For this really important conversation, not just about this book about but about the challenge year that have of bringing people and our country together. Elizabeth, youre this book is it was a thrill for me to read it in part because theres a little confirmation bias on with me. I think a lot of what youre talking about are things that ive experienced personally coming Rural America, but also things ive been talking a lot about and to have someone write, book and provide all of this incredible research and Data Analysis that you do in this book, that confirms what weve been saying for a long time, which is that we arent all that different in this country. And so a first question that i have for because i looked at your bio and youve written about art in new york, youve written about celebrity, youve written about a lot of different topics but you havent written before about america. And so as the daughter of danville, what drove you to write this book . Oh, thats a question, senator heitkamp, thank you for asking, and thank you for being with me today. Im so two reasons, actually. I have always been a student culture. My earlier i looked at the production of culture, particularly artistic culture and creativity. My later work looked at last book, the sum of small things, looked at the consumption of culture and and why we consume certain culture, not other culture. And in that book, i really started thinking deeply about this concept of Cultural Capital, which is sort of our, you know, the resources we amass in terms of our education and in terms of what we read, what we watch, what we listen to. And these become signifiers to the world at large and something thats resounded and i remember reading a socio religious piece on this, which really with me, which is that everyone has culture. And i think what happened in, in my last i really delved deeply into this was this idea that theres this elite Cultural Capital. You read the New York Times of the wall street journal, you listen to npr, went to an ivy league university. You have a law degree. You know, any myriad kind of attributes that are associated with a particular kind of Cultural Capital. And i really started thinking that we had this wrong, that this wasnt this was a form of Cultural Capital. It wasnt the only form of Cultural Capital. And i really started thinking about it vis a v where i grew up because i grew up in this small town in rural pennsylvania. Im the daughter of, irish immigrants. I was born in West Virginia. And this clip occurred where i was thinking about this idea of Cultural Capital and what it really meant and how it was different for different people, along with what was going on with the 2016 president ial actions. Thats when these ideas started percolating. For me, which was that everyone, my circles, the media i was reading, was talking about how Rural America was really angry. And thats why they voted for donald trump and, thats why we had this we have this divided country. And i thought about the place i grew up, the place i lived, i dont know, 13 years of my life, you know, and i thought, i dont think thats entirely whats going on. Its not that its not some of the story, but theres a deeper story. And so that was that kind of blending of understanding the culture of my hometown and Rural America and understanding more deeply what might be happening in Rural America rather than this. What i felt was a stereotypical and, you know, explanation of of why folks voted for donald trump know, i mean. When i was reading the book i actually thought that a maybe a more appropriate title your thesis wasnt you know the overlooked americans but the misunderstood america. Oh, i like that. The people that every. Yeah. Do i wish i wish id talk to you before the but thats a wonderful title but i think i think its absolutely true i think theres so much misunderstanding about both of of what that culture is, of what the rural culture and really a misunderstanding of the people who live in those places. And with that comes a lot of judgment. But throughout the book you explore a lot of data on that. That i think is analyzed in a very macro sense. When people talk about rural, but you drill down and do great storytelling telling about the people who live there, but also drive some in in how we need to look differently at the data that were looking at and one of the spots that i was particularly taken with is this notion, because i get it all the time, that Rural America voted for trump because theyre racist and think your book, just as such a phenomena of exploring that could you talk a little bit about you if you if you disagree with me on on how this perception and attitude is about Racial Attitudes in Rural America and then talk a little bit about why you made that such a part of your book. Oh, thank thats a thats a wonderful question senator heitkamp. So so theres a couple of things that really spoke me when i was engaging in this research. First of all, was my experience of living small town america, but then, you know, as a social scientist, you go in, do the homework, you say, well, my experiences, one experience was a lot of observation out there that need to be undertaken. So i spoke to and dozens of Rural Americans in, all sorts of places from missouri to texas to tennessee to the heart of appalachia, pennsylvania to ohio. And i asked them lot of questions about, you know, big, Big Questions about democracy. And then questions about equality in this country and one thing that was abundantly to me was that Rural Americans were as keenly aware, concerned about the issues of racial equality, our country as their urban counterpart. You know, the first thing that came to mind, you know, that people are treated differently. Theyre treated differently because of the color their skin. Thats not right. Weve got to do something about it. And this was over