Transcripts For CSPAN2 Historic 20240704

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That is a requirement that all federal agencies have two request to take into account the impact of their projects, or their undertakings and then broadly construed the permit of funding actual license. A connection, nexis in any way. They have to take that into account if they will have an effect on a Historic Property or potential Historic Propertyib defined as a Property Owner eligible for the National Register. And then they have to request the comments of the Advisory Council. Give the council a reasonable opportunity. That is a regulatory section. There are ways that implement that statutory requirement. Shutting down aga project . No. The council cannot appeared but, a citizen could. A citizen could bring suit against a federal agency claiming they hadn not complied with the preservation act. They could get a temporary restraining order and shut it down and require that the agency comply however that would play out. The council itself is advisory in nature. So, as long as the Council Comments are obtained, however the council may comment, the agency can accept that it can look at those comments, consider those comments but then they can gos forward and do what they wat to deal. As long as the agency has complied with the requirements, obtaining the comments taken into account the effective undertaking, they can ultimately do what they want to do. It is when an agency does not initiate that process where they will run into trouble and are subject to citizen lawsuit. Why that year was there a Historic Preservation act passed it actually was an evolution. Going back and looking at the a federal governments involvement in the Historic Preservation. It starts with the Antiquities Act of 1906. That act, which some of it has been replaced by other statutes, but it is still good law to establish historic monuments. That is where we have many people that ive learned about that act. That act resulted from a realization that at the turn of the century in 1900s, we were losing a lot of our cultural hpatrimony. Other nations wereba actually coming here doing archaeological expectations and taking it back to europe. You will find some excellent collections, you know, native american artifacts. Then it moves along, the government began so, there was a permitting section set up. In 1935 you have something called the Historic Sites act. That set up a process to identify landmarks because we were losing those, too. There had to be some protection. That leads to the National Star preservation act. Ig that was a direct result of the growth of the interstate highway system. The reservoirs thatei were being built. A realization that progress was esdestroying our Cultural Resources. It was actually a conference of mayors in january 1966 which came together. They looked at the problem. We need some legislation that will protect these properties not only national significance, but local and state. January and then october the same year of 1966, Congress Passes the National Start preservation act to deal with that issue. Was it bipartisan . Yes, it definitely was. Yes. How many agencies do you work with . 24 statutory members on the Advisory Council. Eight are private citizens like myself. The remaining are federal agencies. They include dot, veterans administration, department of interior, department of defense. Department of education. All the rest are all federal agencies. A long with a mayor, a governor, the National Association of tribal Historic Preservation officers and the o National Conference of state preservation officers. What are some of the controversial cases that have come before the Advisory Council prior to today . The Dakota Access pipeline is one that came up recently and as you may recall, involved a pipeline going across a waterway that was of significance to native american tribes. That was a core permit. There was a lot of litigation. One of the things that they pride themselves on is encouraging consultation of native american tribes. That is a big issue these days. That has gone several ways. The courts have approved it. The courts have reexamined the permitting. That was one of the controversial areas. A number of cases however that demonstrate the Productive Work of the Advisory Council and would love to focus on those, too. They are very diverse. You have a park in san diego area. You have the space shuttles which have been determined eligible. You have one of the last remaining black Officers Clubs, Fort Leonard Wood in missouri that was saved. And having been associated with this agency for almost 40 years, i take great pride, and they do, too, and the way they feminized modern development and preservation of Historic Properties. And it is a littleknown story and im delighted that i am able to tell it today, but it is a very important one. How did you o get involved in this 40 years ago . I started as a summer intern. I was a history major. I wanted to work, actually, and ya National Park. The only thing i was offered was a national monument. That was not my idea. Then i learned that this agency had just been started. Revealing my age, talking 1972. The agency had just begun to hire. Started a summer intern. Did not