Transcripts For CSPAN2 Author 20240703

Executive. At nbc she covered political coverage and long time producer of meet the press with tim russert. And the manager of nbc political news programming and currently shes executive director of the women in Politics Institute at American University and a faculty member in the school of Public Affairs and she also has provided on air analysis to several Television Networks including cbs news, msnbc, nbc news and cnn and included in washingtons 50 best and most influential journalists and gqs powerful people in washington. [applause]. Thank you all, its so nice to be here in jackson, mississippi, not too far from my hometown in new orleans. I see an lsu shirt here. Go tigers. Go tigers. laughter and i feel like since were at the Supreme Court, i feel like these guys are under oath how, be ready for an interesting discussion with our great i have no recollection of that. [laughter] were here to talk about inside washington, the view from washington were obviously approaching a big political year. Of course, which is already consuming headlines across the country and will even become more so and we have a great panel here today to talk about that and their books. I want to start just an introduction. Jay garrison on the end is the White House Correspondent for usa today and he also covered that 2020 president ial race as a National Correspondent based in boston. So thanks for being here, joey. Thank you. [applause] next is ben terris, a writer for the Washington Post spent years covering washington, in the back rooms, on the hill and crazy political conferences all of which are featured. He brings this wild group of characters together in his terrific new book the big great, Party Animals and true believers trying to win in washington while america loses its mind. [applause] and we have jonathan martin, who writes a reported column for politico. After spending 10 plus years as a National Correspondent at New York Times, he is the coauthor, along with his colleague alex burns of the New York Times best seller that came out last year, this will not pass, trump, biden and americas future its out now in paper work and ben and jonathan are going to be signing copies of their books at 12 15 in the signing tent. So hope you will come out for that as well. So, when we start, jonathan. Yes. Your book, this will not pass, its not passing in many ways and it looks like we may actually have a sequel or a repeat. Sometimes sequels are not necessarily as good as the first one. Are we going to see americas Great National kidney stone. Are we going to see trump and biden again . First of all, thank you for having me back, its always a treat to be in mississippi especially with this Great Company and fun to see so many friends in the audience. I think today as we sit here in august of 2023, it does appear that were likely to have a rematch of the 2020 election between trump and biden. Ive covered politics enough to no that how things appear in the summer before a president ial Campaign Begins doesnt always hold up and things do change. And so, im now one of the people who thinks that oh, this is a done deal, its going to be trump and biden, we can all sort of take a nap for the next six, 14 months. I think theres still uncertainty out there as to the stories or expressions once said that the future out all of our certitudes. Theres all manner of events to take place between now and next year, some of them, to borrow a quote from the other great philosopher, donald rumsfeld, some of them are known unknowns and others are unknown unknowns, and the known unknowns are most obviously the former president facing nearly 100 counts four separate jurisdictions next year. Thats the biggest known unknown, how thats going to shake out both in the primary and the general. And then, you know, other stuff that we dont know whats going to transpire. So i think its early days yet. And i think there are a lot of democrats who thought joe biden would, in fact, be a bridge, as he said famously in 2020. Its a pretty long bridge and they havent gotten to the other side yet. But the bridge over ponchartrain, you keep going and going and going and one of these days we will be in new orleans. Its a long bridge both ways. So, i think its taken awhile and more about this, but i think that biden is determined to run for reelection. Its hard to walk away from that job and even if you are almost 81. Its a job hes wanted for his entire adult life so its hard to walk away and on the republican side, obviously, trump is a dominant front runner right now, especially national surveys. I think its a more competitive race, and we can discuss this further, in some of the early states, but obviously he has a strong advantage mainly because theres no yet unified opposition to him. Which is the same thing that trump had in 16. He took advantage of the fractured field in 16. If the Party Tonight going into New Hampshire and iowa hell have the same advantage again. Against fracture field. And let me you. Gambling on politics by the way is prominently featured in this book. If you didnt think you could gamble on politics . You can. So let me ask you if youre in to put a wager on race. What . How do you see it . Shape up in terms of if were going to how do you see shaping up in terms of if were going to see trump versus biden . First book i spent like two years with them cut a bunch of lunatics. Also a lot of very, very confident people who are sure they knew was going to happen. Like they literally would bet on elections and whether senators would come back from a stroke by certain date or whether legislation was going to pass. It was all very cynical antenna awful to watch him away and there are so confident and they were almost always wrong. Including on making the bats at all. I will not be, i never have made bets ond politics, and i also wouldnt predict whats going to happen. A lot of people in washington canwa get away with being wrong all the time and then they suffer no consequences, theyre kind of shameless. I am filled with shame all the time. [laughing] i dont need any more reasons to feel shame. I dont know whats going to happen. I spent a bunch of time in iowa and its true, trump might not get thehe majority, a lot of people are tired of him, but also he might get enough and just run awayll