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More including cox. It is extremely rare. But friends dont have to be. When you are connected you are not alone. Cox monk these Television Companies support cspan2 as a public service. It is a wonderful to be here today with lauren a new author of a recently released r book called the fix the untold story of americas first women astronauts. To lauren, welcome itsou great to talk too you. Think its great to talk to you too i love our roles are reversed the time normally im the one interviewing you. That is right. I have been interviewed by you many times it will feel like im sure a wonderful conversation but you t are more comfortable asking the questions and i am probably more comfortable manswering them. I am really interested in this discussion. Because i have been involved in that but as have you for a long time. I knew many of these original six women all but judy. Id just say right off i have an advance copy of the book i really enjoyed reang this book. I have known some of the history. But the way it has been t presented people will find it fascinating and im interested getting some of the back story and the highlights teased out in thisnv conversation. I will start right off by just asking you. I get asked this a lot about a book i came out with last year. What motivated you to write this book . The timing, what is its that you felt the message was right to know get out about these women today . My kind of go to answer is obviously ive been reporting on space for nearly a decade now. The space reporting field is a mail dominated industry. As i have continued in this procession ive met a lot of great women journalists they are thereabsently fantastic prettify myself really drawn to them we create a cohort within this. That has been a really special to me. Also it dictates what stories i am drawn to and space. Also the space industry is quite maledominated. Its been very important to me too try to send our womens voices in the space field is much as i can. That helpmate look back on i think about women in this industry i was drawn to the women who came first. Over the first female in the field and who are the first women on the space industry. That ultimately led me too this group of sixme women. I think i was like most people in the public the First American woman i did not have a sense of who the other five women were. When i learned more about them how easily it could have gone to state judy or ana fisher, or any of the other six women i was 5000 by the story a lot of what is cap popping into my head with it had been for someone else . What if it hadnt been sally that would change in history books. Rn it was a way for me too learn more about them as it was until their storage everyone else. At its fastening part of the book that i do that i want to dig into because the selection to be first is something that have not been talked about before trade some of the sources. Have done astronauts selection george abby as you described him while in the book i have known him well over the years it has been shrouded in mystery. Even every one of the six and how they are selected you go into. Want to be able to let you tell some of those stories. For me its also interesting because right now nasa has announced i woman is going to be among the next crew that will be two people to go to the moon and walk on the moon and lots of people speculating about that selection but i really think some of what you uncovered here can help reveal that. We might to dig into that if we have time. Please Selection Process is most passing for me i belted up in my headad as being this one way and revealing it was a whole different scenario. Lets talk about it. The group of women as we get into each of them the very last to fly as you point out ended up being the astronaut who stayed the longest at the agency who flew by far the most flights doubling all the others combined. It is a situation of tortoise slow and steady wins the race. Her first flight was after sallys second flight. I got to get to know them. Shannon was never one of those people she was a mother when she was selected and had a lot of other things going on. Did not really play in the game of i want to be first. She had an amazing career starting with i would love to hear what can you tell us about shannon that you uncovered will be a teaser for people to read the book . Really nailed that some of things you just said about her. Shannon among the six of them probably yea end of the most to be an astronaut. One of things i loved it wordine wording about the first mercury seven astronauts appeared on a magazine cover back in the 60s she immediately it clicked for her she saw all white men on the cover and thought oh, i am completelyin excluded from this cohort even though it something she desperately wanted to do. She even mailed in a letter to the editor to ask if they are going to let women into spacet someday. She got a response from what she remembers maybe someday. Ultimately turned out she was one of the six. Ill share this burning passion they all wanted to fly as soon as possible in any event astronaut is to go to space. Having to wait is an agonizing process. It was not important to her to be a big name in the history bookse it was really that she gt to go. Everyone who talked about shannon described her the same way she was