Transcripts For CSPAN2 Historic 20240704

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Is called section 106 and that is a requirement that all federal agencies have to request the to take into account the impact of their projects of their undertakings and thats broadly construed permit of funding actual license a connection nexus in any way that they have to take that into account if theyre going to have a an effect on a Historic Property or a potential Historic Property defined as a property on our eligible for the National Register. And then they have to request a comments of the Advisory Council give the council a reasonable opportunity to comment and thats the regulatory section in thatsth the regulatory section and they implement the statutory requirement. You can the council on Historic Preservation shutdown a project . No, the council cannot come about a citizen could. A citizen could bring suit against federal agencies planning that they hadnt complied with of the national hepresentation tacked and they could get a temporary restraining order and to shut it down and require that the agency comply however that would play out. But the council itself and advisory in nature and as long s the Council Comments or obtain however the council may comment, the agency can look at the t comments, consider the comments and then come forward to do what they want to do. As long as the agency complied with then requirements in the code of federal regulations obtain the comments taken into account they can ultimately do what they want to do. Its when agencies dont initiate that process they will run into trouble and they are subject to citizen lawsuit. Lets go back to 1966, why that year was the Historic Preservation act passed. It actually was evolution. Look at the federal governments involvement in the preservation starts with of the Antiquities Act of 1906. Ha that act which is still some has been replaced by other statutes but is still the law to establish the monuments and that is where we recently have learned about that. But it was the result from the realization that the turn of the century of 1900 we were losing a lot of the work patrimony. Other nations were coming here doing archaeological excavation and taking it back to europe and if you go back to europe you will find some excellent collectionsat of the artifacts. Then the government began to, so there was a permitting section set up. That is set up a process toos identify landmarks because we were losing those and it made us realize that there had to be some protection. That leads and 66 to the National Preservation act. The realization that progress was destroying our Cultural Resources. And so that led to a conference of mayors which came together and they looked at the problem. We need some legislation that will protect the properties of not only National Significance but local and state. So particularly from january and then in october of the same year of 66, Congress Passes the act to deal with that issue. How many federal agencies do you work with . There are 24 statutory members on the Advisory Council, 24 members, eight are private citizens like myself and then the remaining are federal agencies and they include the dot, veterans administration, department of the interior, department of defense, department of education. So all the rest are all federal agencies. Along with a layer, a governor, the National Association of tribal Historic Preservational officers and the National Conference of state Historic Preservation officers. So, what are some of the controversial cases that have come before the Advisory Council . The dakota pipeline as you might recall involved a pipeline that would go across a waterway that was of significance. That has gone several ways. The courts have improved it and have reexamined the permitting so that is one of the controversial areas. Theres a number of cases however that demonstrate the Productive Work of the Advisory Council and we would love to focus on those. They are very diverse, so you have a park in the san diego area. You have the Space Shuttles that have been determined eligible. You have one of the last remaining black Officers Clubs at Fort Leonard Wood in missouri that was saved. Having been associated with this agency for almost 40 years, i take great pride, and they do too, in the way in which they harmonized modern development and preservation of historic properties. And that has its a littleknown story and im delighted that im able to tell it today, but its a very important one. How did you get involved in this 40 years ago . I started as a summer intern right out of are you a history major . I wanted to work in the National Park and the only job that i was offered was at the national monument. That wasnt my idea of a National Park. The ladies room to the left commandments room to the right. Then i learned of this agency that had just been started, so we are talking about, to reveal my age, we are talking 1972. And then the agency had a really just begun to higher all the folks and started as a summer intern. Then i was made permanent and i worked there for a decade. Teaching in this area and working in this area the section 106 regulatory area. When it came to the military how did the section 106 the militaryct federal agency and section 106 requires all federal agencies take into account the effect of their project on a Historic Property eligible for the register and for the advisoryre council. Lets look at the block Officers Club for example. That club at Fort Leonard Wood was built around 1942. Theres actually still some interesting work builtlt by thoe and after the war the building was used for a variety of things. It began to deteriorate a little bit. Then we had to figure out what are we going to do we want to do to demolish it that would have clearly been an adverse effect. So the consultation process, which is the heart of these regulations, not all the stakeholders together including by the way, in the Officers Club there was a mural painted by the sergeant, a very wellknown africanamerican artist while he etwas there. They came together and they decided