with the whole thing. Image into trip to iowa. You also did a great piece on ron desantis as sort of previewing whats to come maybe next week in the debate, but sort of the awkward ron desantis. Give a little summary of the people that related to the awkwardness and whats that is all about. In the Washington Post and a publish a story the other day about a group of americans who can see themselves in ron desantis. They are awkward americans. They seeee themselves in his awkwardness on the true but they also hate what they see. [laughing] so they are awkward. People have been paying attention to that the Santos Campaign they will have seen lots of clips of him not knowing how to talk to children. Someone drinking and icann think that looks like a lot of sugar, and not really [laughing] not like what is your favorite flavor, you know, that can think so we said what your name . He said tim. Okay. The kinds ofyo things you dont, you want to be better at that if youre running for president. But i did find a lot of people who saw themselves, a woman told me she watcheshe these videos ad she cringes budgies cringing because she sees her self and she told me a story about picking up or get from camp the other day and forgetting her id and telling the counselor i can show you my scar from delivery if you want to see it. He was like no no, no. Just joking come just joking. I couldnt stop thinking about it. Seems to be an enduring quality. People saw themselves but they also found in like so unlikable. Relating to somebody and liking somebody is not always the same thing. Its not actually a huge advantage to awkward americans see themselves in him but it was a very funny story. Jonathan, you have covered the santos. What are your thoughts on how hes going to do this week . First of all i should say buy his book, its untested. Everything you fear is wrong with washington isit proven rig, the grifters, the hacks, its really a sorry spectacle but one that you cant stop reading. And it also happens to be true. Your Nations Capital. Yeah, obviously had a rough summer, negative about his organization. I think that probably matters less to voters on the ground in iowa and obviously the folks who kind of live and breathe politics that is not helpful the sense that the year before the president ial risk of the socalled invisible primary, the Media Coverage does matter and has this sort of title way to in the way that it sort of can lift and received, and sort of see that over the years in both parties are not busy he is been hurt by the coverage. But coverage can shift and oftentimes the coverage itra dos shift. Mistakes are significant. Hes go to show what sort of endeared him in the first place on the debate stage. In some ways its better for him that trump is not there because while you have the pressure is more intense because hes more honest, hes more the story, the opportunity i think is greater forr him to without trump becaue you dont have the distraction of trump being there. He has got at least a chance to emerge ine the coverage that night and the days after as the bigger storyline. The risk is its a bad storyline but at least he has a chance. If trump was there every story that night and the days after would be whatever the crazy said. Trump i think it does a lease offered to seize an opportunity. Let me bring you win. We are taught about trump not being at the debate. Of course biden is not going to be at the debate. You just recently wrote a piece for usa today about biden, hes going to be taking probably 99 of the incoming fire. What iso the Biden Campaign dog to try to counteract that earlier . First of all thanks again for having me here. Its great to be in mississippi with such unseasonably cold weather outside. [laughing] the great to be h in. The Biden Campaign has been operating very quietly to the frustration of some democrats. So far since he announced in april theres not been a big campaign rally. They havee been satisfied, and the republicans duking it out at each other while the Biden Campaign starts amassing a Large Campaign war chest. They have about 77 million on hand but theyre really going to use this debate as a first, pivot with a large tv ad blitz targeting the maga extreme republicans, thats how they will be framing it, continue the things of the white house over the last year and a half. So you also see the dispatch Jaime Harrison dnc chairman as well as cedric richmond, former congressman from louisiana nearby who is a white house advisor. He will be dispatched to milwaukee. They are going to use a lot of the themes that we see in fighting among republicans. They are going to start pouncing onon that. I still think were going to see a rather quiet biden operation until 2024. They just they just dont see the need right now to totally engaged while republicans are still unsettled. He doesnt seem to engagements even with the press. He doesnt get very many interviews, doesnt do very many news conferences. Very they protected by the s. Is it hard to cover a candidate and present like this purpose it can be. They can be a sore subject among us reporters. Trump in terms of accessibility was way more accessible. He always talked reporters as he is going out to marine one of the White House South Lawn and they are very guarded with President Biden but he went about a twoweek stretch recently where he didnt engage in any questions with the press. You can imagine why. It was when the hunter biden was resurfaced with the tapping of the appointment of a special counsel. But only in that his plea deal fell apart, that wasnt an issue that he wanted to talk about. Also they arere still tend to fe out i think how to touch the indictments of t trump, if he is the nominee. On the one hand, you can stay quiet about it kind of the stories, you know, tell themselves in terms of framing who trump is here if the president were to talk about it they are going, republicans would use those and say hey, this is them weaponizing the judiciary by the same time this is going be such a dominating, to what jonathan said, of the unknowns we have. We dont know what we were going to be getting with the entrance of what these court cases are going to be, jenna, the trial dates, what the sentencing could be. Thats going to be something the biden folks will have to figure out how to take on. Theres