Very Important Campaign against vicksburg tim smith, thank you very much. Hello and welcome to live the amsterdam a joint project between the New Amsterdam project at New York Historical and the new Netherland Institute in albany, new york. Im deborah hamer, im the director of the Netherland Institute and ill be your host today. The new netherland is organization devoted to preserving, translating digitizing and making available dutch documents from the 17th and 18th century in north america. And my guest today is dr. Chelsea teale. Shes a lecturer in geography at cal poly humboldt. Shes currently working on a book about in the netherlands. So welcome, chelsea. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for me. You can hear me all right . Yeah, perfectly crystal clear. Okay, so lets get into. Can you tell us little bit about the climate in the in the 17th century . So what were the settlers who were coming over from the netherlands used to then kind of how was it different when they when they arrived in new netherland, you know, the 1620s and beyond. Sure. Im not an expert in and you know, Northern European climate history, but i guess at first i would say lets think about it in terms of Northern Europe instead of the dutch republic, because so many people that came to new netherland were not dutch. So thinking more broadly like germany, france and norway, anything in europe would have been different but similar to new netherland in that the little ice age, which spanned know approximately like 1300 midway, 1800s or so temperatures were by maybe up to a degree fahrenheit in the Northern Hemisphere. And so everybody would have been on maybe a little chillier then than they are today. But also storm was perhaps a little bit more extreme or irregular than today, but would have been plenty of years where nothing remarkable happened and then several years where things would have been pretty volatile, that kind of thing. So i think people based on what ive read new netherland documents is that people compared to another one to home, a lot of people describe it as just like home, maybe the summers for hotter and the winters colder, but otherwise it was the same. Even the people who did comment on the the winters would talk about the cold northwesterly winds that brought the cold and they didnt know what was inside north america. So they didnt know why those winds were cold. A lot of people compared it to the northeasterly cold winds that affected the dutch republic. A lot of these descriptions are, just like, you know, its the same we have forces that is they might and stop a bit more abruptly than at home, but they exist and. The winds are the same and. I have the impression that it wasnt so completely different in terms of like objectively sitting back and looking at it, the issue was they werent expecting it to be like that based on the latitude and so you know think of amsterdam in the netherlands today is about ten degrees of latitude farther north than new york city. And so if you look at a map and european in the 1600s, youre thinking wow like this this area basically like central spain. So thats great. And then arrive and find its absolutely not like central spain. So is more about like being surprised about the seasonality then that other things for different theres adrian wrote a big description of the colony and did write that you know its the same except maybe there are more tornadoes. At what the original term was for tornadoes that he used. But even he said the storm frequency and the types of storms were the same. So i dont know that it was extremely different. Its just that they didnt have the resources to buffer against this as it. Yeah, yeah. I mean thats a great point also about the fact that obviously lots the people who are in new netherland were not dutch necessarily so, they were european and they might had different expectations. But also, you know, we can throw in the fact that there is, you know, obviously africans who would have had completely expectations about about climate and you know what they were used to. So so, yes. Mean i think its important to open up that discussion that not everyone was coming with with the same experiences of climate. But yes. So thats very interesting though that that the weather is actually quite similar. But the similarity, the surprise rather than difference. So theyre expecting it to be different and then it is in fact similar, i wonder if you can say anything to it, know to the issue of you know what . Since they expected it to be more like spain, you know, its obviously not it did. How did they react to that or how did they even develop that expectation, that it would be like spain so that it would be warm . And what did they do . What were they thinking that, you know, so like were there any projects that were basically based that that assumption was there was expectation of growing certain types of crops. But based on records that i use, which are a lot of official like government documents so theyre not people, whole lot of correspondence or things where people talk about their day, which is where you would find more information about agriculture or other things. I mean, the colony was not not the tidewater, chesapeake, where it was like, okay, tobacco, it about the fur trade primarily. So even at a colony scale, plans for big agricultural pursuits its in the records that i have. But yeah people expected to be able to grow crops that were more suited. A warmer climate then on the other hand, theres plenty of records of people talking about how great their are and theres plenty of this and that i picked some peaches in october so its difficult to distinguish between like whats and what. Yes i mean especially since you referenced adrian van der ducs book. You know, obviously hes for those who dont know, hes writing in the 1650s because he specifically wants to get people to to the netherlands. So theres no incentive denigrate the climate or the agricultural possibility of new netherland so that we definitely do have to take those sources