Transcripts For CSPAN2 Garrett 20240704

Im excited to welcome karen nyman today to discuss this new book rich white men, what it takes to uproot the Old Boys Club and transform america. Its no secret that our country has a problem when it comes to wealth inequality and systemic racism and patriarchy have only exacerbated the advantages of wealthy white men in rich white men and women. Brings us into the enclaves of the silver spooned white men to illuminate their role in the world, how they justify inequality. Rich white men reveals that you realize americas founding aspiration life, liberty and the pursuit of we must recognize, dismantle and transform our Current System into one that liberates all of us. Garrett neiman is a serial nonprofit with a focus on social justice. He is the founding ceo of college, a National College . Of course not a National College access nonprofit that was recognized by the Obama White House. He was also a cocreator of the liberation ventures, a philanthropic focused on building power toward federal reparations, currently he serves as a senior fellow at prosperity now and a practitioner in residence at the Stanford Center on poverty and inequality. Nieman will be in conversation with gary cunningham, the former and ceo of prosperity. Now a National Organization dedicated to racial and ethnic Economic Justice, headquartered here in washington, d. C. For more than 20 years, gary has served as a top leader, Philanthropic Health care, Public Policy and educational organizations. He was associate superintendent of the minneapolis public schools, the Deputy Director of civil rights for the city of minneapolis, and the ceo of the metropolitan Economic Development association, a Minority Organization among many other titles. Everyone, please join me in welcoming garrett and gary to politics and. So thank you so much. That was such a kind introduction. And i just want i want to can we give it up for . Policies and pros and just can we give it up for Washington Literacy Center really want to thank and im looking forward to going to golf golf tournament. So my name is gary kind of have already been introduced but i am so pleased to be here tonight because i have known garrett only screen for four years over a year. So when he came to me with his idea that he had already been doing on this issue of ridge white men and i couldnt help but reach out and support him because we know that in many ways the and concerns cant just be taken up by one group of people and we cant just sing to the choir. We also have to convert people to the of social and Economic Justice in this country. And part of that is is confronting the reality of the elites that are driving and creating some of the issues we have between all of us. So garrett is such a pleasure to have you here today. And and that you finally got this book out. Yeah, absolutely. This has been seven years in the making. And so i was thrilled that came out yesterday. Yeah. And so i want you to start by really just talking about yourself and giving folks an understanding who you are and what what drove you to write this book about rich white . Absolutely. So. So i grew up in orange county, california which some of you may know is a pretty white, affluent suburb. So that was my initial initial upbringing and probably what shaped my most my life the most growing up was that when i was six, my younger brother in an accident, i was six, he was two and a half it completely turned my familys whole life upside down, as you might imagine. And it was really going through that experience. I think, gave me a sense that life, short life, ought to be seen as precious. So i think i always prioritized relationships like always had a social change orientation, wanted to do work that was meaningful, but at the same time, growing up, i didnt have any systemic analysis related to race, class or anything else and really got recruited into a charity orientation that i raised money for my sisters, for my orphanage she was she grew up in china. My family adopted her, you know, did that in high. And then when i was in college at stanford, started a college nonprofit called the College Spring, helping low income students of color prepare for the sats in college and, you know, raised 50 million, led a staff of 25, built that into National Organization and on the one hand, it was this big success that the Obama White House recognized as an forbes 30 under 30 and all these things. But on the other hand, it also felt strange because it felt like programs ours were really ill equipped to address the full suite of barriers that our students face. And along the way, i was seen as philanthropists. The book starts with an anecdote with a financial billionaire who we thought was going to make 1,000,000 donation to help our program grow. And then when he found out we served all the students, the school, he said they didnt want money going down the drain on the lazy kids that he only supports achievers. So once he knew that we didnt only support high achievers, he was no longer interested and it took that really kind of shocking, overt bias to shake me out of my day to day and really start what was really going on. And so that led me down a road of philanthropy and inequality critique. And basically this notion that the ways that social change actually happens doesnt align that well with what i had been taught at stanford that was very explicit that, you know, things like government and movements were a way of the past and that what we really needed was social enterprise, sustainable businesses and forth. And the experience i had at College Spring really led me to question all of that and not just question that, but also what is my role in the work as somebody who has a lot of it vantages that i basically became a skeptic of white led organizations and communities of color as i was leading one. And so the last several years has been really about trying to reckon with and explore that reality further and is central to whats covered in the book. Wow thats thats quite a quite a journey. So could you tell me, you know, could you do you consider yourself a rich white man or. Im just trying to. Then where do you position yourself in this continuum . I