so much issues bidenr has not figured out how to deal with or that his staff doesnt want to come to terms with. One is investigation into hunter biden. The other is bidens age and how they will address that. And if we b are being totally honest, the third is his department of justice prosecuting the former president. They havent figured out how to address those issues because they are difficult issues to address and because biden is, how shall it put this, biden is a risky asset when it comes to public performance. We have life in our book its a delicate way putting it. Outline in ourpa book, cspan audience, david axelrod, the former obama adviser, said this. You have to imagine it in a great deadpan voice that i can fully do, he said the biden staff has performance anxiety. Biden performs and theys get anxious. Well, i mean, because every time biden goes out there, theyin dont know wht hes going to say necessarily. Hes had a fundraiser a couple of months agoe and he calls, he calls president xi a dictator and the next day theres a sort of speculation among a lot of allies around the world, whats biden up to . A new shift in american policy toward beijing . No, its joe biden being joe biden. Talking at a fundraiser and got to lose. Thats how it operates. But if you are bidens staff, thats a risky proposition when it comes to all three of those topics. I dont think they fully have come to terms with how to address that. You chronicle of 2020 raise of course it was during covid and so much of that campaign for him but he took place in the basement. Yeah. As , harris was, theyre both unsteady public performers especially speaking offthecuf offthecuff. For the duration of the general election 2020 they had a readymade reason to not do a press conference. Its a different story now but as the sitting president is remarkable how little he does in terms of sitdown interviews and folders press conferences. T still only one sitdown p interview with the printed publication, that was associated press. Hes not been one since then ane there has been occasional tv appearances. His most recent tv interview was with the Weather Channel of all outlets. Theyve been picking andck choosing and they dont think that, as jonathan alluded to, he can be a gaffe machine so they dont, they limited those opportunities. To write about the troubled first two years of the Biden Administration where so many people felt he sort ofak failedo make things normal again. You write about even a conversation you had with jen psaki the White House Press secretary about whether he would even run again. Yeah. The premise of this book basically is to look at the first two years in a post trump may be pretrump again washington, this interregnum. The was this talk in washington think youll back to normal. We hadad this for years when lie everyday with a look at twitter and like wonder if were going to go a nuclear war with north korea and finally thinks could be normal again. But having covered washington as long as i have, i can look around and say like this is not normal. Is like this is not, theres no way to go back to normal. I dont know if biden failed to try to make things go or not. I just think normal is not reality. I spend time trying to figure oute, what the new normal was, like how things worked. I found like kind of a city that was very broken, people were still trying to figure out like what strategies made sense. They were making big bets literally but also kind of figuratively on where things were. Trumps influence was just kind of everywhere. Its not the city that is trumps city, but it certainly reflects him still in a lot of ways. Jonathan you mention the biden bridge. There was discussion recently reported on in your column about conversations that are still happening about whether somebody in the party will step up and challenge them. Yeah. The great reveal about modern Politics Today is that about a senior officials in both parties are living a very different version of their lives in public versus private. Im not being salacious. What im saying is in public, democrats salute joe biden and say of course theyre supporting his reelection, hes on, president , hes done a great job, four more years. Public a lot of republican say oh, im going to let Voters Decide about our election and not going to lay in about former President Trump okay. Beside that limitation something. A lot of democrats are on pins and needles about thehe possibility of nominating biden again because of his age, a o cousin of his unpopularity, and there an easy about it. Those same democrats are equally uneasy about answering the next question thatp comes up if they sayhe in public that they dont want joe biden, which is said you want Vice President harris to be the nominee . So democrats dont want to do with a lot of those questions so instead they punt and say im for the incumbent. Next question. Its an easy way toqu escape the question. And for republicans, in private a lot of them desperately want to get somebody besides trump and that was even before the indictments because they dont want to risk losing the election and risk winning and having trump for four more years. Speaking of bets. So it is at this remarkable moment and, frankly, a very cynical moment i think in american politics which the Leadership Class in both parties says things strikingly different in private versus public. He yes politicians have alwaysn politicians but i do think that right now we are in a notably cynical moment. Yo you mention the jen psaki conversation in the white house and what you said to me at the time when she was a press secretary at thee time was she was talking about the dinner that she had with her brotherinlaw who had workedwo for obama and they were talking about biden and whether he would run to get the gsib but she didnt have any believe he wouldnt and didnt have any reason to believe that she asked it is a plan, dizzy but have a plan in the Democratic Party in case he doesnt run . Is there a secret meeting happening in a basement somewhere where democrats are making a plan . The brother and losse response was should we be having a meeting like that . Should that be happening here . Whichch is a great reveal abt american politics. Anytime you have questions usually some american politics is more like the and west wing. As to why that bridge