Internet providers, and were just getting started. Building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. Charter communications, along with these television cpanies, supports cspan2 the as a Public Service. Host hi, cara, its so wonderful to be here talking with you about your book. I wanted to first say what an extraordinaryy achievement. This book is the most authoritative history that ive personally ever read of the School Choice movement. It is so thoroughly researched,s it is really, it really feels ensigh crow encyclopedic to me almost. I wanted to first ask, im obviously very familiar with your incredible work as an education reporter, and i know a lot of education reporters have these sort of crystallizing moments in reporting where were many in a classroom or with a family, and and we have an aha moment. Im curious to know if you had one of those moments that led youu to start writing this book. Guest thats a good question. I think, i think, you know, i start thinking about psychological Choice MovementSchool Choice movement when i was reporting about segregation in florida. And as a part of that reporting, we interviewed, our team interviewed just dozens of families that were essentially trying to escape these segregated, sort of low performing schools in in this particular county in florida. And ior was sort of struck by wt the options were, you know . There werere other public schoos potentially, magnets potentially, Charter Schools, and then some of the kids were using School Vouchers to go to private schools. And we followed some of the kids, and, you know, and i just it wasnt part of that series at all, but it just struck me as sort of this tension between the systemic reform of a system and what a family actually does when they havent found a good fit for their child. And so that that just kind of a stayed with me, and i didnt have much to do with it, you know, as far as that particular piece of work. But it kind of was the tart of thinking about the history of School Choice. Host and so you start this book, and i wont spoil the end, but i know that the book starts in the 1950s, sort of pre andut postbrowns v. Board of education as a lot of Southern States began recysting the court orders resisting the court orders. Why did you pinpoint that as the origin point of the School Choice movement . I imagine that some people in the School Choice movement would not be particularly proud that thats the beginning of their movement. Guest yeah, and i think that theres, you know, theres some awkwardness about that, right . But with i think, you know, one of the things i was sort of trying to figure out when i was trying to decide how to start the book is looking for where does this idea begin. And its actually quite hard to pinpoint where the idea begins. It starts with Milton Friedman, you know, an economist writing an essay about vouchers in the historyy and the in the 50s. Nothing sort of happens. Friedman keeps this idea alive, and then in 1990 milwaukee starts the first school vouch arer program in the country, the first modern one. Thats sort of the history that you hear. But then theres other pieces of American History that you kind of arere to go back to. You have to look at what the Founding Fathers intended for education and how that developed because there wasop an agreement there wasnt agreement aboutna how to educate the nations children. You can look at what happened with catholics, you know, coming into this country. We have all of this integration of catholic people immigration of catholic people, andst a Common School system was forming at that time in the 1800s, but it was distinctly protestant. You could also start with the catholics and that whole piece of the history. So i kind of was grappling with, well, what makes sense at the beginning. And i decided 1950 not just because of segregationists. I thought what was interesting about that time period was that you did is have Milton Friedman writing this essay about School Vouchers. You also had sort of a headser known figure in virgil blum who was a priest in milwaukee who was very much interested in School Vouchers for religious liberty, to r help are religious families attend private school and and particularly Catholic Schools but not explicit to that. And so you had these two voices, and at the same time you had segregationists who were interested essentially privatizing the School System to avoid brown. And it started in the leadup to brown, and it seemed clear that, you know, we were movingan in tt direction,ed and it intensified postbrown. But i thought, you know, that time period is sofas may noting because you start to see so fascinating because you start to see how you could take one mechanism in School Vouchers and use it for a lot of different purposes. And i felt like today were still havingam some of those sae threads, some of those same questions about vouchers, what retheyre for, what theyre not for, does it help or hurt the public system ask and how to you factor in sort of values, or you know . Religious education into that. Soli i felt like some of those debates from the 1950s are still in play. And so thats why i decided to start there. Host well, i found the beginning of the book to be one of the host intriguing and compelling parts partially because it is so drama. Its very emotional, and it really has to do with one of the, you know, biggest cases in u. S. Supreme court i history. I obviously encourage the viewers to the pick up the book and read it, but can you walk us through a little bit how brown v. Board of education and how desegregation gave birth to a School Choice movement . Guest well, so its interesting, you know, there wae sort of indications that brown was coming down the line. There had already been a few court cases that were at the university level, desegregation cases at the university level. So so it seemed clear next would be the k12 system. So it kind of started in georgia. That was one of the first places where there were influential