consider i myself a rich white man and i, i and we, in the context of the book that regard and i think the way i think about it is, you know, so i grew up, you know, thinking myself as middle class, maybe middle class. Ive learned that a lot of americans describe their backgrounds that way, regardless of what their exact situation is and basically what ive learned over time particularly as ive interacted with very wealthy people through philanthropy, that the way that most describe rich, as i understand, it is richer than whatever i am that i met someone who had a 300 million family foundation, who talked about how it was a Little Family foundation. I talked to a multibillionaire who talked about how there is only so much he could because he wasnt as rich bill gates or Warren Buffett and if you go on the Gates Foundation website, bill gates actually talks about how he has his foundation has less money than some countries, you know, so that people shouldnt overestimate, you know, his power and influence and what hes able to do. And to be clear at some countries because gates actually has more and more resources than certain countries on this planet, you know, so instead of looking this notion that rich is just rich or then you whatever i am, you know, i started try to look at it through a different lens. I think the the moment actually where i identified as rich was that i saw racial wealth percentiles. So it was that percentiles of wealth by race slice off for white folks and black folks and asianamerican folks, latinx folks. And what learned was that the the top 1 for black indigenous and latin x families in the us. This was a few years ago was about 1,000,000 you know so you know so while my family was not a top 1 family by the overall us standards that you know someone as someone who grew in a wealthy white suburb with access to intergenerational wealth and so forth, through the idea, through the eyes of those who are oppressed in this country that my family was extremely wealthy and you know that led me to other statistics, like the fact if all the wealth in the world were evenly distributed, it only comes out to 50,000 per person. So its about 200,000 for a family of four. So thats thats your share of a family. And so, you know, that i started to think about, you know, people who have millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars and so forth, that that all of those are folks who have more than their share of the planets resources. And it actually would take a lot of economic for a really long time, for even 1 million to be a familys share of wealth on this planet. You know, all of that led me to a place to to look at the definition of rich differently and really try to think through what is actually enough. Like, what do need for for my family for my children and, you know, what does it look like to . Have communities of support where i know that i can rely on other people in my life that i dont have to have millions of dollars tucked away for some emergency scenario. What does it look for me to live in a way that i have support from my community. So ill leave it there. Yeah. No, thats. Thats great. So. So i know what everybodys dying here is, but could you give the core elements of whats in the book so that we can get a, like, a snapshot of it or a synopsis so people can understand the philosophical underpinnings of what youre writing about . Absolutely. So the the book is organized in two parts. So the first part of the book is called how the Old Boys Club reproduces itself. And then the second part of the book is called becoming equitable. So the first part of the book really really talks about the and challenges related to the culture and structure of our society. And in particular, it anchors on a term that i coined, its not a new idea, but its a new term called compounding unearned advantage, which is the idea that seemingly small identity based unearned advantages when they show up key moments in peoples lives, they change trajectories. So its an alternative way of talking privilege, which is, as i imagine everybody here knows, is is a top. It is a phrase that can be activated for folks and compounding under an advantage. The way i think about it in my own life example is when i was in second grade, i took the exam to, be in the gifted program. I actually didnt get the required test scores i needed to be gifted, but it turns out was a district to work around where a teacher could submit a portfolio on my behalf and then have me be labeled gifted. If the district approved it. And thats what happened in my case. That my teacher advocated on my behalf, submitted the portfolio, and then i was tracked into gifted in that. Thats what enabled me to be you know in the most rigorous courses with the best teachers and most personal attention. Its also what enabled me to be for ap courses, which was required for being admitted to a college like stanford, which opened more and more doors. So, you know, its this case where, you know, i think when i was little, i thought that it was just i was gifted and it was just, you know, just something that happened that was right or fair or helpful. I think, as ive learned more about it ive learned things like the fact that white teachers typically believe that white students are higher potential or. Ive learned that parents google twice as often as my son gifted than is my daughter gifted. Teachers in affluent are able to provide more Additional Support for students like submitting a portfolio. Parents of from affluent families are able to advocate more for their for their children. You know so theres all these ways that the different unearned advantages in my life showed up at these key moments that put me on a different trajectory and because america is such a winner take all type economy, those seemingly small identity based unearned advantages can result in very society. Societal disparities. And so thats the first half of the book, and then the second half really talks about how to dismantle compounding under an advantage and and why thats in the interest of all of us, including those who are currently advantaged in our society. Wow, that sounds like a mouthful. So, you know, you know theres so much polarization