Transcripts For CSPAN2 Cassidy 20240703

Good evening, everyone and welcome. Im brad graham, the coowner of politics and prose along with my wife, Lisa Muscatine and. Its its very exciting for all of us to be hosting cassidy hutchinson, whos here to talk, of course, about her new book, enough. But let me first note that this evening event is a joint effort by George Washington university and politics and prose. The university and our bookstore have been working together for some time now and putting on events. And id like to think that the gw staff for helping make this event possible, so id be surprised if theres anyone here not familiar with cassidys captivating and and pivotal appearance before the House Select Committee investigate the january six assault on the capitol. Her stunning testimony early last year as a former special assistant in the white house who had had personally witnessed the goings on at the highest levels around donald trump provided vivid and details about just how far the president and senior aides were willing to go to deny the results of the 2020 election and and maintain power watching cassidy testify, the rest of us could only imagine at that time what incredible press pressure she had been under. Not to tell all she knew about what had gone on and what incredible courage she and sense of patriotism it had taken to go public with her story. Well, her book now reveals just what she went through. It starts at the beginning, recounting her childhood in a working class family in new jersey, and later her remarkably swift rise in washington to the upper reaches of trumps white house, only to become increasingly disillusioned by the chaos, duplicity and wrongful behavior that she saw having once been deeply under trumps sway, cassidy eventually faced a choice between continued loyalty to the president and loyalty to the country, wrenching as that crisis of conscience was for her. Her book makes clear that going through it ultimately led her to a stronger sense of herself in conversation and with with cassidy. This evening will be a distinguished House Democrat who has led efforts to hold trump to account. Jamie raskin. A consequence institutional law expert, congressman raskin has represented. So i just wanted to say a couple more lines about jamie, but obviously you all know who he is. Hes the constitution, the law expert, and he has represented marylands eighth district since 2017, of course, served on the on the january six select committee. And hes also author of several books and his most recent if you havent read it, you should his most recent there was unthinkable, which chronicled his own trauma in early 2021 as it grieved the suicide of his son while leading the second impeachment proceedings against trump. So i was going to say, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome what you already have on with the show. All right. Sorry about that. We didnt mean to crash the introduction. We know we were motion to go in. And so youre just too excited to be here. I, on the other hand. Well, hello, gw and thank you, politics and prose, for doing this. And. Thank you, cassidy, for suggesting me as your interlocutor. Youre into your interrogator today. When you read the first i know. So thank you to our best congressman raskin for agreeing to be here and also all of you for coming out tonight. This means a tremendous amount to me. I wont speak on behalf of the congressman, but i appreciate your. All right. Now, youve written an extraordinary and riveting captivate book. Ive got a thousand questions for you. Is the number one New York Times best seller and already they have theyve run out of books. One thing i think is very cool about the book is that theres no index in it and i have read that well, my dad used to say that people in washington read books back words. They start at the index and they look for their name. Then they go to the introduction or the foreword to see if theyre there, and then they sort of ruin about a little bit, but hopefully anybody here, they actually have to read it exactly. If you want to know if youre in cassidys book, youve got to read the book in order to figure it out. Look, i want to salute you on the achievement of doing it. I know how hard it is to write a book, and i know this has been tough and grueling time for you in a lot of ways. This is a book which when you finish, you wish a lot more had been said, not a lot less, which is true of most political books, but something so so ive got to i got a lot of questions for you and the the the personal stuff in this book is as fascinating or even more fascinating than the political stuff. And so i want to start with some of the personal stuff you you write that you never your family did not really talk about politics growing up. And yet you grew fascinated by politics. And in 2012, it was the romney obama race and that was when you checked out the debate. You investigated a little bit and you thought that you would become a republican at that point, and you identified will you just give us a glimpse into what youre thinking . Was it like what were the i can read this work on your face now. What were the ideas and the images that the motivated you at that point . I mean, you know, the political Scientists Say a lot of people are most influenced by their own family in terms of how they end up registering to vote or thinking about politics. But what was it that grabbed you about romney or the gop at that point . You know, i wish there was a very straightforward answer to it. So going back to the way i when i was growing up, my uncle joe, who was one of the most formative people in my life, he was in the army and he was really the only person that i knew in my family was fairly skeptical about the government and didnt have the most strong feelings about the government. So i sort of had that sentiment in my mind. But then i had this man, my uncle joe, who did serve in the military. So i had this idea of Public Service and i was fascinated by it and sort of wanted to go into Public Service from a young age myself, although not really knowing what that might look like. So during the 2012 election, i was we were assigned to watch one of the debates. And i remember watching the first debate and listening to former president barack obama and mitt romney go back and forth and i it wasnt one particular issue. And i wish it was, but it wasnt one particular issues that stood out to me as much as i liked what mitt romney was saying about the party agenda as a whole. And it made sense to me. Yeah, at the time, too, i was i was, i think 15 years old. I know it is. I mean, it is hard to, you