this campaign. In fact, sherman, you need to make a report to washington. This campaign. We havent even taken vicksburg. You dont know whats to happen in the future. But this campaign is ended and its brilliant. And you did a good job, grant. Youre not an idiot. Like i thought you were. And grant says, well, okay, thanks so end of the first phase of this is getting into a position to actually take vicksburg and. Thats the first five major decisions. Now that leads us to decision number six. When grant approaches vicksburg on the 17th and 18th of may, what do you do now . Whats next . Well. We could just sit here and, you know, wait for them to to come and surrender or starve. You. We can starve them out. That includes siege. Right. And theres a whole that opens up a whole new can of worms of how you do siege operations. Its lengthy. It it takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of patience. And grant says and i dont that whats the other option. Listen, this today by doing what an attack assault so lets assault vicksburg. So grant marches up to vicksburg he tells his entire army that were going to assault. And on may 19th, hell everybody go, but only one division actually goes on may the 19th. Its a hurried operation. In fact, the assault is supposed to take place at 2 p. M. On may the 19th. Grants headquarters. And this is one of the few messages, the official records that actually has a time on it. But the time stamp on grants orders to attack at 2 p. M. Is 11 16 a. M. So you have an hour, 44 minutes to get prepared here. Thats not forward thinking too much. You know, thats rushing it up a little bit. And as a result, the assault fails. Its blairs division along the graveyard road against the stockade renay. And grant says, okay, well, im you understand, you know, we rushed it up a little bit. Lets take our time. Lets consolidate the army. Lets get the entire army up. Lets get supplies distributed, and lets do this thing right. And so he he says, ah, may the 22nd is when were going to do this thing. Right. And everybody, mark, your watch is put your watches together, set your watch my time. Were all going at 10 00 and at 10 a. M. On the morning of may, the 22nd, the entire army of the will assault vicksburg, which see here and everything will fail. Mclernon will say, you made a little progress and it doesnt much, but by the end of the day, on may 22nd, vicksburg still holds fast. Now, why does he make this decision . Theres several different that grant and i you know, ive discussed this with others and theres some that are of the opinion that grant should not have wasted lives and should not have attempted to take vicksburg and some of these are military folks who might argue with military folks about, you know, wasted lives. Im certainly not going to do that. But i happen to think grant some pretty good reasons for doing this. First and foremost, he thinks the Confederate Army is dejected and will basically just roll over and play dead at the first force that is shown against it. Remember, in the last two or three days or may, the 16th to Champion Hill and may the 17th, the Big Black River bridge, Confederate Army has taken a thumping, and theyre very discouraged. The problem is grant doesnt realize that the troops that his army will encounter in their assaults on both them may the 19th and the 22nd are the two fresh divisions that had been guarding snyders bluff and haynes bluff and those that had not been involved in the debacles at Champion Hill and Big Black River. So they meet fresh troops as a result are or turn back grant logically thinks weve got him on the run why not add a little more pressure and theyll fold. I can see his thinking there. Grant also thinks okay, its may. If we go ahead and handle this thing today, then weve got some more good weather before it really hot and it really gets hot. Mississippi and in july and august, those of you on a tour last you figured that out anyway it was hot the the idea is we can do more in you know the cooler days of may and early june and so on. So theres other things that we can do if we go ahead and take care of this, they will have to send us reinforcements, which later during the siege, of course, their numerous reinforcements are sent to grant. He says those could be used somewhere else. They wouldnt have to send them to us. If we can go ahead and take care of this. He also says that his he didnt think they would conduct siege operations if they had not had a chance to assault, you know, if they had a chance, take care of it today. They needed to be proven wrong in order for them to really put their into siege warfare, which it takes, you know, time and patience. If i was a soldier, i would probably said, lets do it the easier way. You know, i got plenty of patience. Lets listen. You know, i got patience than i do, you know, blood going to run out if i get shot or something, you know, so. But anyway grants for a number of different reasons, including what hes confronting him the rear and heres st a little bit of the idea Joseph Johnston is lurking out there he he reoccupied jackson after grant leaves in his building an army of relief a very bullet grant hes worried about it. Hes almost paranoid about it. So he will create if we get it in the siege warfare here in actually the next decision number seven is to lay siege to vicksburg is really the only option that got there. So number six is to assault. And i can understand why grant did it, but in tandem, number seven, no other option, less lay siege. So when you lay siege there, very definite terms are used. The line that goes in to actually in the confederates, vicksburg or any place under siege is called a line of circumnavigation. Nobody