Im here today with the authors Cameron Mcwhirter and Zusha Elinson sin to discuss their new on the air 15 rifle, the seemingly ubiquitous weapon that is at the center of the debate over guns in the united so weapon associate ended with Mass Shootings but much beloved by many law abiding gun owners and gun rights advocates, the ar 15 was once banned in the states, but now is not only legal but is the bestselling rifle in america. Cameron let me start you and im if you can just provide some basic sort of biographical information about this weapon. What does what does a ar 15 stand for . What the term semiautomatic mean . And what are some of the other distinctive aspects of this weapon . Well, thats that is a ar 15 is a term that everyone about. But both sides of the gun debate dont really seem to understand. R stands for armalite and. It was the 15th. Armalite was the Small Company that invented this rifle and it was the 15th. It weapon that they had invented. The 15th device that they had invented. There is some debate as to whether it stood for armalite, the company, or armalite research. Thats thats thats been discussed. But it didnt stand for Assault Rifle which is something that some gun control advocates have asserted. And that drives gun rights advocates nuts. But it does not stand for assault. The question about semiautomatic that is a somewhat complicated but ill try to be fast with. It is a semiautomatic rifle its a gun that has can fire multiple rounds but you have to pull the trigger each time an automatic rifle is a gun. You can pull down the trigger and all the in a magazine would would fire out. So in the united you all you civilian sales of ar 15 are semiautomatic which you have to pull the trigger each time. Now the air 15 is really innovative in that it as rifle it came on the scene in 1950s when it was developed by again by the Small Company armalite and its inventor, Eugene Stoner. It was really space age and bizarre. It showed up because of, first of all, the materials that it used. Stoner used aluminum, fiberglass plastic to make the gun lighter. His goal his his design goal was make a weapon that was easy to carry the way it was designed it was easy to shoot it it used it also the way ill try to make this quick but its similar to electric vehicles where electric vehicles use far less than than than traditional cars. The ar 15 uses less parts because of the way it uses the gas that is expelled from each bullet. Its able to use less parts. So again, its lighter and. All those things contributed, plus the the bullet is much smaller than. The rounds that were being fired at the time by traditional military rifles. So it was a much lighter gun, much easier to shoot soldiers, could go into the field carrying much more ammunition. So thats thats why it was a thats what their pitch to the military. Right zetia say a little bit more about the intended use of this firearm. Cameron referred to the military was intended however it originally for soldiers. What what about it you know made it a particularly appropriate for a military context. Sure. Lets start the story of the inventor and well get to that point through that. And the inventor is a man, Eugene Stoner, and he is a fascinating character. He was obsessed with engineering and problems. He thought about them the time he would be out to dinner with his family at a fancy restaurant and he would start drawing gun on the tablecloth. And his wife would say, why are you drawing gun designs on the tablecloth . Say, dont worry, itll wash out. But whats interesting is that stoner had no traditional training in firearms. He never went to college. This was just his, you know, as a child. He loved explosions. He himself little pipe bombs and rudimentary rockets and cannons before the age of ten. And then, you know, when he came of age, he joined the marines and he worked on weaponry, on aircraft and his love of firearms and devising new types of firearms really blossomed. And, you know, for this story, really wanted to get to know this guy. And thankfully, stoners family really opened up to us for the first time and gave us lengthy interviews and gave us documents about his i can remember walking with his daughter in los angeles to the detached garage where the ideas for the ar 15 first originated. You know, he would go to work making valves and that sort of thing as a machinist. And at night he would come home to his little garage. Hes got prototypes. Hes got drawings all over. And he would think about, can i make a gun better . His wife got a hold of these unpublished interviews that his wife gave, and she talks about how he was very but if you talk to him about guns or planes he could talk all night and he had this unique ability to see things that people stuck in the dogma of gun design could not. I mean people had been making rifles out of heavy wood and for centuries. But he looked at what around him he was making these aircraft of aluminum and he thought, why . I try to make some of the heaviest steel in the rifle with aluminum instead. That was one of his first big innovations. And he can tenuously, continually look to guns, continually look to improve anything he looked at. He was a, you know, a real classic american inventor tale. I mean, he is a guy in a garage with education thinking he can change world. And a lot of our book explores how after idea got into the world, how after revolutionary weapon made it into the world, what happened to it and how lost control of it. Well, who did stoner envision as the user of this innovative weapon . Was this designed primarily for poor soldiers, for police officers, for civilians solely for the military . Yeah, go ahead, kim. Yeah, it was for the he designed it for military and he met. We have a long part of our