Transcripts For CSPAN2 Victoria 20240704

Then i think if you were a doctor or a nurse you could get a car and that was it, five years or so. Okay. Thank you so very much. I so appreciate your time. Thankim gray brecon. Im founder and project scholar of the living new deal, which is sort of nominally based in the bay, although now we are spreading out and it began actually about 15 years ago. I was to write a book about what the wpa did in california, and then you fall down this rabbit hole and you find that theres everything else. And its a its a universe. So now what we are is a National Team that is identifying, mapping and interpreting the physical legacy of, the new deal, which is absolutely colossal. Its all around us. Its indispensable, able, but we dont see it. And thats accidental. So what were doing, we have a very active chapter in new york city, some of whom are here today. And what were doing is excavating a lost civilization. Its what i call the lost ethical language of new deal, public works. These objects which are everywhere, are trying to speak to us in a language which we have been persuaded to forget. And the effort to erase the roosevelt legacy. About april 12, 1945, when roosevelt safely dead and they could to do that. So thats what were trying to do. And we established a few years ago a prize, the best book on roosevelt or the new deal out of a of books being published year theres we a distinguished panel and the awardee gets a thousand books but the great honor of having the and the living new deal prize are speaker today who will introduce the awardee is Kimberley Johnson who is of graduate studies at the department of social and cultural analysis at and she will introduce victoria wolcott who is this years. Thank you very much. Hi thank you all for coming. It is my huge pleasure to award this best book award to victoria for her book heres the book its available living in the future utopianism and the Long Civil Rights Movement. The committee was really impressed about the quality and scope and that the depth of this book, it was a really strong in an overall pool of very very strong books and i think what we were struck by was, i think to pick up on gregs point, the ethical components that we often think about the new deal is a political system where Economic System but it really was i think in very careful and caring that walcott presents it. It really is a time where people are trying to figure out how can we make the world better for us . And i found the book incredibly inspiring. So im not going to talk a lot because i think patricia say more, but the trophy could come up and mason mason williams, who is an assistant professor at williams college, was also on the Book Committee at the core committee. And it is our pleasure to award to victoria the best book award, one of the major. Things think i can get perspective as we. Thank you so much this is such a huge honor to receive that award and i to thank the committee for reading all the books and for all the work that theyve put into this really vibrant, wonderful and clifford lab and the staff here at the fdr library and museum. So im going to talk a little bit about the book today. Im going to try to make some local connections to to hyde park. This will be a little bit less of roosevelt centered than some of the talks youve heard. But as ken kimberly was suggesting, the of ideas that i discuss, this utopian book project that very much resonate in the new deal. The administration, particularly in the thought of Eleanor Roosevelt, but the roosevelts were generally. So im just going to Say Something very about the book and then im going to talk about some sort of specific threads that kind of go through it. This is a book that examines utopian communities and groups that drew from utopian ideas from roughly the 1920s through the 19 or early 1960 piece, with examining issues of how they impacted the post 1955 civil rights movement. And im going to talk about three general categories. One is that really pull my examples together, one category is interracial ism. The second is nonviolence, and the third is cooperatives. But before i do that, i want to talk about one little thread just to give you a of my methodology when writing this book and how utopia thought connects disparate groups and ideas and provides fuel, the Long Civil Rights Movement and this is this thread is about novel a utopian novel published in 1888 by the american journalist Edward Bellamy. Oh, very widely popular, a utopian novel. This is a novel which the julian west wakes up in the year 2000 to discover that the United States has become a socialist utopia and he really bellamys work really epitomize is the position of a group known as socialist. And this in contrast to the scientific socialism of marx and engels. And so the utopian socialist believed that you could create the socialist utopia without violent struggle and without class conflicts makes what makes it more utopian. Now, bellamys novel has really nothing to say about race, so the question is why is it important for my story . Let me just talk a little bit about that right after the novel was published, again, hugely popular, you had this creation of were called nationalist clubs and these nationalist clubs, which by 1892 there was 150 of these clubs and they tried to kind of work on ideas and plans to create the utopia that bellamy talks about in his novel, they were very influential in the populist movement in the 1890s, but the progressive era, the early 20th century. And although bellamy did not believe in labor because they created too much conflict, his work actually was hugely in the labor of the early 20th century, particularly unionism and Workers Education, which i talk about actually in the first chapter of, the