very cool calm and collected she knew exactly what shect was doing that was reflecd in her work. She was also a woman of great integrity. The story in the book she was invited on this trip to saudi arabia there are some restrictions for her to go by herself because she was a woman she took a stand there is a moment said she couldnt doubt if she went as an honorary man she is at absolutely not on me t going to do that. Thats very indicative of shannon scruples protects truly i had never heard that story. I think it really showed she was also perhaps the greatest feminist in her own way. She was not going to go on that trip it i too was invited to saudi a arabias deputy administrator of nasa and did not go because even by then it was not something i felt we should be supporting. But she really stuck to that. I love that you reveal that story. Next in the line was doctor another fascinating person who i believe you interviewed personally for this. Married to another astronaut. Ultimately flew on three flights. The only one like her personality is very different thanan shannons but how driven could you be you outline their schedule. I really feel that she as a doctor i dont hike. That is one thing that really struck me about all is how extremely busy they were how much they juggled it was not others were doing a postop work or research at the samee time. I can barely keep my wits about meet with the one job i have i cannot imagine juggling such heady jogs all the time they managed with grace and nothing about ray she was the first to give birth to the socalled eight child born of two astronauts. She really had her hands full with a newborn, her doctor work her medical work in the first spaceflight. That really inspired me about her. Her fight is extreme, interesting. What i love diving into these stories is learning about the shuttle flights they flew on. I feel that we know about the shuttle flights but we dont dive into what exactly they did when they were up there and bust that momentum overso time. It was great to go in and learn more about the satellites they were deploying the payloads we had they had on board its very interesting if it did not go according to plan they had to improvise this makeshift mission while theyre in space they did it with incredible ease it was a lot ofso fun for them. That was a particularly fun fight to write about. I do remember that because the sitcom did not work after we deployed it. And i dont too much because you describe it well. While she is creating having to stitch together literally a tool to use and a realtime someone called heris a good seamstress sally ride made the correction im a surgeon and i love that interplay brickwork thats a great example of the women looking out for each other. When they were needed in a pence they have each others backs which i really like. Really interesting. You dont sugarcoat it and said theyre all best friends. In the moment of the story there was not backstabbing in the sense other than a competition im sure. Your point i want to pull on a bit about how much they did. Do you get a sense thats the same for the men, the mail astronauts . I really didnt know how much else these women were doing. It does seem above and beyond but we do see. You mean the camaraderie . No you werent noting how busy they were doing so many things and a research and so forth. I dont know if its a sign of the times today i think the Astronaut Corps is a bit smaller. Most of them have phds before they come. Theyre not doing the multitasking that i think these women did. Some of them did their other doctors and other researchers that continued their research which to me blows my mind. The training alone was already so intense. They had to stay current the t38 jets 1 had to get 15 hours of flight time each month which doesnt sound like a lot learning the ins and outs of the spatial everett component was something they had to do their taking science classes. Then it either jobs or technical assignments on top of that. Working with pressure suits theres quite a lot to do within training alone. The idea that they have time for anything else was really mind blowing. Next was ana fisher is the first mother in space kristin is a space reporters interesting as we get into the selection the first. She had a chance to potentially be the first was a favorite of some she knew that would take her out of circulation for a bit. What else can you tell us about ana . I love that about her sitng going to space transfer is going to do she knew and she got assigned she gotten pregnant i was not surprised every single one of these women going to be some friction theyic made is not as far along as enlightened edit needs to be your act out by it before she flew people were not very happy about it. There are a lot of questions about how could she leave her child behind which is agreed just to think about when she is on a crew with other men who also had children and none of them were asked how they felt about leaving their children behind. She was in space a reporter asked how being an astronaut fit in with her duties as a mother she had to be as graceful as possible they all had to be as graceful as possible when theyre asked questions like that and she handled iti really well but one thing i thought about ana that was really interesting and she never really tookal a formal paternity leave. She was