Contribution to our understanding of mass incarceration and racism. Andi so our first person introds lance professor of urban community studies. He is the author of culture and perceptions of violence related behaviors among adolescents the almighty black peace stone nation the fall rise and resurgence of an american gang Natalie Moore and king david and boss daily. The black disciples smeared mayor daley in chicago on the edge. His work has been and published by international, national and local Media Outlets like aljazeera, french tv, canal, cnn, betty, hbo, pbs newshour, wtw, wgn, wls, wall street journal. Chicago tribune. Chicago suntimes times. Chicago reader crains chicago business, chicago magazine and others. Leigh giangreco covers Government Politics policy and civic life and the city is a power elite for crains chicago business. Before coming to crains in july 2023, john greco worked for several years as a freelance reporter whose work has appeared in the guardian. Guardian, politico magazine, bloomberg, the Washington Post and pews state line. She previously the Defense Industry in washington d. C. Thank you very much. Lynn vance. Thank you again much for being here today. Really enjoyed your book. Its a fantastic primer as well for politics in chicago, not just for, you know, learning the history of the different types of here. You opened the book by telling us that two men David Barksdale, the founder of the gangster disciples and Richard J Daley legendary or some might say infamous mayor of chicago had never met. So why profile these two men in the same book. I have to blame it on my sitting in the back cracked that when she you know she gave me an idea shes a Historic Preservationist out of saic and she gave me this idea of when when i when i you know i write about you Street Organizations and the intersection between street gangs Street Organizations and politics she, you know, gave me this of being being little bit more creative in terms of writing process and use being kind of a prototype of an experi science, right . So in interest, im interested in the experi science of, of David Barksdale as a leader of, the black disciples. But then to talk about his experience through segregation. And she gave me an idea of coming with a prototype for segregation and when the light bulb went off, we collectively thought, who represented that prototype . And of course it was Richard J Daley lee. So thats how i ended up combining the two. So it wasnt about them meeting personally. Lee, but it was about them representing. One davit representing the experience of africanamericans who migrated to chicago. Mid 20th century and then daley being kind of that the the the force against that integrated city space and his of fighting for continue segregation in chicago and that is a really interesting way to link those two people because as you and i were just chatting before until i read this book, i had no idea about the of chicagos role in that segregation and that started happening after 1948, after the racial covenants were deemed unconscious tution. All right. And so i just that fascinating, obviously, richard j. Daley was instrumental in that as well. Can you talk about that, how he helped engineer that . Yeah. I mean, it kind of goes to i was really interested in your background in terms of power elite Power Systems and studying that. So we know in terms of how government policy is driven in most cases, it is not just decisions made by local elected officials, but the Political Institutions that help support that system. Right. And so as it relates to chicago, university of chicago has always been kind of the brain trust for local elected officials, and particularly at the highest levels, providing academic and scholars who would give. Kind of the factual, data driven kind of guidance and policy recommendations. And so you have not only institutions like the university, chicago and other universities in that particular Illinois Institute of technology, but you had hospitals who were involved and it was a systemic process. The power institutions kind of worked together to decide the overall city policy. And in this particular case, the big challenge. How they would maintain this influx of africanamericans were migrating and mass numbers to the city of chicago and how on one hand they could be used for the workforce, but at the same time kind of of of of segregated into a space where they did not disrupt the living of other citizens in the city. And just to maintain the system of segregation and nobody wanted live by them. You know, africanamericans at the time and so the university of chicago was one of the first major institutions that existed in, the Bronzeville Community that, when the influx happened, they quickly relocated their campus from bronzeville to todays high part. Yeah, and i think what you get to is that, you know, this happens a lot, i think in politics, especially chicago politics, is it comes down to you know the valuable real estate that bronzeville was sitting on. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, yeah, that was the city was the city was expanding from towards what we would consider the the near southside. So it was expanding from area. As a matter of fact, south and africanamericans live in and its very similar to what we have today in terms of gentrification. Now, certain that at one time were areas where poor africanamericans live now are prized property and so the city organizes itself kind of remove them and them to other areas and by the way, i find it really interesting see something going on like that right now where woodlawn has been a historic Africanamerican Community, where africanamericans who were displaced after the restrictive covenant has always been woodlawn. Im noticing now that the city of chicago is referring to woodlawn as east and west woodlawn. Oh, interesting. Right . Have you guys noticed that where woodlawn now is. Ive never heard that language used before. What i like east but of course what theyre calling east west, east, west line today is now where the obama new center is going to be. You know, its being built right across the street from hyde park high school. So when they use that terminology, it is to distinguish or to separate this area from the traditional woodlawn and now is being referred to east whitman. Im from buffalo originally which is kind of a smaller in terms of demographics also you know redlining and a similar thing is happening right where we have, you know, east side and west side. East side has typically been know you, know depleted of resources and now suddenly theyre calling it east buffalo. Its just rebranding. Yes. Yes. So thats whats actually going on right now. Yeah. The city. Yeah. Again, you talk about how these two characters are linked daily is you know affect barksdale in his community and everything but i think what you also seem to get to the heart of is that at the end of the day, these are guys who both rose up through gangs so obviously barksdale coming up through the disciples founder of the disciples. Yes. But then daley came up through this Organization Called the hamburg association, which is essentially and i thought it association in name only. They were gang out of bridgeport. And it really it reminded me actually theres a podcast called you must remember this and they had a series looking at you know the rat pack and the kennedy is and how the kennedys got their power through illicit means and basically it posits that you know no power in america legitimate that all of it is stolen or you know gained illicit means so you know i think your book brings up a similar question of who do we allow to rise up from the underground to political prominence in america because daley was able to do that the gang. But barksdale was not. Absolutely. And i think daley coming from this this street gang or Street Organization or athletic or association, whatever you would, you dont want to it had the kind of mentorship right irish Democratic Political machine you young irish tough kids to help still and win elections in the 11th ward in any you know in all aspects of you know Democratic Political machine so getting that mentorship and guidance from the alderman from the committeemen and it was a tough neighborhood know bridgeport at the time to call it heart scrabble you know so this was not the bridgeport of today it was it was hood for irish right. And they were tough kids and so but they learned how to use their their cohesive as a as a street gang to gain political power and. I think thats one of the reasons that daley so intent on not allowing any other groups after him to move in the same direction because. He knew that street gangs at, the potential if they got the appropriate mentorship and guidance that they could actually become a to be reckoned with. So he always used his his power and leverage as the mayor to to make sure that groups stay criminalized that is state marginalize that he kept eye on it and that it never it never was able to gain a political footing although it was tough for him to do if you recall the whole story happens during a time of of Political Movement in the city of chicago. So you have the Civil Rights Movement on at the time. You have the black Power Movement on. And so this is those movements become the popular form of engagement that time. So he was constantly a struggle to to to put movements down because he had to leverage of the city. Then he was able to, you know, hold it off until actually began to apart due to the introduction of heroin to the community. Yes. Yeah. So it seems like there was, you know, this this pressure from daley. But i also wonder reading this and also i mean, i like this is a theme that comes up and you films like the godfather you see italians who you used to be this marginalized population eventually rise up. They gain legitimate power does it does it come down to race as well where, you know, end of the day, daley and his man, they were irish. But but they were white. And so they can become legitimate, whereas barksdale doesnt have that same opportunity. Oh absolutely. I think, you know, the whole racialized of it is is is very, you know, important. Its the only factor. Its a major factor. At the end of the day, about power and and because even if you look at the Daley Administration or if you look at, you know, administrations prior to daley, there was always an engagement of. Certain aspects of the Africanamerican Community involved in either at the time the democratic party, the Republican Party on the republican side, this story, youll notice that the beginning. We talk about the