know, keep reminding myself how young you are, but youre exactly the age of our youngest daughter. Youre 26 now, right . Yeah. And i mean, and whats remarkable is when a lot of these events were taking place, and when youre 24 or 25, you were by far the youngest person in the white house, and you were also the adult in the room most often. But lets just one ive got another question about your childhood, because you describe, i think in a very delicate way, a childhood that had some chaos and instability in it. And i think it was when your mom decided to move to indiana and you went with your brother jack, and your mom. I think your dad had not come out to join you yet for a while. Right. And but you describe how at recess the other kids would go out and play. And you stayed in and talked with the teacher. And it seems like your entire life youve had this extra ordinary identification with older people whove taken such an interest in you from, you know, mark meadows to President Trump to professors, teachers to me, liz cheney, matt gaetz, all those i think thats kind of different. Listing of the credible politicians, but so now you can get as psychoanalytical as you want to or not at all. But i mean, have you noticed that quality in yourself . Have you always felt more comfortable with older people than with your peers . And youve also been intellectually precocious, too. I mean, part of what you describe is being a little bit bored by what was going on with the standard curriculum, wanting to learn from the teachers as much as you could, and looking for always for opportunities to study more deeply, specifically government, public policy, politics. I would say its two pronged with that. One, i was raised in an environment where privacy was power and i think that also sort of carried through my adult life. And thats something im sort of theres so great element to privacy that people should always have the right to remain private. But its a it was different in the way that i was raised in terms of like, you are we very much kept to ourselves. I had your dad mostly right . Yes, predominantly. But then even when my parents got divorced, it was just sort of ingrained in us. Yeah, i had two really Close Friends growing up, but then when they moved, i sort of was like, well, i wanted to be. And i did have other friends my age, but i did feel probably to late middle school. I felt really for the first time that i could identify, i at least communicate better with adults, which i resented at the time. I also was very tall. I have not grown since sixth grade, so i was that sort of packed that i looks like an adult. But no, i everyone on the other side of it too, i felt more intrigued by adult conversation, not just in the sense of what they were discussing, but i felt that i was more challenging and i could have more thought provoking conversations with adults, more so than, you know, my own age. You know, thats not completely universal. There have been incredible people in my age group. Yeah, that well that its almost immediately to a question that several people asked. One person wrote how did someone with your incredible intelligence soul and heart end up with the trump crew and but but before we get to that, i dont want to jump the gun on that, giving you time to think about that. Yes. You had a fight with your dad. That struck me in the book where hes watching the apprentice, which was his favorite show. And you said, i wish that you would spend as much time on your family as you spend with donald trump in the apprentice. And that was a remarkable moment. And what was your take away from the conversation that you had about that and what did it make you think about donald trump in fourth grade . So i was about ten years old. She was ten years old when the apprentice was on nightline. And i wrote the fact check that. No, i so that was towards the error were my parents were on the verge of getting divorced or at least progressing towards that. And i want to preface this to my father. We have a very strained relationship now and even growing up, but he he was very formative in my life and i wouldnt, for better or for worse, i wouldnt be here today without a lot of the lessons, for better or worse, that i learned from him. He taught you to be a warrior. Yes. And i again, up to the readers, whenever you want to make of that. Yeah. You know, he hes a very complicated man, but i do i love him and he loved me the way that he knew how to love me. And with the apprentice, you know, i had this very faint idea of who donald trump was. I grew up in new jersey, so i feel like a lot of people sort of have an idea of who donald trump was. My father owned his own business. He owned a landscaping company. And its not four seasons. So. Its another unbelievable year. And my father was always looking for the next best business adventure business venture. And he put donald trump on this pedestal as this man who built this empire, which now i look back and more recently in the last year and totally lost the correct presumption, but, you know, i didnt really grow up personally idolizing trump, but i grew up around people who either idolized trump as the business matter, idolized the mentality behind that and behind what he had said. So when he was running for president. What i didnt really take it seriously at first, but to it wasnt this i didnt have this four dimensional view of what an actual Trump Presidency could look like based off of my fourth grade apprentice experience. And that was your First Encounter with donald trump. When your dad was watching him on . There was and i remember also when i was like middle school, high school, we would go down to Atlantic City sometimes and what was the trump hotel or one of the trump casinos . Like my stepfather, hes my chosen father. I call him paul. Wed talk about donald trump, too. So he was he was sort of a household name, but not where i was like pushed to adore him myself. So i feel like it was sort of this almost a sense of premonition, like theres this man that i sort of know who he is and thats being touted as this incredible businessman and this american and giant. And then, oh, yeah, i went to the hes doing the first when they make the movie of your book, he will appear as a cameo in those first scenes and in the background, hell be thrilled. Why . Why was your mom the essential person in your family, as you put it . After my parents got divorced, know, a lot of times i felt like it was my mom and i against the world. And they had a complicated divorce. And i did choose writing this book was difficult because i you mentioned psychoanalysis earlier. Im not very