assigned to her flight right before she gave birth she was back in the office the next day with her little pillow seat she really wanted to show how determined and dedicated she was to her flights. Im sure people will have different opinions about whether not that was something she should have done or needed to do. That was it infrastructure issue that she still had to go into the office but ultimately that was her choice she really wanted to prove she was just as dedicated to her job as she was to being a mom. You could see nasa getting some criticism today. But for them i was thinking as i was reading your overview is good for nasa they assigned her as she was coming out of having a baby. That is not how we would look at it today. And ana did not interview she had a contractual obligation its she writing books . The women are very popular in terms of their stories. There are other stories theyve been under contract for. Ana was really great i attended lots of q and as that she had done. I even went to one of her astronaut opinions at Kennedy Space center. And also are things about these women they have been telling the stories for years and years. They have been very open with what it was like for them their feelings and their experiences. It made writing this book quite easy and quite fun because they are such a rich history to die from already. Hasnt been this k written previously because they are pretty open. Our next character is kathy sullivan, the third female american astronaut to go to space. Shes written several books and i know had also a contractual reason to not be interviewed personally. But shes talked about she i probably know her her best of of sex. I think a lot of us do because shes had a long, illustrious career in not only nasa management, but Noah Management as an oceanographer, a geographer and she just really as a geologist also has focused on a lot more broad than just space travel, going to the trenches of the ocean and so forth. Right, Hubble Space Telescope to two missions play by play two missions play large in her astronaut career. But interestingly there is less wrinl about her personal life. And this ill be interested in your kathy story to share with us that you uncovered but recognizing that couldnt have been easy. Yeah. I think that might be by design. I think thats also what i learned from writing this book women are eager to talk about their personal lives anna fisher her husband bill fisher also in the Astronaut Corps. Very big of her story and overall career at nasa. So you know, for some its, you know, theyre an open book for others not so much and now is the same with sally too i think television an only after that she passed unfortunately that we learned what wert did about her personal life. So i think it is just, you know, it goe to show that among women were not all of the same were all very different and we like share certain things and not share others but with kathy. You know, kathys story was really fantastic because it really got to dive into the world of space walks and, you know, all of the contention surrounding the First American woman to do a space walk and you is she going to have a different time. Theres a story in there about whether she needed to spend more time doing a prebreathe which is taking time to reach the right pressure before hand. And there was concern, you know, that because sheno was a woman, you know, she would have a different time, and she had to fight back against that before she performed her space walk and so you know, that one was really fun and also you know when she flew she flew with sally so hers was the first flight request two women onboard, and i thought that was really interesting because you know she made a comment about how when i think this was in one of her oral histories you know when they were selecting first woman heaven forbid two of us to go for the first time it had to be just one but hers was ultimately where first women flew which i thought was neat. That was prebreathe story of everyone is going to have to read the book to get that one because thats thats a really good one, and i had not heard it. And i think kathy is pretty open about her some of the early shenanigans antics of men when they flew the famous how many tampons do you pack stories a very big figure in that. But she really i found later as the manager also she had all of that down and she knew what she wasas dealing with whih was really helpful for her career. Ii think interestingly shes alo been opener that she wasnt even athe sallys first flight she ws most open to say you know, it was a little hard not to be selected as first. That to me is something i can relate to. Obviously, i think at the time they probably all wanted out on a very strong front and, you know, say oh it doesnt bother me to be the first or, you know, i just want to just want to fly. But i feel like you know if i were one of the first six i think there would probably be a small desire maybe not a small one to be the one in the history books. You know, and so for her to be open about that, and that it actually did bother her i think that is something we can all relate toal and im really that she did, you know, make that known to people that, you know, you know it did hurt not to be selected as the first. I agree. I agree. Bud aldrin has done same as number two on the moon. Well the second woman