Transcripts For CSPAN2 Kori 20240703

Was mary, kori and marianne mather. He had it coming, nn on the map. Nancy, nancy. Kori has been a reporter and she she and colleagues collaborate with a nod to the yesteryear and together they find this in the Chicago Tribune newsletter. Marianne has been photo journalist and editor. And every facet of photography, the weekly editor of the tribune major. Curates. And rick writes for the Chicago Tribune, the creator, host laughter wgn radio sundays papers and the author of a dozen books. A chicago tavern, the history of the billy goat, sidewalks one and sidewalks two. And photographer charles osgood. Our moderator, mary is a journalist and teacher and her book was named best biography by the society of midland authors. Please help me welcome our distinguished guests. Nice. High, folks, thanks for braving the rain. So great to be here, rick, marianne, kori, and i just wanted to say that this book is so much fun. In alice in wonderland complains she doesnt like the look of her sisters book because there are no pictures or conversations in it. This book is all pictures and conversations in it. If youre a fan of chicago, or learning about chicago prime, this is just so wonderful. And its amazing that this book talks about 1924, which to me seems like modern times. But its 100 years ago. Its amazing to think about that. Just wanted to start off by asking a little bit, how you found these things and then well go into the landscape of what chicago was like 98 years ago. All right. Can you hear me okay with this . Well, the project not as a book, right . And i get to cureate the Photo Archives at the journal. I go down into the basement and dig through old negatives and folders with prints in them and usually im down there because im trying to find a specific thing for our weekly vintage tribune page which had been formerly known as flashback. And when im down there searching for one thing, its like a rabbit hole. You know, you found one thing and oh, gosh, look at that. If you know an inkling about chicago history you can usually come up with a handful at the archives. When i was down there, i found a box that said mom on it, and four or five glass plate negatives, theyre from early 1900s to about 1930 is when those were used for photography. And so those boxes that we have in our archive are they usually dont have any labeling on them. If theres a label on the box, it means it was important, that its a big case or a big person, a governor, a mayor perhaps. This one said mom and i didnt know who that was, and i opened up one of the first envelopes and held it up to the light. It was woman clutching a baby, her child, a child, in jail. I thought who is this . This is a shocking photo. A lot of times the photography at that time period was staged because of the technology of cameras, you cant move there would be motion blurs so everybody had to be a posed photo. This was definitely not posed and it was gut wrenching to look at. So i was curious, who is this person. Well, i looked through the box and it was all about this woman, and in 1924, did have the stamp of 1924 on the envelope. We dont have boxes full of women, its usually men. She had to be somebody important. So at that time we were in Tribune Tower where our archive was in the subbasement and five floors below Michigan Avenue and so its a trek to get down there, theres no wifi down there, its not like i go google who this person is. So i ran back up the stairs, got to the news room and put her name in, and i realized she was katherine balak. Or kitty mom. Wanted for murder in 1924. And the more i dug, she was a small character in the play chicago and i thought, wait a minute, i wonder if we have all the people who are all the women in the play chicago. So i started writing all of their names down theyre real live people. I didnt know the women in chicago were based on real people. So i had to go back down to the archives and found the rest of them. They were all there. Beulah, bella and four women on murderers row in 1924 in chicago. And i was pretty excited. [laughter] so i came back up to the news room and i got really excited and digitized the glassplate negatives and sat on it for two years. Like a good journalist does you liao leave it on your desk, you go back down to the mess of archives. If they tell your editor about it, can you have it for tomorrow so i sat on it for a little bit and you can say what happened next. Flash forward two years after, christmas pot luck at the Chicago Tribune news room and i dont know if you know this about reporters, but we love food, any type of food. So its an opportunity for us to get away from our computers and chat and so while were enjoying whatever goodies people brought in that day, marianne comes up to me and say, hey, i have a project i think we should work on together. I tend to work on maps and charts and im visual not as marianne is. And she opened up the archives, cockroaches. Rats. Cold, dirty, rats, not wellorganized. Its a Treasure Hunt and every time see goes there, she doesnt know where shes at. Once she told me, i had goosebumps, lets do this. We never knew it would turn into a book, we thought a photo gallery, maybe a couple of photos, couple of stories and it kept evolving and evolving and we realized we needed to add the context, what was chicago like then . Now since the book has come out, we realized, you know, everybody has come out of the spanish flu pandemic. You know, weve had the covid pandemic. People are going crazy in chicago at the time and we realized we needed ricks help. So, rick, you talk a little about chicago at the time. What was it like in 1924 here . How crazy was it . It was pretty crazy. It was a, you know, the proverbial the whole image of chicago in the 20s has gotten sort of bizarrely altered by movies and tv. What struck me about it, mary was the nature of newspapering in the 20s. This is