right now in our in our country, in the world included that in that. Im just wondering do you think is your goal to kind of increase that polarization or decrease it or what whats the goal of your work. Yeah, its its its a really good question and polarization is complicated and and challenging and its interesting that a of times im asked about the work i do like is it divisive and you know one of the things that i learned actually is that the etymological roots of democracy it actually if you go all the way back its initial meaning is to divide. So the idea behind democracy is actually to have differences of opinion and have those shared and discussed and worked through. And i think the work that im doing, i believe, is really focused on advancing that. Its focused on amplifying voices that dont necessarily get weight in our society. And so, you know, so i think thats one part of it. I think the other thing i would say is that social justice issues in america have always been divisive. You know, divisive. I dont think theres ever been a case where its not the case that, you know, an example i often think of is dr. King, never had the support of the majority of White Americans the entire time he was alive. Like never at any point did the majority of White America support him. And still, you know, civil rights laws, legislation passed, you know, so, you know, when i think about the work that im do and i think some people some people get a little bit nervous that i have some fantasy that i just you know, going to hand all the rich white men this book and then theyre going to completely change their views, you know, give up all their wealth and power. And thats not how i see it, but what i have learned is that if a small even a small number of people who have a lot of advantages go out a little bit on a limb and try to do things differently that it can be very motivating and inspiring to other people and help shift culture and structures in ways thats really meaningful. So do you see rich white as the problem is, its a good and and its interesting that i think when people come across a book called rich white men i think theres theres often an assumption that thats what im saying which i think is interesting in its own right because its just descriptive that it doesnt, you know, necessarily eerily say anything about that demographic. But i think the way i would describe the problem is, is less about white men specifically and more like what does it look like to live in a society that where wealth, power is very concentrated and where theres very high inequality, you know, and you know, rich white men have had power in this country for four centuries, but also theres theres people who abuse in different ways before that. So, you know, society has these, you know, moments where, you know, where power is concentrated to different degrees and this i think its never been great or it hasnt been great in a long time. But i think were in a moment where that inner not just in wealth but also in power is extremely high and theres so many negative effects that come from that for a society that theres a real a real pressure and urgency. I feel about addressing that concentrate and wealth and power in this moment. So in 2021, prosperity and the other and belonging sooner out of the university of california near berkeley did a National Poll. And in that National Poll we talked about the you know, americas reaction george floyd and what should be done about police violence, etc. But the second part of the poll really focused economic inequality and of the while we found lot of similarities. But on race. So there was areas where we thought that there could be some coming together. We were surprised to find that on economic inequality specifically programs to help africanamericans in that many whites, about only 20 of whites thought anything be done within this. So im just wondering from your perspective, given that, you know, if in fact, that holds true to the today that only 20 of whites really think we that anything should be done and 80 of blacks and 70 of hispanic think something should be done, how do we bridge that divide, given that we have this Power Dynamics that you just talked . Yeah. So so i think about this in a couple of different levels. So one one version is just like is it is it possible to address inequality and a significant way like does this country have the resources to do it if it wanted to . And then the second part is like, what does it actually take to build the political will necessary for those policies to be . And i think the the answer to the first question is a like a really obvious yes that theres enough wealth and resources in this country to support a really wide range of progressive policies. So i give the in the book of how in San Francisco for example you know larry page, sergey brin, who are the cofounders of google, have about 100 billion in wealth. So, you know, larry page could for the 30 for 30,000 families in San Francisco who live in poverty. So larry page could an endowment that provides a 100,000 income to every family in poverty in San Francisco in perpetuity like that for that number of families, he could fund it in perpetuity. That would cost 60 billion. So hed have 40 billion left over. So thats one person, you know, who can provide a, you know, a pretty High Standard of living to an entire city by himself if if he chose to and, you know, then if you talk about race specific policies like reparations and you know so his cofounder sergey brin you know he could. 