selected for a nasa space Station Mission with judy and her tough story since we know she lost her life in second flight and challenger accident. Very vivacious person we all can remember her floating in space with her beautiful hair taking up half of the shuttle capsule it seemed. Lots of fun stories. Whats your favorite judy . I think learning about judy was probably my favorite part of the book because it really did feel that like detective work. You know, having to piece together peoples memories of hers of her from, you know, the people that worked with her. What they remember of her and everyone has a very vivid memory of judy and that was very much, you know, she she could take a lot of crap. But she would give it right back. [laughter] and i really love that description of her because everybody kind of said it about her and i really leak that she was,al obviously, very strong. Very bold personality, and she was very committed to being taken seriously. You know she was fiercely protect iive of her private life also she did not want to make any kind of show about her gender she also made history as first Jewish American to fly into space, and she also didnt want, you know, she didnt like labels. She just wanted to be an astronaut you know and that was she didnt want to emphasize other aspects of that. Not that she wasnt proud but she wanted to be known for her job and her job alone. And i thought that was really inspiring. Her flight is also fantastic. You know, they have the first paddleboard for me Current Space reporter it was interesting to hearr all of the fuss around pd bort to fail to ignite while on launch patted so those for me are common and back then that was a very scary time for the Shuttle Program because they never had a patbort because that was a vivid memory one of the flashbulb moments for people because those onboard during abort really remember it and they remember every second as it ticked by so that was really, really neat to get to write almost as if i was there. And then when she did go into face you mentioned her hair you know theres really great moments that really showed how cog any distant women werehat they were under this intense media scrutiny when they flew. You know judy had a distinct with her hair i wont go into full detail. But you know, she had to wear to secrecy about it because you know she knew that if it got out that would be the entire focus of her flight. Because she was just a second American Woman to fly and i think thats just a good reminder that you know, when you do fly, as a first and underrepresented group, you know youre, theres much morech eyes on you than you could ever possibly line youre representing larger cohort of people. Yeah. I think you pulled that out really well in the book. All six took that on. In their own way, and that was probably apr thing that bonded them they knew. They knew. They each had to be excellent and by all indications they were all excellent. Yeah. Just truly Remarkable Missions as you go into them and their success, their role in them all just it justt made me smile to turn every page. To go into now sally, the first persone selected, im interestd in both your take aways first before asre you say we, you endd up being able to talk to her partner of 27 years. As well as her husband steve holly and, but before we knew of her personal life, her selection to me the story of george feeling, i think, for a lot of the really substantive ways she was great at using to manipulating arm that would play on in addition but really when he went up and pushed her as being the first to so he had two others in mind im presuming thats judy and anna. Tell us aboutdy that. Yeah so chris since then chris hasnt mentioned sally was not his first choice and thats i think that is really what struck me about learning about this whole Selection Process. Was how it really came down to one guys opinion. [laughter] i mean he, obviously, had some help you know i talked about how he consulted with bob crippen who was the commander of that flight. But it really george abby was the guy that you got you to go into space. And he had this about him but also there was mystery. You know because he never told you where you stood that was the criticism i heard that he was a very opaque person. [laughter] seem like every time a woman was on you thought they were going to beer asked they werent sure if the call was to tell him they were out. [laughter] right. Ig yeah or if they were in trouble or something. You know, no one quite knew what call from george abby meant until you actually heard the word you know we would like assign you to, you know, so and so flight. But yeah. No, george, you know, when i spoke to george he really didnt he thought it was interesting thatle people thought it was ths big mystery because for him it was there really wasnt any kind of special sauce to it. He really tried to match people with the best qualifications to the requirements of the flight. And so for stf seven what sally flew on was involved with the robot eggem arm and at the time she was really considered, you know, the best at the at the robotic arm, you know, manipulating if. So thatha was the outward reason why she was selected and there were other things too that did go into consideration at least from what bob told me. You know, they thought she would be able to handle it. Youd know, better