Transcripts For CSPAN2 Historic 20240704

Cspan now, our free mobile video app or online at cspan. Org. Well, now on American History tv, were going to talk about Historic Preservation. I want to introduce you to jordan tannenbaum, the vice chair of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. Mr. Tannenbaum, what is that organization . The Advisory Council of Historic Preservation is an independent federal agency, part of the executive branch. It was it is was created by the preservation act of 1956 and celebrated an anniversary. It is a Regulatory Agency and as we will see, have responsibilities not only in that area, but also to advise the president and congress on matters concerning preservation policy. The regulatory section is called section 106 and that is a requirement that all federal agencies have to request the to take into account the impact of their projects, of their undertakings and thats broadly construed, licensed in connection, nexus in any way, that they have to take that into account if theyre going to have an effect on a Historic Property or a potential Historic Property, is the property honor eligible for the National Register and then they have to request the comments of the Advisory Council. Give the council a reasonable opportunity to comment and thats the regulatory section and there are regs that implement that statutory requirement. Can the council on Historic Preservation shut down a project legally . No, no, the council cannot, but a citizen could. A citizen could bring suit against a federal agency claiming they had not complied with the preservation act and get a temporary restraining order and shut it down and require that the agency comply in however that could play out. But the council itself was advisory in nature. So, as long as the Council Comments are obtained, however the council may comment, the agency can accept can look at those comments, consider those comments, but they can go forward and do what they want to do. As long as the agency has complied with the requirements they did in the regs and the code of federal regulations, 36cfr, taken in the comments and undertaking, they can ultimately do what they want to do. Its when agencies dont initiate that process theyll run into trouble and theyre subject to citizen lawsuit. Lets go back to 1966. Why that year was there a Historic Preservation act passed . Yeah, it actually was an evolution. If i might digress for a little bit and go back and look at the federal governments involvement with hurricane preservation, which really starts with the Antiquities Act in 1906. That act, which is still which some of it has been replaced by other statutes, but its still good law to establish Historic Monuments and thats where we recently have actually, many people have learned about that act, but that act was resulted from a realization that at the turn of the century in 1900s, we were losing a lot of our cultural patrimony, other nations were taking it back to europe. And if you go to europe youll find excellent collections of particularly native american artifacts and then it moves along and the government began to so there was a permitting section set up and then in 1935, up something called the Historic Sites act and that set up a process to identify landmarks because we were losing those, too. And it really realized there had to be some protection and that leads in 66 to the national Historic Preservation act and that was a direct result of the growth of the interstate highway system. The dams and reservoirs that were being built and a realization that progress was destroying our Cultural Resources. And so, that led to it was actually a conference of mayors in january of 1966 which came together and they looked at the problem. We need some legislation that will protect these properties of not only national significance, but local and state. And so, an amazing time, particularly from january and then in october of the same year, in 1966, Congress Passes the national Historic Preservation act to deal with that issue. Was it bipartisan . Yes, it was, definitely was, yes. How many federal agencies to you work with . There are 24 statutory members on the Advisory Council, 24 members. Eight are private citizens like myself and then the remaining are federal agencies and they include d. O. T. , veterans administration, department of the interior, department of education and then along the line, so all the rest are all federal agencies, along with a mayor, a governor, the National Association of tribal Historic Preservation officers and the National Conference of state Historic Preservation officers. So what are some of the controversial cases that have come before the Advisory Council prior to today . Sure, sure, well, the Dakota Access pipeline i think is one that came up recently and as you might recall, involved a pipeline that would go across a waterway that was of significance to native american tribes. And that was a core permit, it was a lot of litigation. One of the things that the Advisory Council and the Historic Preservation prides itself is on encouraging consultation with native american tribes, thats a big issue these days, so, that was that has gone several ways and they the courts approved it and the courts have then reexamined the permitting, so, that was one of the controversial things. There are a number of cases, however, that demonstrate the Productive Work of the Advisory Council and would love to focus on those, too. And theyre very diverse. So you have a park, in the san diego area. You have the Space Shuttles which have been determined eligible. You have one of the last remaining black Officers Clubs at Fort Leonardwood in missouri that was saved and having been associated with this agency for almost 40 years, i take great pride and they do, too, in the way in which they have harmonized preservation of Historic Property. Its a little known story and im delighted im able to tell it today, but its a very important one. And how did you get involved in this 40 years ago . I started the summer intern, yes, right out of were you a history major . Yes, i was a history major and i wanted to work, actually, in a National Park. The only job i was offered was at the national monument. That was not my idea of a National Park. The ladies room to the left and mens room to the right. And i learned