1,000,000 in reparations to every black family in San Francisco and hed have 25 billion leftover. So like the idea that, you know, that were not able, you know, we just its were not able to these sorts of policies and programs is like just really not the case like that. Jeff bezos, you know, could do this in seattle. Elon musk could do it in austin. Warren buffett could to it in omaha. You know that theres theres plenty of resources available. Its the issue is how the resources are distribute it. And so the second piece is, you know, how do we how do we go about that . You know, i think some people, you know, would reasonably say like, oh, well you know, larry page isnt going to just you give all that up. Clearly that hasnt hasnt happened. And i think the way i think about this is. That its less about yeah, its less about trying to convince everybody or even majority that if if theres even a small of of folks who step out, you know, and in many ways, like me, writing this book is an attempt to step out in that way. And take some risks that if if people with power and advantage are willing to go out on a limb, take some risks, ruffle some feathers, even a few of them, it can it help to shift culture in this country and, help make those transformative policy change as possible. So what do you think about the fact that Warren Buffett and bill gates and a whole collaborative of, rich white men have said, theyre going to spend their money philanthropy and theyre going to, you know, basically tap themselves out before die. Do you think that what youre talking about or is there you know you know, is that the kind of gesture or is there Something Else that youd like to see . Yeah. So again, also really a really complicated question. And i think the way the way i think about philanthropy in is that so theres definitely some philanthropy that does good like i think thats an industry thing in my view. But also theres a of philanthropy that gets to Tax Deduction thats pretty damaging. You know, im thinking of certain right wing philanthropy that the coats have spread just as one example that, you know, really focused on, you know, focused dividing the country, you know, spreading, spreading racist classes, sexist views, funding think tanks that support those kind of ideas and so forth. So the way i look at philanthropy is that i think right wing philanthropy has actually been much more effective at dismantling the safety and dismantling rights than liberal philanthropy been at backfilling that. So i would argue that, you know, even though a lot of philanthropy does a lot of good, that where we currently are is that the the net impact of philanthropy in its entirety is actually negative in this country. People in philanthropy dont to hear that. But i think that that really is is the case. And i think even for folks like, you know, someone like a bill gates who is quite charitable think i mean, first of all, bill gates is still getting richer, you know, so like were still like to, you know, to determined whether that fortune actually is spent in the ways that that he says it will be, but also, theres theres not a a ceding of power that necessarily comes from that. And i know folks who have worked with him who have said very explicitly that he thinks hes the smartest person in the room. You that the foundations strategy changes a whim based on his preferences. And i think about things like the fact that his wife, now exwife, melinda gates, wanted to have a gender Equality Initiative for years, maybe decades. And it got put on the back burner and it actually didnt get funded. Melinda convinced him to have a spinoff called pivotal ventures, focused on gender equality. So, you know, like how you know, how much did the world lose because . One rich white man didnt see his wife as an equal enough to actually even share in their philanthropy. And so, you know, so that theres a really strong connection between these very powerful white men and how, you know, how quickly inequality grows or shrinks. It really is. You know, individual white men have, that kind of power in our society right now. So, so on that point, i think, you know, if im if im a working class white person, right. In in in i see this book rich white man. How am i supposed to react to that . And what do you want white people to do that not rich white man when they read your book, what do you want . Whats the reaction that youd like to see or or what would you them to do, given that they play a role in this system as well . Its a really good question. And i and i do think it the case that for, you know, for white men in poverty its certainly the case that some of them are of rich white men, not all of them, but some of them. And i think part of that is this notion, that i think there are some some white men in this country who are trying to hang on to the notion that you know, someday they could be, you know, the bill gates or jeff bezos or else the data kind of shows thats sort of a pyramid scheme type type system where you have all these people who are aspire to this and and very, very few actually end up with a significant amount of resources. But in any event, you know, i think some white men in poverty are too fat. They defend rich white men because they hope they or their kids could sometimes be someday be that. But at the same, though, its very interesting that theres been a lot of Research Done in the last few years that that shows that when the messaging to white in poverty is focused on, you know, antielite you know anti plutocracy type messaging, you know that this notion that, you know, the the elite are making it challenging everybody else that most white men in poverty can get behind that messaging you know so so i think one of the challenges we have you know, with the Democratic Party and the Republican Party is that theres not a lot of willingness in those mainstream parties to challenge the elite. And so that if if there are narratives that are willing to challenge the elite, i think theres a possibility of of getting more white men on board. And its its a big part of why i wrote this book, actually, that i had written an article on White Privilege in in 2019 in the boston globe and a white man in poverty. Curse me out that he said White Privilege is bs. You know, it doesnt exist. You know, what about wealth privilege . Like, thats whats holding me back. And we ended up having this multiple email exchange once i validated his his frustrations at the elite, he was able to acknowledge that theres theres ways that that white advantage shows up in our society. So that i think if if people feel heard, theres a much more a much greater opportunity that going to be on board with listening to the pain of other people. And thats what ive tried to do in my work. Mm hmm. So, you know, just a couple more, and then were going to go into some audience. But i do want you to really talk about how you