Social history at the Free University of amsterdam. He is the author of the making of a periphery and the sugar plantation in india and indonesia. He is joined in conversation tonight sharmila sen the editorial and director of special initiative at Harvard University press. She was formerly a faculty member of the Harvard English Department and is the author the Award Winning . Not quite. Not losing and finding race in america tonight. Elizabeth asma is presenting his new book, the world of sugar how the sweet stuff transformed our politics, health and, environment over 2000 years. This book, a definitive 2500 year history of sugar and its human costs, which author sven beckert says explores something as mundane as sugar came to play a crucial role in making of the world we inhabit today. Attentive to local specificity as much to earth, spanning connections to culture and capital, power and poverty. This book is global history at its best. Were so pleased to host this event here at Harvard Bookstore tonight. Pleased me in welcoming elba bosma sharmila sen. Turner. I dont think this is on. Thank you. And its wonderful to be back and. Harvard bookstore again after all those years during the pandemic when we had to have the virtual events. So this is to say we dont take these kinds of events lightly because we really have missed these kinds of connections and these inperson events. And thanks to all of you today for joining us to talk about this book, which is about be released. So this is kind of think of it, this is a sneak peek at elba was definitive history of a commodity that we all have in our kitchens. Im going to kind of keep this fairly conversational today elba and i have been about this book for the last two years. Im going to maybe take us through little bit of, you know, remembering the story, what got on this topic. And then im going to leave a good amount of time, actually, for conversation because its very nice to see you all in person. And i know that youve, you know, everybody has made time in their busy wednesday to come here we would to kind of make this a collaborative conversational hour. With that, ill just get us started by telling you that the moment i heard about this book and elba, youll remember this, this was probably almost two years ago now. I remem byrd and maybe some of you in this room know that book thats. Sidney mintz, classic sweetness and. Its a book that i had read the early 1990s, and i still have that dog eared copy. Sidney mintz makes an appearance in your own book and and as as i still love that and its a classic of on its own right i knew this was time for an update of sweetness and power were to have a 21st century new update this was the book which would take us far beyond the Atlantic World, far beyond the kind, you know, the 500 years or so that mints had covered and and would also address issues such as, you know, the environmental consequences of sugar, of cultivation. So it was very exciting. But thats my story. Elba when i first, you know, we were introduced each other by a mutual friend and i thought, oh my god, you know, finally i get to publish an update of. My favorite classic mints book, whats your story . I love hearing sort of how authors get idea for embarking on a new subject. Yeah. In fact, it was also thanks to city mints. I was working on java, i think, in the late 1990s and i came across sugar because i was working on duration population of of java they were involved in sugar production and java in the late 19th and early 20th century was the second largest sugar exporter after cuba. So what was more logical than trying to to compare the experience of java and the caribbean region. And while doing that, i was organizing it with a colleague was also work on java. We thought, well thats in 5 to 10 admins to amsterdam and we the company. This invitation was a good cuisine because sydney is also a gastronomic anthropologist and he came to amsterdam and we had a wonderful very small workshop and that was the start for me to think about how to write about sugar and said, vince, explain to us. Thats to study the the, the of the Global Economy and days we would say the emergence of global capitalism. Sugar wasnt excellent entrance and. The sugar is a way to see how Global Connections evolved. And you could also say that sugar, the 19th century was what oil would be is a 20th century. So to understand how the world became connected to sugar is an excellent commodity to to start with. So that was i started as a comparison between asia and and the caribbean region brazil and louisiana so between asia and and and latin america and then of course i had to take yes but also other sugars have also beet sugar and. Gradually i discovered that not all sugar was Industrial Sugar that also sugar that was produced in india for since time immemorial and never reached a factory or an industry was was just peasant sugar was a cut of raw sugar which still exists today and still very popular india. So different kinds of sugar which competed for consumers and i think made a very interesting and i think i for a also and a exciting story to to read about. Oh youre right that there are of course of all kinds of that has existed in 2500 years of the history of cultivating sugar everything quite reached mass market. I think you were referring to gourd or jaggery right. Which is that that kind of sugar that has existed in india, i grew up eating that im from india. I also think i was attracted to this book because im from exactly a part of india where the earliest historical, recorded, refined sugar refineries existed. Its also my excuse for saying, why have such a sweet tooth . Despite having read this book and i know all about how bad this is, but you know, think 2500 