know much about Historic Preservation. It sounded interesting. I joined the team. On forty people now worked there with a budget of 8 million. I was made permanent and i worked there for a decade and then went on to some other areas but ive always stayed involved in Historic Preservation. I was in the military. Did a lot of work as a jag officer. Section 106 area. Regulatory area. How did the Historic Preservation section fit in . The army Agency Requires that all federal agencies take into account the effect of their project on a Historic Property and for the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation a reasonable opportunity to commentt. They have to comply. Lets lookxa at the black offics club, for example. That club out Fort Leonard Wood, it was built around 1942. Actually some interesting stonework built by prisoners of war that were there. After the war, the building was used for a variety of things. By 2014 2011, excuse me, they did not really have a use for it no one was really interested. It began to deteriorate a bit. There wasnc a problem there because it was owned by the military, a federal agency, by the army, and they had a responsibility to maintain that. It was determined to be eligible for the National Register. The first part of this regulatory process to see if we have Historic Property. And, once thaten was determined, then they had to figure out what are we going to do . They wanted to demolish it. The consultation process which is the heart of these regulations, got all the stakeholders together, including , by the way, in the Officers Club there was a mural painted by a very wellknown africanamerican artist while he was there as staff sergeant. They all came together and they decided letsid figure out a way to preserve it. It is very significant. And they did after a couple of years come up with a plan. It was embedded in an agreement. That building has been saved and actually given an award recently lets look at a little video from thewo Advisory Council out Fort Leonard Wood. Building 2101 was one of the original buildings constructed in 1941 when Fort Leonard Wood missouri was established. A time of segregation and the building was reassigned in 1942 as a black also black officersed club. Opposed to demolition of one of the last remaining world war ii era black Officers Club working intogether in occupant was identified and it was determined the building would be converted into a classroom meeting and social setting. Repairs would be made to the 1940s era built by german prisoners of war. Building 2101 began in 2018 and the Ribbon Cutting ceremony was held in august 2018. The consulting parties use a section 106 process to strongly advocate to preserve the building and find compatible use building 2101 illustrates how the properties can be conducted assets to an Installations Mission as well as a venue to support thehe Larger National significance of the africanamerican military experience. Preservation and continued use will provide countless opportunities to tell the story of officers during world war ii to t future generations. Jordan, that project you said took several years. Why is that . Because the military had to, of course, it is a bureaucracy and they had to come to decide if they had the funds to restore it and how would it be restored. What, there are standards published by this department of interior. They had to be met. Actually, as things go, some of taken a little bit longer than that. They needed to get everybody on the same page, really. To get that memorandum signed. Who are those players . Every state has a state historic reservation officer. That group was involved. If the public is not, that could be an issue that would wind up in court because it clearly states that. So, the army needed to find out, do we have the money, what will we useoc it for . That process takes a while. Then youre getting all of these other folks involved. There were a lot of players. This process allows sometimes people to stop, look, listen, to rethink, to see if we can come up with a different solution than demolition or alteration. Coming up with a creative approach and they did. That is happened in other cases, too. A case in san diego california, the chicano park where an amazing, amazing project, a highway where al number of wellknown muralist, latin american and mexicanamerican muralist had painted. Byby the 90s, they had become, they needed work, they needed restoration and the federal administration came up with money under its enhancement program, transportation enhancement to rehabilitate these murals working with caltrans, the California Transportation Agency and they preserved. And, the park there, it is refreshed and filling the role that it has at highlighting mexicanamerican civil rights. Jordan, you mentioned several transit agencies involved in this project. Were these murals to be moved because of transportation projects . No. They had just become in need of repair. It was an enhancement. But, a project where a property was moved, very interesting was the white house in massachusetts what was happening there was a lighthouse owned by the coast guard was about to be washed away because the cliffs on which it had been built were eroding away. So, something had to