over again when i asked the question of, do you think america is an equal place. And, you know, essentially or why not . You know, i dont think there was anyone who thought that america was an equal place. And most folks said its not an equal place because. People are treated unequally because of their skin color. And some ventured because of their class, because of how much money they make. But really, the the racial element was very clear. The sensitive liberty to that. So one thing that, you know, when you do qualitative work, you always have to be wary, as are the people youre speaking to, telling you what you want to hear. You. They know, you know, im on this west coast, you know, liberal, academic, you know, they know my politics. Even having a conversation with me. And so you think, oh, maybe theyre just telling me what they know, what i want to hear. But i then at the university of chicago and i know your base there as well, you looked at university of chicagos General Social survey, and they do these amazing surveys of folks and theyve been doing it for decades on all sorts issues. And i looked at the questions on race and how rural versus urban americans responded and. You know, the first that top line take away is they largely feel same way they are they are largely supportive and and not supportive of social policies in equal. And the Biggest Surprise being take away from me was that some of the greatest champions for social intervention to the black community to elevate women were actually the least educated folks in Rural America. It wasnt, you know, the poster child of the progressive coastal elite that was, you know, responding to the support of certain kinds of social policies along the lines of race. It was actually elite. These uneducated, Rural Americans, these americans who didnt have a high school degree. And i thought, wow, that is a really surprising takeaway. And those survey results really corroborated exactly what the people i spoke to said. You know, and and i want to get into kind of the economics later on but i want to i want to explore the work that you did in analyzing who Rural America. I mean, if you probably and this is a generalization and i hate that when i do it, but if you probably talk to you, grab anyone at a mall or in suburbia or grab down downtown or in manhattan and ask them who lives in Rural America . Chances are theyre going to say conservative older white people who dont like us and and, you know, you you do some great work talking about regional differences and who lives in Rural America can talk a little bit about that because i think it builds on your your your warning to people who want to have an opinion about Rural America, builds on your warning that dont just draw with the broad brushstroke the south is different the midwest economically and certainly the south has many more africanamericans who live in Rural America. In my neck of the woods, many more native americans who live in Rural America, were seeing a growing number of hispanic who have moved for Economic Opportunity in Rural America. You talk a little about kind of regional differences and demographics and what surprised you . What didnt surprise you and how that plays into kind of the prevailing attitude about Rural America. So i think thats thats thats a really wonderful takeaway is that, you know, to to talk about Rural America is to high to million Different Things that is there is going on in these places. And so one thing thats really clear to me is that even if if were talking about social policy or were talking about Economic Development and you talk about versus urban america or just Rural America and this kind of take away that Rural America is in decline. You know, you got to footnote that, i would actually that Rural America is thriving on a number of different metrics but that there are certain regions that are in trouble and theyre in a very different situation for economic, social and to a certain extent cultural reasons. So one thing that was really clear to was that this idea of Rural America in decline really was actually a story about parts of america. One being appalachia, which is which is in trouble, and the other the deep south. And these are places that are economically depressed. They have significantly lower percentages of the population with a bachelors degree or above. And there is not as much of knowledge industry is coming in to them. And i spent spend a little time with that in a moment. And so thats i think, a very different story than if you look at, for example, you know, the the eastern seaboard. If you look at the coastal west, if you look at the midwest, which is on so many different metrics, i mean, the heartland is a great i mean, you know, if you want to have a great life move to iowa. Yeah, i mean, they seem to be just i mean, from the sheer numbers and the people i talked to, it seems like a great place to be. So. So i think that that is really important and then in terms of and you actually a great job highlighting the heterogeneity of the ethnic and racial composition of these different rural areas. They looked so much different from one another and also that they yes are older folks in Rural America. But are also younger folks. And contrast i really like make is you know when we talk about urbanity or cities right so for many us we think los angeles, new york, washington, d. C. And so forth. And yet we also lump, you know, akron, ohio or buffalo in the same story. And yet they have a very different economic situation. And, you know, these you know, quote unquote superstar cities and. I want to say its the same with Rural America. So Rural America has places that fit that stereotype. Theyre theyre poor people are do not have college. They maybe have a higher proportion of folks who havent finished high school. They dont have a lot of industry on shore. Absolutely