lets figure out a way to preserve. Pl it is very significant. And they did after a couple of years come up with a plan and embedded in a memo of agreement. Lets look at a video from the Advisory Council on the Historic Preservations project at Fort Leonard Wood. Building at 2101 is one of the original buildings constructed in 1941 when Fort Leonard Wood. Missouri was established. It was a time of segregation in the army and the building was reassigned in 1942 as the black Officers Club for the engineering training group. The party was supposed to demolition of one of the last remaining world war ii era black Officers Clubs working together an occupant was identified and it was determined at the building was being converted into a classroom. The mural would be preserved and prepared to be made to the 1940s era built by german president s of work. In august the consulting parties used the section 106 process to strongly advocate to preserve the building and find compatible use of building 2101 illustrates how the properties can be productive assets to an Installations Mission as well as a venue to tally cultural history and support the National Historical importance of the experience. The preservation and continued use will provide countless opportunities to provide the story of africanamerican officers during world war ii to future generations. That project you said took several years. Why is that . Because the military had to of course they had to decide to do they have the funds to restore it and how would it be restored. There are standards published by the department of the interior that had to be met. So some have taken a little bit longer than that but they needed to get everybody on the same page to get the memorandum. That group was involved, the state was involved and then you had o interestingly enough, the niece of the artist that was involved. There is a requirement that the public be involved and if the public isnt, that could be an issue that would wind up in court because they clearly state that so the army needed, do we have the money what are we going to use it for then giving these other folks the local Preservation Society involved so theres a lot of players but it again, thats when i think that this process allows sometimes people to stop to rethink to see if we can come up with a different solution or alteration. Thats happened in other cases in San Diego California and in an amazing project where a number of wellknown latin american and mexicanamerican murals had been painted on these. Wo they needed restoration and the Highway Administration came up with money at its enhancement to rehabilitate these murals working with the california transportation and they are now preserved and the park is refreshed and filling the role that it has and is highlighting mexicanamerican civil rights. Were the murals to be moved because of the transportation project . They had become in need of repair. So it was an enhancement. But a project where the property was moved very interesting was the lighthouse at massachusetts. What was happening there is the lighthouse owned by the coast guard was about to be washed away because the cliffs that had been ruled were eroding away. So something had to be done and the only thing that could be done was to move w it but we are talking about a 51foot 400 a ton lighthouse. Whats going to happen here. The coast guard said look, we are willing to transfer this to a private party if they want to maintain it but someones got to move it and we dont have the funds so what they did in the federal process of these the agency would take the party and transferred too the General Service administration. Then a local group came up with the money to move the sand the lighthouse is saved thanks to the work of the coast guard and the General Service administration and the localtn people coming together. Its a Wonderful Partnership story of how that happened. You refer to that as an Advisory Council on Historic Preservation success. What was your role throughout the process . Theres a criteria in the demolition by neglecting to so the coast guard by allowing something to happen they cant do that they cant allow the decision to allow do not don. Anything to protect as a decision so that was defined as an undertaking and they had a responsibility to take some action. They could have tried to demolish it but they didnt. They wouldnt allow the lighthouse they owned at that point to just be washed away. At the council managed that process. 8 milliondollar budget, 40 people, very small federal agency. How many cases come across in the transit . Every year there are about 5,000 cases. Many of them are settled at the state level. Only the cases t where theres n adverse effect that they feel they can help in this and arrive at a good solution are they involved. Of those about 200 a year. As with any federal agency it is a small complement that has a huge mandate it is a new era because in many respects this is part of the environmental movement. Theres otherr statutes. The National Environmental policy act that requires agencies to take into account the impact on Cultural Resources. Theres a number to do with archaeology so this is a growing area and as people were advised that is the public they realize they have a place in this process i think that you are going to see more involvement. To that whole compendium has been growing over the years, definitely. Is your position on a political position . Yes it is. I was appointed by president obama in one of the members of the council in 2016 and i was reappointed this past june and named the vice chair man of the council for another term so i will be serving until 2025. T we do have a full time theres nome chairman at the moment. Im the acting chairman, but the fulltime chairman is working her way through the process. Sarah is her name and she will hopefully be taking over at some point in 2022 if not before. Its always possible. Like other agencies is there a requirement for x number of Minority Party in this case the republicans and Majority Party democrats . No, theres not. So it could be aid from one party yes, absolutely. Is