ever heard that term. Were getting real technical. Okay. I dont see a single hand out there. And this to a may have been to vicksburg so okay thats much better well well last all right make sure you still awake the the line of circumnavigation will basically encircle vicksburg and cut them off. Now this is not actually done midjune everybody thinks, oh, well they just marched up and they cut vicksburg off. Its not sealed off until a lot of those reinforcements actually come in. And its midjune with the arrival of lonmins Division Division from missouri. That great actually pretty seals off vicksburg. Now, behind that out here will be whats called a line of counter violation or sometimes called contra violation. And the two are almost interchangeable. Some will use some, some other. But what that is thats a rearward facing line that will defend your rear while you are besieging. And by the end of the siege will actually send sherman out to this rearward line here. So sherman there with about a third or more of his army, about 33,000 troops are on this rear ward line here while grant and the rest of this the whats left of the 77,000 will try to continue their approaches. And in ups and so on toward vicksburg. So weve got two different lines facing opposite directions. But grant is very concerned about his rear, but he is conducting these siege operation, which in Civil War History has long been titled 47 days of siege. Theres even a book, you know, 47 days of siege or Something Like that if you include assaults it. Yes. Is 47 days. And this is really little, you know, splitting hairs almost. But the assaults were not actually part of the siege. The the siege operations dont really commence may the 23rd in. Theyre not by grant. Grant dont send out formal orders to start siege operations. Absolutely. Until may the 25th. And so if you take out the four or five days of assaults when grant literally thinks were going to end this right now, it cuts the siege down to like 43 days or Something Like that. So that book should have been nine, 43 days of siege at vicksburg. That is one of the reasons, though, that there are two distinct operations. And i wanted a volume on each. So this five volume series that we did, theres a volume on the assaults themselves. And then one on the siege. So for six weeks or so grant will lay siege to vicksburg, the confederates inside will slowly dwindle away their muscles will will, will slow down. The Food Supplies will start to run out. Weve heard them, you know, eating mules and rats. And in all that, it gets pretty bad inside vicksburg ultimately pemberton will surrender. He starts the negotiations on july the third. They carry over to the next day on july the fourth. This is the same july 3rd and fourth. That up at gettysburg, you know, picketts charge all that in middle tennessee, tullahoma bragg is getting checkmated almost at least in terms of the middle tennessee part. So a lot going on those couple of days. Now, this leads to the last decision and that is what to do with all these confederate prisoners. Well, heres big booboo in grants memoirs, grant later says, well, you know, everybody wanted to send him up to prison camps. We got 30,000 confederates. All of a sudden well send them to prison camps. But i said no less parole because we want all of them to go home and maybe theyll never come up, come back. In truth, if you look at the correspondence from the time everybody was saying parole him except grant and grant and one of the division commanders, actually, Frederick Steele, had been booted up to 15th corps command when sherman went to take of the Railroad Line back there. But grant, Frederick Steele were the ones saying no less cinema, prison camps grant still has this. He like this Unconditional Surrender thing you know that he got it for donald. So we a whole army, three major armies captured in the civil war if you include appomattox i guess for donelson vicksburg appomattox. You see a pattern here . You know, we grant involved in every one of them. You got bunch of other smaller ones as well. But everybody else is telling no parole and that way you dont have to tie up the entire navy in the transport vessels and in all of that, they literally will, especially the mississippians, will probably just go home and a lot of them will never come back in. Grant says, yeah, yes, pretty good idea. So well just well just do that. So the eighth decision is to parole the vicksburg army. And i think the common consensus now is that the vast majority of, the vicksburg garrison, does go home and never back. There are some that that do their exchange and rejoin the army. Some are captured again as soon as november admission rage which makes you wonder if they really agreed to you know their exchange and paroles and all that, many of them went on to fight in the in the Atlanta Campaign is corps. But a lot of them just simply did not come back and thats kind of what grant actually actually wanted. So the agencies to parole the vicksburg garrison about thousand im 29,000 in chains so eight major decisions and in looking at these decisions i think it illustrates well it illustrates a lot of things the the capability of who grants operating against thats always you know key and sometimes we joke about you know weve you know robert e lee was he really that good or was it just because he was against mcclellan in pope and, you know, burnside and hooker and the rest of the stooges there in in the east, theyre more three stooges in the eastern theater. I dont do eastern theater. Forget i said it in right. Ill leave it to some of these others that know a lot more about it than i do. But theres no doubt that if if grant been facing lee