voicessa saying, you know, we essentially need to give up Public Schools rather than desegregate them. And it was, one thing i found interestingha in the research is before internet and really widespread availability of news in the way we understand it now. And yet these voices in georgia were picked up by national media, so there was an awareness that this was happening. And i thought that was kind of interesting. And then sort of watching how it spread, right . Because georgia came up with sort of in thisa idea of were going to privatize the School System. Not just vouchers. Vouchers were sort of like an escape mechanism for students. They were talking about leasing buildings, you know, to private entities, they were talking about putting private schoolteachers be eligible for state t benefits. They were talking about a wholesale privatization of the system. Not just vouchers. Andt so i thought that was sort of the interesting example of how you might use vouchers. But brown itself was just this sea change for education this america. And in america. And so how the south reacted to it was incredibly interesting. But there was also this sort of tension there of segregation exists in the north. Its its not just a southern thing. And then how that kind of factored into the future of School Vouchers, you know . Families fleeing the south and then encountering different types of discrimination in the north. And so i just, i find that whole period of time just so interesting. Host so, basically, its i realize this is an oversimplification, but a9 lotrs of states created Voucher Programs for white families to integration so they would not have to seven their send their children to school alongside guest yeah, it was sort of a less extreme measure, and i found that kind of startling when i was doing the the research, because it seems like an extreme measure. But this was considered sort of a moderate alternative to just closing schools which did happen in a few places. And so it was sort of viewed as this escape mechanism, as i said, to let white families and their children to allwhite schools, allwhite private schools. It also when it started being struck down by the courts, you know, the courts very quickly cut down a lot of the things and started striking down various laws that were passed. And then they tried to, you know, southern lawmakers tried to make the program sort of race neutral. And so then you did see tiny numbers of black students also using vouchers, but it was clearly a movement for white families to avoid desegregated [inaudible] host yeah. That, to me, is one of the most shocking things about that era are rah, that Public Officials would rather shut down Public Schools that they actually did not far from d. C. In parts of virginia rather than have integrated Public Schools. It was superior to integrated Public Schools. You mentioned that you found a lot of things really intriguing about. Im curious to know, having youve a been an education reporter for a sr. Long time. We are all, especially in florida, im sure you covered the debate over School Choice, over school reform. Floridas Like Laboratory of School Choice. What were some of the surprising things that you learned the in researching this book . Guest well, you know, it was interesting how willct little i actually did know, you know . And i was a reporter in florida for ten years, and, you know, and i you up in Washington State which has, essentially, no School Choice, very blue state. Not the part that i grew up in, actually, but overall. And, you know, washington has sort of Charter Schools a little bit,t but it was extremely, you know, contested in the courts. And so i grew up in a place of no choice, and then i moved to florida as an education reporter, and and i spent ten years there. And, youd know, theres tons of choice. So i was sort of unfamiliar with it. And you know as an education reporter so often, youre focused on covering the local schoolol district. Essentially covering the government agency. And so to me, ive spent a lot ofun time first just trying to understand how the system works, understanding how florida finances its schools, you knowing . Kind of basic things. And is sort of bumping into choice from time to time, you know . I might cover a Charter School that was getting shut down by a schoolol district, you know, tht had oversight, oversight of a Charter School. And so i might cover that, but i wasnt necessarily really tuned in to the history of it all. And, you know, i would sort of run up against the debate for it, but when i was there, it was sort of an established thing already, you know . The court case that truck down a particular voucher struck down the particular Voucher Program in florida had happened, and so it was sort of interesting to me when i started researching it. I didnt know nearly as much as i thought i knew, i guess is the way to say it. And so lots of things were revelatory to me. I mean, more than, or more than i would like to admit, you know, i really was familiar with sort of the stylized history, that it started with Milton Friedman and then kind of Nothing Happened and then milwaukee. And i didnt even know that much about milwaukee, to be honest. Host its interesting too because i think especially if we are really myopic and look at this in the present day, we might view these issues to be kind of strictly bipartisan. Republicans are in favor of School Choice, the democrats are against it. But thats really not the case even going all the way back to the origins. I really liked the anecdote you shared about the sort of treaty of School Choice in both a rightwing and leftwing publication. Can you talk a little bit about how, how this, how School Choice sort of defies a lot of the rules that we haveat come to thk of, you know, that split issues into halves . Guest yeah. That was one of the things that i think kept me going doing all of this research. You know, i spent five years on it. It was the sort of surprising moments in the