Historic Preservation political though . For some of the political issues . You know, there are political issues in terms of some of the funding. I think that is involved. The whole area of the preservation,er our Mission Statement is the diverse Cultural Resources and not everyone agrees with that. If you dont agree with of thatf you want to put in, do some drilling on the federal land use with a case that we talked about in utah then you will go political we need to start getting your support to be able to do that. But again we dont look at preservation. Explained the Nine Mile Canyon. Its the bureau of Land Management and an Energy Company that wanted to do some drilling on this area. This area also has an amazing collection of rock art and there are 10,000 areas and it includes 100,000 individual figures. The issue w there was they were willing to give permits to the federal undertaking to do some natural gas platforms, but they wanted to make sure that the properties were treated. The damage that was occurring from the trucks going into the roads which was dirt roads and the dust and the particles that that created was destroying the rock art and so there was an undertaking and they came out withag fiona agreement where thy built the surface road and were able to protect the rock art and that was the solution in the Nine Mile Canyon and its worked very, very well. Another Success Story and important area for tribal rights for sure. And again heres some video provided by the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. Oil and Gas Resources happened to follow in an area that has incredible resources. Water resources, air, and of course Cultural Resources. Nine mile canyon is a worldrenowned outdoor gallery. It00 has almost 10,000 that have been recorded in the area. Archaeologists dont really know why the concentration exists the way that it does but being that tributary through the plateau takes it somewhat of a natural corridor and the Council Valley down here to the south so people have been through that canyon for at least 10,000 years. There were 18 parties involved in the programmatic agreement for the west halfer of the platu Energy Development project. Three of the parties were signatories that were necessary for executing the agreement. The utah state Historic Preservation office. There were a lot of stipulations included. Generally the stipulations outlined a process for identifying the properties as the project went forward and as it stayed and there were also stipulations that set forth ways of minimizing and avoiding and mitigating effects to the historic properties. Some included literature searches, different types of surveys and monitoring. There was also a study to assess the effects. The controversy there was no simple solution. It took a lot of effort from the county as well as the consulting parties to try to come up with a plan that would work and it involved doing numerous things suche as hiring the conservators to come out and claim up the sites to conduct studies on what affects were actually having on the rock art and we just kind of moved on from there and it was decided that paving the road would be the better solution. One thing to remember is the rvnational Historic Preservation act as we call it a shorthand is a process. Ntits the process its importat to follow through with. Its not the end result. We realize we should have started earlier talking to these consulting parties to get their input because it would have gone a lot smoother and thats been one of the things that weve argued forpa since then use we need to involve people earlier gone then the process and not wait until decisions are being made because some of those decisions are going to say you may not have a legal back up to support that if you havent involved the groups early on. You are watching American History tv and we are talking with jordan tannenbaum the acting vice chair of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. We are talking about Historic Preservation efforts in the United States. Or the states active in this as well . Yes, they have to be. So you have 50 state agencies plus the federal agency. That is why the national nationalconference of the statec preservation officers are a member of the advisory counseling and why every state integrate territory by the way have the Historic Preservation officers as well. They must be involved in the process and they know the state resources better than anyone and they are vitally important in this section 106 process. And again remind us 106. 106 as ana part of the natiol Historic Preservation act of 1966. Its the regulatory section of the statute and it has its requirement in summary to require federal agencies taken toki affect the historic propery is defined as properties on were eligible for the Historic Places and that of the afford of the Advisory Council on the Historic Preservation a reasonable opportunity. Its been clarified in the code of federal regulations. Given what we know about lady bird johnsons proclivities, was she supportive of the National Preservation act . She was active in promoting it. Absolutely as we know. It was signed into law in 66 it would have been her husband that was president and yes, very much, very supportive and as was another agency that i know she was reactive and the National Trust for Historic Preservation and they are also a member of the council. How was their work different than yours . They are a nationwide Membership Organization and so we are not membership, we are a federal agency and that is the difference we arty federal agency. They are a Member Organization and they have a charter. The world is changed over the approach, the orientation over the years but they are a very important partner in the work that we are doing. And they have a number of friends that worked for them for a number of years so im pretty familiar with the work that they do and they are an important member of the team. You mentioned early on in the discussion that Environmental Issues are important when it comes to Historic Preservation. We consider the cultural environment at part of the