than maybe se of the others just they didnt think that being a first with something would go to their head and that might have to do with the fact that she was a big conpartmentallizer and also a bit of an introvert so might have h played into her favor and not r while they say that it was her work y was the robotic arm there were other things that play as well. They also referenced her, her passed as a tennis player and how she was a toibl keep her cool on the tennis court so i think some of those things played into it as well but like i said was really surprised by it because in my and most peoples heads they have build up astronaut selection i thought maybe there was some special algorithm you put all of the inputs into a computer and it pops out you know the perfect person for the job. And really you know, its it can be just a subjective as any other Selection Process out there. Yeah. Indeed. I think that comes out well and i think that the phrase you said she would not, they felt seek the spotlight or fame. And to me thats thats really a fascinating thing when you look at other selections nasa made for astronaut first. And certainly with neil armstrong, also an introvert, i would guess that played and so maybe as we look to first people back on the moon here. We ought to be thinking of that. As i mention at the time of her death in 2012 well first we shouldwe say sally flew twice. Nasa Shuttle Mission scheduled third before challenger and after the challenger accident stayed to be involved only astronaut assigned to be involved in the challenger accident investigation she played a pivotal role that you outline well and went on to author a report known as the rad report but lay out a lot of what we end up doing to this day fast forward she continued to play this role as i worked with her later. I was going to say also she became known for, you know, helping out with the shuttle investigations and i know she also worked on a report after the columbia disaster that you worked on with her as well right yes, indeed we were thrilled joy of my life to work, work sally over the years, and the most recent was on the future of human space flight. But really put us on the course were on. Uri have said commercial crew meprogram that you cover and tht ive been involved in has really we wouldnt have it i feel without doctor sally ride. She is someone who i saw her come to the opinion during what is knownat as the augustine commitment about the task force in 2009 and she ultimately with all her credibility was able to say, its time. And we can now transition our astronaut transportation to and from the space station to the private sector not part of the book, but you well lay out sallies credibility and how she earned it and how important she has been. I think not just to nasa but to the nation. And then at her death to find out that she had a female partner, you interviewed tam, tell us about that. I dont, i dont know that really much has been talked about since the New York Times obituary which stated matter of factually that she had a partner of 27 years so that was yeah. Tam was feras toik speak to as she also has many old, you know, tapes that sally used to record everything. She was very meticulous in takingng notes and writing things down, recording things and so tam shared some of those earl its with me. And it really made the book all that more vivid and great. Also, i be remiss if i didnt shout out lynn book about sally ride tam is also featured heavily in there, and sally sally ride biography is, you know, by lynn is, you know, really the definitive text about sally and she does a great job with that but one thing i love talking to tam about was, you know, obviously, they kept their relationship private. While sally was alive but then, you know, tam essentially came out when sally passed. And she told me, you know, she knew that she probably got some criticism about keeping that a secret. But a lot of people have messaged her since she came out and became public about it. And told her that, you know, her saying that she was sallys partner. You know, gave them the confidence encouraged to cool out themselves and be true to who they were. So i thought that was really fantastic thing to learn. And i think you know thats just it shows how much weight sally had while she was in the world and even when shes not. Shes still inspires people to this day. She absolutely does lynn chairs book the biography of sally, really is the ultimate work on her life, and she does go into more detail about these relationships and timing you cover it very well as well. And i im struck by this question which lynn teases out a little bit. When didid nasa know . Did people suspect . Theres so much speculation did you pack upon any of this . No i didnt. And you know, just to be clear sally was also married, you know, to steve holly when she was, you know, training to go to space. And when she was in space, so you know, and tam and i have talkeds about this too she probably was attracted to both men and women so maybe there wasnt, you know, there was no speculation happening at that n time. I know i did talk to one of sallys friends who mentioned that, you know, she had heard somebody a reporter was looking into sallys sexuality and that that really bothered her. When shell heard about that. But it ultimately nothing came of it. U but im pretty you