book. So fast forward to the thirties, which is of course the decade that we love here. And bellamys ideas experienced a real revival in the 1930s, which, like the late 19th century in which he was writing, was another period of economic distress and class conflict. And his ideas were particularly important in the state of california which was a hotbed utopianism in the early 20th century. The historian robert klein claims that between 1850 and 1950, california witnessed the formation of a larger number of utopian colonies than any other state in the union many of these were socialist utopian communities, and they also heavily influenced by a form of religious practice called theosophy, which kind of combines kind of western religion with eastern religion. Now, one individual who particularly was influenced by bellini was the journalist upton sinclair. And as you may know, in 1934, he ran governor of california in the epic the end poverty in california. And he actually wrote a utopian novel to launch his campaign. This is what california is going to look like if im governor. Essentially, he was influenced by the large scale public works programs depicted in bellamys, the redistribution of resources, and also the importance of cooperative aves, which ill talk a little bit more about in a bit. So one group of sinclair support ers was called the utopian society of america. Again, very by bellamy. It was founded in angeles in 1933. It an interracial organization that again pulled together ideas about socialism and also of theosophy which had been drawn from some of these eastern religious ideas believed this notion of universal brotherhood. So as a result the utopian society opposed segregate and worked actively for anti discrimination legislation. They met in secret, but they also had these big kind of rallies and performances and these included, according to one of the founders, they epitomized mans struggle for Economic Security and general wellbeing, tracing the progress of that struggle up through past and looking into the near future for the attainment of its goal. And again, this idea of evolutionary versus path to socialism. And by 1934, at the height of the epic campaign, they claim to have 600,000 members. But again, theres no membership, a little hard to actually verify that. So sinclair, as im sure know lost his election. Thats its whole story unto itself and the utopian society essentially dismantles after that loss but some of the movements followers gravitated to a really Important Organization for my book, the Father Divine Peace Mission. And i actually found that they made up the largest white constituency of that group and ill talk a little bit more about Father Divine a little bit later, but just note here, it was the most successful utopian community in the 20th century. It was fully and economically prosperous, and it was led by this charismatic africanamerican leader, Father Divine, who borrowed from bellamys teachings and from theosophy as well. The number of Peace Missions are the extensions essentially in california reach 20 by 1935. Largest concentration outside of new york state and. As roy owens, a White Californian follower, noted Father Divines organization furnished, religiously inclined utopia ins a familiar theology that contained political concepts resonant with their past affiliations. So these idealistic white utopians join with their africanamerican counterparts to develop the Peace Mission and communal life nationwide and indeed international aid. In addition, their extensive cooperative enterprises, the interracial Peace Mission, registered integrated public accommodation and carried out acts of non violent direct action. I have one more story about. The novel looking backward to tell. So this is a story about a young africanamerican at midcentury. She grew up in alabama and she attended a majority white progressive school, Antioch College in ohio in 1946. While there became active in civil rights organizations. And that activist Bayard Rustin. Times in 1948. She also worked with Henry Wallace campaign for the presidency, attending the Progressive Party Convention Year musically gifted, she had actually performed with paul robeson. She attended the new england conservatory of music in boston in 1951. While there, the spring of 1952, she gave a book, a seminary student who had befriended Martin Luther king jr. The book was Edward Bellamys 1988 utopian novel looking. She inscribed gift in the book, she says, dear martin, i should be interested to know your reaction to bellamys predictions about our society. In some ways it is rather encouraging to see how our social order has since bellamys time, there is still hope for the future, lest we become too impatient. King responded. In a long two months later, he says, quote, i welcome the book because much of its content is in line with my basic ideas. I imagine you already know that i am much more socialistic in my economic theory than Capital Stock today. Capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes from the masses to luxuries to the classes, which is phrase he uses throughout his career. He finishes his letter with this basic thesis. I would concur. I would certainly welcome the day to come when there will be a nationalization of industry let us continue to hope, work, pray that in the future we live to see a wallis a better distribution wealth and a brotherhood that transcends race or color. This is the gospel that i will preach the world at this point. I must thank a million times for introducing me to such a stimulating book. You sweet and thoughtful, indeed. So coretta gives martin essentially this gift of utopia, and he uses bellamys words actually again, and other speeches leading up to the sort of the mass part of civil rights