a vibrant newspaper town, but also, and im so pleased to be up here with three female journalists because at the time a female journalist was one of the great oddities of all time because they did not and never were at the time accorded the kind of stature. They would be sent out to write stories about, oh, i heard from a beauty shop that theres a new kind of hairdo. Please go out and report that. And thats how intrigued so much about it. I knew the seed of the chicago, the play. Who was ms. Watkins, the reporter at the time. She is and youll got it from the book, one of the most intriguing figures in the history of chicago. This is a woman, among the many women i would like to have drinks with, this is a woman i would like to have drinks with. A woman in a news room was an incredible it would be the same as having, you know, a fulltime clown that people said, look at that, look at that woman. And it was not a womans business and thats one of the things, mary, that really intrigued me about it. It was a wild, raucous, raucous town. No more raucous than it is today, but really, a wild place and how this woman who was sent down to the jail to murderers row basically, my theory, sort of substantiated, she was sent down there to do cute features pieces because the woman housed there, they were doing each others nail polish and doing each others hair. Wouldnt this be a really nice, fun feature for the paper . And also, traditionally, before and after, women killing anybody was a real man bites dog story. And thats the other thing that appealed to me so much about getting involved and i didnt want to get involved on any kind of taxing level. I just thought it was a fascinating i just talked to these ladies about, this is all i kept saying, this is unbelievable. This is unbelievable. So, thats the thing, mary, that grabbed me. I feel that we buried the lead a little bit in that Maureen Watkins was a reporter at the time hired in 1924. She had no journalism experience. We have no idea, no records of why she was hired at the tribune. And so, she was sent to murderers row to write about the women that were there, these four women that we mentioned. And at the time, you know, they probably the men, they would not have sent a male reporter to do this. So, in 1924 chicago, youre looking at a time period, to get back to the landscape, that was after the 1919 end of world war i, soldiers coming home, race riots in chicago, prohibition started, women just got the right to vote. Jazz music, right . And these are all the things, the tumultuousness that was happening in that time period and i think really to have four women who had potentially murdered men, that was pretty shocking. The man bites dog kind of story. So, i think they sent Maureen Watkins down there to interview and we do have photos of these women playing cards together. Of course, these are posed photos so the photographer was allowed into the jail cell to take pictures of them, you know, posing and reading a newspaper together. Or you know, playing cards, a lot of them are playing cards which i guess they didnt have anything else to do. But she wrote about how they were doing beautification efforts in the jail and how one was bellva gartner, she had money so she was paying others to doer had laundry. And i wanted to ask, also the journalistic standards of the at the time were a little dubious. I mean, there were some things that were obviously made up and they didnt care as long as it made for a good story and the nastiness of some of the coverage of these women was just appalling, especially the woman who was an italian immigrant and you know, you get the sense that, you know, there was a lot of kind of free and easy story telling going on here. What did you think of maureen as a reporter . I mean, its just fascinating. So we were able to go through the tribunes archives, as far as the pages from that time period, which is fascinating because theres a byline there, the persons name who wrote the story. We cant say what the first story that Maureen Watkins wrote for us. We found about 90 of her stories. Was a wide range of stories. The funeral by leopold and lowe. And no reason why she was hired in the first place. And she had no journalism experience. She was cute. That should have gone far. Mary you were talking about the ethics at the time, were there ethics . And as far as we could tell she stayed at the tribune for eight or nine months. She went to yale university, the new school of drama, from her experience at the tribune and the first thing she wrote, chicago. And i would say that looking back at her writing. The type of writing at the time period, rick, you could probably speak to this its much more sensationalistic. I would use the word colorful, but thats just me. [laughter] all the women they had to describe what they were wearing so we would get the beulah, the prettiest woman to stand on murderers row. I forget what the headlines was. Maureen watkins calls her the most beautiful woman in cook county. It wasnt maureen, but another reporter from the tribune had described the immigrant woman on murderers rowe as a dumb, crouching, animallike peasant. The way that they treated immigrants, the way that some people treat them now, like theyre less than human. The difference in coverage from poor netta, who was certainly innocent than the most beautiful redhead who was most certainly guilty. I should say that beulah is the roxie hart character and velma gartner a velma kelly. Its hard, were up here, visual people and not pointing to a photo. The photos that were referring to are in the book. So beulah and bellva are the beulah and velma in the chicago, think got the press and they were in a financial situation in their lives they knew how to work the press at that time. I kind of think how theyre not like not that beyonce killed anybody, but the beyonces of today how to get out there potentially. They were