big on psychoanalysis. So for me, like when i my life was my life and it was sort of like a survival mode which i didnt fully appreciate or realize at the time, but, you know, we got by day, by day and they had a very strange relationship. But i sort of took the role as the intermediary. And she she worked for she had a very low paying job. She relied on him financially. So i like we we were trying to keep that relationship there. So her and i, in those years, so down in fifth grade, some 11. But in those years after their High School Graduation relied on each other a lot as emotional support, but also as support for our family, just to make sure that we could get by. Yeah. You made a trip to washington, d. C. , and felt this immediate, intense affinity with the city in a kind of ethical sense and a spiritual sense. And you knew that it would be an important part of your destiny. What was it you saw in washington when you came here . How old were you during that trip . Second grade. So after my second grade, going to third grade . Yeah. So she has an amazing memory and she doesnt forget anything which is which makes her a badass witness on capitol hill. So. Youre welcome. And so i when i first saw my uncle joe and my aunts, ive had just moved from indiana to washington, dc. He had come back from afghanistan and moved. He was working at the pentagon. We arrived late in the night and they had an apartment in crystal city and their balcony overlooks the skyline. And i remember the next morning waking up and looking out and just feeling mesmerized with the city skyline. I hadnt even gone into the city yet. Later that day we went and did a walk on the mall, like the washington mall, starting up the Lincoln Memorial and ending at the capitol and the first time i felt this like what i call not like a gravitational pull was when i saw the washington monument. And i, i dont know why, but it was forever been this great psychoanalysis for. The first year. I know that. So we passed the washington monument. We got to the capitol. And i actually have a picture of this. Its quite embarrassing, but i sort of crying. And i looked at my mom and i said i wanted to stay with we moved around a lot when i was a child and i was like, we moved to washington, d. C. I really wanted to move to washington, d. C. , but i remember we were at the capitol. I was looking at the capitol and i, i feel like it was that moment, that kind of clicked for me where i, you know, i had this idea of Public Service. I had been to a city. I have no idea. Again, very young, but no idea what it would look like. But i felt that i belonged here. And every time i would visit d. C. And then leave, it would be a very Emotional Experience for me. So and i sort of lived at the school of like, how can i get back . Youre the first person in your family to go to college. I was. And and you went to the Christopher Newport in virginia, not far from d. C. Tell us about how you actually got involved in republican politics and government service, because one of the remarkable things about the book is how many of the people who are key actors in the drama of january 6th, the insurrection and the attempted coup, were people youd actually met before or you knew before, you know, including like formative years of my very young career in d. C. Yeah. I mean, so i mean, jim jordan was somebody Kevin Mccarthy youd met nancy pelosi, you had a story about her. And so and so how did you get involved and how did you make that rapid ascent into politics such that you actually knew a lot of these players, including liz cheney . Yeah. So after my sophomore year or during my sophomore year of college, i had worked my freshman summer going into sophomore year, worked through sophomore year, but i worked some the summer after freshman year because i had the goal, okay, i need to spend the next few summers interning so i could eventually get a job in washington, the college kids are taking notes. By the way, what youre saying is, are you, for better or for worse, with a grain of salt . I remember it was right after winter break, sophomore year. I went to the library and locked myself in one of the study rooms and i filled out an application for every single House Republican office and sent them out. No idea what i was doing. I just was like, our next year. Me perfect. Im going to apply for your office. I got several interview issues, including one in leadership with the then majority whip. Steve scalise, and was offered to i ended up taking the internship with majority whip steve squeeze then. So this was to the summer of 2017. And when i started working there, i started working with the Member Services team, which is to delve too deep into it, but the Member Services team is in charge of managing the relationships with all of House Republicans. So as the intern i got to know the majority of the republican conference that summer. And, you know, i think that that sort of set me up, too, for the future opportunities, including the next summer when i interned in the office of legislative affairs at the white house. Right. And that was under who hired you that first time when you went to the white house . I marc short was the director of legislative affairs at the time. Yeah. And he also comes to play a role in january six. G so marc short was the director of legislative affairs when i interned in legislative affairs, and then when i was hired full time and the summer of 2000, 19, marc short was became the Vice President s chief of staff and right, all right. So lets come back to that question that my friend asked. You know, part of which is how did someone like you who comes through both in person and in this book youve written as honest and decent and loyal and very law abiding. Come to basically do anything that was asked of you by a president to is im speaking this is an editorial here on my part totally disloyal, totally dishonest, totally deceptive, duplicitous, untrustworthy and so on. So now you have. Yeah. How does that happen . Thats a remarkable story. And its an important story for us to understand in democracy. Okay. Im not trying to read the book. Everybody. All preface it with when i read the book, im so and i love i guess everybody already has a i want to briefly talk about one moment. So i did vote for donald trump in 2016. I didnt put all that much thought into it. I didnt think that he had a chance of winning. And i was dating somebody at the time who was a republican, did not like donald trump for voter, but it wasnt that big of a stretch at the time. I was not fully what i call Like Team Trump or like a believer in the agenda, really, but even so, i went