environmental movement. And in fact, as the acting chairman of the council at this point i have set up a task force to deal with Climate Change and this focuses directly on the native american tribes and citizens who have a direct connection with the natural esfeatures in the country and to them these are very significant, they are not just its part of their values and religion so all of the existing environmental umbrellas and environmental statutes deal with Cultural Resources now. Jordan tannenbaum, what do you do at the Space Shuttle . Thank you for asking. What we do is preserve them and nominate them to the National Register thats one of the categories that they can go on the National Register along with district structure sites and in the case of the shuttles, all three of them the discovery and the companies that are remaining that are at some point ready to be accessed, we save them and document them and make sure that they would be protected and they are now at the three remaining shuttles in california and at the Johnson Space center in houston and in florida, the Kennedy Space center and at thee museum being interpreted, so we save them because they are an important part of our cultural. We save them in every part. The rockets, everything is recorded and saved. Who does the actual recording and chronicling . Let me say the agency involved there was the nassau federal agency and the agency thathe does the recording is a, theres two agencies that do recording like this one, the historic American Engineering record and the other is called the Historic Building survey and they are both National Park Service Entities created by the Historic Site act that i mentioned early on which passed in 1966. How many location structures et cetera are on the National Register and was that part of the 1960s exact . Yes it was. What it did was that register came into existence in the act which also created here it dealt with the properties of National Significance what wena Call National historic landmarks. It took the preservation act of 66 to say we are going to broaden the definition to include properties of state and local significance so it didnt create but it did expand the National Register and in terms of how many are on the National Register somewhere probably around 152,000. Now keep in mind thats not just one property, that could be a district with 500 properties so thats one metric. The other metric thats important is properties that are eligible that meet the registered criteria set up by the park service. That is hundreds of thousands and they also get protection. I once lived in a neighborhood that had National Historic status. What does that mean . It means that you are depending on what the use of the properties might be eligible for tax benefits. It could be certainly it might enhance the value of the property, and it has. In our area we know in old town alexandria, georgetown, all historic districts thats important. In addition, there are Technical Assistance you could get from the National Park service, rehabilitate along with possible grants that are available as well so theres a lot ofge advantages to being on the National Register of Historic Places. Of course then on that, you have overlaid local ordinances. Sometimes they are actually more restrictive than being on the National Register. That doesnt do anything to the property rights. Speaking as a lawyer the properties as far as im concerned its everything that benefits. The only time that theres a restriction is that there is a federal undertaking that in some way might have an effect on your property and then this process that weve been talking about comes into play. It doesnt happen that often, but thats how there could be some impact. Is this a fulltime job for you or do you have other activities here in washington . I have other activities. This isnt a fulltime job as the vice chairman. It is a fulltime job. I am currently the gv and have been for the last 17 and a half years. The Development Officer for the United States Holocaust Memorial museum here in town. And that is my fulltime job for sure. Is there a section 106 story . There actually is. The building that i work in was part of the auditors complex and its a very interesting story. The complex part of that bureau printing and when they were building the museum they couldnt use several of the existing buildings that were there but they wanted too say they could use the ross building. It had a different name at that point. I worked on the project when w i worked for the Advisory Council from 72 to 82. So that building is on the National Register. It was part of a memo of agreement that saved the building so that it would be rehabilitated and adaptively used. So, yes theres a very personal connection that i have to that particular structure. Now, what does the chiefet Development Officer do to raise money . We are at a billiondollar campaign and closing in on the goal of the billion dollars as i sit here speaking with you this morning we are at 992 million and what are you going to do with that money . We have the money thats being raised for all the programs, the money goes to a conservation facility that we build in maryland and dedicated a couple of years ago. We are actively searching for artifacts into the window is closing. We are getting huge collections. Most of it is that the chapelle center. How many hours a week do you spend on the Advisory Council . Now its a little bit unusual because im the acting chairman, so i probably spend about, and this is all burning the midnight oil, about 20 hours a week, 15 to 20 hours a week and i have to review all of the memos of agreement that are coming in that needed to be signed. I have some responsibilities as managing staff of doing some reviews and responsibilities to speak and to share information about the council as im doing this morning and when the elchairman arrives, i will welce her with open arms. But its been a very enjoyable experience. A. Into joining us as the acting chair, the vice chair of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. We appreciate your time. Thanknk you. Our pleasure