book, a discussion of the bureaucratic hurdles he had to leap through and the and the and the obstacles that elements of the military presented to him to try to block his gun from being adopted because they had the military its own rifle that it wanted to be adopted. But he he it was a military rifle and it served various design functions. This is again, were about the cold war in which was as its called, the cold war. But it was. There was a lot of brush fires all over the world, a lot of insert agencies taking place all over the world. And this gun was seen as answer within certain elements of the military as an answer to the ak 47. This was going to be our light rifle that could fire high velocity small rounds, a lot of bullets. You could carry a lot of bullets into the field. And that was its function. As usual, say, a little bit the use of air style rifles in vietnam, which i believe if im if im not mistaken, is the main conflict where this weapon really came to the fore absolute. So as we said, stoner designed this rifle the specifications were really at the request of a general named Willard Wyman who was worried about the proliferation of ak 47 around the world that would be carried by, you know, being carried by communist guerrillas. And so as kamm noted they needed a rifle that could fire of ammo and vietnam ramped. They realized they needed a lot of guns quickly. And unfortunately, what happened was that the military bureaucracy in charge, getting his rifle into production made a lot of different tweaks, the gun. And we really into this in the book very deeply you know we search documents thousands of documents at the National Archives and president ial libraries to. Look at what the military was doing. They changed this gun. One of the major changes they made was the type of ammunition that was fired. And in the end that had really tragic results. Once the gun to vietnam, they were guys in the heat of battle but we interviewed all of the sudden their guns stopped working. There is an incredible story of a guy that cam interviewed and, you know, hes attacked. You know, hes in there in the jungle there getting attacked his gun wont work. And he has to kill his enemy. The only way he could with a gun that wouldnt work was with by hitting the guy with the of the rifle and jamming the barrel through guys eyes. Its just frightening. Chilling. And so this became, you know, it grew and grew as soldiers wrote to their parents saying this rifles not working. You know, my are dying on the field here with jammed rifles in their hands and. This became a big scandal that eventually held hearings on. And cameron, is this situation resolved . Well, thats a thats again we go into this in the book but really i think one level it was never resolved because the tet offensive and the vietnam war took over and military was more than ready to. Move on from this debacle. The military tried to repress this information, that the guns were jamming during the vietnam war. But families, you know, as as you pointed out, marines and soldiers were writing home to their families saying, my god, send me cleaning equipment. Send me another gun. Help me. My friends have been killed. And so that erupted immediately. A congressional crisis. Congress did investigate it and try to come to some kind of conclusion where they could find out who was responsible for making those specific changes. But the vietnam war overtook, everything the tet offensive, particularly and everybody scurried. And so the military made significant improvement to the guns and also helped soldiers with training and with cleaning equipment and so then they moved on. So what came out of vietnam was a an ar 15. And we should note that the military designation of the fully automatic, you know, the gun that could fire automatic of the ar 15 was called the m16, which would people have probably heard of . That rifle was far superior to to the one that they initially had ramped up production of. So a lot of the problems have been resolved, but the stigma of vietnam and that rifle continued on and certainly many, many veterans who came home hated that. I interviewed veterans who still hate that gun and certainly among gun owners, the time in america this strange looking rifle was considered bizarre was not the rifle that they wanted to purchase. Sales very anemic at zetia with. Someone getting rich, a result of the militarys adopting this rifle. Who was making the weapon . Who was, you know, who was profiting from it . Did Eugene Stoner end up being a zillionaire . What happened on the economic . The economic story is one of the most fascinating parts of our book, both at the beginning and towards the end, where we talk about the business selling commercial air fifteens at the very beginning. Eugene Eugene Stoner worked for a startup called armalite. They were a subsidiary of fairchild. And whats whats amazing is the guy the guy who hired him is this relentless pitchman, this real oily salesman named george sullivan. And sullivan tries to get stoner numerous times to sign away the rights to his patent. He patented this novel gas system thats inside ar 15 and m16 and several times he tried to get him to it away for basically a song. And stone, his wife would, be so angry. She said, you cant do that. Have to let a lawyer look at this. Eventually word made it up to, you know, the higher ups there at fairchild. And they reprimanded george and they made sure that stoner did get royalties. But what happened was that armalite did not make very much progress selling this unique rifle to, the military. And so they sold the patent rights, the rights to the gun, to venerable old company that everyone knows about in america. So at the time of, the vietnam war, when they are ramping up production, was