to the trumps 100th day rally in harrisburg, pennsylvania, at the end of april, and it wasnt so much the policy that had attracted me. And again, this is i try to be very candid and vulnerable in the book, and my flaws were i have them and theres a lot of them, but i it wasnt so much about the policy at the time. It was, you know, i was at this rally, i had heard about this affect that it has on you when you go to a rally and you just feel pulled to him. But then as im standing there and im looking around and im looking at all these people who or mesmerized by him and protrump, im one of them, had tears in their eyes, but looking at this man and i but theyre all people that i felt like i grew up around. And my parents voted for the first time in 2016 for trump. So im looking around. Im like, you know, maybe he is the politician that can change things. Maybe he is that person that everyone is saying that he is. But at that time, i didnt my goal was not to work for donald trump. I did want to work in legislative affairs. I entered the legislative affairs at the end of that internship. My goal was to get back to capitol hill. I was offered a job at the white house after i graduated. And regardless of our politics here and im you know, i told the story in a way where i tried to tell it in real time, where i felt like how my mind was working at the time versus how i came to be where im at now. But when i took the job, full time job in legislative affairs, it wasnt honored to serve in the executive branch. And i know see, i realize that might not be the most flattering answer, but i, i was honored and i think that anybody who has the offer to duty to serve in government, whether its the legislative branch, wherever it is, you should take it. I mean, its an invaluable experience. And well, theres a lot of partizans. I wasnt a partizan slinger though, for a lot of yeah, there was a very slow progression to the point where i was the Public Servant and then i was the loyal foot soldier. Gotcha. And so that was kind of the trajectory youre on because theres so much patriotism in this book. Like when you see the flag, when you see washington, when you see the monuments. And so you were carried away with the idea of just being in government and just being able to serve in the executive branch. Right. But did you ever have any misgivings or second thoughts about anything going on when you were at the white house before january sixth . Like, for example . Yeah, there was a moment when youre when Amy Coney Barrett was being nominated to the Supreme Court and did did it even did was there ever any discussion about the fact that mcconnell and the gop had blocked my constitution, merrick garland, from even getting a hearing 11 months before or the end of obamas term . And then, you know, to months before the, you know, the end of trumps term, they railroaded through mrs. Waterford or whatever her name is. They they got it. They got it through like it. But was there any did that give you pause . Did anything like that give you pause . There were is a broad question. There were a lot of moments that did give me pause. And i want to be delicate with the way i answer this is i worked in legislative affairs. I was promoted to work in the chief of staffs office because i had developed a relationship with then congressman mark meadows. But when i took the job with mark, i was very clear with him that i was working for the office of the chief of staff, not chief of staff mark meadows, because i saw myself as what i was working for the institution, not the individual. And that was a clear and distinctive sense to me at the time. I wasnt fully aware, you know, there is this very strong sense of loyalty in the trump administration, and i saw myself as loyal to the government and to the office and to the job i had. At some point, i those lines became blurred and at some points it was very, very blurred. So that being said, there were things that gave me pause, especially like during the coronavirus pandemic, and when we would go to the hill to meet with leadership of Speaker Pelosi and chuck schumer. But the way i saw my job was i had a job to do and whatever i had to do to get that job done, i wasnt there negotiating policy. I was there provide trying to provide counsel to the principles that were tasked with in the way that i saw my job was the better job i do and the more sounding sound counsel i can provide them with, the better this will go as a whole, if that sort of. Yeah. Question and and you talk about covid a lot about the mixed messages that were being sent and the strange signals and disinfectant getting injected. Yeah, yeah. Just saying that. And then you all ended up getting it. Of course you got it after trump got it right. Theres no good time to get coronavirus. Let me be clear. Yeah, but at that moment, i caught coronavirus right after november 3rd. So we had just finished the campaign loyal to a fault. Yeah. So i had a nice ten day little recess. Well, all the election stuff is starting to go underway. So i got back and then im in the middle of what the heck is going on . Well, so lets talk about that. You know, what were the warning signs for you . Prejean, during sex about what was going on . I mean, you record there were a number of closed door meetings that you were closed out of, but did you have an inkling that there were, you know, there were these various streams of coup and insurrection that were leading up to an explosion on january 6th. At the time. And at first. So at the time. So im now im talking about november were midnovember 2020 through mid december 2020 at the time . No, because at that point in my mind, we were filing lawsuits and just for the record to i think any candidate that thinks that the Election Results are close does have the right to File Lawsuits where thats the right way to do it. Its accepting. Yeah. What the lawsuits say. And were starting to defy the rule of laws when it starts to get a little fickle. But so at first i, you know, i had i and also the mr. Trump before the election had talked to me sarcastically on air force one, one day, but saying, like, if the democrats steal this election from us, well, he moved on to florida with me. So i had no idea how far it was going to go. Yeah, just over empty. There were lots of indications and i think you helped to tip us off to some of these where trump was saying things like, youre Walking Around and just harrumphing. I cant believe i lost to this guy that there was a kind of a deep, personal recognition. He would get to a point where then he would just concede and be defiant about it. But yeah, no idea that it would