be done and the only thing that could be done to save the lighthouse was to move it. 51foot 400ton lighthouse built in 1866. What is going to happen here . The coastng guard said, look, we are willing to transfer this to a private party if they want to hamaintain it, but someone has o move it and we dont have the funds to move it. So what they did, any agency would take its property and transferred to the General Services administration. A local group came upnd with the money to move this in the white house was saved thanks to the work of the cults coast guard it is a wonderful partnership. A wonderful story of how that happened. You refer to that as Advisory Council on Historic Preservation success story. What was t your role through ths process . There is a criteria of adverse demolition by neglect. The coast guard, by allowing nothing to happen, they cannot do that. A decision to not do anything, protect the white house, that was defined as an undertaking. They had a responsibility to take some action. They could have tried to demolish it, but they did not. This Partnership Came together. They could not allow a lighthouse that they owned at that point to just be washed away. That is not allowed under these rights. And the council manage that processdg. 8 million budget, 40 people very small federal agency. How many cases come across the transit every year . Every yearr about 5000. Many of them, most of them are settled at the state level. Only the cases where there is an adverse affect and the council feels that they can help in this and arrive at a solution are they involved. Of the 5000, about 750 come through the Advisory Council. Either they elect to look at them or they ask at the council s assistance. Of those, probably about 200 a year. Being worked on by that team. Now, that is 40 people. Not all of them are caseworkers. It is a small complement that has a huge, huge mandate. How large is the law area of historic reservation . Growing. It isar a new area. In many respects, this is part of the environmental movement. There are other statutes. They require agencies to take into account their impact on Cultural Resources. There are a number of statutes to deal with archaeology. This is a growing area. As people realized, they, as a public, they have a place in this process. I think that you will see more involvement, hopefully. It is there. That whole compendium of law is growing, yes, over the years. Definitely. Is your position a political position . Yes, it is. How so. I was appointed by president obama01 in 2016. I was reappointed this past june and made the vice chairman of the council. For another term. I will be serving until 2025. We do have so, there is no chairman at the moment. I am the acting chairman, but the fulltime chairman is working her way through the process. Sarah is her name. She, hopefully, will be taking over at some point in 2022. Like other regulatory agencies, is there a requiremenr for x number of Minority Party in thiss case the republicans . And Majority Party the democrats no, there is not. Is Historic Preservation political . Some of the political issues that you get into. You know, there are political issues in terms of some of the funding. I think that that is involved. The whole area of the preservation, our Mission Statement is that we promote the preservation, the enhancement and the sustainable use of this countries diverse Cultural Resources. Not everyone agrees with that. If you dont agree with that, if you want to do some drilling on federal land and there is some rock art as is the case, the case we talked about, in utah, then, you will go political. You will start getting your support to be able to do that. But, again, we dont look at preservation as thwarting progress. They have an amazing collection of rock art in utah appeared 10,000 areas of individual figures. The issue there is blm was willing to give permits to thet federal undertaking permit. Taking some mining, some natural gas platforms. But, they wanted to make sure, fthey needed to make sure that the Historic Properties were properly treated. The damage, dirt roads and the dust and the particles that that created was destroying the rock art. And, so, there was an undertaking improving the permit the Advisory Council was involved. They built a Heart Service road, avoided the duct and was able to avoid. It has worked very, very well. Another success story. Tribal rights, for sure. Again, here is video provided by the Advisory Council for Historic Preservation. Oil and Gas Resources happen to fall in an area that also has incredible resources. Water resources, air c resource, plants and vegetation. Nine mileut standings is a world renowned gallery of rock arts. Almost 10,000 rock art sites that have been recorded in the area. Archaeologists dont really know why thehe concentration of rock art exists the way that it does. Nine mile canyon being the did tributary makes it somewhat of a natural corridor between the basin and the north and Castle Valley down here in the south. People have been transacting through that canyon for at least 10,000 years moving between here and the basin up north. 