written favorably. And sabella and kitty were not written favorably. Kitty was nicknamed tiger girl. One judge said she was the hardest Something Like she was very brash and, yeah, the most the fascinating thing about her, she was very young at the time. You could tell she had a really rough life up until then. She was about 19 years old when she was on trial. Very young. You could tell the prosecutor, a relative of our current governor, a pritzker, in that case he was partially the person who said hey, this is the hardest woman i have ever met, but theres a really fascinating story behind her and in the end, spoiler alert in case you havent read the book yet, he actually comes to her defense and tries to get her clemency granted. Yeah, i think that he realized that basically the way that she was written about and the way that she was portrayed during the trial really helped the 12 white men to convict her on the jury. So the same thing with sabella, the accounts at the newspaper wrote at the time are astounding. Like you said. Her knuckles dragging to the floor was one of them. Like apelike, its astonishing when we read those things. Think of listening to these, too, that any of you as a head of a Publishing Company would say, wow, a great idea for a book. What the process like for you had talked and said this is more than a story for the paper. What was that process like . You there were just multiple goosebump, inducing moments from the first opportunity from that pot luck around christmas time. We just digging and we have we just kept digging and with editors where reporters but where visual reporters and photo editors. We just have to thank our editors and the leadership at the paper. Every new thing wefo found out, every detail we just get gathering and gathering and gathering and realized even though people there were other books out there that had connected the Chicago Tribune articles and marine watkins to these women. We realized we had the full scope of these womens lives from the getting to it because all four came from other places, from other places whether overseas, two were from overseas, two were from other states so we are curious whatever happened to these women . Did they ever get to see chicago . Did they live long happy lives . What happened . The treasure trove we just had all of this content come all this material, photos news clippings all of the stuff and it seemed like a like a t condense it put into one place where the facts the artifacts could speak for themselves. We all know editors are not geniuses. Whos armed you have to twist . Who was at the finally said yeah, i think this might be a book . You know robin was director of photography at the time and she said sure you can do about. Because she is the boss ive ever had, besides todd of course. And a woman. Robin thought this has got to be a book. She was the champion for this. I dont think a lot of people realize what she did to pave the way for the book to happen, for sure spyware to ask, there are four distinct stories here and i wondered which stories would you the most of which story surprise you the most among these four women . Do have a favorite . Oh, my gosh i love Maureen Watkins. As rick said im just enthralled with what happened to this woman. In what happens when the most successful thing you ever work on in your life is basically the first play youit ever write, whe youre in college. How do you follow that up . So herte life was one that i was really interested in exploring and its tragic. Its reallyhe sad. Theres a lot of that we dont know even after doing all this research. One of the things in the book that all this note is that she and the play beat to broadway the most legendary theatrical take on chicago journalism with the thing called the front page. She beat that show to broadway. And yet, not revert all over the place but at least people know what the front page was in the front page defined that air of this woman just faded away. I think she frittered away by choice in some ways. I think her popularity when she went to continue working she probably have not told by trish. Cheap i didnt the same Work Opportunities after that but she did become a hermit and she went and hid in florida with her mother, right . I was able to go to jacksonville, florida, where she spent the last couple of decades of her life tickets fasting because we of course checked the Chicago Tribune like how come nobody knew about this . The Tribune Tower there was nothing in after Maureen Watkins. When we moved to one predigital building nothing in after Maureen Watkins. We have a list of famous people, famous people who came out of the tribune newsroom. Nothing about Maureen Watkins. And her obit was never published in the tribune either. She didnt even get an obit. In fact, the only notice of her death int jacksonville whee she lived out her last decades was a paid death notice that no major whatsoever of chicago. It . Why yeah id have to say my favorite though and i know i knew coreys answer because she loves and i think maureen is an enigma that will never know the answer to. And thats why were so enthralled with her. But i think out of the the women in the book, i tend to gravitate to kitty or sabella. I think kitty probably just because seeing first photo im getting goosebumps now seeing that first photo of her as a mother for a very, very young mother and being put in this position where she had immigrated here didnt have a very High Education fallen in with that got married super early had a child this man abused her she left. I just you know, theres so much with life that you feel like if there had been an in some way, it could have gone a different direction. And i think its that lost opportunity in the fact that once she was convicted. Spoiler alerts right once was convicted and she went to jail. She she worked hard to get an education to redeem herself and she applied clemency