years. Its in my blood now. Take us back a little bit to sugar in asia because i think a lot us in this country if know a little bit about sugar we know course sugar in the new world sugar from the caribbean plantations and so forth. And well get to in a second. But lets begin at the beginning. And, you know how people went about creating this thing of romans know of sugar. The greeks when they came with alexander you know they didnt know sugar they call it a gas the knees called sugar cane reeds bearing honey because honey was a sweetener. Yeah. So asian sugar, is it . Well, i think it to notice thats until 1870s. 1880s. Most of the sugar this world was produced in asia and not in the atlantic realm. So thats something which few people. But its very important. So for many, for most of time where sugar was, it was produced in india and in china. So theres a two largest Sugar Producers in the world. And in india, it started first crystallized sugar. We do not exactly know, but it must have about 2000 years ago that people discovered how to refined sugar if you boil sugar or sugar sirup from from cane, you dont sugar, you get a kind of thick sugary mass. But theres not sure, not crystalline sugar. We know table so you have to add alkaloids you have to add salt some some lime and you have to know how to boil this the sirup into sugar and this is a process which people. About 2000 1500 years ago and its spread from india first to china and to to persia and then later on it came and egypt and so it traveled through the mediterranean, eventually ended up in the atlantic realm. Then we talk about the 16th century. So theres a long history. Its a long history of a very complicated process to make sugar during this period, this early period, lets say, for the first 1500 years, if you will, of sugars, existence in human history. What what did it play, you know, on the table or in someones home or just in diet . Yeah. Well it came not in the homes of ordinary people either. Sugar im talking about now. It was a part of the love of the traditions, rituals, of course, of of of amia, of of colleagues. It was used, for example, make sculptures. It was sculpturing material. So when you came the courts for the mogul india or did the emperor of china or the caliph of back of of or of cairo. These people made had their cooks who made beautiful sculptures of sugar so there was one one um destiny of refined sugar. The other one was medicinal because people discovered that if you had for example, diarrhea, people were dehydrate. If they were given some water with, sugar, which was dissolved into water, people could be kept alive. It was medicinal potency, which is still has today, by the way. But it was also philosophically important and because galvanic medicine, which has talked about the four humors of the human body, which had to be in a kind of equilibrium, sugar in the clinic medicine played, a very important role. And in medicine was spread from rome to uh to to beijing. So it was throughout eurasia. So these two factors were these two factors made sugar popular in these days though it was very difficult to to get because it was so expensive in these days to. So i guess now the obvious question is and this is how i remember once we were having a conversation and zoom this was during the period of the lockdown and you were telling me about looking around in your kitchen and even did this exercise in my kitchen and trying to find how much sugar there was know not just in the in the sugar, but just in everything. Right. That we were talking about, say, the modern american diet. But perhaps its you know, there are some global versions of this up in the netherlands for instance where you are, you said, you know, theres a lot of in food. How do we go from something being this very luxury item because it sounds like thats what it was to it become, you know, completely ubiquitous. Yeah. Well, the short answer is, the Industrial Revolution, as soon as people how to process cane in the Industrial Way and to to make the refining process also industrial process it sure could become much much cheaper than it was until lets say 1800. So after 1800s, after 32, 1840s, uh, the whole process of sugar making became industrialized and. So huge quantities of, of relatively refined sugar became on the market at the same time. And this already whats said mills has pointed that there was a proletariat the urban proletariat became larger and larger and they were they will malnourished and to keep their energy a certain level which was necessary to keep them working in the factories. They had their cups of tea in the morning with a bit of sugar. So thats how sugar became consumption. Good for the for the masses so to speak. And over time. Um, the sugar industry grew, became important, became, uh, also politically more powerful, uh, with europe and united uh, first in europe, later on the United States, we had to be sugar industry. Um, over the course the 19th century in industrial as well it overproduction of of sugar emerged at the start that the market do its work and eliminate part of the sugar governments start to these industries. It to encourage people to consume sugar. For example they put the arms sugar in the rations of soldiers. Um sugar was prescribed as a kind of energy giver. Um, can these were considered to be food in these days. And then we, of course we the beverage industry, the cocacola and then and and the with lots of sugar. But i think two things Industrial Revolution. Thats one thing the soda the idea theres the supply side the other side the demand side that sugar was considered to be an energy give a very Efficient Energy give to people so the Industrial Revolution. I mean in some i think what you say this book