with with a grain of salt to some extent, and the opposite as. Well, in 1629 and then again in 1634, the west company wrote to the states general to complain how horrible it was, how cold is, and its unprofitable and, its snowy and the winters are bad and its agriculturally unproductive. And please make us do this. Oh, thats so funny. So the west India Company was basically to make an argument that it would be better to to kind of abandon new netherland and focus on other, other in that early period. Yes but its probably exaggeration. So its like on the other end because they, you know, peace was starting to be negotiated essentially. And west India Company was really making a lot of money by seizing spanish ships, taking the goods of the cargo out of them and if there was peace, that would be illegal. But when war was happening, that that a thing that they enjoyed and so they didnt want to have to stop doing that. So i think that was probably an exaggeration also. Yeah, thats thats interesting. Yeah. So depending whether your approach keeping a colony or opposed to keeping it, you might have different reporting about the weather. Yeah. In the climate. Yeah, thats very interesting. I just want to mention before continue that if you do have a question, feel to drop it into the q a. We will have some time for questions. You know in the 10 minutes of of this. So feel free to start the q a feature any time and well get to those questions at the end when the or when these new settlers arrived in the netherlands, they encountered Indigenous Peoples, obviously. Is there any evidence they discussed climate with them or learned anything from them about how to adapt the climate or anything like that . Im sure they did. But in records that i have used, again, theyre more like government scale, so theyre not there isnt anything about adapting at a top down level except for some directives to, you know, do some things to mitigate flooding. In manhattan there really is not a ton of that. So im sure it happened on a case by case basis and for example, 1630 talking about mohawk valley, iroquois would not would often want to leave their villages in the wintertime and the quote would be like, because sometimes the snow is the of a man. So mean there was conversation but its just not written down very thoroughly but i have seen from records from new england and also the delaware area where comments are made like massachusetts froze over Delaware River froze over and the delaware froze one night to the thickness that could support, you know, a person walking across. And in both of those cases, there is anecdotes about how the Indigenous People had never seen that happen before in their lifetimes. So there was definitely conversation not recorded and other thing i would mention is from canada but this is later in the 1600s past dutch control and the french were being aggressive and had you know indigenous allies on both sides and there was a lot of little separate records. But probably coming from the same source of all these thousands pairs of snowshoes being made. And everyone is worried about because the quicker, faster to reach your destination and so to be surprised at that feel threatened would mean that perhaps they had not already on a broad scale adopted snowshoes. Im not sure. And again, thats just like one note. So its really lacking not to part with you. Yeah, well, that brings me to my next question, which is how do we even really know anything about the climate in new netherland in this period at all. Ill ill start with the written documents because ive mentioned them a couple of times i did the bulk of my Research Using translated Dutch Colonial documents that are you know if you want to visit them on paper you would go to the new york state library. Theres a room housing the new Netherland Research center, which has them all in print, the new york state archives and library have these things also scanned, if you want to read originals, which is pretty difficult, or if you cant go to beautiful downtown new york, you can also go a nice website and download pdf copies of the documents. But a lot of there are court records. Like minutes of court proceedings. Theres other rules like regulate all sort of documents. There are volumcorrespondence. The one just was published this year last year, volume 30 has just, just a few months ago, you know, 2023. So there is some correspondence. And thats where you get more details like a person writing the mother and saying how are on the farm . But there is less that than there is like people suing each other, which often doesnt have any reference to the weather. So theres plenty of that. But there are also proxy records which are the the archives of nature. If you to think about it that way. Thats how some people refer them. They are the things that nature makes that are left behind that then we can look at today and infer what the past was like. So the best example would be tree rings. Each ring represent one year of growth, so you can count back and get in one year of information on a number of different variables. Most commonly, the precipitation and so you can figure out like what year was dry, which year was more acid, it all on the tree and where you are. So theres a lot more detail involved, a general sense you could reconstruct it. Precipitation, history, using tree ring records. Similarly if you get some sediment cores like from a bag, a lake, even the ocean drilled down, it was not drilling. Makes it sound dramatic. You just get a tube of of muck. You could figure out what pollen grains or bits of plants and other things like diatoms are, like single celled organisms. That can tell you how salty the water was, what the temperature of it was, what vegetation was growing in an area and then. Okay, if its if its these, thats a warmer climate than if its these trees. So when you combine the two or also the little ice age in general is not just limited to new netherland, its very much of northern atlantic phenomenon, but broadly in the Northern Hemisphere and, peoples