multiple times multiple times. And they and she didnt it because the the jail they were keeping watch of her she she spoke when she wasnt supposed to she gossiped with other people in her jail cell. She would get written up for it. So they were really on her the whole time. And so thats why they would deny her clemency. She just wanted to see her daughter, her daughter meant everything to her. And i just think about that sadness that she ended up dying in prison, you know, and just as pritzker was trying to get her freed and young, too, she was, what, 29, 30. Yeah. When she when she died prison so that so the child was little and the whole reason she was caught was because she went back to try to see her baby. Thats exactly right. Yeah. She went on the run. She was on the lam and she could have disappeared forever. But because of her daughter, like mary said, she came back. And not to you know, corey and i talk about this a lot. You know, theres four women on murderess row, four potentially killing people, and two of them probably didnt do it and two of them most likely did it right and got away with it and got away with it kitty and sabella are the two that we really feel did not have did not murder. And kitty was with the wrong crowd and. She was with a man who had already murdered and, been two to prison for one person, and he didnt want to go back. Yeah. So he blamed her. It was a hideous gun. It was gun. She did it, you know. And so i guess that feels so lost her her. You know, i just feel like the real behind the the the plague character is a really sad one for me and the sabella character has a happier story even though she the character on whom she was based in the play is the is the woman who who dies in the play but in the real story something happier happens. So what happens . Isabella totally. Its interesting because she shes convicted. She gets whole new group of support. Italianamericans, prominent italians, americans, female italianamerican attorneys who who saw what happened. And actually, a lot of people came to her defense and said shes, a mother, you have no evidence there was no body. She convicted of murder by hearsay and her sons were arguments with that it was her husband and her son. He was a nasty piece of work. Frank nitti, by all accounts, and he definitely had it coming right . Yeah. And he had been in an argument with his son and that was the last person he was seen with. And the sons really ratted her out. We should that sabella was the first woman to be convicted to hang in illinois right. Right of court was they chose they chose right. Yeah yeah. And she didnt speak english so they didnt have a translator the trial so she needed to know so its a really but her story ends up much better. Lets tell corey oh gosh so all of these wonderful people come to her defense and they took cues from belva and beulah so the roxanne velma characters i mean the newspapers, the social media of the day, if you could get your photo in the paper, get your headline people would would they would totally to your defense and so sabella has people who work with her to make look more attractive refine her character to make her look attractive the jury and her daughters to to bring her daughters front and center the she we actually had in archive a writing sample of of of her own where to prove that she had learned english only to speak english, but also write it. Yeah. So she, she had to prove that she could, you know, be the way that we would like her to, you know, i guess we the proverbial we. But she ends up not i mean, they reverse well, it goes all the way to the Supreme Court and they reverse the and so she up moving out to california lives the rest of her life i think into her eighties maybe i think out of these four women its probably best the best the best. Yes. After living through terrible years. Yeah. So kind of a actually that that that is best outcome for any of the five women. If you think of it, probably the worst. I thought for justice though was probably buehrle is. Can you talk a little bit about what happened with with beautiful bila . So is marianne. At the time, juries were 12 white men and is mentioned beulah, an auburn haired blue. She was gorgeous. Yeah, beauty and has the photos to prove it. Whats the one where shes sitting like this, shes sitting dont shes shes doe eyed. Shes looking up at the camera the photographer definitely taking a sympathetic photo her and its hard to resist even as a reader, youre like, my goodness, i want to keep looking at this picture for a shes this really beautiful she was gorgeous and. So i think she knew how to work it she knew she had been married multiple times before like this knew what she was doing in front of a camera so and i think that was enough to persuade the jury even she was probably guilty. What about her fake pregnancy . Well the other thing we should have mentioned even earlier is that what watkins wrote was mostly true. Whats in the play . The muse. What started out as a play, a musical, the movies now of chicago. Its true. The pregnancy rumor, totally true. And she was smart to come up with this idea because knew court was going to be out for the summer. They were taking a summer recess. She knew if she werent tried before the summer, shed be sitting in jail and would have a very difficult time for a variety of reasons that we go into the book. She knew she had get that trial before the summer break and surprise, surprise pregnancy and she had charismatic irish attorney who knew how to work the presses. She she did which we dont know if her. Oh what is it obrien. I forget his name w. W. Obrien are you billy flynn character in chicago thats our guests. Who . The billy flynn is based off of totally . Totally. It just makes sense. It sense that they would cash that she hash this idea out they would out a plan to Work Together and it totally worked. And we have the of her after shes shes