and which youre right even vincent had pointed this out is both creating its making this kind of supply of sugar in fact an oversupply possible but then because of the new proletariat right i mean i will never forget this as a means thing that you would remember to write that that idea of at the cup of afternoon cup of tea or morning very sweet cup of tea of the British Working class and the late 19th century with those sweet or what we call cookies in america and how much calories it produced, its kind of adding cheap calories and often also as women are joining the workforce. So a certain kind of change diets happen. But i think youre also saying that its not just all natural, right . Well, obviously, youre a historian so you you push us against naturalizing things you historicity said so that there is also a demand being created right. And are these Government Forces are these private enterprise . Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the powerful sugar families, the sugar. Yeah. So suddenly sugar is considered a food. Its added as army rations and on and so forth. Yeah well that the interesting thing of sugar is it is both agriculture your products as well as Industrial Products and the agriculture side, particularly beet sugar industry. Um, contains hundreds of thousands of farmers who are involved in producing sugar. So thats a very potent political constituency, politically speaking. On the other, there are the refiners and they are highly concentrated. So they are usually working in cartels. And it was the case of the United States example by the late 19th century we had, the socalled sugar trust, it was known as the sugar trust. Publicly, it was harris who has the figurehead was henry hill. Half of myra was a wellknown sugar refiner in new york, and this group was very, very powerful. And they were capable of convincing the government of the United States to impose tariff structures to keep sugar from germany, for example, out of the United States. So there has always been a strong interaction between political because there were constituencies voters, farmers were voters on the one hand, and a very powerful and highly concentrated refining industry. It was the case in the United States, it was a case of germany, was the case in england. So the United States is no exception to the to the rule that respect a certain sugar. Lets lets turn a little from the consumers of sugar those who made it different processes right from cutting cane to working in refineries sugar one of the ways in which certainly the 19th century as we were talking comes to becomes cheap and it sweetens the three bitter beverages colonialism you could say, which is tea, coffee and chocolate and if you think about it, none of those beverages in their point of or culture of origin were drunk, sweetened originally. Tea, coffee chocolate were not originally drunk sweetened. But it is part of this kind of, you know, modern european imperial and this kind of sugar emerging as a global commodity and a cheap one where it starts sweetening. Lets move to the Atlantic World and about the role of sugar and the atlantic slave trade and perhaps i can get you to say a few things. Also, sugars role in abolish and abolition movement. Yeah i think very important to realize is that when we talk about the 12 and a half Million People made the Middle Passage that probably thirds of them ended up at sugar plantations and conditions were terrible cane fields were really killing fields. So the starvation mortality in the cane fields was much higher example than the cotton fields or in the tobacco fields. So this is very important to realize. So in the end, one can say there were about 8 Million People who ended up at sugar plantations to work their their. There was a lot of resistance i think this was also very important to realize the resistance was there from the very beginning, the early 16th century to the very end. Lets say the baptist rebellion, 25, 25th of december, 1831. Was it which convinces some parliamentary in and in england that stay free should be abolished. It should not be prolonged. So that led to the abolition of itself within the british in 1834. But there was protest in britain itself. There are also people who said, and particularly the quakers, we were a very important factor in this abolitionist. There were english wives, said, we dont want to consume sugar. That dripping with blood. And they said, well, as alternative we can consume sugar from india its there and england just colonize india. So there was plenty supply from this region and. They said, well, lets export cotton to india. And they produced sugar for us. Nice deal. Okay. Was the result, of course, was the destruction of part of the indian cotton, the textile industry. But the is indeed thats that there was a glimmer hope in this very grim story and the glimmer of hope was, first of all, the resistance by, those who were who to work at the plantations is one thing. And the other thing is people said, well, this is absolutely immoral whats going on here. So the have a role to think. But this might be also an example these days that people can and can say, okay, this is no longer acceptable. Us oh, yes, one thing and is of course that in the early 19th century and in the 1820s and there was a movement that was led by women is to my knowledge, the first Fair Trade Movement in the world. So thats also the of sugar. Im going to ask one more question and then i had kind of made promise to myself, to you, that i wanted to have at least half of this time allotted to us for here. So im going to allow myself one question and then lets open it up. Okay. Which i want to talk about the environment of because sugar like many other crops that are, you know, sugar