colt was making all the money. And you can you can see the story. Why this is important, because at the time, the ramping up theres we looked in these declassified documents and a lot of people raised concerns about the switch of ammunition from amateur to bomb propellant. Stoner had designed it for imr not ball and there are documents that say were worried that the gun is not working with this new propellant. Stoner we found a document thats declassified where stoner talked people working on the m16 project and he said, you should not change the propellant its going to cause trouble. But colt was eager to a lot of money and the military was eager get a lot of rifles. And so they testing waivers to call, which is just mind blowing. Know they werent really testing these guns that they were sending over to vietnam. But yes, colt certainly did very well at the time on military contract. Okay. Before we sort of move over to how. A. R. 15 became so prevalent in civilian hands, let me ask another question about the military context. Karen. Do american soldiers use some variant of, the ar 15 . Yeah, some descendant of it or do the rifles that that our soldiers carry into battle resemble the ar 15 and they notable ways. Yeah i mean among the gun experts the term is sort of the platform. The air platform is used to this day with m fours and and variants of m16s. You can see them all the time in our our troops carry them in Afghanistan Afghan troops carry them now theyre in the hands, i guess of the taliban but but the these this this type of rifle used across the world by our forces and and many others now. Okay. And you made passing reference earlier to the ak 47, which is you know sort of the the other dominant platform used in lightweight military applications around the world. Is one firearm better than the other what what characteristics do they share and how are they how are they different . Oh, right. Well, thats like a ford versus chevy debate. Thats never going to be resolved. Right. But we can speak about the various aspects of each gun, what everyone will tell you about the ak 47 is that its extreme, rugged and durable. You know, are stories of people bearing ak 47 under the ground and taking up years later and being able to fire. Now, the tolerances on the ak 47 are much loose. Its put much more loosely, which makes it durable, but also, you know, makes it not such a precision weapon. Its not as precise, not as easy to aim the ar 15 m16. Now stoners gun, you know, for contrast, is more you know, its more finely manufactured, certainly, and better. But its also some people a little more finicky. If you get dirt grime in there. But these two guns certainly stand as probably the two most important rifles of the last century. And before we leave Eugene Stoner behind in the mist of history. Let let me raise something which is not central to the story that youre telling, but i think is a striking enough that viewers would be to know. You describe stoner very vividly as someone who did not have a vast technical background in designing guns in particular and was, you know, largely sort of an unschooled intuitive inventor. And its strikes me as as fascinating much the same can be said about the austrian man invented the what i would see as the handgun analog the ar 15 platform namely the glock, which is named after its inventor, gaston glock, who, you know, had not been in the gun industry, was an engineer, helped run a factory. And through a strange of circumstances, ended up design ing a new very innovate weapon and innovative in of the same ways that the ar 15 was innovative. Use of new lightweight material, particularly plastic, large ammunition capacity, much simplified when compared to then existing competitors, firearms, and something that was initially designed for military but then became very prevalent among civilian gun owners in the United States and elsewhere. Im sure you came across the glock in your in your research and would invite you, cameron, you know to elaborate a little bit on what what ive just mentioned. No i mean we both read your book, of course. And where we learned all about the origins. And i think there is a lot of similarity. I think that and lets lets stick with the inventor. Like thats the interesting thing. Like in regards this today, everyones over it in the as you pointed at the beginning, its this political chew toy where all anybody on whatever wherever you fall in the gun debate people know that symbol now and take it and use it either pro con but the inventor had no you know was was just the sort of the classic america an inventor just trying to and your case someone from europe but but just a guy trying to make it with really no expectation that he was going to become well known or make a lot of money but just obsessively trying to figure out heres a device how do i make it work better and that is a in researching this book as a journalist realized i am not an engineer, i dont have an engineer mind. But i came to really respect that process that theres theres some people in this world who are just thinking they look at an object and they dont just look at an object and and thats, you know, they use it. They look an object and they think, how could it be . How could it be more efficient . And stoner was certainly one of those people hit, but he had a million roadblocks and he never you know, he never to college. He wasnt he runs early in his career. He he has people questioning him where hes working, you know. Well, he doesnt a degree im not i dont know if he should work here but he proves himself and over again because he works harder than anyone else and hes trying to figure out answers to questions that that in cases no ones even asking and by by answering those questions, he shows