acquitted of these charges posing with the 12 white men in the jury. Now its pretty shocking but i like the initial coverage of her of murder, too, because, you know, story is is that, you know, her husband is after work. Right. And so shes got a guy and some one of them goes for the gun, know the story keeps changing. It does in the play chicago, you know know she who went for the gun and well yes she got first. So she she shoots the and shes listening to a jazz recording on the phonograph hulu hulu lulu she goes goes over and over again the victrola and thats and thats what put in the lead of the story that that you know shes listening to jazz number and shes wondering what do with the body. Yeah and did she sat there for a while before she called the cops and called was she called her husband. Theres a man that broke in you. Know theyre trying to rape me. Yeah, thats the story. Changed a lot. So feel is definitely an interesting character. And the husband at first did try to say he the one who shot the intruder you know, so its like, oh, my gosh, all of this. And i didnt know anything about the musical, any of the background coming into this project. So its been faceted, waiting now to go see the musical which next year this upcoming is going to be 20 years since the movie an oscar for best picture. And i think theres a coming in january coming town through broadway in chicago so its really fascinating you read the book and get all these to sit and watch it because most of it is true what actually happened somebody and if you see the newspaper from Maureen Watkins, what wrote its almost word for word in the play that she wrote and then into the you know, the musical so it is nothing really changed there one of the hallmarks of the book not so much my addition it but theyre wonderful pieces by Michael Phillips and chris jones detailing that too. Whose idea was that how to add that come to be. Well i think we did corey and i talked about how we felt like we could speak to you know, i could do the visuals speak to how we all the content and and corey and i could talk about the people but we really needed the experts to get in there and talk about complexities of the plays and the musicals and how the iterations came about and how that worked with Maureen Watkins. And so, you know, its lucky we work with such fabulous experts, especially rick here, who knew the history of chicago, knew what was going on in the 1920s in chicago, which exactly why we needed you to help with the introduction like it funny because at the tribune were used to on projects, you know from, different departments. And so its it was just so fabulous to hey rick, do you have time to work on an introduction to this book . We dont much about what was happening in chicago in the 1920s. We know a lot about these women now, but we really need you to set the scene. And so thats, i think michael and chris were able to bring that expertise to and i and Heidi Stevens to. Heidi stevens, too, who we love and. I will say that i thought it was interesting, the introduction and such an important thing that added about the newspaper landscape at the time, about the different know it wasnt just a two or even three newspaper town. I dont even know how many newspapers . 24, maybe eight. Yeah. I mean, there were the Foreign Language papers and then were city news to kind of pick up the, the, the chicago american i dont know if they were around yet chicago herald daily news im thinking eight. In addition, neighborhood papers and ethnic papers. Yeah, it was a it was big news. And so people were really fighting for attention, you know, we didnt have television when your radio was just kind of starting out. And so you had to, you know, get people, you know, as sensationalist you could possibly get it even if you had to make things up. And if you think about that too, that really explains why. You know, back then the reporters and photographers were right there, the scene. So, you know, we never be allowed into jail at this point so that we could do a one on one interview with know Belva Gardner or any of the characters that are people in this in this in this book. I feel like thats so shocking to me now to see photos of these women sitting jail you know a portrait of them or the writings that maureen where she was just asking them questions. They were just talking freely. No lawyers around, no nothing. And i at that time, that was their way of getting their exclusive and and writing that nobody else had. And we were given rein. I mean, the journalists at the time were given free rein for that. One of the one woman we havent talked as much, belva, whos in the cover of the book, she considered how did she get off . Well, so the quick story about belva is that, well, actually, you tell this so much than i do about her. Well, i dont know about that. But the cliff notes version of belva is she was married to a man who was was german and moved to the United States and created a successful scientific instrument company. So obviously money not an issue. Theres an interesting story about how they able to get married, but they had crazy relationship, you know, off on off. And so one night she decides her husband buys a new car and she starts to take up with the guy who delivered the car, her apartment. And we actually this crazy photo in our archive because they would go out drinking together. Like mary ann said, its prohibition. Its not legal. They go out drinking together and then drive home and night. Two Police Officers come across this in a car having an argument it and they kind walk by and they hear gunshot. And by the time they get back, belva is gone. She booked it for her apartment. And theres a man behind the Steering Wheel who had been shot in the head. And we actually have this photo in our archives pretty to show like this actually happened. This is another thats odd because you dont see those kind of our