get to the point that it did. I would say, though, december 18, 2020 was probably the first real turning. And again at the time, i look back now and i see how things lined up and i well, one over my mind, but december 18th was the night that there was an Oval Office Meeting with dinner. I was going to say, mike flynn, mike flynn, the former overstock kcom ceo patrick byrne, sidney powell. And they were discussing, invoking martial law or the insurrection act. And that was the first moment for me in the days afterward, just kept getting more astounding. But again, you know, we were still dealing with a lot of issues that were just january six, really. We were still working to pass the ndaa, some people were trying to work on the peaceful transfer. So it wasnt like my days werent only consumed with january six things, but. December 18th i think was the turning point where it was like, okay, things might. Things are kind of getting a little. Yeah. So your mom who who is a hero of mine in this book anyway called you and said dont go to work on january six of fairly far. So december was december 19th. The tweet was sent out that be there will be wild on january six. And candidly, i have some family members who are would associate themselves with some of the more extreme right, what i call the more extreme right wing groups such as kiernan. It was early january. My mom had a i probably from speaking with my family, if weve ever had a very indepth conversation about it. But she knew that a lot of people were coming to dc for this rally. I knew we were having a rally, but the view was, okay, its a rally. We also had one in georgia on november or. January 4th, but she was really nervous about the rally beforehand, up until the night before and morning, she tried to convince me not to go to work, but for me, like i had a job to do right . Had to go right . Yeah. Well, and so maybe thankful i did. I dont know. I mean, one of the dramatic moments in your testimony, the select committee on january six is when you described trumps reaction, the secret services insistence that people coming to his rally, which was kind of the warm up rally for the march and, you know the big scene at the capitol, theyre determined action that people have to go through the mags that tells that story, if you would, from your perspective about what exactly happened. Because i think that was a moment that was electrifying before electrifying for me that morning. Yeah, that was like the first moment i had that morning. I was like, holy was happening today. So explain that. And you actually talk about the mags a lot in the election period leading up to it and how it were always an issue during the campaign and now they were sort of the bane of my existence at the time. Well, thats short for magnetometers. And thank you all. I think you all had to go through magnetometers or at least get some. Thank you all. I know youre all here for us, but i appreciate the fact that you were willing to do it. They came in to tell us that we wouldnt be starting late because people are going through the magnetometers. And i heard cassie say, tell them to take down the f. And mag says. A private moment, sorry. On that. The day i had to go off and testify, we were in the car going to the capitol. And i said to my lawyers, im like, im the f ing witness. Take me back to ask them for that. Oh, weve heard that phrase and he a it. So i got a dark humor very seriously, especially today as were approaching this next election cycle, which is come like came like that. No, i so i got to the white house that morning and, you know, were driving through all these crowds of trump supporters. This is sort of weird. So i go into the deputy chief of staffs office who receives security updates and he starts reading the emails that he had been receiving about what the secret service deemed as weapons, and some of which are very clearly weapons. But things like flagpoles, which maybe not weapons, but like spirits of the disciples, thats thats a problem. Secret service. Ive seen guns on people. So then when we get down to the ellipse that day, you know, the i mention that the magnetometers were always an issue during the campaigns because the president or mr. Trump always wanted the rally space to be full for a picture it wasnt that day because all the people who were trying to get through the mags had quote unquote, a secret service team with weapons that they couldnt get through the magnetometer. So the former president had said, take the effing bags. Theyre not here to hurt me. Take the fing mags away. They can march to the capitol from here. Thankfully, the men and women of the secret service knew that regardless that they were there for him or not, that your daughters have to say. But yeah, so. Well, take us just a little bit into your mind about what was taking place over course of the day. You were presumably watching on tv what was taking place at the capitol. You saw the Vice President flee. You saw the house and the senate evacuate the chamber. Youre hearing to hear i sometimes have trouble deciphering just what was actually televised at the time because some things were televised later in the day. You you know, on this day, i mean. It will never be i dont like it because the emotion was they right . Because it i felt so helpless that day because i have such a connection with the institution of congress. And i knew so many of you, so many staffers, but also like seeing i described it in the testimony, thats the best way i can think of to describe it now even. But it was sort of like watching a bad car accident or being in a bad car accident where you it starts to happen. Theres nothing you can do to stop it. And you saw the officers being beaten and bloodied and some things were on twitter again, like it just that. Yeah. And the being back at the white house was sort of just we are at the ellipse. We knew that the security barricades, the bike racks were starting to be breached. We knew that the Capitol Police were overrun with the rioters and the president still wanted to go to the capitol. We get back to the white house despite his resistance and you as i was sitting at my desk and im sort of back and forth, but every minute of that day felt like a lifetime because it was sort of like waiting for the next bad thing to happen in one state. Actually got through. I mean, thats when i think. How real it was hit me. Although i sort of saw it going in that direction for a while, but my mind immediately went to, i dont want to fearmonger with it, but my mind immediately went to like these people dont know who these people, meaning the rioters dont know who most