18 parties involved in drafting the agreement for the Energy Development projects. Three of those parties were signatories that were necessary for executing the agreement. Blm, utah state Historic Preservation office in the ach p there were a lot of stipulations included in the plateau pa. Generally the stipulations outlined a process for identifying Historic Property as the project went forward. There were also stipulations that set forth ways of minimizing and avoiding known Historic Properties and mitigating effects to Historic Properties. Some of the identification stipulations included literature searches, different types of surveys and monitoring. Also a study to assess the effects of dust on the rock art. The controversy with the road , no simple solution. It took a lot of effort from the blm, the county with its roads department, as well as the consulting parties onha the pa o try to come up with a plan that would work. Hiring rock art conservators to come up in cleanup the sites. Studies on what affects the salt the effects that it is having on the rock art. We just kind of moved on from there. Paving the road would be the better solution. The thing to remember is National Preservation act sectionte 106 is a process. The steps that are important to follow through with. We realize we should have started earlier talking with these consulting parties to get their input. It would have gone a lot smoother. That is one of the things that we have argued for tribes and consulting parties since then. We need to involve earlier on in the process. They may not have legal backup to support early on. You are watching American History tv. We are talking with jordan tannenbaum. We are talking about Historic Preservation efforts in the United States. Our states active in this as well . Yes. They have to be. 50 state agencies plus a federal agency plus that is why the national Historic Preservation officer, the Umbrella Organization is a member and why every state and every territory, by the way, territories have this as well. They must be involved in the process. S. They know their states resources better than anyone. They are vitally important in this section 106 process weve been talking about. Remind us section 106 is. A part of the national Historic Preservation act of 1966. It is the regulatory section of that statute and its requirement , just a paragraph in summary to require, it requires federal agencies take into account the effect of their undertaking on historic o properties defined as properties on or eligible for the National Register of places and that they afford the Advisory Council a reasonable opportunity to comment. Been clarified in the regulations 106. Given what we know about lady bird johnsons proclivities, was she supportive of the national Historic Preservation. Absolutely. Was she active in promoting it . Absolutely. Signed into law in 1966 it wouldve been her husband that was president. Yes, very much. Very supportive ofs that. Another agency, i know she was active in the Historic Trust and they are also a member of the council. How is their work differentre than yours . They are a nationwide membership organization. And, so, we are not membership. We are federal agency. We are federal agency. They are a member organization. Nonprofit ngo. Correct, yes. They have a charter. Came from the government in 1949 their role has changed, their approach, their orientation has changed over the years, but they are very important partner in the work that we are doing. Working for them for a number of yearst. So, i am pretty familiar with the work that they do. They are an important member of our team. You mentioned early on in our discussion that Environmental Issues are very important when it comes to Historic Preservation. Yes. We consider the cultural environment part of the environmental movement. In fact, as part of the acting chairman i have set up a task force to deal with climate change. This, this focuses directly on our native american tribes, our native american citizens who have ath direct connection with the natural features in our country. And, to them, for them, these are veryit significant. It is a part of their culture, it is a part of their values and religion. So, and, all of the existing environmental umbrella and environmental statutes deal with Cultural Resources now. Jordan tannenbaum, what do you deal with the thank you for asking. What we do with them as we preserve them. We nominate them to the National Registerna. One of the categories of properties that can go on the National Register along with district structure sites and in the case of the shuttles, all three of t them, the discovery d company withoutut our remaining and were at some point ready to be accessed, we save them, we documented them and we made sure that they would be protected and they are now, the three remaining shuttles are now in california, Johnson Space center in houston and in florida at Kennedy Space center in a museum and being interpreted. We saved them because they were an important part of our cultural patrimony. Save them in every part of them. Their motors, generators, the rockets,s, everything was record and saved. Who does the actual recording . Let me just say the agency involved, there wasy nasa. The agency that does the recording is, there are two agencies that do recording like this. Historic American Engineering record and the other is a Historic American Building survey. They are both National Park service entities. Created by the Historic Sites act which i mentioned early on. Which passed in 1966. Mr. Tannenbaum, how many locations, structures, et cetera are on the National Register. What it did was that register came into existence in the Historic Sites act which created agencies w. It dealt with National Historic landmarks. It took the preservation act to say we will broaden that definition to include properties of state and local significance. It did expand the National Register of historic places. In terms of how many were on the National Register, somewhere around 150,000. 