never materialize with biden i do think inside he truly believes he is the only one who can beat President Trump a former President Trump. Thats a big thing he carries around. He also sees the unrest with the party, or the lack of a bench what if you want to call it, and i think he didnt envision himself years ago being president to potentially 86 years old. But thats thats refined sense of at. There is no shortage of issues that could comein up in the age come with age issues over the next 15 t months. You saw a trip on a diploma handout on their first couple monthsit ago. Its something they have to confront. He has been doing it lately with the joke sayi hey, ive been he 600 600 years, that kind of thing. Thats a sort of speeding literally calling outig the elephant in the room. Right, calling it out tos se if that works but it is a big question. As long as trump poses a threat to the democrats and distill the likely republican nominee, biden enjoys insulation around himself because theres almost a sort of this Cardinal Rule that thou shall not we can President Biden well trump is still the likely republican nominee. All these democratic governors and senators who are super ambitious who would love to be president , not to mention some names, they are not going to child biden as long as trump is in the wings because the backlash of your weakening our incumbent running against him helping trump. That has impact on their political line dunnellon. A congressman dean philip from minnesota who reported was taking some meetings in york and thinking about challenging biden itself but what usually try to do ispl he trying to play the re of jim mccarthy 1968 and sort of break the ice for me else can get in theen race and challenge biden. He is now gone on sunday shows the last couple of weeks and basically urged democrats to challenge biden. Responses is crickets. Nothingin. The gretchen whitmer, gavin newsom, hello governor, j. B. Pritzker, philtz murphy, all the senators, they dont want to imperil their future prospects by challenging biden now and inviting the kind of backlash that would come pick it want to keep their liability in the system. You mentioned Vice President harris and write a lot about her selection in the book behind the scenes. If he had more confidence in her as aof successor, would that it made him more apt to kind of exit stage left . Theresno no question that pt of the bidens self rationalization for running for president again and certain potential in his mid80s is that hey, who else is going to beat donald trump who else has experience that i do . Im obviously, he believes that, youre right. Part of the reason why he submits himself of that is because he didnt groom a formidable successor. There is profound doubt among democrats that she could step in and win a general election next year. That absolutely plays into it. A lot about come in the book you talk about her selection as really kind of being a shortterm pickpi for him, to hp them inth the short term to win that election but not as much thought given to a possible successor. In the spring, summer of 2020 Joe Biden Biden and his inner circle were not dwelling on, well, if we do pick senator, harris in the fall of 2023 and were think about running for reelection, im goingco to be turning 81, there could be doubts about my age and viability for five more years to maybe we should desha know, there think about who can we get on the ticket to be trump . That was the entire process was we got to be trump. For understandable reasons. This is covid. I get it but that was we report and the book were a lot of folks in california especially told that the in vp, biden look, dont pick Kamala Harris. There was pushed back so it so that biden told Eric Garcetti pistol ambassador to india and then the mayor of l. A. , he said why do theno folks in california not like Kamala Harris . Because l he was getting so much pushback but he knew. Let me ask you, because we talked about the first two years of the Biden Administration being tough, by all accounts recently, i mean hes engage in highlevel diplomacy, the economy seems to be Getting Better but his numbers are still under s water. Think people just still baked in to the perception of him and how speedy legislative, the first two years of the Biden Administration you could put it on par with Lyndon Johnsons Great Society inat terms of majr government programs. Fulfills kind of a progressive agenda. Most recently with Inflation Reduction Act which is, which has the historical climate investments, and yeah, you say you mention some of the economic improvements. Weve seen that in terms of a robust jobs market right now, unemployment iss at the lowest n 50 years. But the president isnt getting any credit for economic turnaround and thats a major frustration right now for the administration. They have totally tied themselves to that, the future of this economy, with the bidenomics messaging, right, theyve adopted and really put a lot of his hopes on this idea but reinvigorating domestic manufacturing to match a green economy. A lot of those things really, they are big endeavors right now which are not going to see the creation for fruition for anotherow tenure so almost as a match with the people are feeling now. The president the other day at a fundraiser like any kind of went off script, he said and really i wish i hadnt been called the Inflation Reduction Act because thats not what it really is. In fact, hes right. You look at polling, hes not getting credit for Washington Post article the other people the things heng can acclimate. They cant name is legislative accomplishments. So much of that is because people are kind of hard nephews but also itst hard to get outa policy agenda through this modern media landscape we have right now. Ben you talk about in your book sort of this class of folks a came in with biden that at the big hopes and dreams. Re yeah. I feel like one of the reasons why his numbers are hard to move is because he got half the country is going to feel one way no matter what. And then the Democratic Party py itself is like kind of always battling with itself. It was very easy for people on the left in washington in the way, there wouldnt have wanted trump around. They did one of arrest but in a way it was easy because they could just be we are people