them something never expected. So it is an american story. But as you know from, invention, once you create something, the inventor very quickly loses control of it, it goes beyond them. Its taken away from them. It becomes a commercial object or a bureaucracy takes it. And thats certainly the case with stoner, it becomes something he makes money off of. But its he he cant control how its going to be used. What strikes me is as so fascinating in terms of the parallels between glock and stoner is that both of them started with a or less with a blank sheet of paper. They were not trying to do the standard thing with innovation is to say to to make an existing product a little bit better by refining it. Instead they really both started from in a lot of ways and approach, which drew a lot of skepticism initially. As youve mentioned, was actually an approach that led to a big leap forward in in the given technology. Lets begin to talk a little bit how the ar 15 style rifle has migrated from the military free environment to other environments and eventually to the civilian marketplace. So you mentioned earlier that outside of the context of being sold to the u. S. Army and, other branches of the u. S. Military, that the ar 15 was not a huge, huge commercial success. The seventies, you know, post vietnam trace its its economic story if you would xisha or at least begin to give us an idea of how it did make its way to civilian marketplace. So as colt was ramping up this gun for vietnam, they decided to make a civilian semiautomatic version. They named it the sportier it. You know, they sold it with a magazine that had five rounds. They marketed as a superb hunting partner. Now, this was not for colt. They had often sold different types of weapons to the military. Going back to samuel, culture and then use the cachet of those military contracts to it on the civilian market. In this case, however, gun owners were not that about the sport. It this civilian ar 15 model at the time hunters they liked their polished wood stocks. They like their gleaming steel. They their large caliber for going hunting in this gun seem chintzy, made of plastic and aluminum. The round was too small a hunting large game, so it really didnt catch on. They made a couple thousand every year throughout the seventies and eighties. And then in 1977 there was an important thing that happened, which is that stoners patent expired and that competition for colt. So a number of small started to make their own versions. The ar 15 at that time, but still the gun did not catch on. And we interviewed these sort of early innovators in the industry, these guys who sold ar 15 style rifles and they told us incredible stories. We spoke with randy lewis, who a Company Called dcms panther arms, and he told us about he would go to nra conventions and display his ar fifteens on the table and nra members would walk up to him and give him the middle finger. They did not want to see that kind of military style gun at conference at the time. That was, you know, it was really a world of the sportsmen and the style of gun, of shotguns, of rifles was really sporting firearms and. This thing was new. These companies that made the ar15 at the time were really kind of outcasts, the industry. And there was a there is a major annual trade show called shot show. Its most important show of the year, gun makers and the people who ran that would to push these guys off to the side so they couldnt display their wares and you know we spoke to gun industry executives, you know, and they told us that, you know, these guys were not, as they said part of their club, they didnt like the image they projected. Now, of course, that changed dramatically. We can talk about that next about what changed to bring it to becoming the most popular rifle in america. But cameron, why dont you pick up the story from there and begin to it, right. So solutia has perfectly laid the groundwork how we how gets to a point where there is this group of outsiders who are selling the gun mostly to collectors, special collectors to people who are survivalists theres those the people who are buying the gun and theyre making money. But then this gun starts take on more importance. It starts its pulled into the national gun debate. And that in the early nineties, its it starts to be pulled with a lot of discussion about as as theres been some you know, a few Mass Shootings start to happen here. And there. Then this gun starts to become pulled into the discussion and. Congress debates the assault weapons ban, which eventually patchett passes. In 1994, bill clinton signs into law, and it includes, you know, that whole debate focused lot on some other guns. The air 15 is pulled into it and added the ban. And that plays a Critical Role in turning this gun into a political symbol of the Second Amendment and. Gun owners start to buy more and more of them now. Then this ban takes. So the ban is supposedly going to you know, you couldnt buy an air 15 theoretically. That was that was the thats what a ban is well in fact as we show in the book, this ban really didnt work the way it was worded the way it was constructed, the way it was. It achieved political up. You know, the will necessary to pass that were the changes the modifications that were required by Gun Companies to make these guns sellable again after ban was relatively easy and within months companies were back in business selling all slightly altered versions of the ar 15. So the gun continued throughout ban. They sold lot of guns during the ban and the whole time it was a political symbol. So ten years later, when the ban is in 2004, the the ban sunsets, gun sales go through the roof and the Gun Companies are right there. And thats a longer story. But but these these outsider