cultivation led to basically, you know, massive transportation of flora and fauna. And of course, people across continents. Can we talk a little bit about and you can pick any area or any time period about the kind of the ramifications of sugar cultivation, particularly, lets say from the 19th century onwards, you know, ramping up and perhaps also touch on beet sugar and europe. Yeah. First of all, sugar. Well, back exhaust the soil. Thats thats one thing we have to to to acknowledge until the early 19th century after ten or 15 years, the soil was exhausted and sugar production moved to another island or another area that what happened so for example in the west indies we see that sugars hopping from one island to another island over. The course of the 19th century, people found ways to add fertilizer to the to sugar and production to the cane fields. So things improved, but still, its very difficult to to to decrease the amount of land needed to grow cane or to grow beet. So its its a lot of land is covered, producing sugar and perhaps too much land covered by producing sugar and sugar cane and sugar beet. So we see nowadays thats huge last part of world are now covered by cane and by beet fields particularly by cane fields in latin america for example, where they encroach the rainforest and is not for for human consumption, but today, much of it is used for ethanol because theres an overproduction of sugar in the world. So Sugar Producers now switch to ethanol and with all kinds of old deteriorated, the dilatory, deleterious effects on on the on the environment so in order to do to stop this process reducing sugar consumption is one thing so consuming. 40 to 60 kilograms sugar per capita in the in the high income and middle Income Countries whereas the World Health Organization has put a limit. Guideline for a limit of 20 kilos. So we are well beyond that. So if we reduce our consumption, we would be good for our bodies. It will also be good for the environment, i think. And we of course, we need to stop with producing ethanol for fuel because thats not the way to to well, to to engage with Energy Transition is absolutely necessary. So, yeah, the World Health Organization guideline for per capita consumption and it should be kept in mind. I mean, thats saying the maximal but sugar this is what we were talking about on the way over unlike salt, which is another, you know, commodity that as you all know, has a of. But we need salt to be alive. We need some salt right. But sugar dont need any sugar at right. So but yeah. So so its its something thats totally not necessary our bodies. But is everywhere thats quite something. Yeah. Well, for for most of our history of human history, people not consume sugar a bit of honey or something of glutinous rice, Something Like that, but not sugar. So we dont need it. Its nice, but we dont need it it. Well. Well, i will certainly say while thats very true. What that last statement is not true of is your book. We do need your book because thats know its its such a tremendous such a tremendously important commodity and not sort of in our own times too. I learned a lot about that this very long history that covers at least two millennia. I to open this up now to the audience some of you have come in please feel free to come and sit in these empty chairs. It makes if youre in the back, please come. Dont be shy and. I think therell be a mic thatll be passed and i will. Elba as i said, unless people get rough with you and start asking you a lot of like tough sugar questions, im going to let him handle this at point. Somebody please ask, this man, a question about whats with the dutch and their waffles and that sugar. So i open it up to the audience audience. Yeah well by way. Great. Well, thank you. And im sure its a fascinating book. Its just kind because he has also done the back for this i read seven when becketts about you know the empire of got it and you know this is very interesting to have another commodity added to it just two things. Well is a question the second one was came up what you were talking about earlier. So the question really is can you a bit about the political role of sugar . Of course, we know a bit about, you know, how it was politically important in the west indies, but in the rest of the world, did it play kind an important political role, especially in the 19th or the 20th centuries . And the other thing that wanted to ask was you mentioned that the sugar plantations killed more slaves than the tobacco and the cotton ones. And i just want to ask why . Because, you know, while you were talking, i was thinking, is that, you know, you cant eat and, eat tobacco or cotton, but you could just, you know, chew on the sugar, sugarcane. But i dont know. But but but but why did that kill more people . You know, im just wondering if you could expand that a little bit. Yeah, ill start with the last question. You have to imagine that during the cane harvest, the sugar harvest people had to work for 18 hours per day in the mills. Thats one thing the cane fields cutting in it is extremely arduous work. So people suffered from dehydrate and they were fed molasses. Thats thats the liquids, the sugar. But this is also healthy either so and then the cruelty and the pure sadism of the overseers as is the other factor. Another factor is also enslaved people decided to have children because the conditions were so terrible, so was really shocked. Reading all the literature about whats going on in plantations, its a shocking so so it was indeed at the end of the 18th century as planters of west indies said, well, how is it possible that the enslaved in new england are growing. And then they realize, okay, perhaps we have to treat our enslaved and that the