the role that the since tax and the chicago defender who were republic at the time and who were encouraging to actually migrate here had some ulterior motives as well they they werent interested building a republican political along with the mayor a big Bill Thompson at the time so it was republicans against the democrats irish happen to be the democrats and africanamericans and the the anglosaxons republicans and it was a back and forth between the two. So bottom line is it racialized and alienation within the within the Political Parties becomes a little bit more intense when it comes to africanamericans. Africanamericans could participate in a political system as long as they stayed in their place. And they they they told the political line. In other words, did not move in the selfinterests of the Africanamerican Community, but just hold a spot as as an alderman or what have you. But to support the political wishes of the boss. And in this particular, daley was the boss. So we had black aldermen. But were called the silent six. They never said anything. Right. They just told daleys line and Africanamerican Community stay by large, you know, marginalized through this process. And the street street gangs, a Street Organizations were attempting to leverage political power outside of, you know, the mainstream political system, right . Yeah. And then the civil rights and black power, they began to get organized politically. Their interactions with the black panthers and black nationalist. And thats when they really became became a lot more politically involved aggressive activists and fighting for, you know, liberation and equal rights in the black community. Yeah. And you talk about park sales relations with fred hampton in this book as well. Can you elaborate on that . Yeah. Yeah. So the black panthers led by chairman fred hampton, the time so the panthers, as we know, were a political a youth political and one of their goals was to attempt bring the street gangs into the movement, to politicize, to make them active as almost like a vanguard, you know, where although the panthers were they were more of an intellectual, they were looking at, you know, chicago street gangs as a real military force and to support work and because were not the panthers were not leadership was not indigenous to the inner city chicago. It had a difficult time interfacing with the leadership, the black gang. So fred hampton, who was from maywood. Yeah but he when he comes he doesnt have those relationships. He makes a mistake a mistake in how he tries to engage first device laws which was at the time the oldest otis black gang on the west side. Hes coming from maywood west. So his interaction is with the vice lords. But he was so young at time. The vice lord leadership, they were older, they were late twenties. Bobby gordon, those guys, early thirties. So they saw fred as kind of a this kid who was really smart, but like, hey shorty, go sit down. Youre making a lot of noise and, you know, you got guns and thats cool. We hear what you saying about the white man, but we were out in the streets and we are really involved in some stuff that will get us killed. Right. And locked up. And so they they resisted. Fred. So fred then moved on trying to engage the blackstone rangers on, the south side and he his his his strategy was a little different, but he made a strategic mistake in going to the neighborhood with guns and when the gang members saw him coming into the neighborhood, some guys come in with guns they were like, what the hell is this . So that didnt really work right. Because the approach was it alienated them and they had conflict plus at the same time, the fbi was sending notes these notes between gang leaders. So saying that they were sending these these outrageous notes to jeff fort, the leader, and bo harrison, saying that the panthers had a hit out for he said he would try to create a divide conquer thing. So that really didnt work. And then the third time was the charm when he approached the disciples who were the adversaries of the stones, and his approach was a lot more personable. You know, he got out, he talked them, forge relationships, and then they hit it off. And so the relationship with the disciples that i write about in the book and the black panthers was, really, they were really, really close. He helped to organize and they he helped start a Free Breakfast Program that the black disciples led in inglewood. So it was a different relationship and they ended up really tight and really they adopted the black tams one time. But because they wanted to maintain their own identity they after a certain point of time people thought they were black panthers. So they changed the color to blue. So they distinguish themselves from the panthers. And then shortly after that, fred assassinated. Mm hmm. Yeah. Something else interesting. Another parallel that you have kind of between the hamburg Athletic Association, the disciples, is you know both of these gangs, there are obviously violent men, but they are also men of faith. Like theres one of the best scenes in the book is, daley is at a meeting with the hamburg Athletic Association. Theyre complaining about the 11th ward alderman at the time, babe connolly. Hes basically not doing his job anymore. Hes not giving out the patronage jobs know