those places exist. And thats a actually a real opportunity for policy create bespoke targeted interventions. But then you have like coastal england or rural iowa or, you know, rural wyoming and actually those places have high honor, high home ownership, high employment rates, very low unemployment, high median household incomes. And then you see both the concentration Industries Associated with them, like agriculture in in the midwest. But then you also see the trickling in of other Industries Like software and certain parts of finance that actually do end up in our rural, despite the fact that we associate as city city occupation, city sectors. And i mean, one of the things that i remind people, because i think, again, that if Rural America is really agricultural america, but a third of all Rural Counties are dependent mineral extraction, which has been created. And the places youre talking about where weve seen you decline appalachia are places where mineral extraction is not the economy that it used be. And so i want to i want to talk a little bit about rural selfimage because you do explore this thing in your book about cognitive dissidence. You know, its kind of like her we are, the rugged americans, individualists. We just count on ourselves and we dont we dont need the government. We dont need to be our we dont need the booster up. But, yeah, if you look if im if im representing urban america and you see now gavin newsom has been doing a lot of interviews talking about blue state economies versus red state economies. A lot of that by rural issues and the per capita expenditure in Rural America from the federal government is much higher than per capita. And in suburban. And so you look at all these measurements and and kind of attitude about who they are and how people look at them. And i think in your book, you drew a lot of, you know, examples from what people were listening to what people were hearing in terms of their their grievance. But can you talk a little bit about this . This chapter that you wrote on cognitive dissonance and and what your conclusions were relative to kind selfimage versus maybe the image urban america would have, but also the image that data would would inform . Wow. Thats a thats a wonderful question. Thank you, senator heitkamp. I ive got a lot to say. So let me try to coalesce my thoughts here. So this this chapter starts out with this wonderful woman, shannon and i met shannon through that kind of a network of folks. I didnt know. And then they recommended this a method called snowball snowball sampling, where you kind of get context with the people you interview and so forth. And at some point, i landed upon shannons name and i emailed her and she wrote me back. That was one of the most warming experiences of this book, was the fact that these folks who did not know me and absolutely there was nothing in it for them every time i sent them an email, they would respond immediately. I mean, and give me hours of eir time. So shannon was one of those people and when we first spoke, i, you know, i asked her, my usual run of questions, the same questions i ask everyone and you you just sometimes you have these energies of people just kind of i really liked her like. There was just this kind of energy. I got from her. And just as people we clicked. And yet what she would say was totally the opposite of how i thought about the world, you know . I mean, it was just the weirdest experience of like really her wanting to, like, grab a coffee with her. And youre also thinking, wait a second, you are you havent gotten vaccinated youre you made it very clear youre not planning to. You really dont believe in change. You the 2020 election, youre a big supporter of donald trump on you and you are you question Marriage Equality and these were literally anathema to my way of being and my politics. And yet there was such a warmth and i enjoyed every time we had a chance to connect, i enjoyed it so tremendously and i thought a lot about this and i realized that the problem and you you you cited the chapters title cognitive dissonance. The problem is you this idea that you feel these kinds of seemingly opposing sentiments about something some person, some issue, right. But in reality, i, i had this kind of breakthrough, which was that i was losing sight of the things about shannon that were why i liked her, you know. So i was focusing so much on this discord in our politics and not realizing there were really good reasons to like shannon. So one of the things that just really kind of overwhelmed me was a question i asked all of the people i interview is if you had all the money in the world, what would you do . And you know, people say all sorts of things. They say i would buy my mom a house. I would go on vacation, i would pay off my mortgage, i donate it, you know, you know, any number of things. But shannon, when i asked her that question, she said, well, i would i would i would buy an orphanage. And i would buy an orphanage for of the children who have lost their parents to drug addiction. Its a real problem here. Paraphrasing her. And she said, i would also buy all of the people, the people who were recovering drug addicts, i would buy them new teeth because you dont smile if you dont have teeth. And yeah, it was so incredible, so so i have a question for you do you think shannon changed her opinion about the class or that the group that you represent as you know, you talk a lot about how this thing was so important and i think with shannon, you may have said, look, i didnt want to get i didnt want to tell her she was wrong on her facts because that wasnt my job. You know, i just thought that was so interesting that you interjected that in the book because it would have been my reaction as an interviewer, but yet that neutrality that you felt. But do you that that of all the people that you