immigration policy. So it did not help much, i must say. But thats its it were the conditions of the sugar, the combination of the very arduous work malnutrition. And they were often underfed. A lot of wars between european powers which also affect enslaved that old maids mortality figures appalling. So we talk really about a mortality figures of five or 6 per year. And second question about the political clout of sugar. Well, as i said, its the fact that its an Agro Industrial product means that there is a huge constituency of of farmers in, the United States and europe hunts of thousands. They have political power. And the fact that at the end of the so the refiners are very well organized and wellconnected so they are connected for example the in the early 20th century i talked about the sugar trust. They were direct connected to people at wall street. So this is really finance capital which played its role in the history of sugar. I talk about for example the relationship between the united and cuba the relationship between the United States and puerto rico the United States, hawaii, philippines, all these Political Developments or an imperialist developed since at the turn of the 20th century, we are also fed by sugar interests. So sugar and geopolitics are completely entwined like oil and geopolitics entwined in the 20th century. I hope i yeah. Yeah. I yeah, yeah. Sorry. Okay. Okay. So wasnt the average of an enslaved person in a place like barbados . About 4 to 6 years and can you talk a little bit about europe before sugar cultivate and enslavement and how sugar cultivation may have made it into a Global Financial power power . Thats correct. I think well, subtype of people say 7 to 8 years. I think it did it . Well, of course, the figures differ. They are all appalling. Um and the second part of your question was about the. Right to say, oh, things, how to food, how to sugar cultivation, develop europe and to go for what. Financial before sugar. So how did sugar sugar plantations in the new world, how did that transform as a global power . Oh yes. Well, there are different to different this debate and series about that. Of course, the williams thesis is very important, uh, of williams posit that thats the Industrial Revolution in england was possible by the profits paid in the atlantic commerce. I, i would formulate it that way. I myself been involved in, in research for the 18th century netherlands and we concluded that for the dutch at the end of the 18th century, motive 5 of the dutch economy, gdp was based upon atlantic slave based commerce. So sugar, tobacco, indigo etc. And for the profits of holland. And some of you may know, holland was at that time the most important part of dutch republic in the century. It was even 10 , which is the most dynamic part of the dutch economy. For france, the same figures, seven or 8 of the france economy, economy very late century was based off atlantic commerce and atlantic commerce was predominantly slave based. So i hope that this is an answer to your question. So indeed i am. My argument is that in in development of capitalism in europe and north america, slavery played an immensely important role. And also would add to that and underestimate its role. And thats also the claim make in this book. Its not entirely a new claim, but its of course part of the historical tradition, which we call new history of capitalism and. I belong to that school. I think. My question is, since the sugar plants depleted the land of nutrients, so greatly, was this something that helped to drive search for guano that went all over the world and to the far flung places of the world, to fertilizer for the plantations. Yeah. Yeah, i think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What . Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. So im wondering, you know, what weve learned about how, say, the Tobacco Industry has intentionally gotten people addicted to and i wonder if theres something analogous that youve understood about sugar. Is it it been have you uncovered a sort of a corporate capitalist sort of plot to to of distribute it with kind of the intention of getting people addicted to it . Do you know something about. Yeah, what . Addiction. Im careful to not use the word addiction, just case, because addiction to nicotine or to drugs, thats Something Different from. Getting accustomed to a certain hubristic. But i have made the claim in my book that the mechanisms used by the sugar industry are akin to the mechanisms used by the Tobacco Industry, namely so confusion about the various effects of this commodity. So for example. In the 1850s there was a debate what cost cardiovasc diseases and there was Research Done by Harvard University which said, well, fat is the problem. And that research was sponsored by the sugar industry. Thats true as well documented. So when we talk, for example, about coca cola, its always advertised a delight, something which can go well along with being supportive so sport drinks of for example. Well is a kind of contradiction in terms because its 10 sugar. Its not supportive, its unhealthy. So this is the way in which the Sugar Factories and sugar interests work their advertisements. Um, policies are highly sophisticated and particularly those of the beverage industry. I would even say that one could even claim that Tobacco Industry learned from the sugar industry in this respect, its very important to to note this. Yeah. Thank you, christine. Thank you. Because you talk about you mentioned the hopping, the hopping of the plantations, ireland to ireland and. Im sorry. You hopping. Can you talk a little bit more about that about how it worked . And then particularly kind of impact did it have on the environment or the land