research. And one of them, i think, really was the idea that this was not strictly a rightwing thing. And certainly in the present day, you know, School Choice is incredibly polarizing. People have very, a very strong feelings about s it. There does not really seem to be middle ground. I have gone in surgery of middle ground search of middle ground, and i have not found much. So one of the things i thought was surprising was sort of this idea of overlap, you know in you start the book in 1950, you have theses overlapping ideas from voucher advocates, and you have Milton Friedman, you have virgil blum. So then these programs that were started in the south, they started very quickly to get shut down. But, of course, in the late 50s and into the 60s, but during the 1960s even as the courts are saying these programs are essentially racist, theyre trying to thwart brown, you had these voices coming in, and some ofiv them wering progressive voices saying, you know, school vouch or ors could actually be a tool l of empower ifment for the low income kids and particularly for black children. Andan i thought that was so startling, that you would bein making an argument like that at the same moment that the courts are saying these programs are thwarting desegregation and they needeg to en. And so i thought that overlap fascinating. And some of those people, you know, christopher mentioned that anecdote who wrote in two different coordinating magazines about this idea he was, you know, a fairly liberal sociologist at the time. And kenneth clark, who was actually involved in brown, he wrote an essay about this. You know, so so i thought that was something that i think is out there a little bit if if youre in maybe the Choice Movement, i think youre aware of some of those choices potentially. But i think the larger, you know, most people, i dont think, are actually aware of that. So i thought that was interesting. And youse see that essentially throughout the entire history which i also thought was fascinating. I mean, certainly it is the dominated by, the movement is dominated by conservatives. But theyre not the only voices. And so i found that kind of intriguing, and it made me sort of dig a little deeper into, okay, well, then how did that sort of work, you know . How did these different ideas sort of play againstai each other, you know . And i thought it was interesting that youve had Milton Friedman essentially debating some of those other voices about how you do vouchers. Host yeah, it is really astonishing. On one hand in the south, you had School Choicing with use choice being used to avoid integration to avoid a mayor ruling onhe civil rights. In the north, i suppose, and and i think milwaukee is a great example of this, you had people arguing this is actually a tool of empowerment for black families. I think really theres nobody who really embodies that contradiction more than Polly Williams in milwaukee who, to me, was a very, very fascinating character. Can you talk a little bit about her and her role in the movement . Guest sure. So Polly Williams was a black Democratic State legislator in milwaukee, wisconsin. And she was, shes passed away now the, but she was a really interesting woman because she was deeply interested in education, but she was opposed to integration. And she was very much, i mean, i think i would call her a black nationalist, you know . She was very interested in helping her community. She was very interested in trying to sort of make institutions work for black families. And she, she didnt think that the Milwaukee Public School district was working for black children. So she did a number of things trying to sort of improve the system. And one of the things that she was opposed to was busing. He thought, essentially, that integration in milwaukee was falling tooof hard, the burden f it was largely on black families. And she didnt think that it was actually doing much to help black children. She didnt think they were benefiting w from being bussed o another school. So, you know, some of her policies were attacking integration policies. Some of the things she proposed, like, one of the ones i think that got the most attention was that she and Howard Fuller whos a civil rights activist involved inin the Movement Made a proposl for an allblack School District. And, you know, that was one of the ones that really got headlines. But in a lot of different ways, she was trying to improve education. Anded it felt like she really wasnt getting a lot of support from her own party, from democrats and sort of became open to this idea of School Vouchers. And she was, you know, held say, she was quoted as saying that it wasnt about Milton Friedman, she didnt necessarily have a familiarity with Milton Friedman. For w her it was very much thiss something that could help black students essentially leave the School System that she thought was failing them. And so i thought here is someone who embodies some of these contradictions because you dont want to give it all away, but she became somewhat disillusioned with some of her White Conservative allies over time. And so i thought her story spoke to a lot of the different sort of questions and debates and the tension in all of this. Thats one of the reasons i focus on her and also because milwaukee was one of the first modern program, so it made sense to focus some attention there. Host you basically had a woman who you would describe as a black nationalist representing a majority black city, partnering with white lawmakers, conservative white lawmakers. Guest yeah. And she called it, she called it the unholy alliance, which which i actually, it was actually the original title of the book. I thought that was great in so many ways. It is not, ited the not it did not really say education to a lot of people or, and i used it just forch a chapter title. But i thought that kind of, that Short Description really did of speak to the strangeness of the alliance thatt she made with Tommy Compton who was the white