of an agency just started and were talking about to reveal my age, were talking about 1972 and the agency just really begun to hire a lot of folks. Started as a summer intern. I didnt know much about Historic Preservation, but it sounded interesting and i joined the team. There are about four people working and 40 people working with a budget of eight Million Dollars and over 8 million and then i was made permanent and i worked there for decade. And then went on to other and ive stayed involved with Historic Preservation in the military and i did a lot of work as a jag officer. I became a lawyer teaching this area and working in this area of what is called our section 106 area, the regulatory area. So when it came to the military, how did section 106, the Historic Preservation section fit in. Let me explain, the army, military, federal agency and section 106 requires, again, that all federal agencies take into account the effect of their project on a Historic Property, for the register, a reasonable opportunity to comment. So theyve got to comply. Lets look at the black Officers Club, for example. That club at Fort Leonardwood, it was built around 1942, theres actually some stone work there, interesting stone work built by prisoners of war, the italian and german prisoners of war. After the war the building was used for a variety of things. 2014 2011, excuse me, they didnt have a use for it. They thought it would be used for one purpose, but no one was interested. It began to deteriorate a little bit and there was a problem because it was owned by the military, a federal agency, by the army and they had the responsibility to maintain that because it was at that point then determined to be eligible for the National Register and thats actually the first part of this registry process, do see, do we have a Historic Property and once that was determined, then they had to figure out what are we going to do . They wanted to diminish it, that would have clearly been an adverse effect so the consultation process, which is the heart of these regulations, got all the stake holders together, including, by the way, in the Officers Club, there was a mural painted by sergeant conty, a wellknown africanamerican staff sergeant, they all came together and they decided lets figure out a way to preserve this. And its very significant and they did after a couple of years, come out with a plan. It was embedded in a memo of agreement. And that building has been saved and has been actually given an award recently. Well, lets look at a little video from the Advisory Council on Historic Preservations project at Fort Leonardwood. Building 1201 was one of the original buildings constructed in 1941 when Fort Leonardwood, missouri was established. It was a time of segregation in the u. S. Army and the building was reassigned in 1942 as the black Officers Club for the 7th engineering training group. The consulting parties were opposed to demolition of one of the last remaining world war ii era black Officers Clubs, working together, an occupant was identified and determined the building would be converted into a classroom, meeting and social space. The mural would be preserved and repairs would be made to the 1940s era stonework masonry features built by german prisoners of war. The rehabilitation of 2101 in 2018 and a Ribbon Cutting ceremony in august of 2019. The consulting parties used the process to strongly advocate to preserve the building and kind a compatible use and it shows how they can be productive assets to an Installations Mission as well as a venue to tell a cultural history and support the Larger National significance of the africanamerican military experience. Its preservation and continued use will provide countless opportunities to tell the story of africanamerican Army Officers during world war ii to future generations. Jordan tannenbaum, that project took several years. Correct. Why is that . Because the military dtdz of course, its a bureaucracy and decide do they have the funds to restore it and how would it be restored. What there are standards published by the department of the interior. They had to be met. And so actually as things go, two years is not some have taken a little bit longer than that, but they needed to get everybody on the same page, really, to get that memorandum sent in. Who are those players . Along with the federal agency, every state has a state Historic Preservation officer and that group was involved. The state was involved and then you had interestingly enough, the niece of the artist who was involved. They involved. Theres a requirement under these regs that the public is involved. If the public isnt, that could be an issue that would wind up in court because the regs clearly state that and so, army needed to find out do we have the money, what are we going to use it for. That process takes a while and then youre getting the other folks, the local Preservation Society was involved. So there are a lot of players. In the end, this process allows, sometimes, people to stop, look, listen, to rethink, to see if we can come up with a different solution than demolition or alteration. Might we come up with a creative approach and they did. And that has happened in other cases, too. A case in san diego, california, of the chicano park that i referred to, where an amazing, amazing project, highway, that where a number of wellknown muralists, latin american and mexicanamerican muralists had painted on these abuttments by the 90s, they had become they needed work, they needed restoration and the federal Highway Administration came up with money under its enhancement program, transportation enhancement to rehabilitate these murals, working with cal trans, the California Transportation Agency and they are now preserved. And the park there, chicano park is refreshed and filling the role that it has as highlighting mexicanamerican civil rights. Now, jordan tannenbaum, you mentioned several transit agencies involved in this project. Were these murals to be moved because of transportation projects . No, they had just become in need of repair, that was really, it was it was an enhancement, but a project where a property was moved very interesting, was the gayhead lighthouse in aquinna, massachusetts. What was happening there, a lighthouse owned by the coast guard was about to be washed