of these members of congress are. They dont know who journalists are. They think that journalists are the enemy of people. To me at the time i was that they would have had no bounds and if they had gotten i was fearful members of congress. But anybody they were they were chanting hang mike pence. And they knew exactly who he was. Exactly. They mean they know who Speaker Pelosi wasnt, even if they you know, i think maybe jim jordan would have been spared. I think they probably could have recognized jim jordan. But, you know, if you had your pin on like it was just it was frightening being on the inside, knowing bits and pieces of what was happening at the capitol and also knowing that there wasnt much that i could do to stop it. And it was a very helpless feeling. And like, its something that will always live with me. Yeah. So dont want to. Im sure youve a follow up, but lawyers play a prominent role in your story here. You were in desperate search of a lawyer. You had little or no money. You dont come from a family with a lot of wealth and your savings were meager. And, you know, you could have given everything you had for a days worth of Legal Services in washington. And so you were looking around for a lawyer who would do it for probono or low discount on a payment plan, like a pay away plan. You did want to end up being, you know, bought and paid for witness under the trump employee. And yet you ended up with a trump lawyer. And thats a chapter that i recommend highly to people in law schools to read about what its really like to need a lawyer. Leave it to the lawyers, to all the conclusions through the right. Well, so you ended up with some great lawyers here, one of which is here, mr. Bill jordan is here, and he worked with him and here in denver and lisa bradley. But but but that thats the the favorable denouement of the whole story. It started out bad because you did end up going with a lawyer who was clearly from trump world. I think i maybe even went to school with this lawyer stuff. Dan passantino right. Is a thats right. And you were told to limit your testimony to as few words as possible. And if you couldnt remember every single detail of an episode to say you couldnt recall anything about the episode, right . So you got some instructions that were well, borderline. Thats a problem for them to deal with i guess. But how did you experience that as somebody being called to testify to backpedal slightly on that . Oh, in candidly after january six, i was very outspoken and in the final days of the administration that we the administration was completely at fault for what happened that day. My mind outspoken where . In the one hand. Yes, in the white house. So it was not a secret. How i my contempt for our for the fact that we were complicit and we had we were the only reason that that day happened. But i you know what . Still, i think we should clap for that. You know. Oh, i mean. Thank you for this. Its its sad that we sort of have to thank you. Its washington. You get a standing ovation for telling the truth. So, you know, okay, yeah, we should have it as part of a big part of the reason i decided to write the book, because were in this, in my opinion, in this crisis of accountability. And we need to elect leaders to office and people in positions of Public Service who shouldnt need to be for for telling the truth that it comes with the job. It comes with swearing the oath. All that being said, i just want to point this out to you, because i dont want to try to play revisionist history. I was still planning to move down tomorrow lago with the former president. And at the time, i felt that i he needed good people surrounding him and i felt that i could be a sound voice. We if that fell through, he kept me on payroll mysteriously. His generosity is not his strong suit. So thats a big question mark. But he kept me on payroll for seven, several months. I that period to sort of decompress and sort of saw how things were unraveling on capitol hill, knowing full well that i if i were called to testify under subpoena or voluntarily, i wanted to be forthcoming with the committee. Whatever committee had been formed. But so when i actually was subpoenaed to testify, i started this mad search for an attorney because i in my mind i had been in trump world which is an advantage and a disadvantage but i know that accepting Something Like an attorney from trump role at that juncture i had worked for at that point ten months to sort of separate myself very slowly from the world. So there wasnt a target on my back. So i wouldnt appear disloyal. But in accepting Something Like that is a form of currency, you owe more than just what they expect you to say. All that being said, i was i did have the trump appointed counsel and i did receive counsel from that attorney. But i also accepted it. And i you know, i accept responsive ability for that. But i also think thematically, when we look at the cases as theyre unraveled now, i think of several of my former colleagues. And if they werent my former colleagues, several people who are reported to and that i know have trump appointed counsel. And its sort of a theres a bigger issue here. And i was very fortunate to be able to find my incredible Legal Counsel who i really credit. I dont say this lightly, but like with saving my life, maybe not in like a like actual life or death way, but saving my life and steering me back to the right side of history. Yeah. And these lawyers from austin bird are 100 pro bono. I was 100 from so. And besides besides that sue, i mean, they offered me and gave me the sense of community and belonging and acceptance that i hadnt known for so long. And i felt like and so to this day, sometimes feel like i dont deserve. So its again, its i have been very fortunate to be able to tell my story from the other side. Now, its not without people, you and liz cheney and the committee and also my attorneys that gave me that second chance. I just have a couple more questions for you, then im going to ask a few more from the audience because believe what . I think we might be running out of time. What was your experience like as a witness on that day . Sometimes people describe to me being a witness, like watching themselves from the outside, like they feel a little bit dissociated by by it. They feel like its really happening in someone else. But what was what was your experience of the day where i should say you acquitted yourself remarkably well and everybody across the board was totally convinced of your candor and your honesty and you i think you changed millions of peoples minds, getting some. Thank you. As well. For starters, when