Gun Companies suddenly find that everybody in the gun industry wants to start making their because theyre as as stoner designed it to be. Its easy to put together the parts are relatively an and the Profit Margins the Gun Companies discovered were extremely high so did the notorious or celebrated assault weapons of 1994, which i would suggest when you combine it with another law passed right around the same time that the brady background check law that that was really the apogee the high point of gun control in this country moment when i think a lot of people thought that was going be even more restrictive control. But it turned out to be the high point and from you know in subsequent years, actually a lot of rules were relaxed did that that the assault weapons ban in effect have that sort of the opposite impact that it was intended to have you certainly did not much as stoners gun did not turn out as he had probably expected the law that the senators Democratic Senators drafted in the nineties probably did not turn out as they expected. One of the biggest impacts as noted of this ban was to actually increase interest of the ar 15. I spoke with a gun owner from washington and he talked about how he had collected guns. He had in a 15 because, you know, he had served in the military. He liked the gun and he would go take a target shooting. He didnt think much of it, but he saw this assault weapons ban passed in congress and clinton signed it. He became angry, he said, why are you telling me cant have this gun then im not responsible for this gun. Why are you blaming me for all the violence in the cities when im just up here in rural washington using my ar 15 safely and it turned it into this political symbol, which you know increased interest and in fact, the ten years that the ar15 was banned on paper, ar 15 Companies Made more ar than they had in the previous years, almost 900,000, which is just a remarkable statistic, i think what these are makers, too, was that of air has really jumped in response to political events. So if there was a mass shooting and there were talk of more restrictions, gun owners would rush to buy them. There was even a big rush to buy a ar 15 around y2k, if youll remember that at 99, in 1999. And the Gun Companies right there, they would ramp up production and they sell more guns whenever there was something in the news to that effect. So, yeah, the effect of the ban was very interesting in the in so far as it increased interest in this gun whats also interesting is that there were a lot cultural and political transformations around time that the ban lifted that really contributed this gun becoming a huge commercial success as well. You had the 911 attacks and suddenly american soldiers going overseas is carrying the military version of this and that bad from vietnam was washed out of everyones and civilians wanted have this gun that they saw the soldiers carrying the assault weapons ban drops in 2004 and you know as cam explained thats really when the commercial market really started to flourish. Yeah to point out just fascinating. Go ahead. Yeah. Just to jump in one statistic, the atf estimated there were about hundred thousand assault style ar 15 style rifles in this country just before the ban went into. And our best estimate, which are incredibly conservative, are there more than 20 million in civilian hands today. Fascinating. What changed politically between 1994 and 2004 . Assault weapon ban enacted in 94 was, by its own terms, designed to sunset or, disappear ten years later. But of course, im sure an antigun activist wanted to to see it renewed. Why it go away . Well, that is complicated because the Gun Rights Movement was incredibly and lobbying congress, which was by 2004, was dominated by the republican party. You had a president. You also the Gun Control Movement had had this these episodic flourishes, but really had sort of was a lot of it. There was a lot of internal debate going on about whether the ban had been effective, whether it wasnt effective. And there was a lot of lack of political will on. The part of of gun control and that Gun Control Movement. And they really just i mean, it just sort of fizzles out. The they just the congress was republican, but they dont take any real action they just let it die. And each year, Democratic Leaders call for it to be reinstituted, but nothing ever happens. It just sort fades away and the Gun Companies are right there to ramp up production. Major gun makers jump with their own versions of the r 15. Again, its out of patent and they all jump in market the heck out of the gun and the consumers are there. Consumers are ready. Lets talk about lawful civilian uses of the gun and then unlawful uses of the gun in. Do you want to start off by telling me . As the gun becomes more popular as its notoriety people to the gun to to buy this rifle. What are law abiding people doing with the gun you mentioned earlier the nature of the ammunition is such that its not terrific for hunting deer or other large game. You know, you dont hunt with with a rifle like this what . What are people doing with it . Right. So whats interesting is that what drew to buy this gun were for as we talked about number of these cultural and political and then when they got the gun they found that it was very easy to shoot you know its extreme low barely any recoil really easy to shoot and they found it was endlessly modifiable. You could switch out all the parts thats how stoner had designed it and manufacturers would sell. You could replace stock, you could replace the pistol grip, could replace pretty much anything. And so thats why they call them legos for adults or barbies for men. And that became a big attraction. Its sort of like people who like to tinker with their