against this guy. We could raise a ton of money, you can haveil your coalition be built as being in opposition. But once they came to power it was difficult because now you have to do things and people have different fishing trapping should go. A lot of people in the book really thought about this. I report on a scene like to the congressman almost come to blows on the house floor because have different opinions about how things shouldof go on some of bidens legislation. So now youre having peopl in the country not liking biden from the left or even from the centerleft. Its going to be hard to get your numbers to go up when half the country hate you no matter what and the other half is trying to get what the best way to move forward is. It really is like a dramatic scene. The book is mostly people experiencing lots of drama, like in their lives, in the work, and some of that drama comes from politics. It comes a time to getet things done. Some of it is exacerbated by that. Its relationships with friends and coworkers and people losing jobs and having projects that they built and then having l crashed on at the end. Sometimesrd thats the hardest when you actually have the power because you actually have a lot more pressure to get things done. Theres still such a wrong trackngng feeling among americaf the future of the country. A lot of thats come out of this pandemic, this real contentious area politically. Its hard for people to respond to these questions and say the economy is really good right now. And there are some signs that the widest has to be worried about with all of a sudden gas prices, its no longer declined. They are back on the rise. Everything wouldnt talk about here, this must mean biden must be in real trouble, right, for november 2024. Look at the Midterm Election just a year ago and everyone was expecting democrats to be in big trouble because of the historic inflation. Well, the democrats successfully made that about something more. They made it about trumpism. Theyey made it about abortion ad so theres going to be days that are still outut there for 24 th, that biden can overcome although Approval Rating. I dont know if his Approval Rating is ever going to improve dramatically. People are pretty, its over, like he was never the top choice and even democrats. He became the logical choice in 2016 because they thought he would have the best chance to beat trump. I mean i dont think youll ever see a, 50 biden appropriate. No, i mean, he is president , not trump iss what he is. Thats difficult at some level for any politician but especially for joe biden who was elected to the u. S. Senate 29 years old 29 years old in 1972. He served with senator tennis who a lot of folks in his room no. He served withll senator eastla. He really goes back to biden senator was born in 19 19 sinisterly goes back. He ran twice before and he finally won. He gets air force one, he gets camp david. Yesterday he standing there with the leaders of japan and south korea, historic, historic rivals and hes ringin them together to confront china in the pacific. Pacific. That is no small thing, having those two countries tend together like that innd friendsp at camp david. I think biden has a chip on his shoulder in part because he doesnt get credit for those kinds of steps because he only story in American Life and so was the only story in Global Politics is one thing, trump. Its his fate to be president , not trump. He still gets to be president and he still i think your point is probably still the front runner next year in facing donald trump. Make no mistake, that is the only question. In europe this summer, talking to folks in european capitals, theres only one question they have for you and that is, is trump coming back . And so that plays to bidens benefit because he is the alternative. Yet when we think about republicans and this piece that you wrote about mainly about Mitch Mcconnell but touched on the divisions within the Republican Party, into what the Foreign Policy looks like in that direction. Talk about the party and where it goes with trump back in the office and what that means for the other wing of the party. I dont think we fully appreciate the divide in the Republican Party between the pretrump and the post trump party that you just mentioned. I wrote a long piece about Mitch Mcconnell who is really the last leader still in office of the pretrump party. He sort of the bulwark of the pretrump party, especially when it comes to national security. He is a reaganite. He believes in projecting American Force abroad. I did a long piece about his effort to keep the part of that reaganite course especially comes to defending ukraine, and increasingly lonely campaign because the senate obvious it is a different animal. Theres still a lot of folks there who are pretrump, pretrump creatures. But the house is really where the party is going. Increasingly reflects the sort of trumpist party, and its going to be tough to get more money out of the house for ukraine. Thats a standin for a larger story, which is how trump has transformed this party it if you take step back and think about it, thewi difference between the two wings is profound and its pretty clear who obvious has the upper hand. As a go into 2024, but boy, it leaves so many people politically homeless in this country who are traditional kind of pretrump republicans. They are not democrats that they are not comfortable with the kind of crude demagoguery, isolationist Foreign Policy. A kind of nationalism on trade and domestic policy. I just dont know where that leaves a lot of people in the party. And if you stepnd back and think about it that are republicans in this country whove who e parties the need for apa long te you are about to go adapted with having voted for their parties nominee for president. Think about that for a minute. People next t the trumpism nominate will have gonert a dece without voting for their own partie nominee because you just cant accept trumpism but thats what the party is increasingly becoming. Even if you take trump out of it we will see on the debate stage wednesday that the top two trump alternatives right now ron desantis and theie Vivek Ramaswamy will have view of ukraine that is up my closer to donald trump. We will take questions in a few minutes so if you do have a question you can start to