i switched Legal Counsel, i was very clear clear, but i didnt want to just say im not at all. I was like, i will go back. I want to be completely forthcoming. The committee was very generous. They gave us my transcripts. We went through line by line. We corrected, we added, we added a lot of filler where i knew more than what i had led on to be. We even went through did spell spelling, spelling corrections very, very thorough. Going back to my old transcripts, still didnt want to testify like i was like this is going to be useful for them. Theyll be able to use this information to get other witnesses. When i learned that i would be a live witness, i was like, the fear of god was shocking me. No, no, no. Dont want to give up my privacy and my identity. But i did come around to it slowly and even up until the last minute, bill had to physically push me out very gently, but pushed me out of the hold room. I had made peace with it in the eye, recognized several elements. There was an importance to having somebody who had been there who was willing to speak truth to the acts that occurred that day, not just on january, but afterwards too. But it also was important for women and little girls to see that were living in this society where unfortunately, men many years my senior are either avoiding subpoenas or were at the time pleading the fifth and just avoiding all forms of accountability. And, you know, not to get on a feminist angle here, but we need more women in government for that reason, too. And. But sitting at the witness table, i was very afraid, very cognizant that every move i made could and would be scrutinized. But i also was had this overwhelming sense of peace, because i knew that i was doing the right thing and i was sitting in front of a die as of people who, in my opinion, are some of the most moral and ethical politicians, but human beings that are in washing ten in this era that start from this era. Well, youre youre a great witness as i said. And i was thinking when you testified about mark twain, who said, if you always tell the truth, you never have anything to remember. You know. And some of the people we talked to always had to remember what they said. The last time and, you know, and so on. And you came in with the conviction, truth and i think that communicated really well. Well, we need to talk a little bit about the future and your future. Cassidy hutchinson everybody wants to know what youre going to do, makes you so could you see yourself actually going into politics and . Is there a Political Party that fits you anymore . So youre a chucky. Too, as their first question, i right now do not see you say go into politics. I still believe that what i am doing right now is tangential to politics. Its actually integral. To politics. Okay. I just wanted to making the separation between like i think been running to have a job on capitol hill right now. I think probably not the time for me. I need all of these people are asking, would you ever run for office yourself and go your stage, etc. . Of course you. I would not say no because i had said no to a lot of in my past, including testifying live and look where i am. You know, i i on this is honestly i dont have the ability to have that sort of hindsight right now. I think what im focused on right now is sharing the message in this book, which to me much greater than donald trump. You know, donald trump is an element to the book, but its like, say, if donald trump fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, this, there still would be a problem that exists and it still is poisoning our political systems and i am a Firm Believer that we need a healthy Republican Party and a healthy democratic party. And i hope that there is a day that we could sit here and have a very well thought out debate as a republican. Yeah, well, no, were just gonna sit on jamies jvc so i guess i. I think its i sort of wish sometimes i was jaded enough to say, i know im going to go move somewhere else and live a very but what we are facing right now is dangerous. And its, in my opinion, one of the most grave threats are democracy has faced in my lifetime, perhaps in recent American History. And it doesnt just require for us and congress to Pay Attention to that. You know, i i hope with this book and with the platform that i have now, i can help open peoples. And i hope that people will listen because its its important for more ways than just determining the outcome of the next president ial election. Were quite literally fighting for the future of our country and our republic. Democracy on earth. Yeah, correct. And its its not its we are its were an experiment. Were not were not getting nothing here. Guarantee, you know. Well, why is your book called enough. House reader right now . See this question . Its a very subtle question. But theres a very nuanced there are many new answers. Short answer with that. But i touched on it briefly earlier. I tried to write the book as i experi inside my life and how i got to this point. I try not to assign adjectives to people, places, things or events. Tried to just tell things like how i experienced them and was mentally processing things at the time. There theres a the straightforward answer with enough is. I reached a point where enough was enough. It wasnt just enough was enough with my former trump world council, i reached a point where enough was enough of not being who i was, not fulfilling the Public Servant in myself, who i saw myself coming to dc and becoming, and i had had enough of this era of just living this lie. And i couldnt i couldnt do it anymore. But, you know, there are more nuanced meanings and i would love for you to leave it up to the reader to interpret some of those, but, you know, i also think the one other thing on that, jamie, sorry to interject another question. You i also want people to know that their voice alone is enough and it doesnt require a mass to come out and say enough or say whatever you may say to stick up for yourself and i, i would love to give a shout out to liz cheney, who, you know, i have my Incredible Team of attorneys, but liz cheney was really the first person that. An extremely courageous individual who has the heart of a founding father and just her love for our country is something i think that we all should look towards as as well as congressman raskin. But it was it was liz who reminded me that its like i am enough and i am enough to not only speak truth to power, but to hopefully create change because we cant keep surviving as a nation. Thats beautiful. Some people want to know about the watergate figures you identify with and i know you made