interviewed for this book that they see you know, rural or lets just put a label on a cultural elites academic elites. Do they do they see them differently because you reached out you know i would love to take credit, heidi. I would love to. But you know what . I dont think they ever judged us in the first place. Yeah, i dont think they ever did. I mean, you get my send my email out to folks introducing myself. Im doing this book. They see my signature. Im a professor at usc in los angeles. They wrote me back anyway. And i like to believe i would do the same. But i. I wonder you know, would i immediately have my back up. I mean, now i wouldnt. I feel extremely changed by the work i did, but i thats the thing. We lose sight that they are the folks that i interviewed from Rural America werent judgmental from the get go and shannon you know, oh, please go ahead. Yeah, i was just i was just going to say this kind of proves the point of your book, which is when you look at data or you look at classifition or labels, then then we all have assumptions. Yeah. But when we are operating one on one, there really arent those judgments. There really arent those mean you didnt come to this with judgment, had you come to it with judgment, it would have been a different outcome than the book that you presented. But, you know, i think, you know, i always tell people they say soandso is mad at me. I say go stand next to him for 15 minutes. They cant stay mad forever. Right and so i think one one of the things that that you talked about and and i think this is true from from work, you talked about how look at privilege differently. You know, theres been a lot of dialog. You know, weve weve got this whole example of, you know, crt, whats happening in terms of how we perceive our history and what were willing to say about our history. And and i think that the privilege discussion in your book was so interesting because it it it it reflected a true kind of difference between maybe how white urban americans see themselves and white Rural Americans see themselves. Can you talk a little bit about your your analysis of the privilege issue . Yes. Im so glad you brought that up. And im glad you appreciate that section, because that was something that was a real insight for me as well. You know, as a researcher youre you dont go in knowing everything by any means. So that was a real discovery me to appreciate these different understandings of the word. So for you know to right off the bat on urban americans are much more sensitive privilege than i think even their own ilk believe them to be. You know, i mean, theres this idea that, you know, a lot of these wealthy, educated, urban americans, these kind of meritocratic, are living in these bubbles inured to the troubles of the world. And ive written actually a lot about that in my previous, but when i spoke to urban americans about privilege one, it was immediately about material wealth and about having physical resources, tangible resources. And there was a tremendous amount of guilt, selfawareness, even angst about the privilege and at times i remember this one woman who was kind of a man herself because she was so, so sentient of, her privilege, and also sense of the fact that she was not happy. You know, she just was kept striving. Striving, striving. So i actually thought that it really created a much sympathetic portrayal of our understanding of privileged coastal elites, Rural America, you know. Go ahead, kate. Go ahead. No, no, no, please. I was i and i want to you know, when when i get into these discussions, because im frequently called on to explain why is it that rural does this, then im like, well you know, i, i guess try i know theres big generalizations and that all dialog, but on the one thing that i would say is, look, you know, they see the whole privilege argument and i think this was kind of recurring throughout your book, the whole privilege argument as a criticism of maybe their success or criticism of, you know, kind of says, look, were are you didnt earn you got because youre white and. Theyre kind of like, well, i dont think thats true. I earned what i have. And ive worked really hard and i, i didnt own a slave. I im not i dont have my boot on neck. So why are you blaming me for. For the disparity that you see in society . And i think thats a real important kind of dialog. And i think you delved into that somewhat, which is, look you know, i, i dont i mean, i recognize that we all start from different places. And your book certainly points that out in terms of t data. But yet i as an individual will be responsible for only my actions, not the actions of history or the actions of others. Yes. So that was that was a sentiment that was clear in my with Rural Americans. And i think on two fronts. First is that the rule americans and they didnt use those words at all but two things that really stuck out to me what were first was that privilege was was kind of defined differently for them so privilege was about the ability to do what you want the ability to have food on the table. You know, just kind of very, very basic stuff. I remember a farmer from iowa, craig, he was so interesting. He just so i just come and go with my please id never you and he actually had a really endearing person but he wrote me you know just recently about this as well and and he said, you know, when i when i interviewed him, he said, you know i, i was just at church the other day. And the pastor is talking about White Privilege and had never thought about it like that. But, you know, i guess hes right thats what it is. But i guess i just can come and go as i please and think that was that was a really interesting thing, that it was about that kind of freedom rather than about the house, the private schools, you know, very different kind of view of privilege. The other thing that i think you you get