The university of san diego and accomplish for this individual andis this book is comprehensive idea and its overarching and no matter how many libertarians you love or hate or have arminged with, libertarianism is much, much more diverse than you probably think. We try to show that diversity through the whole history both to shed light on current state of Libertarian Movement and future possibilities for libertarianisms its an issue that areto throughout the United States struggling with a great deal to write the book and much harder term to pin down than one might expect and getting into the book, whos your coaurothoraand it was john. We talk about importance of individual dignity and freedom and talked about the ideas of free markets and limited government but what you saw in the 19th century was a kind of radicalization of those libertarianisms and markets were sack rosinate and experience and government power with a slippery slope which if left unchecked would meet us inevitably down to socialism. Thisfr is an tiff sis of freedom and need to stand against. This is mid 19th century and 1850s or so. He devoted himself primarily to the free strayed in france and thought that restrictions Certain Industries that this was economically foolish and also a unjust user patient of individual liberty. He dedicated himself at first to the primarily task of free trade policies. The system of liberty and in britain you had the primary spencer who was not much remembered today and the father of social darwinism and somewhat unjust charge and its the first sismatic treat and spencer set up the idea of the freedom and if he goes out and explains what that implies in terms of Property Rights and in terms of government welfare system in terms of right for children and women that was radically progressive on both womens and childrens Rights Holding that both of those groups who were denieded very many rights in the political circumstance. Ought to be entitled to as much rights as anybody else. Followers after the death and in the United States as well. These ideas of the quality were pretty radical given the politics of mid 19th century england and france. Thats right. You saw the same thing in the United States. Libertarianism didnt really emerge in the United States until a bit after equal egalitarian and libertarians in britain and france reacting against socialism and in america, there wasnt really any live socialist threats. The socialist in 19th Century America and voluntary small scale socialist and wanted to move out to the commune in the detective sign. It became libertarian and garrison as well known as an abolitionist and well known as libertarian anarchist and based on the same kind of fundamental logic and slavery is unjust impossession of authority by one human being over another. Well, isnt that what government is too . T government doesnt give our consent for all the talk for the one asking me and consent to pay taxes for the law and if slavery has a authority and why isnt government the same and garrison became on ab list ick ground ane sessionist ground and aso lot of libertarian ntsb 19th century United States awe socialists as their allies and socialists as basing their views on the same kind of world principles of libertarians. We think government is unjustly taken and with the coming over to the second wave and this is all what we call first wave libertarian. Second wave libertarian doesnt start till about the 1930s. Now were talking primarily about the United States. People coming from soviet union and frederick from austria and all the action here is sentedderred in the United States and whats sparking this reemergence and libertarian 20td if you think about the reasoning that led them to that conclusion, its not completely alien and most of us believe democracy has its limits and theres certaine things that just shouldnt be up for a vote. The competition does and ought to prohibit that kind of democratic government. Libertarians take that same logic but expand it much further. The libertarians believe theres a whole host of rights beyond just not being enslaved or not being enfranchised and that are essentially saccharosuint and more absolute and just because a large percent of people votes to abridge those rights we dont want to violate peoples Property Rights or bodily autonomy and political mechanisms that we use to enact those rights or enforce those rights, those are of secondary importance only so democracy is at best not a big deal, at worst maybe even destructive if it tends to lead to the first wave of libertarianism. Its substantially different and in the first wave in britain with the threat of them finding themselves with antisocialism and in america its very different and look i at 20th century United States and its radically, radically different from the 19th century libertarianism and people are talking about the libertarianism andd its the injustice of proft and rent and dont see any of that in 20th century libertarianism and 20th century libertarianism is looking a lot like 19th censure reigns leading british and french libertarianism and both reacting to them and against the threat of socialist. What you saw in the line and be more of the right wing conservative view and libertarianisms saw themselves as radical and saw themselves as progressives and saw themselves as people who wanted to fundamentally get started to shift pretty notably in the 20tt lingers on today and average person on the street where you placepl them on the left wing ad its fun and hard not to spend a lot of time with spooner. If youve seen a picture of the guy, google them and hes got a tremendous beard and looks like the conversation and the things never before and it was a bit of a prank and its a individualist and libertarians go their own way. They dont got wrong way and spooner fits up to that bill. He was a lawyer in the 19th century United States and he was a ab abolitionist and particular and they were incompatible with the constitution of the United States and went down with a tremendous influence of them on the line and it was a mainstream line and more and more radical after having