away because the cliffs on which it had been built were eroding away. So, something had to be done and the only thing that could be done to save the lighthouse was to move it. Were talking about a 51foot, 400 ton lighthouse built in 1856. Whats going to happen here . The coast guard said, look, we are willing to transfer this to a private party if they want to maintain it, but someones got to move it and we dont have the funds to move it. So what they did and the federal process, any agency would take its perhaps and transfer to General Services administration, they did and then a local group came up with the money to move this and the lighthouse was saved thanks to the work of coast guard and the General Services administration and the local people coming together. Its a wonderful partnership. A wonderful story of how that happened. Now, you referred to that as an Advisory Council on Historic Preservation success story. Yes. What was your role throughout this project . Well, there is a criteria of adverse effect and demolition by neglect. So the coast guard by allowing nothing to happen, they cant do that, they cant allow a decision to not do anything to protect the lighthouse is still a decision so that was the undertaking and they had a responsibility to take some action. Now, they could have tried to demolish it, but they didnt. It was a landmark, the local people wanted to save it and then this Partnership Came together, but they could not allow the lighthouse that they owned at that point to just be washed away. That is not allowed, and the council managed that process. 8 million budget, 40 people, very small federal agency. Yes. How many cases come across the transit every year . Every year, there are about 5,000 section 106 cases. Now, many of them, most of them are settled at the state levels under the regs that can happen. Only the cases where theres an adverse effect and the council feels they can help in this and arrive at a good solution are they involved. So of the 5,000 that come 106 case, handling 106 cases, about 750 come to the Advisory Council. Either they elect to look at them or people ask for councils assistance and of those, probably 200 a year, 150 to 200 being worked on by that team. Now, at 40 people, not all of them are case workers, many of them do other jobs, as they as with any federal agency. So its a small compliment that has a huge, huge mandate. How large is the law area of Historic Preservation . Growing, growing. Its a new area because in many respects, this is part of the environmental movement. There are other statutes, the National Environmental policy act, that requires agencies to take into account their impact on Cultural Resources. There are a number of statutes that deal with archeology, so this is a growing area and as people realize that they, as the public, realizes that they have a place in this process, i think youre going to see more involvement, hopefully. Hopefully not more litigation, but that is there. That whole compendium of law has been growing over the years, definitely, definitely. Is your position a political position . Yes, it is. How so . I was presented by president obama and one of the eight citizen members of the council in 2016, and i was reappointed this past june and made the vicechairman of the council for another term. So i will be serving until 2025. We do have a fulltime so theres no chairman at the moment. I am the acting chairman, but a fulltime chairman is working her way through the process. Sara bronen is her name and hopefully taking over sometime in 2022. Like other regulatory agencies is there requirement for x number of minority party, in this case, the republicans and majority party, the democrats . No, there is not, there is not. So you could name eight from one party in this case. Yes, absolutely. Is Historic Preservation political though . What are some of the political issues that you get into . You know, there are political issues i think in terms of some of the funding. I think that that is involved. The whole area of the preservation. Our Mission Statement is that we promote the preservation, the enhancement and the sustainable use of this countrys diverse Cultural Resources, and not everyone agrees with that, and if you dont agree with that, if you want to put in do some drilling on federal land and theres some petroglyphs, like in utah, you will go political and youll get your support to be able to do that, but again, we dont look at preservation as thwarting progress, its really part of progress. Explain Nine Mile Canyon. Nine mile canyon involved the bureau of land management, blm, an Energy Company that wanted to do some drilling in this area. This area also has an amazing collection of rock art, its in utah, as i said, and there are 10,000 areas where this rock art exists and it includes about 100,000 individual figures. The issue there was that, yes, there could be blm was willing to give permits to the federal undertaking was a permit to do some mining, some natural gas platforms, but they wanted to make sure that they needed to make sure that the Historic Properties were properly treated. The damage from trucks going in, the roads were just dirt roads, and the dust and particles that that created, it was destroying the rock art and so they sat down it was an undertaking, giving the permit and the Advisory Council was involved and they came up with a memo of agreement where they built a hard surface road, avoided the dust and were able to protect the rock art and thats the solution in the Nine Mile Canyon and its worked very, very well. Another success story. An important area for tribal rights for sure. And again, here is some video provided by the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. The oil and Gas Resources happened to fall within an area that also has incredible resources, water resources, air resources, plants, vegetation and of course, culture resources. Nine mile canyon is a world renown outdoor gallery of rock arts. It has almost 10,000 rock art sites that have been recorded in the area. Archaeologists dont really know why the concentration of rock art in Nine Mile Canyon exists the way it does, but Nine Mile Canyon being that tributary of the green river through the plateau makes it somewhat of a natural corridor between the basin in the north and Castle Valley down