at, although wasnt what wasnt there words but but i had a few folks that you know look i work really hard or. Ive come from tremendous poverty, you know. I mean, one man i spoke to, he was in missouri. His wife was a judge. And he said, you know, i, i have friends who grew up on dirt floors. My wife had like six siblings and they had no money. And she worked so hard to get where she is. I just i dont how you can call this privilege, you know, you know, implying essentially, yeah, she worked really hard to get here. I just dont know why we should take away from that from her. So that was his view. And that was a sentiment that was echoed a number of times in the conversations i had with folks in Rural America and the flip side of that, although not really explored in your book, was of the belief that that if people didnt raise themselves up from, you know, a dirt floor, that somehow thats on them. And and so, you know, kind of this idea of rewarding hard work and everybodys hard work. Well, equal reward. I want to i want to turn now to your chapter. I actually had not thought about the West Virginia drug problem in the same context as what you presented it. And i thought that was fascinating about. The top 20 counties with, drug overdoses, 12 are in West Virginia and in a lot of what you learned was this this built on mining injuries, people who work hard, who may, in fact, have back problems were prescribed opioids ending up with with this, you know, this huge challenge. And i think in this same chapter i you have to correct me talk about donald trump. Why vote for donald trump . And and i thought it was the best description that i had heard. He was a great sales man, a hope. And that came one of your interviews. And i think so the attitude, the attitudes about addiction in america have changed. I mean, if we compare the opioid fentanyl crisis with the crisis of crack cocaine and in america, attitudes are and you know, i think there is a lot of people who would say, well those attitudes are different because of the populations that have been affected. But can you talk a little bit this kind of depths of despair, how that plays into kind of selfimage, but also overall image in in the country about Rural America and about certain populations. Of course, im so i first of all, i have to really give a shout out to eric ayer, who is the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who wrote death in mud lake. And he exposed the corruption with opioids in West Virginia. He was a tremendous resource for me. I mean, i talked to him. He was really so, so helpful. And jason, doctor, whos a colleague of mine at usc who studies addiction and they both had a really interesting regional perspective, dave, that ill tie in to my response. So i think first of all, one of the things that was so interesting about angus deaton and in case his work on death of despair is this idea of, i mean and they they draw from durkheim tims work on on why we would people end up in a position of despair for some suicide and whether its intentional suicide or some sort of negligence in overdose that theyre exposed spectators for their lives dont match up to reality. And i think that must be quite devastating. And i mean, in these kinds of oh, i you know when youre ten years old, you want to be famous. And when youre 30 years old, youre a doctor with a family of five. I mean, i dont mean that because thats still kind of amazing. I mean, it really like their lives are in incredible trouble. They dont have options and the mining injuries are huge because what happens of course is that theyre already in regions that arent economically very vital. And so if they get injured and mining goes away, which it did a lot over the last ten, 15 years, then you really are in trouble afterwards. You dont have a livelihood. You dont know whats going to happen next. And youve been prescribed these drugs and theyre already heavily addictive. And so thats that kind of downward spiral that happens in these very ilated parts of ruraamerica. And another thing, and i dont i dont know this to be true, my colleague jason doctor, talk to me about that. Theres a a different attitude perhaps or at least historically a different towards prescribing these drugs. And that in Rural America, there might have been more of a more relaxed. I dont know if youve had a chance to read. Barbara kingsolver daemon copperhead yet. Heidi, i dont have you read it yet. Its amazing. I mean, i just oh, you cant see nodding. Im sorry. Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Its an its fraud mary book. Right. And i think she does even though its a work of fiction because shes from the region and shes done so much research, she does such a great job of documenting that slippery space. You know, you have the injury you get prescribed, the doctor is being very casual about it. They give you too much. Theyre not really thinking about the addiction or they are thinking about it. I mean, her in her case, there was this whole racket going in the town where the doctor is actually kind of essentially selling drugs on the side. But anyway, the point being that that is this kind of unique thing. And this is where donald trump does come in. And and the great salesmen hope is actually Arlie Hochschild phrasing. Actually, she she used that phrase describe him in reviewing deaths of despair for the New York Times and i thought it was great actually ran it by eric ayer and he said yeah yeah thats exactly right. And what i think he meant by it and what i see in looking at that region this was a person who came in and whatever you say, his politics and his personal life. And thats just not the topic of our conversation today. He didnt judge. He made them feel that someone was going to get them out of where they were and that hope is intoxicating. You know, i mean, it is so intoxicating and no one else