roots, recording volcanic eruptions or how many sunspots are visible. I can tell a bit about, based on today like, okay, if we had a volcano at that magnitude this happens. So if it happened then maybe this happened as well. So combining the two together is a way to try to understand what went on in the past, but as a Single Person its difficult or impossible. Have the expertise to really integrate all of that. So working in teams good but i didnt have a background in using the proxy records so i lucked out a bit with being able integrate that. Like for example might and tivoli they on the hudson river they have good sediment records that show a transition in the years leading up to another link between warm, dry spaces and cooler species. Theres a network of tree from the hudson river watershed that includes timbers from huguenot street in paltz, looking throughout history for new york city. And so, for example, like the 1960s was the strongest drought in the area of the past 500 years. And the 1660s through the second most dry years. Wow, this tree rings. So what some areas the world have better coverage than others but thats what was new england has actually i think pretty good records on both sides written and proxy. Yeah i mean thats thats important and you know its it must be difficult bring together those scattered in in the document your record with you know this other kind of this other of record. So its so important to have someone is skilled in both. Its really frustrating. I mean our trees in the northeast are just not as long lived as some in the west. So the records dont right. Cant just look at a giant redwood or whatever record like stocks thats 1750. And im like, i wait 100 more years. Yeah, i never thought about that before. As trees live, i guess as long years in some places. So in what ways did that climate affect the colonists . New netherland on either a day to day level or in the kind of level of, you know, events and was there difference new netherland you know obviously you know this book for our audience you know and kind of stretch from connecticut up to albany New Amsterdam then down to the Delaware River. So theres some different really climactic micro areas within there. So did that where you were new netherland effect how you know what climate events you felt. Yeah yeah. I mean its a its a good point i mean as a person from albany, its interesting to see difference in whether like new york versus albany or even boston can have blizzard and nothing happens in albany. So youre right that it covered a wide area and it wouldnt the exact same thing happening at once but you know the Record Keeping is not consistent in all those places either. So i cant really make it drop conclusion necessarily. I mean people do talk about you know delaware being warmer and any farther south you get down to the virginias or maryland that would be unhealthy because its too warm and to not not healthy for europeans. Let me think there were some there were some events where there like there was one late 1650s, for example, delaware through New Amsterdam, up the hudson valley, were really, really wet lots and lots of rain. So whatever was happening was pretty broad scale tree records you know you can look at drought and fluvial or wet conditions across that wider area as well and and in fact the like 1658 to 9 or horrible on the delaware would not one have been living there at that time and so this region which is near what is now kingston really wet at the same time and rents was like up the hudson river also commenting on it really really wet. So again could have something thats affecting every place at once but that may be the only time where the evidence is that strong for that to happen. And so what in that situation where it was you know, so wet in 1658, the harvest was bad. Also, it went the 1660s, early 1660s in the second tier. So this war, the soldiers were just reigned in. And actually that year it was really, really wet fall, you know, like five feet of water flooding the crops kind of situation followed by that really hard winter really snowy and they didnt socks or shoes so they couldnt pursue the soapies people who theyre fighting with because they like your shoes in the winter. Interesting. There are other examples of the military of western economy being unprepared with clothing. Sure. And then because of all that snowpack there is a huge runoff event in the spring and it was flooded again. So that would have been a pretty bad time. The harvests were bad for three years in a row. Same thing on the delaware. They just could not get a foothold in now newcastle because it was so wet and there was disease as well. But course the higher ups blamed it on the settlers being lazy unskilled, drunk. Yes classic, classic back and forth in a colonial records of. Which person is to blame for disaster is there . Just to get to my last question, just kind of to close, close before we get some questions from the audience. So on broad level, would you say that settlers did do in to climate and weather weather . Very difficult to say. Again like flooding in manhattan. There was big storm that affected manhattan albany and the delaware all at the same time also. And and also Something Like 1655, 56. It was a bad winter and people tearing down fences and palisades to burn. So that is pretty dramatic. But i think that when you were short new england so it may have just been one bad but not Long Duration and there were rules like, okay, its illegal to do that or to prevent erosion on these streams in manhattan everybody has to plank sides of their lot to raise the level of them. But people in both cases just ignored that those top down directives. But there really was not a whole lot of. Hey, we recognize every spring there massive flooding events on the upper hudson. So lets move all of the buildings uphill. It just repeatedly would happen and of the events are very traumatizing. People talk about them, you know, 20 years later. But the destruction and how many animals died. But the things that i do are