sensibilities now so delicate compared to they were in the 1920s for sure absolute mary i mean the yeah and of course we try to be you know we try to make it so its, so transparent of what exactly happened. But back in the day. No thats what wanted to have in the paper probably sold papers you to have that in the paper. So i can imagine. Yeah. That that when cops showed up you know belva in her apartment and she says, well im too drunk, i dont know what happened. That was her defense. That was the whole defense i was drunk. I dont know what happened. She said never mix gin and men. Thats the worst thing. So she goes to trial and her, you know, shes stylish the way that maureen and everybody wrote about that she had the best clothes. Super stylish. Shes refined. She how to handle herself so they really wrote favorably about her but she was she had the money you know she had her husband her exhusband at the time, but he still was backing her with money and so she goes to trial and they cant cant convict her, you know. So i love how in the trial coverage they you know intricately describe every single shes wearing and today shes a shes shes a hat that matches eyes and its got black and she has black on her suit with with bell sleeves and like what, you know, how do they even know all these details of of fashion . I will, i will say that those details of fashion are just a quick aside is that the glass plate negatives that we have that these all came from are in envelopes that have almost no information on them. I dont say, you know, belva 1924 and then i see the photos and i have to go back to the news clippings to find when, when was, you know, use any calendar hours that are maybe behind in the photos to, figure out what days things were happening. But those descriptions of those clothing really helped me out because i was able to find the photo of the day that she was freed because of bell shaped sleeve and the the notching that they described everything. And i said, oh, thats her outfit, right . Yeah. So here she is. So it okay that they did that for me at least . Yeah, i know. And then the hat with the cascade yes. Yes and all that stuff and, you know, and again, you know, she probably did it. Oh most likely definitely. Probably had it coming. Definitely oh well and he was married at the time had a child so. Yeah. It is interesting to me to these women, you know, belva and beulah specifically, who were definitely not to take it back to a serious note, but in time period, its almost like they were they were pushing against the cultural norms for women at that time they were going out, they were married. They were going out and around with other men, they were drinking during prohibition. Know it like they were really, really risk takers. If thats the way to it. You know, at a time when i think more women were pushing up against the societal for them. I wonder how much though has it really changed because you still see these kinds of sensationalist trials for women especially if theyre attractive women and when we saw this back in florida about ten years ago with a woman accused killing her child and she was quite attractive and it got an press and well, this is she got off. Yeah this something corey and i talk a lot about about as we were going through the news clippings and the photos and putting everything together, how all seems so relevant to now how you could see this stuff happening today and people are so adept at using social media to control their image. Now that it just it doesnt seem like very much this in some ways. No. And also the way that, you know, you know, women and, you know, women who were not in the group are treated a little bit as a little bit as know, you know, interesting artifacts as opposed to, you know, actual people with problems. And im actually, you know, almost seeing more, you know, its almost like were returning to the to the 1920s in this way in know the, you know, kind of a focus on sensational and a focus and and of that kind of dehumanization. Rick, what do you what do you you know, do you think weve learned anything since the 1920s or or are we going. No. There was a grand tradition as all know, that that to convict woman of the crime of murder because first of all because it was so such an unusual man bites dog kind of story that it was truly possible to and again an all male. Who would have you know who were going home to wives thinking well i havent been such a good husband. I wonder if my wife might kill me. The answer the answer would be their verdict. Well, no, that cant happen. Cant happen. I think thats still true. You know, i think its still and i think social media has just screwed things up beyond beyond all reason. Yes. You know, the other thing that i noticed in the book, the same as today, is chicago is regarded as the murder capital of the nation and how it was regarded and the murder capital of the world. And there was a certain of, you know, you know, celebration of that almost, you know, by the media at the time, there was there was actually a graphic that would run almost daily in the paper back, then a handdrawn graphic car crashes you know all these different ways to die in. The city of chicago keeping tabs on and its crazy because im in charge of our homicide so every monday im updating that our website and keeping tabs on where these things happening. And youre right, mary there are especially politicians like to portray our city as dangerous and awful. And, you know, i have relatives. California, how can you live there, you know, and its like, no, we live here. Its not like that. Its portrayed that way by people who outside of this city and, by and by the media, though theres no question, absolutely no question about fear and blood cell, no more. So i think, on tv than in print these days, print is shrinking, but murder and blood, fear so fear absolutely. Yeah. And sensationalism and that it and then so it