had offered to them. So its kind of irrelevant as whether it was fact fiction in that moment. It was something believe in when they had nothing to believe in, you know, and when you when you go back and you take a look kind of this whole, you know, kind of we take of ourselves, we take responsibility for ourselves. But yet this addiction is is bigger than just one community is bigger. It is a nationwide issue. And so its interesting. Were looking at now the lawsuits against the opioid manufacturers these pill mills and just want to want to add to your analysis. You know, how did this happen . The permanent subcommittee on investigations for the Homeland Committee actually did a extensive investigation of these pill mills and and and why it was regionally you saw more addiction more prescriptions and lot of was driven by money. And so those those culpable will find responsibility i think think its just so interesting when we think about kind of addiction in the comparison between the crack epidemic and the Opioid Epidemic is is really is it is it just racial . Is it time as we see addiction differently, you know, you know, this kind of attitude about selfhelp and selfresponsibility just just want to throw it out there as as a kind of challenging influence system. And see, i want to turn to the media because i just went through a focus group in Southern Illinois where i watched people and universally i dont care what your political ilk is. If you ask people whats wrong, america, ill give you two answers. Social media and the media. The mass media and. Right. I mean, adds to it that thats the root of all evil is the media. I mean, i dont even have a facebook account anymore. I mean, i lost my passport like five years ago. And i was like, well, thats thats just i never going to be going on that side. And so but youre youre not missing it. No, exactly. No, not at all. Well, and it does does in some ways, you know, when you look at how disconnected we feel, one on one, you know, that that ability to just text and not pick up the phone, make phone calls. But i want to read out page one, 72, and you asked this question why do we have such distorted views of others opinions and beliefs, which i think is critical if in reality, many of us have fairly understandable political perspectives, and i think thats absolutely true, this attitude, where theres so much judgment about people who we have different kind political ideas. And you said one reason that a number of my interviews mentioned was the media have a little bit about their attitudes about the media, what they watch and how that shapes perspectives and and not attitudes, just, you know, their own sense of grievance and if that if i can use that word, i think one of the things that you tried to do in this book and i think did in this, was get rid of that word. These are not angry grieving people. These are people who fairly are fairly happy, happy with their life have challenges. Yes. But are meeting those challenges and not blaming anyone else for those challenges. So lets talk a little bit about media and Media Consumption, because a lot of the people who will look at this this discussion about your book will be very curious about how people saw the media, what media did consume, and how that affected their perspectives so, yeah, thats a thats a terrific question. And we one thing that was really clear, i mean im really glad you highlighted this idea that that i wanted to get across was it wasnt a sense of grievance or anger. It was very matter of fact, you know, and even talking about the media, it was yeah, it i think it creates, you know, and and even when i asked them questions about, you know, what do you think, you know, elite media or coastal elites think of, you and some of them, you know, i remember this one woman saying, i think they probably just think were a bunch of hillbillies. But she wasnt like about it. It was a sort of accept audience of the state of affairs which in itself is poignant and sad if thats where we are. But yes, so so there was a real sense that the media was responsible for this narrative. And in terms of what they consumed, you know, it it really was across the spectrum. You know, there were folks who consumed fox news and cnn, you know, some some folks even, you know, you know, read some very kind of kind of urban, you know, New York Times, wall street journal and so forth. So in terms of the media, there wasnt a through line which think actually shouldnt be surprising because Rural America is a very diverse, interesting place with lots of different perspectives. So big surprise that the Media Consumption is is equal to that there was its something that ive actually argued about this in my last book too that some of the media that was consumed would be, say, on youtube or on facebook and there would be conversations about folks who were kind of known to promote and. The problem i see is that a lot of our really Good Journalism or really good media is is really out of reach for a lot of people in Rural America. And its really of reach if youre not willing to, you know, pay subscription and. The subscription to a lot of this is pretty expensive. And so for me, that was a really big part of this is that i think if you if there was much more equal access to on you, you could like, for example, like i have a subscription to the New York Times and i have a subscription to the wall street journal through us. Thats great i can play around with these different political views. I can go on to fox news if i want to see how theyre to something. I get, you know, the new yorker every day there daily. So you get a you get a sense of everything thats going on when you have that kind of access. But, you know, im a professor in los angeles. Im able to afford the subscription to the New York Times. My University Provides the wall street journal for