like, well, theres not much to do in the winter. So thats when everyone will go to school or the so winter maybe wasnt in some ways wasnt so bad or it offers different opportunities. Yeah, the grounds frozen. Thats a great time to go into wetlands, to harvest wood that time to chop wood skatings slaying. Were in horse racing on the frozen was a really popular pastime. So there were things people did like, oh, im going to learn the songs this winter in cold evenings. But there were also so many references to what a great harvest what a great summer. You know, the temperature this year is great. Thank in days of proclamation of thanksgiving and prayer and fasting for everything being great. So theres plenty of that. It just doesnt get written down because nothing, nothing happens. Even though thats when pretty much like everything getting established as a colony, but its not recorded. Im going to get to some questions from our audience. Theres a question is there any evidence of animal adaptation to the ice age . So, for example did anyone remark that animal pelts were thicker or more plentiful, or was it or did those remarks stay much the same over time . Theres a lot on like the beaver trade, a lot of complaints when its really bad, but an acknowledgment that, you know, the winter is the best time to get the pelts because thats when theyre the thickest. No, no trends over time that i this is a really short window that we are talking about 1622, 1664, basically a short window. But there is a small i cant remember the name or the author essentially argues, you know, little ice age people are cold europe. They want beaver pelts, beaver felted hats and coats, which fueled colonization of americas, which then fuels harvesting of beaver or in so kind of a oh so kind of an argument that the climate the coldness in the netherlands itself fueled this this colonization occurred. It wasnt a gigantic revolt the details, but it was kind of, you know, like a chicken or the egg sort of thing with the europeans. But no i mean, there is different rating systems, the quality of the pels, but i dont know of any trend that people noticed since its hard to even estimate number of pelts that were being exported in any given year. And theres another question about fishing specifically. So do they remark at all about what they expected to find in terms of fishing and then what they found . And did climate affect fishing, sea surface temperatures were cooler in the northeast at the time. So that would have an effect on on fish where they are. Nothing about what was expected. But again, in these come to new netherland, its a great talking about this massive schools of fish how piles and piles of oysters that are split across you know so there was a lot of there abundance but i dont know that people expected to be abundance or or anything like that. No fishing it i always when im reading these documents looking for references the Natural Environment and theres very little because again the types records that they are primarily like government level municipality level and they unless somebody suing somebody for access to a pasture or deer keeping my livestock from me, they often dont make make. Theres not a question about sources, which is have you been able to look at any any literature. Paintings are drawing etc. That give you any any insights into into this. I mean and we dont really have unfortunately much art from new netherland in this period. But i know none that i can think except for maps that you can consider those to be art for. But they they might reflect land use, but not anything to do climate and i havent any maps that refer to anything would hint at whether or climate. Youre lucky to even have a little description of what sort vegetation might be in the area. Yeah, its pretty lacking is where the proxies come in and i it would nice to see some more like really finely studies done a lot of a lot of the proxy records are used for like. Big time Climate Change or like what was it like at the end of the last ice . And so getting down to a year of resolution is not that important even though its its possible to get really finely scaled. Its just not, i suppose, useful to people are experts in interpreting them. Yeah i mean of and you know its a shame because obviously theres so many paintings in the netherlands itself of people doing wintery wintery activities that i know historians have used there. But we dont have those that same quality of images for new netherland itself and so well have just one last question someone has asked. Theyre interested about your book that youre working on about climate in in new netherland and kind of to talk a little bit about that current project and and youre working on to get the climate history project i would hope would be the first the paper and then working on this book like i have a lot of material for my dissertation thats about land use land cover again i wrote it jotted anything that has to do with wildlife minerals. You know. Was the western Company Interested in mining at all . Theres some to that making salt in curacao and i think there might have been a thought to try to do that in the united it have to take a look but im trying to think what how people interacting with the natural they werent just there making a Dutch Reformed Church had to walk to the church through you know snow rain theres records of being excused from court because the weather is bad or they cant cross the river that day. And so you know, very much being from upstate new york and experiencing things now. Going to feed your goats 6 00 in the morning when its wintertime, everything is frozen and people are living like that every day. And id like to paint a Bigger Picture of that everyday like lived experience of people interacting with their surroundings. Yeah, i mean, thats, thats such a great point that were all now even, you know, obviously our day day or is affected by by whats going on outside our windows and it was the same for them if not more so. So were really excited to hear more about how that book is