movement. So i chose the bellamy example because of what it reveals about king, but i could have done something similar with influence of robert owens ideas about the shakers the influence of anarchism, etc. To talk about this longer history. So what i hope my book accomplishes is the weaving of these threads together to form a more cohesive narrative about utopia. So what i mean when i say utopia, let me just briefly do some definitions here and i should say theres a voluminous amount of social political theory on utopia, but as many of you probably know, that term is coined by. Sir thomas moore in 1516. There are, of course other origins of it as well. But he combines the greek word for good place eu utopia with you, meaning no place. Thats from its inception, utopias have been considered fantastical and out of reach. A waste time. But this also suggests a kind of playfulness and an imagination and i think this is really important. So for me alignment power sergeants definition of utopianism as form of quote social dreaming that allows communities to envision a radically Different Society from the one in which the dreamers lives is very, very helpful. In a similar vein, a very important historian, robin d. G. Kelly, has written about what he calls freedom dreams. He says, i have come to realize that. Once we strip radical social movements to their bare essence and understand the collective desires of people in motion, freedom and love lay at the very heart of the matter. But just as our dreams reflect, images and patterns of our waking lives freedom dreams draw from past utopian experimentations. So the activists i study formed actual intentional like the father devine movement, but they also draw from utopian ideas and practices that, you see, particularly in something that social scientists call pre figurative. And this is another really important term. Those engaged in prefigured did politics are trying to quite literally create the world that they want to live in right their demanding immediate change so their emphasis is always on the means rather than the ends. So these are folks who tend to live communally tend to emphasize egalitarian ethics as well. And tend to associate utopianism with either the antebellum period of the early 19th century or maybe with the sixties and seventies with the commu koons and that kind of countercultural moment. But there is actually a lot of sort of mid 20th century utopian history, often overlooked and part of that is because the twin of fascism and stalinism in the particularly and fifties suggested utopian thinking was dangerous works, such as Arthur Schlesinger is the vital center daniel bells the end of ideology and judith scars after utopia, as well as Hannah Arendt and adorno and some others as well, basically argued that utopian thinking had led to the urge to construct grand designs for the political future of mankind. No disclosure is gone the last vestiges. If faith required for such an enterprise have vanished. And these thinkers often mischaracterized midcentury radical pacifism, which is really the milieu im discussing here, in which cooperation, not domination was was the emphasis. Indeed, most radical pacifists were deeply critical of the soviet union and among the first to speak out about the dangers of fascism. In addition, utopian have been part of a longer commentary tradition rather than a dominion in a state. And there is a very strong strand of anarchism among, these groups as well, which im happy to address. So new left in pre figurative political movements helped ameliorate these critiques. But of course comes with its own baggage as well so now i want to shift to these three categories i mentioned at the outset just to kind of unpack a little bit. And the first category is that interracial ism which connected of these groups. And as i was, i had a full draft of the book and i realized that i was unhappy with the way that interracial ism has been sort of highlighted and discussed in much of the historiography. So i wanted to break it down more. So i created these three categories of interracial ism, which i think are helpful. The first one is what i call liberal interracial ism. This is basically racial mixing among, educated elites that provide crucial intellectual and physical spaces to discuss racial equality. This often stops short social equality and calls education moral suasion and rather than immediate kinds of change. But it does play, i think, a really crucial role in this broader history. Liberal internationalism, for example created spaces, for social change, physical houses and churches in, major cities and civil rights activists often got their feet wet in these spaces moving on to more radical activities. The second category is labor ism, which of course is highly for the new deal era class movements to create Strategic Allied alliances across racial lines. Communist party, socialist party labor unions, first generated by progressive unions such as the ill get you International Ladies Garment Workers Union and propagated through Workers Education, labor racialism, elevated racial cooperation even among the working classes as integral to a more egalitarian future. Unionization was the central goal, but it also called often for gender and racial equality, as well as promoting cooperatives. Theres sometimes an ambivalent attitude towards nonviolence with this group, its still very significant. Let me just give you a quote from fania kahn from 1921. So she was a jewish labor activist who was important in the formation, Workers Education. And she says it has always been our conviction that the Labor Movement stands, consciously or unconsciously for the reconstruction of society it, strives toward a new life, dreams of a world where economic and social