150,000. Keep in mind that is not just one property. That could be a district. 500 properties. That is one metric. The other metric that is important is properties that are eligible for the register that meet the register criteria. That could be an infinite number hundreds of thousands. Ithey also get protection from 106. I once lived in a neighborhood that had National Historic status. What does that mean . Depending on what the use of the property, may be eligible for taxta benefits. It could be, and certainly may enhance the value of your property and it has. In our area we know old town alexandria, georgetown all future historic districts. That is important. In addition, there is Technical Assistance you can get from the National Park service. Lets say along with a possible grant that did a small grant program. There are a lot of advantages for a National Historic places. You have overlaid local ordinances. Sometimes there are actually, in many cases, more restrictive than being on the National Register of historic places. That does not do anything to your property rights. Neyour property is on the natiol register. As far as im concerned, everything that benefits it. The only time there is a restriction as if there is a federal undertaking that some way may have an effect on your property and then this process that we have been talking about comes into play. It doesre not happen that often. There could be some impact. Is this a fulltime job for you . Yes, i have other activities. Vice chairman, chairman it is a fulltime job. I am currently the chief andte have been for the last 17 and a half years. Chief Development Officer for the United States Holocaust Museum here in town. That isui my fulltime job for sure. Is there a section 106 story for the Holocaust Museum . There actually is. Part of the auditors complex. This is a very interesting story part of that printing and engraving complex, when they were building the Holocaust Museum, they could not use several of the existing buildings that were there. They wanted to say they could use the ross building. Different name at that point. M i actually worked on this project when i worked for the Advisory Council from 7082. Cap building is on the National Register. Part off a memo of agreement tht saved the y building and said it would be rehabilitated and adapted the use. So, yes, there is a very personal connection that i have to that particular structure. What does a chief Development Officer do . Raise money . You bet. We are in a billiondollar campaign. We are closing in on our goal of 1 billion. As i sit here speaking with you this morning 992 million. What are you going to do with that money . The money that is being raised to support all of our programs. The money goes to a conservation facility that we built in maryland and dedicated a couple years ago. Are you still gettingng an artifact . Yes. We are actively searching and the window is closing. Yes, we are getting artifacts. Huge collection. Most of it stored in maryland at our chapelle center named after the family. How many hours a week do you spend on the Advisory Council . Now . In [laughter] now is a little unusual because i am the acting chairman. This is all usually burning the midnight oil. About 20 hours a week. Fifteen20 hours a week. I have to review all the memos of agreement that need to be signed. I have some responsibilities as managing staff and doing reviews i have responsibilities to speak and to share information about th council. Yeah, it is a big job. When the fulltime chairman arrives, i will welcome her with open arms. It has been a very enjoyable experience. Th joining us is the acting chair and vice chair of the Advisory Council onum Historic Preservation jordan tannenbaum. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much. A pleasure. A pleasure. American history tv. Saturdays on cspan2 appeared exploring the people and events that tell the american story. 6 00 p. M. Eastern library of congress posts a conversation marking president trumans executive order 9981 prohibiting discrimination in the u. S. Military. Also, President Biden talks with former president executive order and the accomplishments for minorities in the military at the truman civil rights symposium. At 9 30 p. M. Eastern on the presidency, historian h appeal grant looks at gerald ford in the context of the 1970s. When he served as House Minority leader Vice President and thenpresident. Exploring the american story. Watch American History tv saturdays on cspan2 and find a full schedule on your program ide or watch online any time at cspan. Org history