republican above at the time. Host yeah. I think thats one of the things that makes education reporting so fascinating, is that there are no clear partisan boundaries on a lot of these issues, and i think School Choice is probably the best example of that. What do you want people to take awayro from this book . What do you hope that theyll conclude or learn once they finish this book . Guest well, i really was trying to go into it as a journalist is someone without a viewpoint, you know . I felt like there are ooh pieces of in this history around, and theres a thurm of partisan books, you know, for or against School Choice. And so i felt like i wanted to create something that would explain all of this history that i thought i hadnt known as a reporter that i thought was helpful in understanding whats going on in education right now. And i wanted it to be sort of neutral and fathermined which actuallyi is kind of hard becae i think people want you to make an argument and pick a side especially witht something thas polarizing. So what i was hoping for was people that are maybe less familiar with School Choice that are watching the news right now and seeing sort of this landslide of choice legislation, all in thissing activity and all this discussion about parental freedom, all these things kind of dominating the news. What i would hope is that someone could read the book and at least are a good understanding of how we reached this place and know where some of this was coming from. And, you know, i had some sort of driving questions in the introduction about what does this mean for Public Schools and what does it mean for democracy and sortcr of what do we owe our communities. But i did want to answer i didnt want to to answer those questions. I wanted that to be for the reader to answer. Host again, i wont spoil thee ending, but the main meatf the book sort of ends around 2018, 2019, prepandemic. You do go into the pandemic and whats going on currently in the introduction a little bit. But what, if we were to look at the period of time between when your bookends and the current period, you know, you called it the death of Public Schools. You do sort of suggest that this movement will go stronger. If we look at that period of time, does it prove your thesis, does it how do you reflect on whats happened since the book ends in relation to your book . Guest yeah. So i didi end in 209, and i 2019, and i was sort of, i was sort of looking for an ending because its weird to be writing something where its dominating the news cycle. Which, you know, that wasnt happening when i started the book around 2017. It very much was happening as a i was finishing the book, you know . The the pandemic happened, and it was a really strange thing because i was sort of living through that. And my own children were out of school and doing Remote Learning and then home schooling for a period of time. And i had an infant [laughter] it was kind of a disaster actually. But it was interesting because, so then the pandemic kind of opened up, you know, i think the political opportunity for republicans, you know, to really push School Choice legislation in a way that we hadnt seen for a while. And so there was just this crazy avalanche of School Choice legislation. And there was also kind of a shift in argument for it, right . The argument previously had been a lot about empowering certain groups of students, you know, students with disabilities, low income students, and there had been a really strong argument that this was actually a civil rights issue. And then somewhere during the pandemic it shifted a bit, and it started being a little bit about about parental freedom for everyone. And there were a few pieces that came out, you know, the Heritage Foundation had a piece come out where the authors were essentially arguing that republicans should use the culture wars, you know, the stuff about crt and dei and these things to push are legislative wins, essentially, for School Choice. And when i saw that come out, i was really struck by it because its rathers different than making an argument thats centered around civil rights. And then we started to to see, you know, republican lawmakers passing laws restricting how you can teach about history and particularly black history. And so i was looking at this period of time and trying to figurefi out what it means. And i, you know, i think its interesting because its made the book very relevant. But i kind of, you know, for a history book, i felt like i cant end this, you know, literally as new laws are passing. We cant have the ending be with something that thats, like, shifting stand. So i kind of shifting sand. So i kind of thought i will deal with it in the introduction. I think its very much pointing in a direction. It certainly feels like the argument i was making in the book is real and true and that these thingsin are happening especially when we look at some of the Supreme Court cases, you know . But i felt like it was still a little early to say how all of this would shake out. Because i think right now were starting the school year and all this legislation is passed, and were just now starting to see the numbersth of people who are actually going to take the state up on some of these new programs. If no one actually uses the program, then its not creating a sea change, you know . Butt were starting to see, actually, the numbers really increase. And so i think it does point in a direction that is, you know, not great for the public School System. Andd i feel more and more confident about the argument that i was making. But i still think there are some pretty Big Questions about where it all ends up. Host yeah. Im trying to be conscientious that this is one education reporter talking to another education reporter. Can you talk a little bit about what has happened since the bookended in book ended in 2018 . It seems like we are living through a pretty Extraordinary Part of the School Choice movement. Can you talk the a little bit about what