here in the south. So, people have been transecting through that canyon for at least 10,000 years moving between the lowlands here and the basin up north. There were 18 parties involved in drafting the programmatic agreement between the plateau and development. Three of the parties were signatories necessary to creating the agreement. Blm, the utah Preservation Office and the achp. There were a lot of stipulations included in the plateau pa. Generally the stipulations outlined a process for identifying Historic Properties. As the project went forward and it was staged. There were also stipulations that set forth ways of minimizing and avoiding known Historic Properties and mitigating effects to Historic Properties. Some of the identification stipulations included literature searches, different types of surveys and monitoring. There was also a study to assess the effects of dust on the rock art. The controversy with the road, theres no simple solution. It took a lot of effort from the blm. The county, its roads departments, and as well as the consulting parties on the pa to try and come up with a plan that would work and it involved doing numerous things such as hiring rock art conservators to come out and clean up some of the sites. To conduct studies on what effects the salts that theyre using, and the dust presence was actually having on the rock art and we kind of moved on from there and it was decided that paving the road would be the better solution. One thing to remember is the national Historic Preservation act, section 106 as we call it shorthand is a process. Its the steps and the process that are important to follow through with, its not the end result. We realize that we should have started earlier talking to these consulting parties and get their input because it would have gone a lot smoother and thats been one of the things at least from the Washington Office weve argued for tribes and consulting parties since then, we need to involve people earlier on in the process and not wait until decisions are being made because some of those decisions, theyre going to say, well, what . You may not have the legal backup to support that, if you havent involved the groups early on. And youre watching American History tv and were talking with jordan tannenbaum, who is the acting vice chair of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. Were talking about Historic Preservation efforts in the United States. Are states active in this as well . Yes. They have to be. Theyre required to be. So you have 50 state agencies, plus the federal agency, plus citizens . And thats why the National Conference of state Historic Preservation offices, the Umbrella Organization is a member of the Advisory Council and why the every state and every territory, by the way, territories have Historic Preservation officers as well, they must be involved in the process and they know their resource their states resources better than anyone and they are vital, vitally important in this section 106 progress process that weve been talking about. 106 is . A part of the National Preservation act of 1966. It is the regulatory section of that statute and it has its requirement, just a paragraph, to in summary, to require that requires that federal agencies take into account the undertaking on Historic Properties, defined as properties on or eligible for the National Register of Historic Places and that they afford the Advisory Council in Historic Preservation, a reasonable opportunity to comment. It has been clarified by regs and the code of federal regulations, thats 106. Given what we know about lady bird johnsons proclivities, was she supportive of the National Hurricane preservation . Was she active in promoting it . Absolutely. We know that. It was signed into law in 1966, her husband would have been president and yes, very much, very supportive of that, as was another agency i know she was active in the National Trust for Historic Preservation and theyre a member of the Advisory Council. How is their work different from yours . Well, theyre a nationwide Membership Organization and so we are not membership. We are federal agency and thats the major difference. Were a federal agency. They are a Member Organization but a nonprofit. Nonprofit. And they have a charter. Its from the government in 1949 and their role has changed over or their approach, their orientation has changed over the years, but theyre a very important partner, too, in the work that were doing and they have a number of actually worked for them for a part of my career for a number of years, so, im pretty familiar with the work that they do and theyre an important member of our team. Now, you mentioned early on in our discussion that Environmental Issues are very important when it comes to Historic Press are evaluation. Yeah, yes. We consider the cultural environment part of the environmental movement. In fact, as the acting chairman of the council at this point i have set up a task force to deal with Climate Change and this focuses directly on our native american stripes, our native american citizens who have a direct connection with the National Features in our country and to them, for them, these are very significant. Theyre not just a river, its a part of their culture, its a part of their values and their religion. So, this is and all of the existing environmental umbrella, environmental statutes deal with Cultural Resources now. Jordan tannenbaum, what do you do with a used Space Shuttle . Thank you for asking. What we do with them is that we preserve them. We nominate to the National Register, thats one of the categories of properties that can go on the National Register, along with districts, structures, sites, and in the case of the shuttles, all three of them, the discovery and company that were remaining, and that were at some point ready to be accessed, we save them, we documented them and we made sure that they would be protected and they are now at three remaining shuttles are now in california, its the Johnson Space center in houston, and in florida, Kennedy Space center in a museum and interpreted and we saved them because they were a part of our cultural patrimony, the rockets, everything, was recorded and saved. Who does the actual recording and chronicling . Let me just say that the agency involved there was nasa, federal agency, and