free. You know, its its different, you know, and i also kind of have a sense because of that, my Cultural Capital of places, i can get fairly even and high quality information about whats going on my country. Yeah. And so thats whats so i think with limited i want to challenge you a little bit on that. So if i if if, if i decided i was going to have all money in the world and i could buy anything and i bought all these folks subscriptions to the New York Times, the wall street journal, financial times. Lets you know, lets go with the you know, the economists, you know, all of the the kind of outlets that we read kind of on a regular basis for additional analysis, what they read, you know, heidi, its a great question, but as i say to my own children, why dont we try you know, i mean and i dont mean that to patronize any way at all. Thats that probably landed incorrectly. What i mean is we dont know. And thats the problem. We make a lot of assumptions. Oh, you know, would would my friend shannon in kentucky pick up the New York Times . You know what, shes reading my book right now. I think she would. So i think we need to give people a chance. Yeah, but i think you know, by the same token, there is bias. The other side, what they read, the latest from the cato institute, what they read, the latest report from the heritage foundation, what they have a have a willingness to read what the Federalist Society is publishing. And so i think i think theres just this this media question is just so tough because it goes to kind of a willingness to only listen to things that you can read and in a lot. Well i wanted and when it comes i want to try and get because we dont have a lot of time its gone so fast know i volunteered to to your discussion about meritocracy and this hit particularly close to home because i used to tell people i just want to you know when i was in the senate i just want to vote for a judge, a graduated from the university of north lakota, not harvard or yale, you know, stanford or, you know, the elite law schools, universities, theyre all my own institution. And theyre the university of chicago. I didnt go to law school there, but i certainly have an affiliation with university of chicago and and so i want to ask you kind of this question its a maybe bigger than your book, but why do you think it is that values and economics degree from harvard are at a higher level than an economics degree from the university of north dakota. Wow. Well, now, if i had the answer to that question, id be in a different business, making a lot of money. So i, i think it has theres a path dependency, right . So, you know, im not a historian of universities, but at some point in time, harvard produced graduates who up for myriad reasons in positions of power. And that becomes a recursive process because we know our social capital is really important. You help people are you know a alumnus of your of your mater and so that path know over and over and over again and im certain actually that someones written a book on honors the history of the ivies in this respect. And there may also be a selfselection the sense that at some point harvard and an ivies and ivy equivalents they become because theyre to produce graduates who get great jobs and jobs in positions of power, people who already have power or who have wealth send their kids there. You know, as some studies have showed, you know, kids who come from families that are already wealthy, families that are already have or have power, they the ivy is is sort of you do it. But thats doesnt the ivy league isnt the game changer. The game changer . The ivy league is a game changer for First Generation College students, for poor kids, and for minorities that can really. But if youre already rich and powerful and you go to this university that produces rich and powerful people, you know, im not sure its really a game changer for you, b thats what you do. And so icreates that kind of stew of, you know, elitism and and privilege. Then also just actually, you know, the ability to be much more upwardly mobile mobile with that degree. And by the way, this is not to discredit folks who go there, theyre very smart. These are very hard universities to go to get into. So that also becomes part of the process, is that they become even more competitive. But i think that the dynamic. Yeah. And you know, i want to bring this back to the urban rural kind of dialog because i think more and more these universities are trying recruit first generation students from rural areas. But i think i think it also for perpetuates this that a lot of your listeners talked about or in a lot of your talked about working really hard maybe being first generation graduates of but not having that institution institutional degree valued as high as maybe kind of more the the elite. And so i think this idea of an and i always tell students and i said, look, you know, that that degree may get you an interview and it may get you hired because people like to brag. I have five harvard degrees and i said i want five years out. It wont matter. What will matter is your work performance. And so, you know and i think i think that in this in this time we dont we dont honor that university of north dakota degree or university of south dakota degree the same way even though those students are equal capable. And and so i think it adds and perpetuates maybe in maybe a a sense that the systems not really its its rigged for those who, number one, cant afford those schools or who have parents where can get in as a legacy. And so i thought it maybe maybe the better question for me ask is talk about of that chapter on meritocracy and why you thought that was important to put in this book. Well, i thought i put it the book for a few reasons. One was that the people interviewed in Rural America just werent as amped up about the meritocracy and their