know, obviously, we cant talk to sally now. But im sure there was a concern for that to come out because that would be, you know, all anyone talked about was the fact that she had a relationship with a woman before she came to the Space Program and you know, you know theres a reference to billy gene king how much scrutiny she was under when she became, you know, when she came out and, obviously, billy gene king was a role model for sally. As a fellow tennis player, so you know, probably just one more thing she had to think about that she probably shouldnt have had to think about at the time. And its indicative of the fact that you know, when sally flew, there was still quite a long ways to go many both, you know, how the country viewed women and how the country viewed, you know, gay people and, you know, she really really took on a very big burden when she when she stepped into that role. Yeah. That is a great point that i think both of us who knew sally felt when she died, of course, overwhelming grief. She wasnt even very open about her pancreatic cancer although i had seen her fairly recently obvious she wasnt well. But that head of nasa charlie boldmen asked me did you know that she was gay or bi and i said, no. But i wouldnt say its that surprising. Of course he knew steve holly her husband no reason to have really be questioned except that she was private. So the very thing that she was selected for almost, you know, as we were talking about one of the discriminators also played into this. And its interesting that for sally she didnt love and all of the interviews and all of the crazy questions that you outline and journalist asked her she was hoping for a day when the issue wupght fact that she was a woman and didnt want to add to that, another aspect of her private lives. So its understandable. But theres a visit that you discuss in the book where george abby who had selected her seem to think sally was a little nervous not herself before first flight. And he brought in one of sallys guest to the launch and she was a former girlfriend romantic relationship of sallies, and allowed her to go to the beach housebreak in quarantine to settle sally down. In sally was married at the time it wasnt astronautut steve holly r husband but molly. Hard to really imagine george didnt have a sense i mean, ill leave the speculation to others. But you know, he the way from what he told me he just knew that she was very close with molly andy that if anyone could make her feel more comfortable he wanted to provide that for her so i thought that was very sweet and most had a six sense of some kind. Yeah knowing george line he did that with a lot of people. So it could be anything. And rounding out now, weve got about 20 minutes to go, we have more general discussion about women at nasa specifically women astronauts at nasa and you mentioned, i think in the close in the epilogue that in a years after the six left their mark on nasa, and the world the ranks of women and the Astronaut Corps. Continued to swell. You say later maybe not as much as it should. They haveth not really im just wondering how you chose that language because there were six astronaut females in this class. Weve only one other time had more than six in a class. Only thats true. For next 20 years only two or three. To be fair, though, this is one of the larger classes that weve had i think in a very long time im not sure when weve had other youad know, 35 people entered te Astronaut Corps. But youre right, and i did try to make that clear at the end, youar know, while weve had womn in every single class since the sixou arrived were very, very r away from reaching perry of any time one sixth of the people have gone to space have been women. So you know, its its still quite a ways to go, and then in terms of the statistics for women of color, its a dismal we are still trying to racing to catch up. So i am inspired by Nasa Artemis Program of sending first woman and person of color to the moon and i think theres there might be some debate as to whether or not, you know, that should be in nasas goal for the program. But i think its itst a great, you know, its a great way to move forward in the fact that they are putting these things top of mind is nice. But its still we have a lot of catching up to do. [laughter] yeah i think any of the six probably wouldnt love i know sally wouldnt have them particularly in advance saying it would be a woman. Again, she was earning for a time when this would be behind us and w we would have equity ad rather shocking that 45 years after the six were selected. Theres been only one astronaut class that had gender equity. That was under my watch im proud to say it was only eight people and we managed to get four. Of course i was not a sense, and the selection that was made just as i was arriving in 2009, i think it was three women out of 12 or something. Its been ive run percentages and we have a class in 96 that was 44 people. So well over the 35 and there were eight women but thats a similar percentage to what we had 20 years before. Yeah. Just every photo every photo of every class every marker of every class. Eight balls, you know, theyre justn, all gender, gendered term and im not sure why we cant get out of this. I am interested i think you get into a little 35 new guys is what the class of the six was known as. Tell me about how they picked that