then and then . Now, several of those islands are are calling for particularly because of that history. Where is that . And did you write much about about that in the book . Yeah. Well i think that, for example, in the it started in the mediterranean realm where those islands became after a few decades. Cyprus is an example of that. Um, and then the in the west indies, barbados it was a miracle that barbados was not completely exhausted, lets say 20 or 30 years. So ships even went to surinam to, get soil from surinam to bring it to, to barbados later on. Of course we had the guano a stuffed bird dung, which was brought to these islands. But over time you could see of it is this tremendous deterioration of the natural, um cuba is another notorious example. So cuba was, was tremendously fertile. But in the course of a century, the island became exhausted and even droughts were became a problem of cuba in the early 20th century. One of the reasons why in the early 20th century cuban government tried to reduce the sugar output was because of the severe environmental consequences of sugar production. So this is a real problem. Now, today in west india, for example, droughts and dehydrate of the soil, a big problem in sugar belts of maharashtra for example. So and the other environ mental consequences of those of the cane burning burning of the leaves from the cane before. The harvest in brazil has been stopped because and paulo people complained about this huge fires and all the smoke caused by this cane cane burning but i think from the very beginning over the past 700 years, stars in the mediterranean until this very day we see a ruthless, ruthless encounter with the environment of of sugar production is really devastating. Effects on the natural habitat. And the pulp preparation. Sorry, and doesnt. Become and. Of course reparations, slavery and reparations for environmental. They are connected in a way of with i dont know whether this will. Or i dont know. Thank you so much i wondered if you could talk a bit about how you feel about the resilience of the sugar industry in terms of you know, we mentioned the oil industry, Tobacco Industry which has faced much more pushback, but with the sugar and theres some, you know, controversy. But by and large, you know, as you said, when you look around your kitchen, its its there. Its in a lot of the, you know, could talk a little bit about that, like the resilience. I think we should not underestimate the power the of the sugar industry it has emerged over the past 400 500 years in demand the competitive environment it has succeeded in becoming more and more efficiently more and more efficient to produce sugar as ever, ever lower prices is wellorganized and according to one american member of congress as well, the sugar industry is better organized. The National Rifle association, which is quite something. Im quoting somewhat not my statement. So, yes, i think we should not be naive about that. But at the same time, the sugar industry is dependent upon the goodwill of politicians and we are citizens. So we can vote. I hope we can vote for politicians who might sense the situation. And thats not just a problem in the United States. We have the problem in the netherlands. We have a very powerful sugar industry and. One time i said that there was ten or 15 years ago, they said a dutch radio that we should maximize the sugar intake per capita in the netherlands. The next day i got a telephone call from the dutch sugar industry. I was showing confusion as an academic and there was a conference between the dutch government and the sugar industry and i should intervene as an academic. Okay, well, i said, well, i think its my task as an academic to show confusion, to make people reflect on this. But they did not agree with me. So as i take my revenge. Thank you. But what it that sets sugar apart and what do you mean by that . That as you know, cases have been for looking at the world through the lens of various commodity, some of which have been mentioned here, oil, tobacco, cotton, coal, water, you know, sugar. So, you know, is special about sugar. I, i think whats special about sugar, how it has shaped the emergence of capitalism over the past 700 years. So its already started the whole process starts in asia, in asia and the 13th, 14th century its its a long history of so to to explain the history of capitalism sugar an excellent commodity to do so. And its also a commodity thats all over the place. Its everywhere. Its today its produced about hundred 30 countries in the world. So thats an important part. I think at the same time, it also makes us realize how capitalism shapes, our Consumption Patterns. We had this discussion for the past 10 minutes, so the both aspect of relationship between capitalism and sugar makes it special commodity. I think think. I wanted to ask about the Health Effects sugar like when in your research, you know, its been around for years and when does it become something causes sort of these Public Health crises in a lot of countries diabetes and other diseases like is there a turning point or is there you know, that were consuming 40 to 60 kilogram of sugar. And, you know, the ensuing Health Effects. Sure. As a health issue. I think it started at at the turn the 20th century then at that time, uh, doctors to realize that there was a problem with sugar, with metabolic diseases, um, with diabetes is, uh, obsessive diet diabetes, um, and its, it was little bit disputed, a bit in the 1920s and 1930s. Um, in the crisis years. And it came in the 1950s and 9060s, um, and i think as it was a turning point, i think in the 1980s, um, there was, in the 1970s was a Senate Commission headed by mcgovern it started to do, discuss and focus on