were actually walking the walk because a lot of times people come up with these things, these books and, you know, kind of pimp on the black experience or the social justice experience, etc. And i hope everybody understands what im saying out there. And so, you know, i mean, you know, this question of authentic city and, you know, if your book goes, you know, best seller and etc. , etc. , you know, going to be a wealthy white man, even rich white man than you are now. So tell me more about that, because, you know, i dont want to be part of that. You know, myself. Mm hmm. Fair enough. Fair enough. And i think you know, theres theres a you have a response that i can and will give around walking the walk. But i also think that one of the things that i want to through this project is this notion that, like any one of us is all good or bad. I think theres this this tendency to i found this with right wing folks, for example, pick out, oh, well, you live in this neighborhood or oh, see that you go out to eat at this restaurant. Therefore, your voice should be completely silence on these issues because youre not, quote, perfect in terms of your social justice orientation. And i think the reality is that its impossible to be a a perfect, perfect white person, a perfect white man, and actually, you know, many people would say that perfectionism is very much part of White Supremacy culture, you know, so you know, so i, you know, i try to resist the aspiration to be perfect. I also i also try to aspire to live values. So, you know, so one example of that, you know, in the context of the proceeds of this book is that the royalties of this book are structured. A royalties cooperative. So social justice partners of ours are six of them are receiving six seven of the royalties. So i have one share which is one seventh and the the way we came up with that arrangement is i worked with a movement philanthropy named alan frimpong that we cocreated this structure together, selected the organizations together and its partly a pre distribution effort. So it helps preclude the possibility that, you know, this project would result in more concentrated wealth for one person, but also its a, its a way of power. So its a its also a governance mechanism. So in exchange for receive the royalties, those organizations are serving as as thought partners and accountability partners for the project. And its very explicitly no strings attached. So you know that those organizations can criticize me publicly, they can divest from our partnership, you know, whatever they felt was needed. And they would still receive the royalties, you know, so i think its really important for those of us with advantage and power who are doing this work to really share power, share wealth and other sources of power through the work itself in order to really try to live into the values that were espousing. Wow. That was a great answer. Thank you. I needed that. And so what part of part of you know, you know, my last question, really, and in part, you know, this dynamic that we see in america around and racial inequalities in particular is that there seems to be right so you have the wave of the Civil Rights Movement you have the wave of the anti antiwar movement. It was another piece that was part of the Civil Rights Movement, in part. And you had the wave of the war on drugs, war on crime, war on us, a kind of wave that went by. And then then then we had the george floyd in the issue of police violence. And then you had all of this kind of outpouring of support. And now you see in a retreat. Can you talk a little bit about that from the perspective of this book in relationship to those that we see in these moments where actual change can happen . Yeah, i mean, its its a really complicated question and i think its hard for me at least to diagnose where we are at in this moment. I think of it as that were in the middle of, you know, the long Civil Rights Movement of, the 21st century right now. Thats thats the optimistic view. Maybe the pessimistic view is that just, you know, that wealth inequality just compounds to extremes. And this whole collapses. But i think if i take the optimistic, i think its you know, there are waves, as you were saying. And if you go back to the 19 tens, 1920s, there is degree of wealth inequality that similar to today. And there was a big correction through fdr and, new deal policies and so forth. Granted those policies were not racially equitable. You know, they excluded did excluded black folks and other folks of color in very significant but maybe maybe the 21st century movement. Correct wealth inequality could be different that i think that we have an opportunity now if we choose to take that opportunity to take on some big policies like abolishing poverty outright at a national scale, providing reparations at a scale that closes the racial wealth gap, the the resource is are there and and not only are the resources there that some evidence actually suggests that, were were at the beginning of that wave. So for example, reparations has about 30 support. A lot of pundits cite that as oh that this means reparations is never going to happen that 30 is higher than gay marriage was in the nineties. So you know, and, you know, we talked earlier about dr. King how, you know, that he had approval rates were in that range, you know, so you know, these things shift do shift over time. And i think if we we take a generation long view and more of us really deeply invest in some of those big ideas, we can make them happen, ladies and gentlemen, gary numan, give it up for him. So we have a microphone up here and we certainly would love to have some questions for garrett to for for folks in the audience. And then were going to do a book signing afterwards. But please come on up. Hello. State your name and ask your question. Im jesse a made washingtonian. So, richard, right . Which white, rich white man. So you say, you know, youre quasi rich. Youre certainly a man. But what is white . You know, and so you mentioned in your book i im listening to the audiobook you mentioned in your book that white people or europeans who come to are coerced into identifying as white so you know, white is a historical thing. Why