motorcycles or cars and weekend people really like to tinker these air fifteens. Now, just how people drive a motorcycle you know to get to the seashore or they drive their car, you know, to the Grocery Store to get a gallon milk. What are people doing with the ar 15 . Yeah. So that says yeah so about to get to that. So they did their first surveys of air owners in around thousand nine 2010 and this was done by the industry and they found that the number one reason people bought air 15 was for target shooting. So their use for target shooting and another major reason people bought them was for home defense. Although theres quite considerable debate whether its the best weapon for that. And then hunting was low on the list. But certainly some people using them to hunt things like hogs or coyotes or other varmints. But primarily it was used for shooting. Okay. I mean, the platform can be used, you know, you can have higher caliber or larger caliber rounds. You know, there theyre now people now you can make that. You can alter the gun to to fire a larger so you could use it people do use it for for hunting larger animals certainly the smaller round it would be absurd to to hunt a deer for example with a with the small caliber. Okay what aspects of of the rifle make it so lethal mean its not necessarily the ammunition youre pointing out so what about it makes it a very potent weapon. Yeah. Yeah, it was the small caliber we go into this extensively in the book but the small caliber you would its just of you know heres a big bullet, a small bullet whos going to hurt whats going to hurt me more . The answer ironically in some cases can be the smaller bullet if its fired at a high velocity, because stone or discover when you fire that bullet and it hits the human body a larger barrel will because of its its momentum and its size will just punch through a body which can be problematic obviously but a smaller caliber bullet like the one fired by an air 15 tends to go as soon as it hits the body and your and spiral in throughout the body splinter and cause a of damage so that became a selling point to the military that this weapon these smaller you think that theyre going to not as much harm but in fact once they hit a human they can cause a great deal of damage. And that is certainly what weve found horrifically with the Mass Shootings that have taken place. And we profile some of the victims of some of the Mass Shootings. We a whole chapter on one person, valerie. And she you know she was injured in the San Bernardino shooting shot twice once in the pelvis, once in the shoulder and. That absolutely changed her life, focused on a person whod survived. Valerie and she goes through all more than 60 operations. They are her whole life is altered by these two tiny bullets. And the damage that they cause. So they are incredibly destructive when they hit the human body. Heartbreaking story. It sounds like and one well worth worth telling so if if mass shooting in in a very important way brings a 15 arms to the fore. It did so in the early because the concern about the trend toward Mass Shootings what motivated congress in the first place to pass a an assault weapons ban and obviously today while Mass Shootings are still statistically a small part of the carnage wrought by guns in our country, they are certainly the most visible, you know, of firearms. It causes people lot of anxiety. They have mass shooters. In fact, used a ar 15 style rifles in a statistically distinctive way. And and what would draw somebody who has the the horrible aspiration to kill a lot of people in public what would draw such a person this particular firearms issue that is a great question. You know, very heavy, somber thing to talk about, but its important to talk about. And whats interesting is that before 2012, you know, just a small fraction of mass have been carried out with style rifles. But in 2012, with the mass shooting at a Movie Theater in aurora, colorado, mass shooters really to gravitate to this weapon to the point where in the last couple of years, about half of all Mass Shootings where four or more people are killed in a public place the shooters have used air style rifles. Now, what draws these individuals to use the guns in their i need to paint a little picture of who these people generally are they generally men theyre generally very isolated. Theyre often suicidal. And according to forensic psychologists and criminology gists, they are seeking to go out with a bang in infamy and, lash out at the world as they die. And so many of them choose the ar 15. Now, why is that . We read writings of some of these killers and not going to mention their names because its not worth mentioning them. But some of were drawn to the tough martial look of the gun. They thought it made them, you know, made them feel like a man. Some of them said others are drawn more to the capabilities of the weapon. Theres a big trend where these mass shooters want to draw as much attention to themselves in their attacks. And so the way they see about doing that is by killing as many as possible and believe that this gun can can do that for them and the last part of this is they all study other these mass shooters. You know, the shooter in sandy hook, one of the worst Mass Shootings in our nations history where in elementary was attacked, he he studied these Mass Shootings extensively. He had a spreadsheet of every mass killing going back to the 1800s with details about the shooter, the type of weapon they used, how many people they killed. And so there is a real copycat effect that started to occur after 2012. And, you know, by the time you get to the Parkland School massacre, which was awful attack in florida, theres almost kind of a performative aspect to this. The shooter