malnutrition. And there was still hunger at that time in the United States in certain parts of society. So it started as an investigation to hunger and over the course two years, it became an investigation into obesity. And thats a very important point to be made, because the, uh, the, uh, the time between famine, between hunger and undernourishment. Im not talking about malnourishment or undernourishment and malnourishment and obesity is very short is a very short it can be within one generation. And this has everything to do with the fact that sweet food, sugar, food, food with a lot sugar is cheaper, that fresh food than good food. So as a matter of of of poverty and so poverty can lead poverty could have been a cause of under nutrition in the 1950s 1960s, 9070s and become uh, a source of, um of obesity in the 1980s and 1990s. And that happened the United States and also in other countries very, very short time span just within one generation. So that leads me to a follow up question about mental health. Did do any research about the effects on Peoples Mental Health with sugar . No, i didnt. And i can i can also give a very short explanation. It i tried to stay away from medical science. Im an historian. I should be very careful not to talk about things. Im not about that would undercut the message which i can so i can talk about the role of sugar capitalism in our mother societies and Consumption Patterns in this kind of things but when we talk about sugar and its effects human bodies. I, i need to be very careful to talk that. But two more questions and one is pretty quick. Haiti has suffered from soil depletion as. Well, and i wondered if your research linked sugar to that. And the second question is when you say sugar industry and i hear sugar industry, i know were thinking two different things. And im wondering if you can explain in your idea exactly the sugar industry is and what it means. The soil explosion in the eighties when you said yes, yeah, yeah, in the 18th century or 19th century. Well, it was, of course, extreme referred to for the french. It was a wonderful opportunity to start sugar in haiti. Um, i know what happened to after hundred in haiti. I dont know whether was still a major a sugar producer at that time. I dont think so anymore. It became, of course, the Dominican Republic emerged as, uh, as the dominant sugar producer of this island. Now, for the sugar industry, we. Must think about that, um, perhaps you could expand a little bit on that point too, and see the two or any. I, i didnt create any profound answer. Just what is the sugar industry . I think is fairly amorphous for me. Its more specific for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The corporations here, the copper. Well. Today in the global north, there are usually, uh, cooperatives or farmers who have their own, their industries. Uh, this particular case in, in europe. So the huge conglomerates are in fact owned by wheat farmers. Um, but they do not act as a kind of democratic organization. I mean, the farmers are share holders, but they are led by a kind of professional managers and they have a lot of power and a lot of influence, political influence. Um, for example, in brussels, or in washington, um, and thats what we call the sugar industry. Um, they are huge corporations. Um they are multinational. For example, we have the sucrose sugar crystals corporation in the, in florida, which is represented in 20 of 25 countries in this world, a large sugar corporation, the world is partly owned by two by private persons. The fondue family who originate from cuba. And its also a sugar corporation. So a sugar cooperative, sorry. Um, so this is what understand why the sugar industry is a huge corporate interest. Um and that they, they came into existence in the 19th century and became increasingly powerful in the early 20th century. And they often often led by individual people, but individual families, their personal properties often tend to say a few things about some of the families because or just how long theyve been in operation. Yeah, this point because thats thats a point which i make in, in, in my book is that capitalism in fact has a face we talked about the frontier families here in the United States. We talk about the title the life in in britain we have talking about other families of the birla in in india. They are all powerful Sugar Producers and they are within a few generations they they they managed to build a huge sugar empire. Um, so this is what we really wanted to stress. Thats, were not talking about the kind of amorphous, you say amorphous industries, but they are really powerful, led by, by, by individual people, individual families that are well to the banking world, to the financial world, and to the political world. I think were a time and that capitalism a face and sugar capitalism has a face. So you mentioned the table family tate modern the tape museum in london that is the family so if you want to know these are very public family so this is what that is one face of sugar when we go and look at a fancy museum for i think we are coming to the kind of the formal part into the formal part of this event. We invite all to come and chat with oba hell be here. Hell be signing books as well and thank you all so much for coming. Hell be signing books here. The books are available on that side then. Do you want to say anything else . I think you do my job. All right. Well, i hope im showing for work tomorrow. Dan. Things are we are live with author mary eberstadt. She will take your questions via text, calls and emailed. She is the author of books how the west really lost god and adam and eve after the pill, revisited. Host author mary eberstadt, where why are there two versions of your