justice will prevail for the welfare, mankind will be the aim of all activity, where our society will be organized, a cooperative commonwealth, and where love, friendship and, fellowship will replace selfishness. So this, for example, the brookwood college. Many of you probably arent familiar with that particular organizer, but then as well as the Highlander Folk School. But you may be more familiar with a really good examples of the product of this labor interracial ism. And then the third category is utopian internationalism, an ideology or set of practices that both envisions and lives a future of full racial equality and brotherhood. So there that that pre figurative piece again these are interracial groups communally and cooperatively and engage in nonviolent direct action to change society. These are basically a pre Figurative Movement calling for immediate change. So here, obviously the farther Divine Movement is is an excellent example, but also the congress of racial equality, which ill say a little bit more. And then when you get to 1960, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee as well, so the third next category to discuss here is the question of nonvoting violence and how this kind of permeates this utopian thought. The book culminates with the use of nonviolent direct action initially by congress of racial equality and then taken up by later civil rights activists, including course king and much of history has been written about by peace studies, religious studies, authors. But work emphasizes some unexpected connections are often overlooked. So let me just something about the transmission of gandhian ideas to the american context for this so black had been covering gandhi in the 1920s really throughout the beginning his activist career. And in 1929 w. E. B. Dubois invite gandhi to publish a message in crisis with an introduction that him, quote, the greatest colored man in the world in the short gandhi told black leaders, let us realize that the future is those who would be truthful, pure and loving. Now a key figure in this transmission is also a theologian, howard thurman, whos recently gotten more attention, which is a good thing. Howard thurman in 1935 was given the opportunity. The ymca student christian movement, great example of liberal internationalism to travel to south asia with his wife and another africanamerican couple. The highlight of the trip, a three hour visit with gandhi at, his retreat in bardoli, india. Part of that conversation was the oft repeated message by gandhi. It will it may be through the that the unadulterated message of nonviolence since will be delivered to the world. Thurman also had a mystical experience at the khyber pass, actually, this this particular travel, where he had a vision of a religious fellowship that would be capable of cutting across racial barriers. In 1944, he made that vision a reality by accepting leadership at the San Francisco church for the fellowship of all peoples and in the interim thurman spoke widely of gandhi particularly at the fellowship house in philadelphia. He also taught many of the leading activists of the movement through his work at howard pauli murray, james farmer and he also became a close friend of Martin Luther king jr who kept a copy of his most famous book jesus and the disinherited in his pocket throughout his movement activity. Now, for king, his introduction to gandhi, according his memoir, stride toward freedom, actually happens at the philadel phia fellowship house in 1950. Hes there to see a speech by mordecai johnson, whos president of howard. And then king writes about this experience. His message was so profound and electrified mine that i left the meeting about half dozen books on gandhis life and thurman also was instrumental in working the founders of the congress of racial equality, Bayard Rustin, james farmer, george, who, after 1942 immediately began actually essentially write the book the instruction manual too. How to use nonviolent direct action in the us context and an enormously successful on desegregation efforts outside of the deep south, which is been overlooked. So the last thing i want to talk about, and this is more related to the farther Divine Movement is the importance of cooperatives in all of these various kinds of organizations cooperatives are a solution to rampant capitalism, but also suggest a larger kind of of living. And this has a very long history, of course, in the u. S. Robert, americas midcentury owen, who created a utopian in antebellum period began to spread the idea what was called the Rochdale Cooperative system, which was founded in 1844 by a group of weavers who, formed the Rochdale Society of equitable pioneers. They drew up a set of principles, allowed their cooperative to be replicated internationally. And almost every cooperative, including the one where i live, still, those basic principles. So these were voluntary groups refused to discriminate in their membership. They democratic cooperatives with members investing equally and receiving dividends based on their purchases. Workers founded the First American cooperatives based on these rules in 1863 and they really proliferated throughout the late 19th century. And this is very influential to Edward Bellamy when hes his utopian novel. But this is also absolutely central in the Survival Strategies of africanamericans after emancipation. You can imagine a that has very little in terms of material wealth that cooperate would be key in the years following emancipation freed people formed what they called union leagues, which were basically what one historian calls these hatcheries of radical economic experiments. One good example is my own value. Mississippi, which is an all black town modeled the utopian ideas of robert owen, and