doing the doing the like corruption that his constituents want. And one of the guys gets up and complain ins about the alderman and. He says, jesus christ and daley tells him, you wont the lords name in vain. Which is funny because hes in a room, very violent men. But of course thats where he draws the line. And then similarly, you know, the gangster disciples, their original name was the devils disciples. Which one of the members got because he, an avid reader of the bible and carried with him. So im curious, how do you think these men held those two identities in in the same breath . Basically, yeah. A really interesting observation and i think it comes from having been being pious, kind, youre youre a street guy, right. But you differentiate yourself from the rest of the street guys and dont think this was something that daley or any of the other leaders that had these characteristics that they were they were conflict did on one hand, they were, you know street tough guys but they also at the same time were very. Drawn to and inspired, you know, religion, a higher, higher, higher form of of of existence. Thats right. So daley was one of those kind of guys that he i think thats what distinguished him and made the leader because they saw him as someone that wasnt just like everybody else. He was more than just a gangbanger but he had a higher purpose and you notice out you have that same sense of guys who are street leaders like for instance, the best example that i can think of of this is geoff ford was the of the blackstone rangers absolue you know endorse violence and all of what we would call crime and violence. He never used profanity very well you know spiritual would have you know hes a person that you know he entered the house of worship he took his hat off you know he was he was just drawn to the spiritual realm and the rest of the guys looked at him and they thought, wow this guy is different. And you cant use profanity around him. He didnt smoke. He didnt drink. So jeff was a really good example of that. But david was like that as well. And as you mentioned, the guys started the disciples are one of the individuals that was very was known for toadying this bible with him and he would always quote from them. And these were he was a teenager basically. And so when he recommended because there are 12 of us that kind of hang out together will be the disciple, you know, like jesus, his disciples and the rest of the guys are like, i know we know jesus disciples, right . And but how about devils disciples . And like, okay, so that was a compromise will be devils disciples. And when david, who ended up being elected as the first president of the group, was in, he was locked up in juvenile detention at the audy home. When he came home, found out that he was elected and he saw the name devils disciples. He was like, no way, were not going to play devils and disciples. Were going to just be disciples. And so he removed he had them remove that name and eventually that disciples then became black disciples. When black Power Movement kicked in and the disciples at one time also operate, did out of or used at least two churches. I think oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well they did, they did so, but that, that all of them, all of black street gangs used churches as their headquarters. And it wasnt because they made the decision, it was because the at that time that was they were the lutherans and mainly the lutherans were doing a lot of urban community outreach, youth in particular, and not understanding the culture of the community. They thought it was a good idea to have kids from the hood, facilities as kind of like a hangout spot, but they didnt believe because most of them were white men, white pastors were not culturally. So they didnt realize it was a yeah, they did, but they didnt. The culture of like they really didnt. It wasnt really they didnt understand. They they felt wasnt their place to monitor and to supervise and they just their kids and well just let them hang out, which was a really big mistake. But yeah, it was the churches that opened the doors to, them, not them seeking out the church. Yeah. Something else that i noticed in that same scene. Daley, you know, talking with the men at the Athletic Association is, you know, i was curious what you use for your research that whether it was like a recording you could hear or whether you were just sort of, i dont know, going newspaper clippings or something in that scene you write it in the sort of stereo typical chicago accent, you know, saying, oh yeah, with yeah. And and really gives you a sense of the scene. But i was wondering if you got that from your research or that was writing style of research. Mike royko okay. Everybody knows. Mike royko right. And you know, mike wrote in the dialect so in the main sources of information come, theres a great set of archives at the Chicago History Museum they have of the rare squat. And so they kept a lot of the intel that the gang not only the fairs but the gang chicagos gang intelligence and they collected all of these like they they collected information local newspapers mike royko because he spoke on he wrote a lot about daley and his the good old boy group. And so they have a lot of his stuff in there. So thats where i got that from. Where did you