ended in a way that there hasnt really been anything thats changed much. One hopes that what the difference is is that women have opportunities than they did than. I think that i agree with you, corey, that there is a tragedy about storey. And i think she had the reason she left the tribune was not because anyone was forcing her out because she was overwhelmed by the amount of bloodshed that she had to cover you know, she had a great sensitivity to it and she had to leave. And i think that if shed been around in a different time. She might have, you know, ended up being in management. She might have ended up writing more plays, but yeah, she had those if she were management, then shed blower brains out there was a quote that that they published, i think in a about her that said it got to the so that she wished for murder she prayed she prayed for murders right. Yeah so that she could write about them and then she realized she had to get out, you know. So she was in too deep and it is its hard. I think thats fascinating because. We have crime reporters who, you know, overnight who are covering these things every single day. And the emotional toll that takes, i mean, thats Something Else that he hasnt changed from back then. Its like you you want to be able to people the story. But at the same time what it do to your psyche, you know thats just youre covering it day and day out. Its fascinating. I will say that talking about maureen a little bit, though, is she did leave to go back her playwriting comfort zone and then did she do she wrote about crime in chicago. So i that it was something that was a comfortable comfort all a subject matter for her something that she did know but i think that the question is always did she come to chicago to, work at the newspapers so that she could get to write for a play, or did it come did it go the reverse order now colleague chris jones, who we mentioned earlier, writes a section in the book about chicago, has developed the years his evolve through the years. His theory is, yes, his theory is yes. She came here specifically. She knew what was happening in chicago and she was going to do whatever it took to get to a newspaper to write. Now i was able to find evidence, the professor that she followed to yale of drama some another reporter asked a similar question in his papers at yale. He says, no, this was not our idea. She didnt come up with some to move to chicago to do this. But it does make you wonder. I mean, she was a playwright by training she was not a reporter by training and to go from playwright to reporter back to playwright, first thing she wrote was chicago the evidence is there. Its possible didnt skip a beat, though. She went back and she wrote this right away and she headed up. I dont know what was the difference in time. Two years. She yes. In 1926 it premiers so yeah pretty quick pretty quick. How did it but it kind of got lost for a while so how did it become a musical. Okay this fascinating because from what i could tell in our research and we go through the process in the book, people were clamoring for this people wanted to purchase the rights chicago to turn it into a musical gwen verdin who was with bob fosse, shes quoted throughout decades saying, i am going to buy this, i have an agreement. Maureen watkins, who nobody had heard from for decades because she was living in jacksonville, florida. Nobody knew she was there. Gwen vernon said, i have an agreement with her that when she dies, im going to produce this play and im going to star in it. But we are able, through Maureen Watkins estate records in Jacksonville Florida to prove that that was not the case we dont know why were not sure why she never sold the rights why the rights werent sold until after her death, when a bank was placed in charge of the estate because she had no heirs, she never she never had children. There were no direct heirs to this. So a bank was put in charge of it and they said, sure, well sell the rights. So that was a goosebumps moment for, me going through this pile upon pile of estate records and finding that 25,000 given to the producers at initial chicago musical for it to premiere on broadway within two years and it did thats how it finally came about so were not sure why the rights werent sold during maureens lifetime. Theres lot of theories about that, though. A lot people have speculated that she was not happy that it got such popularity and about the topic of crime and that it was glorifying the crime in some ways and she didnt want it to further so and who knows if thats true because she she is the enigma we dont know a ton about her we can only things from the records that we were able to find but it is potentially you know, her father was a minister, correct . Yeah. She was always religious. I mean, she was an only child. She was able to go and get to continue her education. Like we said, never married, never had children. So it seems like religion was always the background in her life. So there are some people who she suddenly found god decided she was too embarrassed about what she had done. I dont know if thats true. I think she was always, you know, a religious person. And in the estate records, we she donated to religious institutions after she died. But yeah, i dont think we have enough to to that conclusion. But she did buck the at that time period, you know 1920 for a Woman Working talk about that you know and then coming the tribune when women playwrights do i mean its a whole realm she was she just broke through every conceivable barrier that would be put up against women at the time well and she never married thats right so she didnt marry no children nothing so i mean at that time period was going against all the societal of what a woman was supposed to do correctly, you know, and you know. And that gave her an extra insight into these women who were who outsiders, who were, you know, you know pariahs of society to be able to trade understand them. Corey said you hadnt heard you hadnt seen the musical before . Yeah, i. Well, you think i loved it ever since because no, i really believe knowing the true story and seeing how maureen took these, like mary ann said from her very own and put them into the the play, which became the musical i just love that. I love knowing that history. Yeah. I feel like you got to see it in the order. Everybody should have, you know, the real stories, the real women and then the play. Whereas the rest of us all saw the plays and movies and musicals and then then went back and found the real stories. But thats kind of neat. So i have to ask you, you know, now that were out the Tribune Tower and, you know, the rats have been cleaned up and its now, you know, 1 million condos or whatever it is, 1. 