has happened since the pandemic started . Guest yeah. I mean, i think, i think theres been this explosion of choice legislation. Theres huge expansion, more than halflf the states in the country now have choice programs. Theres also been kind of an interesting backlash against Charter Schools which had been sort of the more popular and accepted education reform from choice, you know, that had bipartisan support. When President Trump came into office and when betsy devos became the education secretary, i think that administration was so polarizing that it has ripple effects in choice, and we did see some of the democratic backlash against Charter Schools, you know . And that, that,s i think, is still playing out a little bit. But now we have also this question of whether or not theres going to be religious Charter Schools which is kind of a wildcard thing that thats still playing out even in the last few months. But i think the overall thing that has happened is that theres just been in this massive expansion of School Choice legislation. On and one of the key things within that has been, you know, to push for yawn versal School Vouchers universal School Vouchers which which means theyre no longer limited to low income children or just students of but the idea that every family is entitled to take some amount of tax dollars and then pay, you know, use it to pay for the education thatti suits them. And it varies a little bit by state. But generally speaking, you know, that means home schooling and private education and, you know, if you want to use with it for tutoring, online learning. And so i think that piece of it has really gone universal. Its one of the biggest things that weve seen, and for many, you know, or the argument i was making in the book was sort of looking at whose vision for School Choice sort of wins out in the en, you know . Is it Milton Friedman who very much was in favor of universal vouchers for everyone, or is it sort of more Polly Williams who very much view ised it et as a tool for viewed it as a tool for low income children. And i think right now were really seeing that its friedman. You know,e its universal vouchers that sort of wins the day. Host and maybe the priest, blum, who really wanted the opportunity to have more taxpayer dollars towards religious schools. Guest yeah. Virgil blum is sort of a lesser known figure, and i talked to people in the School Choice movement who dont know who he is, which is interesting because he really sort of predicted a lot of this in a way and was arguing in a direction that thousand were seeing the Supreme Court pick. He was making the argument in the 50s and 60s, you know . And its really, that was really interesting in the research, to look back at some of the things hehe was writing decades and decades ago that are still relevant today. So, yeah, i think the religious liberty aspect of it is also having a moment. Host yeah. One of these i have been writing a lot about the religious Charter School and if a Catholic Diocese wants to open a virtual Charter School which means it would be entirely funded by taxpayer dollars. And theyve said, you know, her sort ofar picking and choosing which federal laws they would abuyed abide by. Im curious to know how much you think Christian Nationalism is playing into the current School Choice movement. Because there are obviously people who believe that the u. S. Was founded as a Christian Country and that, therefore, we shouldal allow taxpayers to support Christian Education in the schools and that even Public Schools should have some christianity taught. How much do you think thats playing into the current School Choice movement . Guest i mean, its interesting to me because i think its a lot more relevant thousand actually than it was. Now actually than it was. You know, i use virgil blum in the book sort of to stand in for a lot of those issues, you know . But actually when you look at how School Choice happened, how, you know, it passed legislatively, it had very little to do with a push for religious education, you know . Thats not how milwaukee or cleveland really happened. And, i mean in the sense of how it passed and how they formed, you know, how that shifts to get the legislation to pass. You know, that wasnt really a piece of it. I its interesting now because its very much a part of it in a way that i think it wasnt, you know, in the 90s and early 2000s. Religious schools were included, verge hi included in milwaukee, and cleveland started with them. So it raised all those churchstate the questions, but it wasnt sort of the argument that people within the movement were making for why we needed it, right . It wasnt about pluralism and the United States history as a Christian Country. I wasnt sort of about that. And its interesting because the Supreme Court, you know, essentially validated clevelands vouchers in 2002, and one of the lawyers involved in that case. In a piece afterwards in the new york times, he was quoted as saying if the case had been if the justices viewed the case as being about religious religion, then it wasnt going to go anywhere. If they viewed it as being about a education, then they had a shot at winning. And they the did end up winning. So its kind of striking to see that so many of the arguments for commission reessentially about values for choice are essentially about values and pluralism that the country has thisst history, you know, of so many different people from so many different places, different religious views all being here together, you know, and that people should be allowed to select an education based on theirr values. And i just find it interesting because there one really as big of a thread in host of the history as it is now. Apart from maybe if you want to go back to the and talk about catholics. You know, that was very much that. But its kind of interesting to watch it now because this isnt what it wasat about not too long ago. Host yeah. I mean, i i think that was anotr really fascinating nugget to