that actually serves as a refuge later in the 20th century for civil rights activists, progressive workers and folk schools actively pursued cooperatives, including the Brookwood Labor College and the Highlander Folk School and all of the major, basically the major black leaders in the early century also wrote extensively about this. W. E. B. Dubois, george schuyler, ella baker, her first activist job working on, and a Philip Randolph all promoted, both consumer and producer cooperatives. But again, it was during the Great Depression that the cooperative movement was at its strongest. And let me just read you a quote from an africanamerican, althea washington, talking about the sort of high point, the cooperative movement is based on the deep and abiding principles of honesty, justice, equality, brotherhood and the cooperative movement is, interfaith inter class and interface. Therefore, it gives us that common meeting ground which produces the best setting for working together. So one of the examples i talk about in the book is Delta Cooperative farm, which actually very influential for. The the kinds of Farm Security administration cooperatives that were developed in the new deal administration. And im happy talk a little bit more about that. If people interested. But the best example of the success of cooperatives in this movements is indeed the Father Divine example. So father utopianism had, some commonalities with the other groups that i look like both during his lifetime and the latter and the later work. The sociologist and historians. But he also considered by many he was dismissed by many as a quote cult leader and a charlatan and i should just take a moment say that jill watts whos about to give a talk this i believe its her first book is on Father Divine and it was enormously helpful for me. So i urge you to check that book out as well. So his religious movement is indeed significant and successful for his network of urban and rural cooperatives thrived into the 1950s. The Peace Mission movement drew from multiple legacies. The entrepreneurship promoted by t washington and white socialist cooperatives as yano del rio, but divines religious teachings are an amalgamation of certain white protestant beliefs, most importantly new thought, and the africanamerican prophetic tradition. These beliefs led to profoundly disruptive politics as divine preached that all humans across race and gender were fully equal and should live this reality in interracial homes and communities. Divinity who enacted these beliefs challenge racial mores from new york to california. So Father Divine was born george baker. He was born outside baltimore. He becomes itinerant preacher in the early 20th century and begins the 1920s. Hes moved to brooklyn and started this sort of communal fellowship and began to get some followers in the 1920s. And he also begins to purchase properties in the 1920s, including on long, often in white communities, which is very interesting, but its really the 1930s where his movement flourishes, the Great Depression, when the kinds free banquets that he puts on and the low cost goods are very, very popular among people who are suffering economically by the mid 1930s, Peace Mission was the largest realty holder in harlem with three apartment houses, nine private houses, 15 to 20 apartments with meeting halls, 25 restaurants, six groceries, ten barbershops, cleaning stores. He also has the traveling businesses, wagons and a whole business. So why are they so successful . There was, again, lots of charges of here, but theres also ways in which cooperatives work really effectively during periods of economic downturn, theyre charging very low prices below market prices in their restaurants. Also rents in apartment buildings. And so theyre affordable for people who are struggling. Right. They also its also this is true kind of throughout utopian history, quite economical to live communally, to share all of your resources if youre part of this this movement of the Divine Movement, theres no alcohol, theres no lavish parties. So theres a way of kind of savings there as well. Simple living. They also used only cash, did not use banks in any kind of way. So they were able to buy property. They would show up with bags, cash, and they would usually send their white members to go and purchase the properties and so that you know obviously if youre a Property Owner youre to be interested in that kind of revenue very quickly as well well. So this gets us to some local history, which is the Promised Land, which is right here across the river from hyde park. So father devine sent thousands urban refugees to his successful Agriculture Cooperative in Ulster County. And this is he chose as Ulster County because about its about 100 miles north on the hudson river harlem. So its easy to reach steamboat or car and. He also chose it deliberately because its an entirely white or overwhelmingly white community. And for all of his, he wants to purchase them in areas that are all white so that he can integrate them. In total, theres 30 communities in the Promised Land, 2300 People Living in them. The last one was sold in 1985. These properties that were mostly run by women, many of them were migrants from the south and they had some experiment, experience. So they knew how to raise livestock and how to raise agriculture. And often this fresh food was then used in the large banquet halls that he ran in harlem elsewhere. So a kind of farm to table sort of movement. The New York Times reports in 1939. And this gives you a sense of how impressed people were by the promised quote in this Huge Community that has facilities for feeding and lodging perhaps 10,000 persons at one time were no person smoke, drink or curse. There are farms resort country