line up behind the mic in the middle of the room. Let me ask ben. Ten scott featured also in your book as you a lot about his chief of staff to talk to them. What are your impressions of him . He sort of the opposite of trump, sunnyside up in many ways, right . Kind of the polite candidate. Hes trying to say that he is like a the alternative to this Trumpist Movement that you see in politics. And the wayth he sticking with. He uses the word hope a lot and uses the word optimism a lot and he is friendly and charming and people like him or can i have everybody liked it. Not everybody said theyre going to vote for them. A lot of people said i wish we lived in a time when you could have a nice guy like him, but we need is a smash mouth fighter who is going to take on our enemies inside the country and out. The other thing thats happening i noticed when spending time with ten scottk last week is en though hes using the word hope and optimism as smiling and being friendly, hes also sing a lot of the same things that year. He starts every speech with we have to close the southern border. We have to lock up violent criminals. So even the hopeful optimistic guy does that kind of a dark view of the country right now. And so parted me its like hes that doing as well as trump obviously, and you sort of trying to straddle the line. It really is a hard time to be somebody who is not donald trump in Republican Party. Jelly, do you think he has a lane in this race . Its going to be hard to find that line. I think anything that emerges is going to havee to come from a statebystate begin with i will come somebody who can, maybe it could be tim scott. I think thats what mike pences going to be speaking it later, hisa evangelical connections cn emerge and as a victory there. Otherwise if trump wins that state, the calendar for the primary process nationalizes so quickly and then trump issues going to roll away with this thing. Of course desantis was supposed to be the main opponent here of trump but he had his own problems. I see the republican donors are still talk about Glenn Youngkin may be getting b in the race or maybe even brian kemp other of georgia, but the fact that it is republican donors talk about that kind of, they are missing the point of how come thats not how thats the two parties right there. Its going toea be really hard t i do think if there is a path for another republican to beat trump people have to be hey, this person finished second orwa so in iowa, then wins New Hampshire and will have to just be, you know, really at the granular level. You are noto going to see i dont think trump lose this commanding primary lead anytime soon. Glenn youngkin, popular governor of virginia. People still keep talking about him as potential beginning. Hes obviously hes obviously had the virginia legislative elections coming up this november so you cant really do anything until then. Is it too late . Et can you did in . The donor class is keeping hope alive. Political slogan. Maybe just maybe our hero will ride in on a horse and save the day come exactly. Save us from the grips of the trumpism. One smile and adventure Capital Investment at a time period its unlikely. I wouldnt say its impossible. I would never Say Something is totally impossible. You make an important point, if he gets in midnovember the art couple of deadlines that already passed by the point to be on the ballots in some of these primary states. Such is the calendar makes it pretty darn tough. I think well turn to some questions. With some appear if you want to introduce yourself and ask your questions for sure. My name is tom cassidy. I am from arlington, virginia. I feel like im in washington we can review. Thank you, jonathan spitted i better moderator than jeff goldberg. But ben my question is do you a maybe you could provide some context for it. But i need the odds. What are the odds of the speaker surviving a motion to vacate . The odds . Back to gambling. Again, would want to put my own money on it. Jonathan probably has a better chance of any this question than i do, but in my mind hes shown himself able to survive a lot right now. I feel like people keep assuming that the speaker of the house is going to lose his job because it is a precarious job. He has lots of people who desperately want him gone, or to at least have him under their thumb. But i dont know if theres another alternative and i just feel like if he survived this long, the odds are probably pretty good that he survives it. But i wouldnt put any of my own money or any of the college fund money i have for my children on that survival. He also talked about in your book and through the lens of frank lutz in your book who of course republican pollster, long time, goes back decades. Yeah. With thent speaker, right . So frank luntz is sort oft best friends with Speaker Mccarthy but also told me that he hated donald trump so much that donald trump nearly killed him. He had a stroke that he said was a result of his hatred for donald trump can stress levels what through the roof. I tried to spend time with frank to understand how you can both be best friends with Kevin Mccarthy when donald trump also referred to as my kevin . Like, how can he be my kevin and franks kevin . That seems like impossible but it isto sort of the story of washington which is that people spitted at how did he justify . He justified it by Kevin Mccarthy point of the best people ive ever met, and i think hes doing the best he can basically. But really what it is is he wants to become that you want to become a creature washington its hard to break that. I spent time at his houses which are enormous and decorated with just political ephemera from over the years, and he is just, his dna is part of washington. So while trump almost killed him, washington also sort of keep him alive. He told that Kevin Mccarthy, who stayed with him a while, a little bit of a scandal and his condo, he knocked out four penthouse condos to make one john conger and he told me that Kevin Mccarthy sometimes will inject him with his medicine because hes too afraid of needles. So washington almostng killed in an washington is keeping alive. Well, Kevin Mccarthy also featured prominently in here also Kevin Mccarthy his voice is featured prominently in audiotape you all may remember from last year. Which tells you everything