there, he gets in the air, he listens to a song that sort of references Mass Shootings. He makes youtube videos, things. Hes going to be the next school shooter. And so theyre all trying to copy each other this really sort of grim game. One upsmanship and that that is what has attracted these people, this gun, obviously, these people are not very rational. The choices they make are different than most other people. But for some reason theyve been attracted to it. On top of that, let me just add the, gun is widely available. Its easy to buy anywhere. And as we found our research, most of these mass shooters are able to go buy the gun legally. As you know many of our gun laws are designed to stop criminals from buying guns. You know, you go youre a felon. You cant buy a gun at a gun store. But of the mass shooters dont have criminal which raises a interesting problem for us as a society. How do we stop these young, isolated, suicidal angry young men from into stores and legally buying air fifteens a camera . I wonder if theres just one more factor worth mentioning here. Sometimes its such a simple factor that i think sometimes people overlook at ammunition capacity. Could you address that and why a ar 15 style weapon and what would be appealing to someone who is, you know, evil ambition just to kill a whole bunch of people really quickly, right. I mean, magazines. Well, lets go back to the Design Principles that stoner for the military he the large you know relatively large magazines you could carry a lot of ammunition and fire it quickly and easily you know the kid who not going to mention involved day texas had not fired a gun before that day and he walks in wreaks that havoc the there you are able to fire a lot of rounds really quickly and its really to shoot people it has this marshal look people think its this you know people who familiar with guns think its this monstrous gun. Its very easy to shoot. So if youre a young, disturbed person who wants to hurt a lot of people really quickly, the ar 15 is perfect for that now. And also, you have 30 rounds in the magazine or sometimes even more. You dont have to reload so quickly. So that makes it a really efficient. Killing machine. Right . I mean, we you know, the the shooting in dayton several years ago with that shooting that was outside of a a bar, a man started shooting his ar 15 style pistol and there were police right there with ar 15, and they killed him within 30 seconds. But he was still to kill a bunch of people because its so easy to shoot. And as you pointed out, its ubiquitous everywhere. So the current Regulatory Environment is a complicated one. As as you both have explained. We actually have less gun control, less gun regulation at the federal level than we had in the 1990s during the the assault weapons ban. And its effective period, but there have been some that have taken action to ban or restrict certain types of firearms. Could you address that vis a vis ar15, you know, in particular, i cant own an ar 15 at every single state in the United States. Right i mean, its a its a complicated a complicated political map. Yeah, its interesting to see how this country deals with the issue of Mass Shootings and guns as it deals with everything else, which is we see a real split of the country. You see liberals states moving to restrict ar 15 and you see red states, you know, conservative states looking to loosen gun laws, you know, passing constitutional carry. And so forth. Now, in these that have restricted their 15, a lot of these bans also have the same issues that the federal ban has. I live in california, for instance, and even though fifteens have been banned on paper since 1989, you can still walk into a gun store and buy an ar15 it looks a little different and you cant buy any magazines that hold more ten rounds either. So thats a little different. But any even in these states, you know, its not the majority states certainly even as handful of states that ban this gun, you can still buy the ar 15. Now, there are other measures that are being taken on the state level that have a little more bipartisan support, which are these things called red flag laws . And these this law targets the individual and not the firearm and allows authorities to seize from people who are threatening shootings or threatening to kill themselves. And this is a more surgical approach than, you know, sort of blunt approach of the assault weapons ban. Initially, it did have support from conservatives and democrats, but now it has also become somewhat. Are there other approaches to regulation that are promising aside from the red flag laws and the at moment are very unrealistic prospect out of trying to ban categories of weapons at the national level. What else is going on. Well, weve discussed this in the book, but there are people trying Different Things. Ive monitoring, you know, zuckerman and a surgical approach to be where a lot of people are starting. Think regarding the ar 15 because with more 20 million in this country and them easily for purchase you know the majority of people who own ar 15 are not out to hurt anybody has because as one they ar 15 advocate said to me if were all psychos, youd all be dead. So, you know, most gun owners have their guns and arent out to hurt anyone. But the biggest question is how do we keep that this which is so easy to fire so many so quickly out of the hands of people who from people who want to hurt other people and. That is going to take efforts. There are some discussions. Some School Systems are starting to monitor people who are their social media feeds. If theyve expressed violence or, you know, ideation of committing violence. There are various things people are doing to. Try to sort of find out where raising the age limit, perhaps so