7 million. Is that the highest one . Well, they started at 700,000. I went in there a couple of weeks ago to find an baseball. They started at 700,000. And now the price is a million. And one was recently sold for 8. 8. Oh, wow so and so, you know, theyre telling us time but i have to i have to ask you did you find anything else there . Can you make another book out of the i used glass. Its so funny because in the couple we should mention our book came out right before the pandemic. So thank you so much for. Your interest in this even a few years later. So people ask all the time. Its a timeless book. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. Thanks for selling it. Right . Right. Oh, and told that theres time for a little bit of time for questions. The next panels. Anyone have any questions . Our illustrious panel. Just wondering what happened to that baby . Im glad you asked. We actually ran a photo there was at a wire photo of her that ran a picture of her with a dog. She a long life from, all accounts. She looked a lot like. Her grandmother, who took care of her after her mother was sent to prison tootsie. That was her name. Tootsie is what it well, that was her nickname. Tootsie. But as far as we can tell, she lived. She continued to live a long life in. Chicago. But as far as can tell, we never interviewed her at the tribune either. So she didnt want to, you know, elaborate on her mothers past. Maybe she didnt want to revisit it during her lifetime. So that thats kind of frustrating to to see you when there arent follow ups because we depend so heavily on our archives so to not see that it that led to believe that maybe she wanted to be left alone and just as a thought isabellas children and grandchildren are aware of her history. They are now they are now. Yes. So thats kind of neat. Now that youve done this spectacular, the book, how does it high rate, long read . How does it feel man has an amazing book for sale out there by mike madigan. I was going to give a little, you know, something for them to talk about here and i think this is spectacular book and id to know how it feels now that youve your account there that it really you know gotten that behind you how do you feel just having that completed. Well i think its like birthing a baby you know its a lot of a big struggle while youre in it and you think its never going to end and then of a sudden you have this beautiful thing and you, you know, think, wow, we did that. Thats pretty cool. You know, it it is a couple of years passed since weve made it since it came out. Right. It literally came out february. February, right. March. I think it was. So a lot of what weve been able to do to, show it to the world has been stunted by that. So now its starting to real again. You know, now that things are opening up and thats been wonderful. But oh, you can buy it anywhere anywhere. Books are sold is what they always tell us to, but its part of publishing. So you can get on the tribune store, you can get it on amazon, if thats okay with you but your local bookstore, local bookstores are the always the way to go for us. Were going to say how, how you feel about it. I just think this has given us the opportunity to pursue more projects based in our archives. The chicago turned 175 years this year and, so rick wrote a fantastic based on that. And believe me, no one wants to buy a book of 175 years of the truth they do do it was a fantastic series and i adore with these two and whenever i get the chance to mary you know one months a book about no one no one died and like you know unless i go on some kind of murder rampage at whatever the new tribune becomes. Ill think about it too believe. Me we can say a little more about the cultural norms for women at the time. You kenya civil more about the cultural norms for women atre te time . Here with these women kind of breaking out having affairs and drinking, whatever theyre doing. Like early women laborers. Come outh of such repression for women. I think that was probably onb of the things that really interested me in doing this project was thinking of the landscape of chicago and women at that time. Womenn were supposed to get married, have children. They didnt have many rights but the womens liberation movement, the suffrage meant was happening. They had just gotten the right to vote 20s, 21 debating what illinois and the rest of the u. S. Here but i think that what i see from the women, the real women of chicago, the play, is that almost a desperation it feels like. Almost they did know how to move forward but he wanted more, you know . May be a clunky way of getting more butin i think women were pushing the boundaries, but at that time the skirts were getting shorter. You think of the early 1900s, Womens Clothing which usually indicative of what is going on in their freedom, right . So no corsets. Those of internet. Yet the jazz lose clothings another little more free. They are cutting their hair short which is also a sign the long hair was a sign of judy and women were cutting it off, you know . There was this throwing it all outi