written the constitutional flavor with another piece and it was a broadside going to be distributed to the nonslave holders ofm the south urging thm to essentially incite and support any slave rebellions hes given and given up on the Legal Process for them in slavery and these are people whose rights are systematic and agreeance basis and egregious basis and once its done for slaves and you can escape and capture a slave and you wrote up this pamphlet and the story gets better and sander spooners was passing a plot and john brown pays for that and this is great and im actually planning on doing Something Like this fairly soon. And if you go distributing your pamphlet,mp calling attention to it beforehand, thats going to shed a spotlight on me in a way i dont want and it was sander spooner with another plot and he was talked out of it and colorful character to say the least and one of the most interesting figures in the 19th century. Are weew currently in the thd wave of libertarianism and what is it . We are. What it is is something that remains yet to be determined and what really held libertarians together for most of the 20th century, what held libertarians andco conservatives together in a somewhat Uneasy Alliance for the to the f centuy was socialist and bit end of the 20th century, southeastism collapsed and well fallen in 989 and with it so too did the threat of International Socialism and military expansive force and collect chilly people around it intellectually and people who call themselves socialists now mostly believe in a market economy and we believe theres private ownership of the means production and should be a lot of regulation and heavy dose of redistribution of those who are left behind of the rising tide of the capitalist economy and socialism essentially died and when socialism died, libertarians looked at themselves and thought if were not going to define ourselves of being against that. What are we for . What positive thing are we standing for . Some socialists are sort of looking towards the right and some libertarians are looking towards the right and looking at Current Movement of the Republican Party with a national pop List Movement in asking is that where we find our home now adays and believe in the nation state and believe in a popular autonomy and looking to l the lt and blackck lives matter and asking about where we should be putting our energy and defending the rights of the oppressed and you see this both within the Libertarian Party and its been a big split between different factions, some kind of moving in a pompous direction and others in a modern form of classical liberalism and broader world of liberal ideas as well and libertarians figuring out what theyre against and thats what theyre for inhe the 20th centu. Would you describe contemporary Libertarian Party as pro business . No, i dont think its pro business. Libertarians have had an uneasy relationship with the Business Community. On the one hand libertarians support capitalism and support the rights of businesses to compete in the free market economy and profit as much as they wish. Of course libertarians have often defended for much of the 20th century and the presentt y on the Business Community for heavy dose of Financial Support and people like charles coke was a major donor to libertarian organizations and more to this present day. On the other hand theres a lot of what you see in american capitalism today that libertarians dont like, they they morally disapprove of. I think itsth economically ineffect and theres a system inefficient and theres aso lotf government favoritism and theres rules that describe certainno types of competition d its apo Favorite Corporation ad theyre against foreign competition and so what you get at the end of all this is its a market, but its not the kind of free market that libertarians envision and hope for. And so are they pro business . Yeah n a sense and they want business to flourish and want a level Playing Field and a far Playing Field in which you get to succeed or fail on your own merits and cousin is a state legislature and happen to put in a good word forrd you in latest appropriations bill. What is your blog, bleeding hearts libertarianism . Its the stat called bleed heart libertarian now. This was a we started a group blog about ten ten years ago by this name. It kind of fell apart and sort of resurrecting it. The idea there was really to convey the message that you could be a libertarian and still care about the pool or vulnerable or oppressed and these werent necessarily incompatible world ewes in a way that some think they were and youre a libertarian and individualist and you care about yourself and m not incompatible. They are symbiotic in a person way and the reason im a libertarian is because i believe itll benefit the poor and managerialized and i believe marginalized and state power and its often exercised and not for theab benefit and its against their interests. And so its a principle commitment to limiting the state and that seems like its going to cut off the support that the state currently provides for the lower classes. Actually when you look at where the government spends its money, most of the money the government spends is not on the poor and vulnerable but on the politically well connected and the economically well off. So i think that a principle commitmentd to libertarianism goes handinhand and its a message im trying to get out there to as many people as possible. University of san diego philosophy professor matt is the coauthor as long a john tomasi of the individualist, radicals, reactionaries and theru struggle for the soul of libertarianism. Thank you for being on book tv. My pleasure. Thank you very much. And again seems to be encumberes who either like him or dont like him by the millions to understand people read him or her not because they are interested in the topic of the day, but because they have come to like the play of his or her mind on the world. So they will read to her about baseball, politics, cyprus or some other issue no one really cares about. But because they like to see the writing. A colonist it seems to me