about Kevin Mccarthy. Kevin mccarthy survived because Kevin Mccarthy does what he has to do to survive. Isis in football, i bend but dont break defense and bouygues event a lot. I Kevin Mccarthy in the days before trumps impeachment was talking about going to trump and urging him to resign to avoid impeachment. This is in aftermath of january 6. How do i know that . I had the audiotape of Kevin Mccarthy telling his fellow lawmakers in a private cover sculptures that and its in the book. Mccarthy did know when you did that publicly said that. Mccarthy denied saying it would play the audiotape and hobbies and that was fat. Kevin mccarthy survives in part because he will do whatever it takes to placate the sort of far right faction of the party, andd also he survived because te obvious alternative willing to step up and take the speakership in a because they see what he has too go through and say i do want to do that either. I think that keeps him going. Tobe go back to ukraine issue. This is going to be a real test of Kevin Mccarthy is speakership. Can he get a ukraine package through the house this year . Yes, they will garlanded with all of the kinds of goodies but that would be a real test and if he does come to zettabyte a challenge to speakership . My name is annette pfister i live in the greater jackson. My question is for jonathan. I wondered to what extent do you think that trumpli is a lightnig rod for the anxiety that we as a culture feel with everything speeding up, the internet, all of that . It is basically less about the man and more about the changing that is happening faster and faster, and that is very alienating and disorienting for many people. Ive always thought trump as moren a symptom than a cause, d that trump is, yeah, i mean, countries often times turn to demagogic politicians for answers,s, not because they are persuaded by the wisdom of the demagogue but because something theyre saying resonates had a more profound level. We had a hard time grappling with that in this country because it wasnt supposed to happen here, right . Are riot in s the seat of the government with like cops assaulted because the elected leader will not leave office after close election . Oh, yeah, that happens all the time in, filled in the blank country. We still toha this day have a hd time grappling with what happened, and what is happening in this country because its not supposed to happen here. Of a has been something failure of imagination about trumpism. I think the root of it does owe to the fact that there is obviously a profound polarization now that is happening at the same time of obviously demographic changes in the country, and because of that that is an audience for what he is offering. I would also say theres also an immense backlash to whatt hes offering with a lot of the country doesnt what it and we shouldnt should consider everything hes got some Massive Movement behind him. The fact is hes a minority leader. Hes not one majority of the country. He narrowly won in 2016, and Electoral College victory in part because a rant against a very weak upon the rent a bad campaign, all right . Ever since that electing democrats have feasted on donald trump. They have been the victors of the trump phenomenon for the most part. You can go back to 2017 to the president. S i can in chapter verse election. Hes been the gift that keeps on giving for democrats which for republicans home edition will not say about but theyre desperate for him to leave the state because he hes what ks democrats alive and hes the best tool for turnout, for fundraising, for organization, for everything. So its a fascinating moment in which yes, hes got a real support system behind him by this a minority of the country and the majority of the country detested and democrats benefit from that. Rosenblattis jim from the Mississippi College school of law here in jackson. In recent years weve seen the impact of judicial nominations. Do you think the question of judicial nominations going to be a spoken or an unspoken issue in the coming National Campaign . Who wants to take that . I dont think its going to be a major issue but the Biden Administration has gotten through a historic number of judicial nominees. I know that something that they like to tout. Im not sure, and maybe you guys want to wait in, whether or not thats going to be at the center of the election. I think if donald trump is the nominee again its going to come up a lot among republicans because a lot of people in the Republican Party has said time and again, i dont love the guy, i dont love his attitude, i dont even necessarily believe all the things he believes, but man, has he been good at getting permanent change in the country, like judges. Its like having, speed certainly on the Supreme Court front. I think that will be a major focus of democrats. Donald trump, the three Supreme Court justices he got to the court, that led directly to overturning of roe v. Wade. I think there was a quote trump made evident at a dont want to misquote it but he essentially was touting that legacy. Thats fine for the Biden Campaign if he wants to do that. Thats going to be in commercials, you bet, next year. So that is going to be a major focus of this guy and a very important decision the president makes in his Lifetime Appointments of Supreme Court justice. Theyre going to remind voters of that because it resonates so well amongst suburban swing districts that are going to really decide this election in six states. So that will be a major focus i would expect. The court was always an issue that republicans could use their benefit. One of the biggest see changes since dadaab decision that is flipped and is now much more of an asset for democrats. Because you overturn legal abortion in this country, a sort of fiftyyear precedent that a lot of voters who dont follow politicsof are closely was a profoundly importantnt issue. There was a large factor in the midterms and think its going to be a significant factor at that is a issue of white democrats almost held onto the house last year. Its why they werent able to hod onto the senate. That is still alive and we saw that in ohio two weeks ago with the vote that they had. We saw a little reminder although bit more to kansas. Kansas were talking about. That is one of the real issues that gives democrats a lot