that younger men would have have to wait to purchase a gun like the ar 15. There are things that are being tried and i think getting to the engineers mind that that i talked about earlier, i think thats where people on the cutting edge, this problem which we all face are starting to think that going to have to approach it like an engineer were going to try this were going to try this its not about whether its conservative or liberal. Its just going to try Different Things and see what works to our country. Safer on the issue making the country safer is the ar 15 style rifles being used in more garden variety crimes . Is it a common weapon in . The hand of a stickup . Drug gangs and so forth . Know so the vast majority of murders in our country are carried out with handguns. And, you know, criminals prefer handguns because theyre easily concealable. So people are getting robbed, you know, drug shootouts. Those are most frequently carried with handguns. And thats, you know, a huge topic that must be addressed. But thats not the focus of. Our book in terms there it whats though however is that, you know, because theyre so popular starting to be used a little more in gang war for warfare and so forth. But still the vast majority murders are being carried out with handguns. Cameron is that does the ar15 make sense . A home defense weapon . I mean, it seems to me thats one of the strongest arguments that gun rights advocates have, which to say im a law abiding, taxpaying, i want to protect my family, my property. So i a, you know, a firearm in the front hall closet. And you shouldnt be able to tell me not to have that type of weapon is the ar 15 useful in that regard . Well, that is a a lot of people will debate fiercely about that. There are many gun owners that i spoke to would prefer to have a shotgun for Something Like that or a handgun you know, i mean, because it because you dont have to focus, you know, you dont have to target you just open fire on whos through the door. But there have been instances that gun rights advocates will tout where there have been instances where someone is breaking into a house and a person takes their, you know, someones defending their home with an air 15. It has happened. The question becomes, is it the most useful weapon home defense and that is fiercely debated there is it would be i know i mean some people say fiercely yes. Some people will say no, but the but the bottom line, which you pointed out at the beginning of your question, which is there are people who say, i have a right to own this rifle and you cannot impinge upon that. Therefore, im going to go buy it and im going to have it on my house. Yeah, maybe. Will, since were coming close, wrapping up this fascinating conversation. And lets raise the question of the right to own gun, which obviously is derived from the Second Amendment to the constitution, which protects the right to quote and bear arms, close quote. That right has actually expanded markedly in just the last year or two as the u. S. Supreme court, now dominated by conservative justices, has. The right and and reinterpreted how the courts will review efforts, gun control and exam and whether they are consistent with. The Second Amendment there was a case from new york state it did not involve an ar 15, but the case that flowed from it will it will affect all gun and of all types of guns. The case is called bruin and. Im wondering if either of you would care to address how that how that case, which said that laws regulating guns will be upheld are valid only if they fit with history and tradition of gun regulation in this country meaning that if a cannot find an analog at the time of the founding of the of the country to the law in question, the law today must fall. We are beginning to that this ruling has had really striking effect. Gun regulations are being struck left and right across the country. How will this affect the ar 15 debate, do you think . Zetia yeah. So the courtroom is going to play a role in the future of the ar 15 in our country. On the one side, as you said the Supreme Court has really expanded Second Amendment rights in this country and gun rights advocates are confident that they are to get the Supreme Court to strike down a state assault weapons ban at some point. I know a lot of these bans in california, illinois and elsewhere are being challenged in the courts and gun rights advocates hoping that the Supreme Court takes this up with its conservative majority and they feel confident that they will be overturned. So that may bode well for, gun Rights Groups and it may bode that these guns will be more widely available. On the other hand, whats interesting is on the civil side, youve seen some progress by gun control groups. For instance, the families of the who lost children and teachers at sandy hook elementary school, they sued the gun maker freedom group, remington called different names for the way marketed the ar 15 that was used in that attack and they ended up getting one of the largest settlements on record. Some 73 million and certainly thats had an effect on the way that teens are marketed. And were watching closely to see what happens in civil litigation, you know, will there be more settlements like that . Will they be thrown out by the courts . So you have these two tracks. You have know cases being brought up to the Supreme Court and you have the civil litigation gun makers. And it will be interesting to see what happens going forward. All right. Well, this has been a really terrific conversation. I think were going to wrap it up now. Congratulations on the publication of your book. Good luck with it. And i think people will be wellserved to learn more about the ar 15, its history and so forth. And i think book is a great place to go