me, that, you know, we though that the Catholic Church has a very, very robust system of schools and that they developed because the Public Schools were overtly protestant. That was really, really interesting to me. Guest yeah. You know, the catholic School System is sort of, its sort of interesting to watch this play out with the religious charter, you know, because it is the archdiocese that made the application. Its like if it opens, its going to be an explosively Catholic Virtual School because catholics are not monolithic on the issue of School Choice. Theres always been, there have always been ad a slow candidates like blum who wanted more state advocates like blum who wanted more state aid. And he believed that Catholic Schools were providing a Public Service. Catholic schools tend to be good, you know, they tend to have that reputation that. And so he really thought these schools were providing a Public Service and deserved funding and also that religious families shouldnt be taxed for a system that they are not, you know, participating in and then the also beth paying tuition, you know . He thought that was discrimination. But its interesting because the religious Charter School opens a lot of questions about government intrusion and government oversight and so not everyone in the School Choice movement, you know, is actually in favor of that. So i found that kind of interesting too, to watch people say maybe this isga the legally permissible and and well see. But maybe its its not a good idea either. Host yeah, that is one thing, again, that really shows that School Choice is still even now that its very polarized not a cleanly partisan issue because you have advocates for Charter Schools, for example, who are coming out existencing this religious Charter School because they believe a Charter School should be public and should follow all the same laws is and rules that Public Schools do. Im curious to know too, like, how much and this is something i reflect if on a lot especiallyci in covering the politicsf of education movements and the politics of education. Were streakily talking to adults who have their own agendas who bring an ideology, who want to make political wins. In reflecting on this book, how much was this about kids . Guest thats a great question. Youno know, i, ive isnt some time as i was writing the book thinking about the fact that this was much more a legal history than i realized, and it was much more about politics than i realized. And, you know, and that pushed things in an interesting direction as a reporter was with ii had because i had first become interested in it because i was following families and interviewing children and watching them go to different schools and sort of seeing their experiences of, you know, was this a good escape from Public Schools, was it, you know, watching people sort of bounce around, essentially, looking for the right fit. And then to be doing sort of the writing and the research and realize that actually a lot of this is political argument, a lot of it is legal argument, and, you know, its maybe his about kids than i thought in certain respects. That was sort of startling in a way. And i think students are at the heart of the conversation, theyre at the hart of the debate because its essentially about willing to educate the nations kids and whatic is pubc education. You know, you hear republicans making an a argument that Public Education is actually any education paid for with tax dollars which is rather different than the traditional understanding of what Public Schools are, . And so it is sort of, it is sort of interesting to see the kids being a little bit with secondary sometimes to a legal argument and sort of this political maneuvering. One example i had in the book that i thought was more about political maneuvering and less about children was what happened with washington, d. C. s program verypr early on when republican lawmakers were making some of the first proposals for d. C. To have School Vouchers. The vouchers were worth so little that even the private schools in keyes were saying, you know, this isnt going to a pay our tuition. You need so much more hundred to headacheul this meaningful, you know . So i asked a few School Choice advocates, what was this really about. Because it didnt actually seem to be about opening a bunch of doors for children, with the first proposal. Im not talking about later on. And people told me it was more about keeping the argument alive, you know, than taking thinking it was actually going to happen. Especially at that time of the democratic prosecute. Host so, basically, there was a proposal for a Voucher Program that wouldnt have actually allowed any children to leave Public School to attend a private school. Guest yeah, basically. Host and so i guess sorry, go ahead. Guest by i was going to say, its hard to square an argument that this is about kids, right . And i think some democratic lawmakers sort of pointed out at the time sort of the hypocrisy of that. D now, the program when it did as pass, the voucher was worth a lot more. And so then you might be able to say this is a lot more about actually Opening Doors for children. But that that very early proposal, it was just, i just thought it was striking when you have private School Leaders saying, or you know, this isnt enough to be meaningful. Host and im really interested in the fact that you with actually started, you know, your interest in thiss topic cae from actually reporting on families who are trying to make these decisions rather than the other way which is typically how it happened. How did your reporting in Pinellas County in florida, many sitting with these families in trying to decide whether they were going to use the Voucher Programar or send their child ta Charter School, how did that inform the way you did your research and how you wrote the book. , guest well, you know, its interesting because i wasnt, as i said, i wasnt super familiar with all the ins and outs of the history