start your research . Actually, like i know that you mentioned your wife. Yes well, do you to sort of get on that . What was the starting so so the starting point im as a as a academic im what you would consider an so i do lot of Ethnographic Research which consist of of observation mainly but then do i use a lot of archival stuff too. So i start with and then as a Historic Preservation estate they archives as well so you know in the work that weve done together it kind of made do a lot more Archives Research to start with just digging up all of the archives that you can you can your hands on that give you of the the skeletal for the story and then what i do is i take the skeletal story and then i use the relationship that i have with individuals that have the lived experience or they were members. I go to them and have them kind of put meat on the bones and then i take my person experience as being a that grew up in a community and was around a lot of these guys and then i mix all three of those things together and it really brings it to life. I mean, even in the stuff that happened in the sixties, get a sense of, you know, david walking into a local bar and you talk about the music that is playing. Yes. And every that you feel like youre there when when youre walking with david who also and yet he had a back problem. Yeah he he always experienced like really severe back pains some some some of his family members believe that it was, you know, anxiety you know, he has some anxiety issues a kid some believe it was they have in his family there is some some kind of genetic issue with kidney failure that they experience early in life. So he he had onset of when he when he would get he was anxious that he would experience these really severe back pains. And then ultimately he he he passed from kidney failure. Yeah. Yeah, it should i think you mentioned that in your interview with eazy that know he did not die at the hands of violence. Right. And a lot of people think he i mean i hear that a lot that he was he was shot and and i hear it a in Law Enforcement like kind of archives and whatnot. They say that he was he was a murder, but he was and he he did get shot once accidentally in lost one of his kidneys. Oh, right. But that wasnt i mean, he live years after that a few years after that and but he was already experiencing kidney prior to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well we have about 10 minutes so i think if we have some questions in the audience and if we keep it to questions, not comments, that would be great. We have a microphone there. Okay. African American Voters were very important in getting daley elected in democratic primary in 55 and getting him reelected in the general election 63. Why couldnt the africanamericans get more leverage. And i think mike royko suggested that there was some kind deal between congressman dawson and daley. Were daley would not tolerate the numbers. Yeah, absolutely. I think thats a really good question. A good point. So basically, it was it was it was a political machine, Democratic Political machine. Daley coopted black leadership. Dawson was one of those key people and during that time of patronage. What would do is he would give city jobs, appoint a certain number of city jobs to elected officials. The congressman or the the autrement. And they would throw those things out to people in the community. And in return, those people were campaigning. They got the vote for daley and. That was the system. The members were outside of that they not included in that process. And that was one of the reasons that they began to bump heads with the elected officials, because they felt like they werent getting their fair share, but they didnt have enough political muscle because they were always constantly fighting against or responding, being. Investigated or being. We dont want to say attacked by the police, you know, was a lot of, you know, interaction going on with Police Arrests and so to constantly fighting that thing and it was difficult them to get a foothold in the, you know, mainstream system although they tried tried. Excuse me would you talk a little bit about the red squad, its origins and its role in trying to divide machine opponents . Yes. So the red squad was a a secret investigative unit. It consisted of some federal agents fbi. But then there also were a few city agents coming from the police department. No one would make a really important there was a lot of tension between. The fbi, the federal Law Enforcement and the city Law Enforcement daily hated the fbi because felt like this is his. He didnt want anybody. He was he was the boss and anybody into his jurisdiction dictating anything. But, of course the feds had the, you know, leverage in federal you know, their federal. So basically the risk what was had infiltrated a lot of civil Rights Groups black power to spy on them basically it was information that was inappropriate and they were found guilty of this in as a matter of fact, thats what a squad files come from that they were sued for these documents, these investigations that they were doing covertly where they trying to undermine and you know, what was going on in civil rights organizations and and black power organizations. And so the suit made files in a limited way available to the public and so