a very special friend in this process, mr. Butterfield. Yes, alex. So i the committee had very generously published of my transcripts where i had a little bit of a mental breakdown one evening and i was able to read in real time that i how far gone i was. And i had wanted to get back to the right side of history, and i was thinking about watergate, like there had to be somebody, you know, i had knew i knew who john dean was by thinking, like, how do you somebody else who had a similar role to me who didnt play this big consequential role in the hearings, who wasnt a lawyer, wasnt a lawyer . Yeah. So i started googling. Those who had testified came across alex butterfield, who we had identical titles and he worked in the office of the chief of staff. He written a book. So i was like, perfect. He testified. He left. You didnt try to make a name for himself. Now, my face is on the cover of a book. So he did work on this book with bob woodward. So i ordered several copies of it. You could see, i mean, this tabbed. I wish we could pass it around, although its a little embarrassing but he really was the man and it seems now looking back it was should have seemed so obvious. But i didnt really have anybody in my i was in a very dark period of my life. And this period of almost complete isolation of people who i wasnt isolated from were my former friends in trump world, who i wasnt being my authentic self with. So when i read this book that alex had worked on with bob woodward, hes alex became my friend in these pages and i felt i could relate to him and his journey, but also like who he was and he inspired me to then, you know, start to try to correct course and try to find a second chance. So you know, there are many people in this journey who i pay tribute to, but alex is one that he is just another incredible american. And but, you know, its its unfortunate that that 50 years after watergate, were in a position where were dealing with the results of another corrupt presidency. Yeah. So. One person asking the question, which is how do you have the poise and maturity to handle your job and your testimony. Because you had not left at that point. Meaning trump world or during the testimony . Well during the testimony i was pretty much offered. You are but what werent they still entertaining kind of the delusion that you might watch your words and you know i dont know. I thought i would leave that question. Yeah, but i from my perspective, i think the moment that i had retained new counsel, they probably had a fairly good idea. Not that i would testify like that. I was willing to be more forthcoming. Yeah. Id also backchannel for a third interview too, without my former attorneys knowledge at the time. Right. With one of my good friends, alyssa farah griffin, who had been outspoken about jerry sex from january 7th forward. So it wasnt probably some big secret, although i think that they enticed what attorneys they probably expected to remain loyal its interesting story about washington how much government really does depend on bright young people who come in and really do the work and not to be you little, but youre im sure you have an incredible staff and maybe not as young as i was. Yeah, but no younger members of congress and everybody, they rely on staffers. Yeah. Yeah. Its also important to be able to provide an environment to those staffers where they want to aspire to be politicians and to lead by example. But i mean, its an incredible object lesson in how it was you in that case. It was the young staffers who were the ones who were insisting upon a loyalty to the truth and ethical principle. And we might never have known the truth were not for you in other people. In a similar situation, because the jaded ness, as you put it, in the conspiracy of lies was so fierce at the top levels and continues to this day. And there are still people who believe the big lie, although its been completely debunked, just in case you think that there are people who still believe the big and those minds will never change, you know, i think with me coming forward, that was something that i had to accept like there are and movable people but there are people who either might believe what hes saying or they might believe that donald trump is they might believe donald trump is better than joe biden. The not so with platform i have now like all i ask is for people to listen to and to listen to people like me because its the people who are on the inside. And i think slowly were seeing people start to break and speak the truth. But to listen to People Like Us who werent never trumpers, who donald trump would not have considered what he calls rinos and that also see the grave dangers of what we endured at the and what continues to endure today. I mean, look no further than truth social but in the way that some of these cases are playing out. I mean, the department of justice has brought the largest case in American History against the former of the united states. And thats a really sad place for us to be in. But i you know, i hope the people listen, because in this next year, its all of our responsibilities to speak the truth and to speak to people in a way where they feel welcomed to. Have those conversations. Because i know in my position for a while i felt i did want to split away from trump rule. I saw how egregious and terrible the things that we had done were, but i also was sort of those with shame but scared to leave. Because i felt like if i do leave, im going to be questioned and ridiculed and people are always going to question my intentions, which i think to a degree is fine and i welcome that. But we cant shame people out of coming forward. Thats right. Thats right. Well, thats a beautiful way for us to end this. You know, i want to thank you for your moral courage in speaking so candidly and openly about your entire life and your experience and your family and your work and your education and i want to thank you for your love of our beautiful country. And thank you for your patriotism cassidy. And i want to thank you for your willingness to keep growing and keep learning and remember, theres always a home for you in the democratic car. Now were going to hear. You. Thank you. Politics in droves. Thank you, gw. Thank you for asking me everything. Check out her book and mr. Ross coen has another hi, everyone. Welcome to zabars bookshop. Thank you all for coming out tonight. Were here to celebrate the launch of searching for savanna by mona gable. So welcome, mona so mona is a freelance writer based in los angeles. Her work has appeared in the atlantic outside the l. A. Times and many others. Her article in