of School Choice. And i was also very much not focused on that, you know, what i was covering in the county was very much about one School Districtingki making, you know, kind of this horrible decision to essentially resegregate their schools and then what happened over time as those schools were sort of bled of resources. That was very much my focus. And i really thought that piece ofri work, it was five stories, that series, spoke to, you know, segregationn and integration asa potential solution. And i thought it was sort of interesting when, you could very much view it through the lens of whether a person was for or against choice. And so some people who read that thought, well, the solution to desegregated schools is to give children choice, to give them the ability to leave. And other people viewed it as very much a bid for more school resources, they these more funding, more veteran teachers x sof i became kind of aware of te sort of polarizing reactions to it in the aftermath, but i wasnt focused on that when i was reporting it. The thing ill really did sort of take away from it was watching families who had choices technically but maybe not good ones, you know . And so maybe you had a family who was in this so the of underresourced, segregated elementary school, you know, Public School and maybe theres a Charter School nearby that they cansc go to. But its actually not doing much better than the school that they came from. It has many of the same issues. And so maybe they found a private school with a voucher vouch every. So the thing that stuck with me was this tension between systemic reform which can take a long time and what do you do for your child right now. And that is kind of actually what informed a lot of the reporting and the research for the book. It was sort of looking at where that fit into this history and kind of how that played out. Theres and i imagine i know the answer to this host and i imagine i know the answer to this. But when families were weighing what they were going to do, where they were going to send their child and when you were to doing in this reporting, were they thinking about politics . Were they thinking about the fact that sending their child or using a voucher could be a win for jeb bush or what were some of the things that they werere actually thinking about . Guest no. Politics wasnt in it at all, youwa know . And thats one thing, you know, i tried to highlight a little bit in the book. I have a very sort of short section with are you kind of have to zoom out a little bit from this argument and move away from that and look at, well, what are the families actually looking at, you know . Theyre not the really concerned about church, state, legal history, you know in theyre not necessarily having the sort of political debate or viewing this at all through that lens. Its very much about, you know, does this school have recess which the Public Schools that i wrote about in Pinellas County, some of them did not even have recess at the time. You know, some of the classrooms were so stark that they, you know, they made me want to cry when i left them. I feltil bad that children weren those schools. Some of the, some of the families i talked to were very worried about safety, you know . Some of their kids had been hit or kicked or, you know, theyve experienced violence in the schools, and so safety was a concern, you know . They were just, system of the actual concerns had nothing to do with politics and and very much to do withh how is my child going to navigate the school day, are they going to learn to read, are hay going to go outside and play sometimes . You know, is the school a joyful place . Is it focused on test prep, you know . All ofof these things that are very familiar to me as a park andan sometimes parent and sometimes get, i think, lost a little bit in the debate and maybe should be grappled with more. Host yeah. I think one of the, also one of the most fascinating things i recall from the book is when betsy devos showed up at a school in milwaukee to talk about School Choice, to promote if School Choice. She, of course, is probably the mostiz polarizing education secretary this history, drew a lot of protesters, and a black parent blocking his child said youre talking about somebodys kid. What do you think that moment sort of shows us about the School Choice movement . Guest yeah. Youow know, i, i really appreciated that school in milwaukee for letting me sort of come in. I wasnt there for the protest. I visited that school later and interviewedan families, and that particular scene that that that man recounted for me, you know, that kind of came from the families who were a little bit sort of hurt and maybe irritated that this debate was essentially about their child without sort of the recognition that it was about their child. And, you know, andkn what i thought was interesting, there was stuff, a lutheran private school in milwaukee, the its a fairly High Performing School becausee milwaukees Program Requires a certain amount of accountability you can actually compare test scores. And its not the fairly high performin schools, its considered one of the maybe better schools that takes vouchers. Its predominantly black, predominantly low income. It may still be now. But one of the things that the parents picked up on was that many, many of the protesters, most of the protesters were white, and he were very much reacting to betsy devos who, you know, as you said, is a really polarizing figure herself. But i thought this is so interesting as far as all of these threads that i was sort of following in the history, you know . Because it was about race, it was about who was using the School Vouchers and it was about who was protesting the School Vouchers. And, you know, i thought there were some things sort of crystallized in that moment where i could sort of direct the readers attention a little bit more to familieses and how of living this out and what theyre interested in. And maybe use that