and what thats really standing for. T fo yeah it is really the tf ad g was their name for publicly it was the 35 new guys because there were 35 of them. And also i think and i say this in the book as well you know, that term is really indicative of what the women wanted to be. And you know, at the time they very much wanted to be just one of the guys. It was not in their nature to highlight themselves as women they wantedd to seemlessly fit n and that, you know, that was seen in all of the choices that may made theres a great moment in the bookow where anna and say snuck away to Department Store to go buy khakis and polo shirts that was the de facto uniform for engineers which still is by the way. At least based on my parents when they were working att nasa. [laughter] but yeah. That was you know, that was kind of how it was for women. Especially for the first women back in, you know, the 70s and the 80s. You know, you really didnt want to highlight the fact that you liwere, you know, a woman or tht you were a woman astronaut. You wanted to be an astronaut. I think we have evolved a bit in terms of how we see, you know, how we present those things today. You know, obviously, we want to be treated equally at least i know i do, and also im happy to celebrate the fact that im a woman. So i think they had to kind of try to fit in as of as possible in order for us to kind of celebrate those differences moving forward. But also the term tf and g has a cheeky second name which is the fa new guy a military term to refer to the fact that they knew they were the newbies and that, you know, everyone was looking at them with a side eye. [laughter] absolutely. Do tell us about your background. I hadnt noted that your parents worked at nasa. Yes. Ye what did they do . So thats why i really loved writing about the Shuttle Program was because its been near and dear to my heart for my entire life my parents worked their entireca careers and my mother was department chief orbiter engineer and my dad held a branch before they retired so, you know, i really grew up with the space Shuttle Program, obviously, on the engineering side it is very different. I learned that, you know, the engineering portion versus operations is very separated. So this was a chance for me to kind of dive into a part of the shuttle world that i really didnt know thatd well. And also you know, as a child, i say this all of the time but you know, i i gravitated away from space a bit. You know as a teenager, just because you know when your parents do something it is not necessarily always that cool. And i also didnt really, you know, studyly the shuttle as muh asdy i could have. It was kindd of just one of the things where my parents would wake up at three in the morning to go youhe know, cover a launch and then come home. You know that midnight at something crazy like that so it was really neat to dive into each of these shuttle flights that women were on like i said earlier you know learn more about the payloads, and what the objectives were and you know, how much they have to train and what kind of training entailed to go to space. So it really did kind of it was a beautiful full circle moment for me as someone who grew up with this program but didnt really appreciate it at the time. And are your parents still working at nasa . No they are happily retired and living enjoying their pensions. [laughter] and especially for your mom having a career like that and you know, a little bit in the book about not just the astronauts and how much we have how far weve come since the beginning of having women in these fields. Butds why do you think 45 years later were still not there . Either in operational or the Engineering Community or the astronauts . Well, i think when you put, you know, societal barriers in place they just take a very long time to dismantle i think, a great example is, you know, the choices that were made in the early days of the program. You know, for instance, space suits sizes you know, there was an effort to create the extra small upper torso which is part of the space suit. But so that it could accommodate smaller women. Smaller people s in general and that choice was not made ultimately so you know, years later it takes so long to make those developments and to build those, you know, that technology that those choices that we make reverberate through time so that all female space walk had to be rescheduled because of space suitsp sizes now, obviously, it didnt have to do with the fact with no extra small. But it just goes to show those choices we make they will have repercussions for years and even decades and so i think maybe that can speak to why its taken so long. Its just when it comes to space things take really long time to develop. We keep making the same mistakesth. Frankly i think men are making the decisions we get the extra extralarge we dont get the small. This has affected many women in the program who i have known over time. We say they are unintended consequences and we are working throughel that. To me i do feel there is a bias when you look at doctors and lawyers, law school, medical school, over 50 . Engineering is not one of those fields that is trending in that direction. As we have been talking about and continue to try to unearth the reasons. I know nasa is making attempts with artemis. You look at the Dragon Missions the white