certain people get access to them but you have to i dont want to get into too much detail. I might, i might implicate implicate myself or in some wrongdoing, but you, you, you can have access to, but youre supposed to sign affidavit to agree that you will only share information in a in a limited way. So yeah, hopefully that answers your question yeah any other questions from the audience. Yes. Oh, five more minutes. Okay so i wanted to ask something else. This is going back a little further to one of the earlier gangs in chicago. They were known as the policy kings and policy. For those who dont understand, it was essentially the numbers. Yes. And the who ran this. They were they were black and they really sort of rose to prominence in chicago. And you write that when the policy kings fell they i believe they were pushed out by the italians, right . Yes, a bit. It left, quote a massive void in the black community that was filled by youth street gangs that wrecked the community. Right. Im the policy kings were also. Yes. So how did they not wreck the black community as well . Was the difference in the way these two gangs operates so really, really good . So for those that dont know limitation explain well who the policy kings were. Right. And they they basically in the early 20th century had a lot of power and influence in Africanamerican Community, the underground economy of policy or a form of gambling. And so a lot of their processes were used to build businesses. They there were 16 independent black banks, bronzeville. During that time, we dont have any left at this point. So but the policy kings, although they were street guys, they were gangsters equivalent to capone, his his group says that Capones Group controlled the underground had the underground economy of of alcohol prior to prohibition. And the prohibition so policy were doing the same thing. But they were more they were businessmen. So the point that i was trying to make is that during that time with a policy ruled they conducted their business businessmen and in a way that it kept the community intact. Right. So they had a lot of leverage, you know, not a lot of violence and crime so, i mean, not a lot of Violence Associated with their work and what they would do as they were they would if they would see kids who were street kids, they were you mentor them, groomed them and show them the professional way to do the underground economy right. You look, youre businessmen. You you you you dress up, you suit and tie and, you know, youre not loud. Youre just, you know, your business. Well, when those policy were killed off by the italians there was nobody left in a community to handle the tough street kid right the policy kings could do it because. They were role models. They they had money. They had the things that kids wanted. The street guys wanted. And they had to abide by the rules and regulations to get. When you took those guys out, its nobody. And so we get this of disorganized criminal activity and thats where we get the rise of black gangs beginning. I think teddy roll was one of the last policy kings i think he was he was killed in 48, 51. Somewhere between 40 would have been around when the racial covenants were abolished, which it seems like two things were happening. The policy were more professional, but those Different Levels government were breaking apart, sort of the underpinnings that black community. Yes, yes. And so all of this stuff then is wide open, it turns into a no mans land and young guys that were coming up had no one to kind of say, hey, this is getting out of hand. Things got out of hand. So we the emergence of the lord stones and disciple and they ruled continue to rule to this day. I want to close i think we have time for. One last question. You know, obviously, we just had an arrest. We had an historic election. Chicago just mayor Brennan Johnson in the spring, ran on a very progressive platform. This feels like a moment of change. But curious, you know, what do you think is the legacy of Richard J Daley . How much changed since he in power and how has remained the same about you, the chicago machine and how chicago operates . Yeah, i dont think much has changed. I think that system is still place and still intact. I mean, hes got a different name. It operates differently, but the segregation exists, right . I think wed all agree with that. And basically whats happening is it has intensified actually because the segregation has gotten so bad. The process the machinery has pushed hundreds of thousands of africanamericans even out of the neighborhoods that they were segregated in. For instance, inglewood, where they stood the the the foundation of this story takes in inglewood during that time had a close to 100,000 africanamericans living. Now its about 20,000 left. And so those the same thing in woodlawn. No one is there anymore. So the system continued to operate and intensify to the degree that these neighborhoods have been the popular. By 70, 80 in some cases. So yeah dont i dont think it is change and i it doesnt appear to me that i dont see any policy that is attempting even try to reverse or try to sustain those who are left in any kind of healthy way. Mm. Yeah. Lance williams thank you again so much for sitting down with us. Thanks for having. Thank you. Sarah peterson is the th