clubs, estates, scores of houses and dormitories, all manner of restaurants, stores gasoline stations, tailor shops, barber shops garages, and even two large docks with boat houses on the hudson river capable of accommodate the largest excursion steamers and the recreation pieces in here. Because this is a period in which africanamericans did not have access to recreational spaces and thats something to keep in mind. So to kind of wind up here the farther Divine Movements pre figurative politics touched many thousands of black and white members in ways that other black leaders could only dream of as observer, harris reported, quote, farther divine followers get more immediate satisfaction from the way leader attacks discriminatory patterns than the followers of more down to earth leaders can ever get from their as unquote. It is difficult to evaluate the full impact of this work, although the economic value of divines cooperatives and the food and lodging provided are evident and the ability travel with access to pools and beaches for africanamericans was a profound of freedom. The farther Divine Movement provided religio racial identities outside of the strictures american racial, racial mores. They changed their names, for example, for africanamerican fans, it offered heaven on earth and ample opportunities to express the political, social, economic ambitions of its followers. And although Father Divine was indisputable, its charismatic leader, black women, made up the majority of divine knights, maintaining scores of urban and rural cooperatives and sharing Decision Making power. For all these reasons, this religious movement, once viewed as marginal, should be placed in our narrative, along with civil rights movement. So overall, my work seeks to trace a Common Thread through multiple organizations and practices that have been largely overlooked in the current historiography of movement. It is a thread has been overlooked because of the importance of of interracial ism is often dismissed and because the relatively small size of the movement versus, the Mass Movement of the 1960s. But the activists by corps and Fellowship Houses and went on to train civic and antiwar protesters during the sixties. By living in the future, they helped enact that future, however imperfect. Thank you. So if you like to ask question, youll need to come to the microphone. Please please. Anybody. To talk ties together. Lot of stuff ive been thinking about and i havent read bellamy for it since school. I think so. Im so glad its actually not that great a read. I know its going to say that. I remember, but i was just wondering if the ideas of john ruskin and William Morris played any role here in the United States. Yeah, so i am actually live in buffalo and just South Buffalo is the roycroft, which is part of the arts and Crafts Movement that that youre referring to. There. And so that really does take off in that late 19th, early century, theres another community which im not going to remember the name of in new york state as well. Thats theres a kind of, you know, like the men grow their hair long and. Theyre wearing like homemade dresses. Its like the 1960s, but its like 1908. So its a really kind of fasting counterculture and. They often had progressive politics, but in the case of the roycroft movement, they were not for example, working to kind of create interracial that was not they were interested in suffrage and some other kind of forms of feminist politics but kind of less interested in race. But certainly that kind of counterculture runs through these utopian communities more broadly. And a lot of the california ones also would have had aspects of that. Yeah yeah, the questions. So i was mentioning this before Father Divine, you know, did have a correspondence with Eleanor Roosevelt. I mean, obviously they all knew that they were neighbors. And he loved the fact that his one of the big manor houses is right across from hyde park. And he could look over and all of his followers could look over, see hyde park. But he tried to purchase the property next to hyde park from some. So this this individual whose name now escapes me, whos going to sell it to the father Design Movement was an anti roosevelt anti new deal figure so he thought this would just anger the roosevelts so father devine Eleanor Roosevelt correspond and eleanor is like its totally fine youre welcome to buy the property. I dont mind having africanamerican neighbors. So there is a little bit of an exchange there. But following the sort of anarchist piece, father devine was opposed to the new deal. He was opposed to all forms of welfare he was opposed to banks. He many kind of communitarian and there is a strong tradition of that in this history wanted be separate from the state so that thats kind of a complicated piece of of some of this as well. Any other questions questions thank you for your i was wondering in regards to not race paganism and or lgbt aspects of utopianism, you talk about any threats against feminism research or projects in the future. Mm hmm. Words are new directions of that such a important question. And in terms of disability, one of the things i think about is, again, in the father Design Movement, that was something that he was focused on in the sense he said, you are eating good food, you are not drinking alcohol, you are now free from that. So a lot of the for example, theres testimony from africanamerican women who had been domestic servants and been constant. Lee harassed and just constantly in fear. And so they testify that being part of this movement, living a clean life know freed them of illness. And there are some problematic aspects that right thats thats definitely some problematic access to this idea of faith healing but they do talk their physical