here, that things might have been a little bit different. Um, theres no doubt that had grant faced or lee faced grant earlier in the eastern teen or here, things probably might have have looked a little different as well. But it is what it is and we have grant facing pemberton and it says you know a lot about pemberton but it says more grant and just you know if you take away grants i think genius too to play in a Campaign Like this and then to follow it through, even if its do or die, take those chances, you know, thats the stuff of that. And clausewitz both talk about coup de and the the the genius the military genius we see his bulldog never give up mentality. You know, if something happens well just go a different route. Well well do it another way. It shows his adaptable city how many times in one of these campaign in this campaign, do we see grant hit a brick wall and say, okay, i cant go through that brick wall. Well go around a different way . He adapts. He continually adapts. And thats the stuff of life. You know, those who adapt in life, you know, dont make it very successfully. And certainly in and in grant certainly does that. So thats just the military aspect. And i dont know, have i used up all my time weve got time for some questions or ive got no time for questions. You know, in the in the larger context here, were talking just military. But if you add in his personal family stuff that hes dealing with at the same time if you add in his the the economic trade issues, then expelling the and all that. If you add in the political overtones of all this, grants got a lot on his plate, a lot of Different Things going on. And i think he handles it pretty doggone well, right . Pretty doggone well. It shows the genius of Ulysses S Grant. And again, in probably the most complex, the most unique, longest, probably Important Campaign in civil war. I think we see grants genius come out very, very well. Thank you very much. If you have any questions. Im not sure how long we have, but you take over chris and tim me start with a question myself because grant proposes crossing the river and striking into the heart of mississippi, sherman does agree with the plan. He tells grant he doesnt. He still does. His duties. Grant it doesnt seem to affect grant shermans relationship, even though saying, oh, this is a terrible idea. Can you speak to that a little bit . Yeah. You know, we hear a lot about the grant sherman relationship going back to shiloh. Everybody says it starts at shiloh, probably starts little bit before that when grant is going after 14 hearing fort donelson, sherman is actually back at paducah funneling goods and supplies cars and man up to grant and grant is very appreciative of what is doing, even though sherman outranks grant at that point, you know. But sherman is willing to put that aside and to to help grant. So the friendship probably goes back to that. And so when we get to this point, you know grant i think has figured out sherman and he knows that sherman is just the bombastic type and all probably know people like this you know sherman is the type he walked in that room he had come that door mouth first and hes going to talk and you know, breed everybody and be the social grant comes in that door. Hes going hunt the first corner he can go go get it so different different ways. But grant knows sherman by this point. And so when sherman flies with one of these bombastic this is not to work, this is dumb. All that kind of stuff. Grant just kind of like, oh yeah, well, okay, ive heard it before and paid no attention to sherman. Does write a letter and verbally he tells grant as well. And he basically makes the argument that any confederate general would gladly maneuver a year he says to put grant in a position that he was willingly assuming. You know with one foot on each side of Mississippi River, a straight out of the mississippi. But grant says, well, theres no real other choice. So were going to do it. You know, youre youre worries. Duly noted. Thats fine. But were going to do it anyway. And but now the key to that i is that sherman is so by this point in grants career that even though he didnt like it, he still says, i will do all i can. You know, he writes his subordinates, i dont like plan. I dont like this roundabout plan. But weve got to support grant and do our best and sherman, you know, to his credit later says, i didnt like but youre right that you know, we did it your way and it worked by the way, president lincoln also sends grant a message after the Vicksburg Campaign and says, ive been watching and when you turn northward on the west, east side of the Big Black River, i thought you were making a mistake. I thought you should have done this and so on. But lincoln stayed out of it. And at the bottom of the letter, he says, i want to make the public assertion or the public admission that you were right and i was wrong. How many other president s would write a letter like, you know, i dont i dont know many that would. So the relationship there is is is key. But grant doesnt let it stop. You know, when he doesnt agree, grants in charge. So grant makes decisions. That decision was all my own. Says, all right, i just remind you, please stand and introduce yourself and where youre from. Ill hold the mic. And as you ask your question, danny. You talk about grant during the planning here, most of us whove been in the military know that staffs do planning. You know, the doesnt whip out a cocktail napkin and, draw up a plan like this. Who are the supporting Staff Officers here . And you been able to delve into the research enough to know that, yes, thats is very much an issue. Grant one of the problems with grant is that he is a very