of confidence makes you because this is real o out there. On the republican side, too, ive been on the trail recently and have a lot of people say on the stump if its not republicans its going to be democrats and then youll see six new judges added. Lots of fear mongering about the court. Heres think of is not going to be as theyre going to do things that youre never going to believe to the Supreme Court, you know, judges. It does come up. Not necessarily like a top issue but its going to be something talked about a lot. Next question. My name is courtney. I am from the madison area. Im a new graduate from ole mish you all. Yall mention that age was a big issue with bidens campaign and i wass wondering if yall saw y argosy any age limits regarding the presidency come into play or if you think thats the nonissue at all, or even in congress, to. Age limits . I suppose youd have to change the constitution for that specific, right . We saw nikki haley of course wanted to have a competency test and that was a way for her to try to get some media play come out of the election. I dont see we would put restrictions above the age, you know, abbottabadpr age of when u can start running for president. I cant see that gaining traction, but i dont see it either. Also its hard to imagine there being changes onag age limits wn like half of the people in charge of washington are right. It is very a very old p. I mean its like eighty ceiling over everyday. The leadership i dont see it happening because a lot of people be kicking themselves out of a job. Self interest. Exactly, exactly. I am john harris from jackson. My question is what is the jockeying look like for the post Mitch Mcconnell gop leadership in the senate . Good question. The three most obvious candidates are the three johns as are called, john thune from south dakota, John Barrasso from wyoming, and john cornyn from texas. I wish senator wicker was here so we could put them on the spot and ask him about his preference when that day comes. Those are kind of the three obvious, hes got relationships with the more recent lawmakers. There are more current so could give them a slight leg up. Brasso has tried to run as most conservative alternative. But i t wonder if the thought to be someone else who gets in the race. Im really curious about a potential dark horse who would jump in. Those are kind of the three most obvious candidates right now. The number one way to not get the jobe is like talk about it too much. The three johns probably unlikely to talk about it too much. You wouldnt know who the dark horse is essential because the secondhe figure reported they ae just no longer in contention. Some of the characters in your book are probably working behind s the scenes, like these things are even though theyre not talked to publicly theres all sorts of speed is theres always groundwork have, always people think their positive that their guys going to be the guy. Mcconnell would probably have a big say in it i would think. Exactly. Ben, let me close, if any more questions, i think we just a few more minutes, i wanted to ask you funderburk perspective becauseu you have what i think s just the fascinating characters in the book, which is baking to be a movie. I know right now with the right effect is probably not getting traction but i hope once thats finished it will be a movie. How did you go about finding some of these folks . What foodsds did you have to lok under and how did you get kind of information to follow them around . It was one of the hardest parts of making this book happen. Honestly i cast a very wide net and i spent a lot of time with a lot of people including a lot of people who didntin end up being in the book. To bein in the book you need toe like both interesting, faceting, funny, weird, like a character. You actually want to follow like they are in a novel but also the part of a big important story. So i spent a lot of time with people who were fascinating and amazing characters but didnt end up havingg a dramatic arc pics i spent all this reporting time about all this up and then had come outso of the book. Whatt happened is a lot of the people i ended up spending time with had big things happen to them, often bad things happen to them, and they regretted spending time with me by the end. But in the beginning a lot of them wanted toau spend time with me because they thought im on the rise, im having this great moment. I want someone to document can be in a book in washington i am a player. So they knew you were im an avid back room, im playing poker with these guys, going to parties with them. M. By the end theyre basically like why . Why did i great to this . A lot of them try to get out of the book by the end in various creative ways. Theres a lot of reasons in washington spend time with a journalist. One is because they see no downside, even if they come across poorly in this book. Maybe theyre famous enough to get a tv gig. It happened in a different book, this town which is a book that helped inspire this book. Also there people dont feel taken seriously. They feel like like a big d often than not as big ideas as a thinker but they think nobody takes them seriously. I do take the going seriously in the book. Give them time to give people like to talk until all of a sudden they really dont. Its a terrific book and i just wondered by everybody that ben and jonathan are going to be signing copies of the book at 1215 timex we hope youll come out and join them for that, and appreciate everyone being here. How about an applause for our moderator is wasnt she great . [applause] if you are enjoying booktv then sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen to see the schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions, festivals and more. Booktv every sunday on cspan2 or anytime online at booktv. Org, television for serious readers. Cspans studentcam documenting competition is back celebrating 20 years with this years theme looking forward lock considering the past. We are asking middle and High School Students to create a five to six minute video addressing one of these questions. In the next 20 years what is the most important change you would like to see in america . Or, over the past 20 years what has been the most important change in america . 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