matter. We had a lot of time to make lithat selection. And all of our flights i think nasa just had the first flight that had the same number of women as men but one of the women was from it international program. And truthfully we were flying a lott more back and your story ws and 1985 or nine missions. As a five six people. Today were flying twice year yor massacres of four. There are not as many opportunities. Cracks are and i will say its a big itouch number very briefly at the end of the book. As more of the commercial Companies Come online and offer different ways to get into space there are more opportunities to send a widerpl open rate of peoe going out. I dont at this opportunities are being realized. Look at inspiration court mission i wasnt the first just make it was the first also delete mission that spacex flew out a private vehicle. That allowed for a very Different Group of people to go there two women on the flight one was a professor hundreds of Childhood Cancer survivor. So hopefully with cumbers like spacex and blue origin and Virgin Galactic they are offering new ways to get into space we never had before. Hopefully that means we can offer rides to people who had never gone to space otherwise. Obviously there still a bit of a barrier involved in that is your wallet. But with inspiration and when that recent Virgin Galactic flights there are charity raffles. There are benefactors who will pay your way for you. With cut companies and any industries were still dealing in terms of a bias representation and sexual harassment. Or they may offer new opportunities we met to continue to look behind the scenes make sure we are operating with everyone in mind it being in as inclusive as possible. It is a very unique time for people to be flying in space. Whether youre willing to call them w astronauts or not. I will not get into that debate. The benefactors have done a fantastic job. And that was the first space crew that was 50 female. But in general the millionaires hewho are able to bite seat from the billionaires have all been met. It is due to as i think some of these are benefactors have chosen to give away seats to a broader range of individuals that will trail off over time not only people willing to pay but the ones interested there is an element to this at his poll after poll shows more men are interested in going to space than women of course that means there plenty of women are willing to a go. But there is something about it that is different. I think these six what i liked about them and i dont know if it was part of a selection they did have a big range of their reasons and their interests we really, really point out. I am interested i think as a Government Program the nasa astronaut is where we can make the greatest impact. Not a hint in the book i wanted if you ever uncovered it of that women being in any way less capable or qualified them when they were on their flights. Whether their ability to do titheir job was in any way one thing . Not that i really uncovered. They definitely talked about theire struggles. Some obviously struggled in certain areas of training before they flew. They were so determined to be the best they couldth be that i did not cover anything from them that doubted their selection or they were worthy of the job in any way. It really comes out they all made incredible contributions on orbits and their missions. Ai think thats probably the ce with any astronaut you write about its been a focus on that for all the right reasons. And as we wrap up we have a couple bit its left as we talked be on the fix by men in t still happening. We recently have awo woman had a human Space Program we have not have ae female nasa administratr i want to for a female deputy ty administrators we have had. So still just t wondering and yu talk about this a little in the end of the book what is the head question if we had talked about artemis. Change will continue. Like i said it might be a little controversy over some of the fact Artemis Program has a goal of setting the first woman and the first person of color to the moon. That is a tactic that will get results. Just look at the Selection Committee that picked the first six women. That diversity and inclusion top of mind when they went to go select this class that dictated how they advertise for the program. They hired Michelle Nichols from star trek to come to a psa to reach out to folks. It dictated what university they went to print what groups what clubs they spoke with because they had that at top of mind that ultimately led to their success in finding women of color to come into the program. I think that is a good lesson for why its important to have these things top of mind when you go out and make those selections because it ultimately leads you to making decisions to make the goal successful. I can free up for debate but should be the Artemis Program to have the stated goals will lead to success maybe that is a lesson nasa can take with it as it moves toward you put these things top of mind you will find the right people for the job. That is a great message and great wrap up for this book review the untold story of americas first women astronauts. Lauren it is a beautiful story i really appreciate you telling it and talking to me about it today pickwick thank you so much it was a pleasure. 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