they had responsibility, they owned them. So the agency that does the recording is a there are two agencies that do recording like this, one is called the historic American Engineering record and the other is called the Historic Building survey and theyre both National Park entities created by the Historic Sites act which i mentioned early on. Which passed in 1966. Mr. Tannenbaum, how many locations, structures, et cetera, are on the National Register and when was that part of the 1966 act as well . Yes, it was. What it did was, that register was it came into existential in the Historic Sites act which was also created agencies, but it only dealt with National Properties of national significance, what we call National Historic landmarks. It took the national Historic Preservation act of 1966 to say were going to broaden that definition to include properties of state and local significance. So, yeah, it didnt create it, but it did expand the National Register of Historic Places. In terms of how many are on the National Register, et cetera somewhere probably around 150,000. Now, keep in mind. 150,000. Yes, but keep in mind, thats not just one property, that could be a district with 500 properties. So, thats one metric. The other metric thats important is properties that are eligible for the register that meet the register criteria. Theyre set up by the National Park service. That is could be an infinite number, hundreds of thousands and they get protection of section. I once lived in a neighborhood that had National Historic status. What does that mean . It means that youre depending what the use of the properties there, might be eligible for tax benefits. It could be, certainly might enhance the value of your property, and it has, it would in our area, we know old town alexandria, georgetown, all huge historic districts, thats important. In addition, there are theres Technical Assistance you can get from the National Park service, rehabilitate, along with possible grants, that its a small grant program, but theyre available as well so there are a lot of advantages to being on the National Register of Historic Places. Of course, then on that, you have overlaid local ordinances, right . Sometimes theyre actually, i think in many cases theyre actually more restrictive than being on the National Register of Historic Places. That doesnt do anything to your property rights. Speaking now as a lawyer, your property is on the National Register. As far as im concerned, theres everything that benefits it. The only time that theres a restriction is if theres a federal undertaking that in some way might have an effect on your property and then this process that weve been talking about comes into play. That doesnt happen that often, but that thats how it could there could be some impact. Mr. Tannenbaum, is this a fulltime job for you or do you have other activities here in washington . Yes, i have other activities. I am this is not a fulltime job. Theres vicechairman, chairman, that is a fulltime job, im currently the chief and have been for the past 17 years, chief officers for the United States Holocaust Memorial museum here in town and thats my fulltime job for sure. Is there a section 106 story with the Holocaust Museum . There is. The building i work in, the ross building, part of the auditors complex, its an interesting story, part of that bureau printing and engraving complex down there. Right. When they were building the Holocaust Museum they couldnt use several of the existing buildings that were there, but they want today say they could use the ross building. It was had a different name at that point. I actually worked on this project. When i worked for the Advisory Council from 72 to 82 and so that building is on the National Register, it was part of a memo of agreement that saved the building and said it would be rehabilitated and adaptively used and i worked in that building. So, yes, theres a very personal connection that i have to that particular structure. What does the chief Development Officer do, raise money . You bet, were in a billion Dollar Campaign and we are closing in on our goal of a billion dollars. As i sit here speaking with you this morning, were at 992 Million Dollars. And what are you going to do with that money . The money that is being raised for all of our programs, the money goes to a conservation facility that we built in maryland and dedicated a couple of years ago. Are you still getting in artifacts . Yes. And we are actively searching for artifacts and the window is closing as the survivors pass and the information where they are goes, yes, were getting in artifacts, a huge collection that is most of its stored in maryland, cha pell center named after the family that gave the lead gift for that. And how many hours week do you spend on the Advisory Council . Now . Well, now its a little unusual because as i said im the acting chairman so i probably spend about, and this is all usually burning the midnight oil, spending about 20 hours a week, 15 to 20 hours a week on a variety of things. I have to review the memos of agreement coming in that need to be signed, i have some responsibilities as managing the staff and doing some reviews, i have responsibilities to speak and to share information about the council as im doing this morning. So, yeah, its a big job and when the fulltime chairman arrives, i will welcome her with open arms. [laughter] but it has been a very enjoyable experience. And joining us on American History tv is the acting chair and vice chair of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, jordan tannenbaum. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much. A pleasure, a pleasure. Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History tv documents americas story and on sundays, book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan2 comes from these Television Companies and more, including buckeye broadband buckeye broadband along with these Television Companies supports cspan2 as a public service. American history tv saturdays on cspan2. Exploring the people and events that tell the american story. At 6 p. M. Eastern, librarian of congress carla haden hosts a conversation marking president trumans executive order 9981 prohibiting discrimination in the u. S. Military. 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