why was created during slavery and was created for a reason to keep you know, socalled whites in power and blacks, you know, not in power. And so theres a lot to it. Theres this fear of intermixing in terms of white people. They dont want to mix. They dont want to be my color. You know. So what is whiteness and when did you become white, you know, and what does it even mean . And also to call yourself white in todays society, to me, its a little bit insulting in a ways to history. Yes, much damage has been done in the name of whiteness. I dont even see how someone can even call themselves white grant. You know, all the things that have been done through history, all the millions of people that have been killed, the indians wiped out, the africans enslaved in the name of how could someone even call themselves white . All right, how can you call yourself white . Yeah, i. I appreciate the question and and i think i want to start by saying that youre youre absolutely right that. Theres so much pain behind whiteness, behind White Supremacy and so like that, from my view, thats indisputable. And that there are there are there are risks, the dangers of perpetuating. And i just i want to name and acknowledge that first. And i think and im trying im trying to think about to what degree i do this explicitly in the book or but i think the the way that i think about it is, is more so that that more so that i am racialised as white by American Society, more so than i am white. Like, as you alluded to, white is a made up notion that was created by a subset of people to perpetuate advantage, dominance, abuse, exploitation and so forth. Theres no science ific basis for it. The term caucasian is equally made up that that has really meaning, you know. So its this strange balance of that while while maybe in my deepest core, im not white, im racialized that way by system and that that racialization bestows certain advantages and and power. So maybe it would be more accurate to say that that im racialised as white by American Society and that thats what im interested in dismantling. So. Right. So its a is it my final you know, this is a so its a its oppressive in a way. So oppressive for people are categorized as nonwhite to have to sit here today, to have to listen to certain aspects of that. So thats thats thats of it, you know, so a lot to it. Even in your book, you mentioned in 1705 that the you it you know, its made up as you said. So i dont know what it means to be racialised as white because you can choose for yourself how to identify theres this whole gender movement of people identifying as all kinds of different genders just because your skin is a different color dont have to identify yourself as white. All right, so please get up to the microphone. Were going to ask the question. Oh, it wasnt a question. It was going to be a color. Okay. Well, you can ask, but you may come not too long. No, you nothing. That is a no go ahead. Go ahead. Let this gentleman get up first. He was already at the my. Okay. Yeah let him go ahead. A pleasure be with you tonight. Im going to a course right now and it was a great speech. We listened to by Ian Haney Lopez and he talks about basically racism being a political of the rich to divide the 99 . And it really resonates with me. And the further i get in my antiracism journey, i see that antiracism and agree we must be anticapitalist. So im just curious at coming at it from a Wealth Redistribution angle that anticapitalism and there must be antiracism at the heart of your book i would hope. And so i guess, im asking that like is it is there reckoning with whiteness and White Supremacy in your book and also like in the work that i do, ive had a hard time getting the folks, the higher up you go, the higher the wider it gets and the more male bigots and those are the folks who opt out of dei, the folks who opt out of the work while the staff, you know, are in it. So its like is antiracism part of the the healing and your message . And what does that look like in terms of like getting these rich white men into those conversation . Absolutely. So theres theres a lot theres a lot there. So ill try to answer all of it. But if i miss something, you can remind me. So the the way i describe the system we live in in the united states, in the book is racial monopoly capitalism. Thats a term that left roots uses to describe how our system is structured. So its racial that its racialized, that people have different outcomes based on race, its monopoly, and that its a a winner take all type system. And then its capitalism in terms of, you know, the that we have capital, you know, theres a distinction between capital and labor. And i think i asked pretty often now you know like or am i a capitalist, a socialist . And it i think that sometimes its a its a its often a litmus test and could be on either side of it that its like, oh, if you say, you know, youre if you say youre not capitalists or capitalists know, stop listening to you. And, you know, for those who who dont connect with that, the opposite can also be true. And i think the ive come to think about it is that theres theres plenty of opportunities for capitalism to be reformed. Theres no reason why the particular capitalism we have to be so that we could have higher taxes, the wealthy, we could have antimonopoly policies for big companies, all those sorts of things. And its also the case that, like, i feel very empathetic and compassionate to those who say, you know what, my community has been dealing with racial monopoly capitalism for 400 years. It has never my community to meet its basic needs. So i want to experiment with new things that i want to try cooperative or Community Land trusts or grow own food or any of these other ideas. And you know, the way i think about it now is like, why not do both like that . America likes to think of as this innovative place, you know, can can we reform capitalism in a very deep ways for those who want to work on it . And also, can we experiment and grow alternatives . That may meet folks need in the long run and i dont find a lot of rich white men who are open to those alternatives. Some have even directly told me that they think those those alternatives is