poor judge of character, whether it be his staff during the civil war. Its a lot of cronyism. He knew somebody from the lane or he knew somebody from saying, oh, youd make a good staff officer when they wound up a bunch of drunks and didnt know what they were doing. But grant is loyal to them. You see this later on in his administration when theres just bunch of crooks that are his cabinet officials, you know, dont serve him very well at all. So there are a few good ones rolling. Burns and theres a book on this, and i dont remember the name of it, but the argument is that the father in the war that grant goes, his staff becomes much more proficient and professional. But early on, up the Vicksburg Campaign, they were just bunch of friends and cronies that really we dont serve him very well. And as a result, i think grant knew a little bit of this and he actually says this whole roundabout thing south of vicksburg he says i didnt even mention it to any of my staff until it was time to do it because we couldnt do anything now with all water and so on. So its all been in the back of my mind for all these months, but i didnt even mention it to my staff and so its quite clear that grant is the one doing the planning not to staff because they they are probably at this point not capable that which adds even more to the genius of grant question back here. Dale robertson wins the virginia my question as youve said a couple of times that had lee been in command grant may not have made that move. Seth and thing and i might be paraphrasing here that lee said once that his greatest fear was lincoln would appoint a commander in the army of the potomac that he didnt understand. Did grant know pemberton . And if he did, how much would that have factored into his decision to put a Confederate Army between him, the supply base and take that risk, right . Yes. Grant does no. Pemberton they served in the mexican war together. Same division actually. And in fact that is a kind of a Training Ground for a lot of these these officers. In fact, theres a new book thats coming out, and i dont think im, you know, say anything i shouldnt i wont tell names, publishers or anything. But actually, cecily and i have written an article about it. Megan grant in her own right, of course, but it deals with the Lessons Learned in mexico when they knew each other and learned each other, and in how they put that to to use in the civil war and grant most famously of course when hes when hes approaching fort donelson and theres no opposition whatsoever after fort donaldson falls, buckner tells him, grant, if i was in in command, which he was at floyd and pearl in pillow or in command, he said, if i had been in command, you wouldnt have been able to just march opt for donaldson like that. And grant actually tells buckner if you had been in command i wouldnt have tried it that so kind of the same thing here he does know pemberton he knows hes passive. He knows these administrative in in nature. Pemberton is a born administrator pencil pusher who has no business whatsoever or out command and an army has no experience in it. And so grant definitely uses to his advantage because he knows he knows that. Time for one last question right here is not self you could you speak a little bit to the relationship between porter and grant and the navy and grant and how really unusual and critical was . Absolutely. You know, you have a lot of different campaigns, middle tennessee, perryville, even in in the Shenandoah Valley up here in the east, gettysburg campaign, the navys not involved because theres no water and maybe a few little rivers and or whatnot. But with the Mississippi River being right smack in middle of this whole campaign, the navy becomes extremely important and this complicated a little bit by the fact the Brown Water Navy, as its called, the Blue Water Navy being the big ocean going ships, but the river ironclad, the gunboats tend in clouds and in timber clouds and so on. They will initially be under the armys. So at fort henry for donaldson, the army could command flag. Officer foote, we need you to do this go do this and and could balk a little bit but he ultimately had to do it in the fall of 62, the navy those vessels to the navy or, lincoln transfers the vessels to the navy. And so theyre no longer under army command. And so that relationship between grant and porter is absolutely critical because grant wins. Porter over almost, almost immediately. And so porter do not everything theres some example elsewhere where he wont you know, do some things grant wont. But by and large, like, you know, passing the vicksburg batteries, by and large, grant porter will do pretty much anything grant wants because porter can see is pretty good idea. And this is what weve got left. And so the inner working there, grant and porter is just absolutely critical and you know, you cant turn it the other way around and say if if porter had to work with another army officer. Well, you cant say that, i guess. But for instance, if if it had not been grant and it had been mclernon as lincoln, i suppose, you know, when he gave him this order to go take vicksburg i dont think we would have got the cooperation between porter and mclernon that we got between porter and grant. So what im saying, if you turn around, if there was a different naval commander, if it had been grant, it may not have been the same relationship back and forth with with grant in a different naval commander. So theyre almost soulmates, you know, a navy and a army that get along so well, Work Together so well in tandem. And we see the results of it in this very unique and in a very, very Important Campaign against vicksburg tim smith, thank you very much