health quite a lot and similarly with Workers Education movement, one of the things that moves me so much about that movement is social. This idea of unionism, yes, theyre organizing labor unions to get higher wages, but they care about peoples wellbeing. So they create these kind of communities often areas like around here where theyll bring immigrant workers and sometimes black workers as well to swim, to relax to eat good, healthy food, to be in the open air. So there are sort of aspects of that kind of social unionism, which i think are really, really fascinating in terms of the lgbtq piece. Such a great question. Of course, were all with the struggles of Bayard Rustin in the movement, and hes at the center of a lot of what i talk about in this book so i do wonder whether the fact that is actually open about his sexuality is something that he feels at least more possibility because he is hes going from ashram to fellowship house like hes going to all these kind of communal spaces. But thats a little bit speculation. My part in the farther Divine Movement they often not often but sometimes the women when they change their names took male names and. The men when they changed their names would sometimes take names. And there was definite blending, especially at the height, the movement that those kinds of gender roles, which i find really fascinating, too. Yeah. Is there any continuity between Father Divine and Cecil Williams and glide church in San Francisco . You know, im not sure there might be a connection. I did not. I did not go down that particular rather hill. So i dont know for sure thats a connection i write, you know, a fair amount about the about the howard thurmonds interracial into domination church the all Peoples Church in San Francisco which kind of created offshoot churches in various places around the country as part of kind of this idea of liberal interracial ism and how important that was but it would be interesting to see see those connections there is unfortunately a jim jones connection for the peoples temple. This is after Father Divine has passed away and his wife, second wife, was running, you know, running what was left of the Peace Mission. And and jones shows up this like this is in the early seventies or late sixties and basically tries to recruit of his all the followers that are still there into the peoples temple because there are some overlaps in their kind of ideology and religious beliefs and some of do go and join the peoples temple. But most of them stay faithful. So theres a there is an interesting religious history about the christian left, which there are some good no new books on, but its still an understudied area. Yeah. Any other. Questions. So if anybody is in he lives if you could try to work on getting Promised Land historic markers put up that would be great because theres theres really its all been obliterated so yeah thats well theres a whole of different buildings but the biggest where the steamboats would come up to the dock my understanding is. Thats right across the river and i havent done a full exploration of this. There is a local carleton, maybe its his name, aib, who a wonderful book on the Promised Land filled with photographs. So i think hes done most work trying to this this really incredible set of communities. Yeah, thats thats the is the map. So yeah. So this is this is Ulster County and this is from carleton maybe book. So its the kingston mansion thats the that has the big boat dock where people would come up from harlem so that i mean that would be obvious place if its not just for one side its somewhat maybe its famous one. Yeah i remember its all new to me. Yeah. Well, there needs to be more. Could you speak a little bit more about Septima Clark in the Highlander School . Oh, sure. I always love to speak of the Highlander School. Absolutely. Absolutely. Fascinating space and. So the highlander folk starts as a Workers Education center. In the 1930s run by this guy miles horton and what basically what happens is that by the time you get to the forties, the Political Climate and this is particularly true right after world war, but the Political Climate had shifted and so that that kind of interracial labor that they were doing in the 1930s becomes less and less possible. So theres actually a shift towards more civil rights agenda within the Highlander Folk School. But they learned a lot of lessons from their labor organizing and they also did all the songwriting. Thats so important for the movement as we shall overcome. For example. So Septima Clark is a great example of somebody who is trained at highlander to go out into the community a very, very grassroots way. She goes to places like beauty shops, for example, to give africanamericans, particularly more rural areas like in the sea areas, the literacy tools need and other forms of education they need so that they can then get the vote right. So she she is trained at highlander to do this really enormously important. And also enormously successful kind of grassroots. So pedagogy is actually a big part of this movement. You see that the at the Workers Education schools most but you see it in other as well and a very much a bottom up approach shes not coming into the communities with the ideas shes asking, what do you need . And theyre saying, well, i sign my name on this particular certificate or whatever. I need to learn how to read and i need to learn basic arithmetic. So not cheated. And thats where they start. So yeah, shes a shes a really important figure. Absolutely. Anything else . Where are we a time . Well, i think its probably time to move on to the the book signing. If people interested in having me sign the book, i would love to do that. And of course, we have another wonderful talk coming up, too