protest to sort of get at some of those things. Host you know, one of the things that is really interesting is that race is a thread that thats pretty much unavoidable throughout the book, you know in its pretty to overt at the beginning. White families are using School Vouchers to escape integrated Public Schools. But, you know, things get sort ofam muddled. Obviously, at the same time, a lot of black leaders are saying this is a tooll for empowerment. Can you talk a little bit about the surprising ways that race has played into the School Choice business . Guest yeah. This is one of the things that also was sort of captured by when i was doing the research. If youre starting sort of in this time period in 1950, you know, segregation and thats one of the main elements, at the beginning when treadman and blum were making their argument and you kind of track that over time, you know, race is unavoidable. Its a major part of the history and, frankly, i think the argument that this is a civil rights issue is sort of how, you know, School Choice advocates essentially won the day, you know, legally speaking, and made their case to the public in a lot of ways. And so its interesting to see, you know, how that, how that tension plays out. Because with you also have black families and latino families who are opposed to School Choice, you know, and you kind of have to grapple with that. Milwaukee had a lot of support from black leaders, you know . Pol hi williams was very influential, but other black leaders were also many support. And they had a lot of sort of grassroots support from black families. But cleveland actually didnt. And i thought that was interesting because a lot of black legislators in ohio actually were opposed, you know, very muchmu opposedded to School Vouchers. Ath and they felt like this is going to lead resources out of the School System, you know . Its not going to help enough kids to make it meaningful while it actually pulls things out of a system that needs help and needs if resources. And so i felt likeing you know, i wanted to sort of make those different points, that this wasnt all one thing. It wasnt supported you know, it wasntf this kind of monolithic thing. And it played out consistently in different cities. In washington, d. C. Whenac initially some of the black democratic lawmakers were opposed to School Vouchers, and then i think because the city School System was not doing well, came around on the issue, you know . And so i just, i tried to look for different elements of the history that sort of exposed some of those threads and the different ways that race played into it. Host one of the most and i dont mean to touch the third rail here, i think one of the most controversial assessments ive heard of School Choice, and you get into this in the book is that White Conservatives are using black families, black leaders and purposefully starving Public School resources to advance School Choice, that theyre, quoteunquote, using them. With Polly Williams, there was actually a white leader who openly said we used Polly Williams for her race and for her party. What do you think of that assessment that some people against the School Choice movement are made that black families and the black community is being used to advance these arguments . Guest you know, i think i found that interesting as well. But i think, you know, you have to actually talk to black families and to black leaders. You know, floridaly will quality is gone Polly Williams is gone, but she addressed that during her high time. She did not feel used. She had different intentions for choice than some of her allies did, and she was extremely comfortable calling them out publicly when she felt they were going in a direction that she didnt agree with. Youul know, Howard Fuller, who also was in the book and is an influential School Choice advocate nationally and from milwaukee, you know, he sort of addressed that too. And hadas differents of his own with some of differences of his own with some of his White Conservative allies. And some of those differences really came out over accountability for the programs. Some of the people like fuller and williams wanted greater accountability for the program because they saw some of the problems for families when things didnt go well, like a school to closed, you know . So i think its not for me to say if conservatives are using black families or black leaders. I think its for them to say, right . Because i think they have agency. He said hes a joyous advocate and hes a black man. He addressed this and said understood and pushed him out front and center and of the end of the day he thought School Choice was the best tool of empowerment for black families and all families relate. Its maybe more nuanced answer to that charge. I dont want to leave traditional Public Schools out of the conversation. What has this meant what do you think its going to be in the future as the schoolue Choice Movement continues . To figure this out a little different depending on where it is, wena are seeing it play out regionally, red states are passing but its not promotable. Charter schools and greater regulation. Some of the early rejection and have these programs talking a lot more than anticipated and peak are part because they are already in private school. I wonder if theres not going to be backlashh or attempt to deal with learning goals. I wonder if republican can go back, so at the end of the day ise only so much money, you dot have the ability to plan as a School District or traditional Public School. I do think its going to be different in florida versus where i grew up in washington. We are out of time, thank you so much. Its been a great conversation. The book is wonderful. Take you so much. If you enjoy book tv, sign up using the qr code on the screen and receive a schedule of upcoming programs, offer discussions, book festivals and more. Book tv every sunday on cspan2 or anytime only a booktv. 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