antiamerican, but like what is like what is more than being entrepreneurial, innovative and trying to find creative ways to meet the needs of your family . So i, i think short answer is i would like to see this country do both and, and ultimately build a system that meets everybodys needs. And whether that ends up being capital s or socialist or something that we dont have a name for yet, you know, that im more interested in a system that meets everybodys needs than what its called. All right. Thank you. Yes, sir. Hi there. I was wondering about the question, how. One should react to the idea that. Were not all racialized in American Society. When i say that, i mean. You said you were racialized and it was questioned. Well cant you see yourself and . Define yourself. Well, i have a fiance. On our first night, we were at a gay bar. Hes africanamerican, presents up as black. And im white and i had minorities up to me saying that they hated me because i was so white and i had an africanamerican man ask him what he was doing. A racist like me. And so im just curious, do you feel based on a question that you got tonight, that perhaps we dont all realize that were racialized or that people feel because they are oppressed, just that theyre not racialized. Thank you for the question. Yeah so i think the i think the the way i think about this. That when it comes to when it comes to folks are racialized in this country. I actually am cautiously to generalizations. So i would say for example, that the experience you had where assumptions were made about you because of your race and generalizations were made that, i, i find that, that, that theres, theres degrees of it and theres complexity. Its different when, when white person makes that generalization because that generalization is backed up by societal structures power. But i generally dont find the generalizations helpful. And actually in the book i work really hard avoid generalizations about rich white men, about all people, about all men. Because in my experience, the generalizations dont fully hold. Theres certainly patterns and commonalities that i could tell you. Most of the rich white men i know believe certain things or approach world in certain ways or treat people in certain ways. But none of those are absolute. And and i think that its actually really important that we be honest about that because it it helps create space for, you know, for people who have advantages to be different than whats typical. And i think of an example i wanted to mention earlier is theres a guy named Stanley Levinson whos since passed away. He was dr. Kings closest white friend, that he was a confidant of his advised him helped write speeches, helped hire staff, help fundraise for the Civil Rights Movement. He was a wonderful white man and im sure he wasnt. So, you know, i didnt know him personally. You know, he did a lot of really great things. And so, you know what, think about shifting culture in this country. Its its not only about the erasure of white women and people of color experiences. Its also about like how do we celebrate a different of of leadership in this country that why do we have a confederate monument, you know, for people were literally treasonous you know and then we dont have we dont have monuments for somebody like us Stanley Levinson, who fought for life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you know. So theres theres so i do think theres i try not to separate myself from the the ever possibility that i take on patterns that are similar to other white people, other men, other wealthy people, other rich white men and so forth. But also i really dont want us to generalize, because i think its not its not totally even if theres some kernels of truth to it, other questions. Hi, i have a question with regards to the ranges for nonprofit organizations and philanthropic organizations in the past, i used to work in the nonprofit space and part of what i would do is partner with other adjacent nonprofits. And so i would look at the 1990 forms to try to gauge how much money they were raising. And sometimes id be very surprised when id see that the cofounders and even people at the director level could make 200,000 annually, and sometimes more. And, you know, for people who were midlevel or more entry level within a nonprofit organization, theyre going to have, you know, smaller salaries than they would in the private sector. Do you think there should be any kind, you know, regulations around how much a nonprofit leader could make . Because, you know, when i see someone with a salary thats over hundred thousand dollars, i to question their altruism. Its a really its a really good and complicated question that and i see both ways frankly that theres a part of me that says, you know, why is a nonprofit leader making ten times what a minimum wage worker makes . You know, and then theres a part of me that also asks, why is a nonprofit leader making 100 times, a thousand times less than a for profit ceo . You know, so theres theres complexity in all of that. And i think maybe what i hear saying is, is this notion that i think is maybe not always true, but is often true in nonprofits is that nonprofits are classes in structure that i think that you know for me i was able to start a nonprofit right out of college. I have a six figure salary pretty early in that work. So i was doing, you know, social good work. But also making more than, you know, many 20 somethings. And so, you know that classes element in those racist and sexist elements show up in the Nonprofit Sector. Like just like do anywhere else. And i think, you know, i think theres a real tension around, you know, what does it look like for, you know, someone like me with the advantages i have to come into that role and pull a really high salary. You know, i feel more skeptical or concerned about that than i do someone who was the first in their family to go to college. This is building intergenerational wealth for their families. So theres a lot of complexity here. But i think youre to point out the notion that the Nonprofit Sector is classes in that classes, nature is, you know, reflects the wider society. Yeah. Two more questions. Thank you, gary. And thank garret. My names caitlin duffy. I know you organize with a lot of wealthy white men and leaders of color who also organize and seek to influence that audience. And youve been also working many of those folks as youve been drafting book and now with this launch campaign, what have you been hearing . What kind of reaction are you getting and any surprises in those reactions . Quick question. Yeah its a its a really good question and i think it sort of speaks to the fact rich white men just like any other group categorization, theyre not a monolith. You know that there is a range of of viewpoints and responses think i think what i have most common seen is that the rich white men ive talked to are the most negative about. The title specifically that i hear quite bit of like, you know, and its of couched, you know, that its like, oh, that feels a little bit strong or a little bit sharp or some of the people i know may uncomfortable, you know, like those kind of things that i think you could call, like probably for the most part with fall in the line, you know, fragility type responses, but also think, you know, were were in a challenging place because i think that, you know, anybody who is doing justice work has to kind of navigate this. You know, its like to what extent do i challenge those in power versus and meet them where theyre at or support them you know and i dont think theres any magical elixir about when do that and when not to and forth. But i think i think the ive tried to approach it is to really be empathetic. Whatever challenges and frustrations theyre facing. But then then also back and push them to look at the issues differently that um, and i think, you know, those of us who have advantages, i think actually have a unique responsibility to be in those dial in that dialog. You know, that if youre not someone who has a trust fund and someones complaining to you about, you know, how hard that is in deciding you know, how to divide it up among your kids or to give it away, whatever, like thats not going to resonate. It would be very hard to be empathetic, but that is a you know, its a real challenge that that person experiences. So what does it look like for us to be empathetic and compassionate, those of us who have the capacity to be that kind of person for somebody, but also to push them and challenge them further than would be the case. You got time for one more question. Hi. So for the benefit of the audience, i was one of the folks in the rich white men group that you mentioned in chapter 17. And its its such a thrill to see this book come out and to see your work and and to see our work get out there. There was the famous video after after the riots in minneapolis or during the riots, minneapolis, where a woman i cant remember her name, says, you better be, better be better feel lucky that were out for and that revenge and and i imagine that youre aware as well as i am how much bitterness and anger there is out there amongst people who have been used and abused by rich white men like us. And one of the things that gives me pause, someone whos really dedicated to this work, i think, like yourself, tries to take a position of being to find my gentleness to find my humility in, to do this work that when people have a choice, unfortunately, world is not fair. And if someones really at someone who looks like looks like you, they may take it out on me rather than the police officer, you know, the rich capitalist whos going to call 911 on them or something. And i have encountered that kind of bitterness and ive learned to be careful in this work, in part because theres a lot of skepticism, you know, are you for real . I mean, i know what its like to be the only man in a room of 75 white women, an antiracism course, and even less so a mixed group. So theres a lot of skepticism. But then beyond that theres just so much bitterness that its hard to be vulnerable in this work. And i guess thats one of the reasons why white male spaces to do this work think is pretty valuable. And im just wondering if you know what im talking about and if you have any comment. Yeah i appreciate your asking and i think what comes to mind me is i had a professor in graduate leadership, professor ron heifetz, who talks about how the the person whos willing to hear the pain across differences is one who gets most of it. And, you know, when i think about white folks and social justice spaces, for example, a lot of times the white men are, you. So you know that when the white are there, you know that the you know the frustration about racism channeled almost exclusively at white women. And you, as Robin Dangelo talks about, you know, its not always the case. Obviously, white women have showed up for Racial Justice either. But there is something strange. The fact that the the people who have the most power and who cause the most harm actually kind of escape escape under the radar and actually dont actually face very much direct anger, very insulated from, that experience. And so, you know, part of project is about shining a light on that and actually, i hope, you know, creating more space for, you know, for people who are deeply engaged across differences, that theres more room, more compassion for folks who are going deep into the work because were all where, you know, united in directing that anger at a place where you know, most of the power lies and, you know, thats not to minimize anybodys reaction, somebody like me that i compassionate to the notion that you know, that i remind people of i remind women and people of color often of folks who have made their lives difficult or worse. You so that if that reminder comes for somebody like im about that but. Its tough to be stereotyped in a way you know, and sometimes. You know, that can be a challenging and so you know like when talk about being compassionate to wealthy white men i think that theres no validating that experience of being stereotyped sometimes maybe even unfairly fairly in Spaces Together is important and also challenging white men to not give up on social justice. The first time that happens so you know really trying to sit in that complex and nourish us in ways that enable to make lifelong commitments to the work important to me