children being a part of it as the urban counterparts. And i knew this because. I had just my last book, the of small things talked an awful lot about the meritocracy and the attributes of people who were members of or aspiring to or wanting their to to remain on in that world. And it just was a totally different vibe when i talked about some of the same issues. I just want a stressed and you know, you might say, oh, well, thats a problem. But when i looked the data on Rural America and i used rossettis opportunity, hes a wonderful professor at harvard where you know, you can track how kids do, you know you know you know if theyre born in a certain place what what do things look like when theyre 35 and looking in the and now at the data i you know if lived in many of these rural states i also wouldnt be so worried because their lives are actually really good. Theyre just different. I think thats the thing that was really clear to me and i think for me was a learning experience because i think in my world, living in los angeles, being a professor, you just assume on some level. I certainly did. I dont now, you know, well, we all want our to go to college and we we hope they get into the best one and we want them to get the best job in the best opportunities. And then i thought, well, thats just one way of looking through the kaleidoscope. I mean, you know, people have beautiful lives that arent i got into usc or or stanford and im now working at a hedge fund, a publishing company. I mean, people very meaningful, deep lives without, those things happening to them. And and the other thing that really interesting was just that the parents just were less stressed. And i began to realize that the meritocracy was to the Global Economic system, the knowledge economy. But it wasnt the only way to be a part of and to exist in the world. And then you could be very, very happy without being a part of it. Elizabeth unfortunately, were running out of time and i had a lot away. Oh, my gosh. Wow, that went so fast. The economic reality theyre just going to have to read the book to get the full depth, everything that you explored, but i want to close with you. Im reading part of your your through the line, your chapter through line. You said we must act and they try to move beyond the narrative that americans are hopelessly divided from one another, we must try harder to see humanity in each of us. When i spoke americans for this book, i immediately, immediately liked every one of them. And a few had asked me five years ago if i had anything to say or understand about a pastor in missouri or a young man living in appalachia or evangelical whos prescribed subscribes to conspiracy spirit theories. I would have laughed, of course, and is this is really so such important discussion because we have we have used our political divisions, our voting patterns to tell a narrative about the American People that i think really unfair. And i think this book is so important to explore. So im going to give you the final the final kind of few words here about this this this paragraph and what how what advice you would give to someone had their eyes open about Rural America, how they could further engage, how they could participate. What we need to do as a society to bring ourselves you know, back together, not politically, but but in of understanding, not being misgender. Oh, i think that you did a wonderful job. I will try to follow. I think the biggest thing we can do, because ill be honest with you writing this book really changed my life and it really it really challenged me and a way that is all for the better. I just its not even just politics and geography, like just everything, understand, most people dont come from a place of hate. Most people have a reason for why they the way they do and its wrong really important to. Listen, even when you dont agree, try to understand. Look, democracy is messy. It is complex. America is there are a lot of great things that come from that complexity. But it does require us to kind of step up and say, i dont understand why this person is against this or for that, but im going to try. And then the one thing i would also say, this is a two way street. Yeah. So often in my work, i get to hear about how, you know, the lazy people in urban america, you know that they they they dont they know they dont appreciate the hard work that we do. And i say, why do you say that . I mean, my favorite was in north dakota or in north dakota. We know our neighbors. And i said, ive lived all the country. I always knew my neighbors, whether it was living in downtown d. C. Portland, oregon. I always knew my neighbors. And so i think one of the things that that we need to kind express as well in this discussion about Rural America is this is a two way street. And and im not thinking that there are any real americans. Were all real americans. And the we decide how were going to Work Together to improve our country, to move our country forward, the better. And this for, i will tell you, is absolely an amazing step in the right direction. And i, again, i have to confess my confirmation every time, every chapter i was shaking my head yes, nodding my god, yes, the brother. And saying, yep, thats what thats thats what i see. And so i want to thank you, elizabeth. The daughter of danville, pennsylvania, which may have something to do with you, wrote this book, your World Community in pennsylvania. But i want to thank you for an engaging and i want to encourage everyone who is concerned about the the unity of this country to read this book, because i think it is just such an important discussion about part of the country that not a lot of people and thank you, senator heitkamp. That was a im truly honored to have spent the time with you and for your kind words really, its a real pleasure. Take care you to read on about o the latest news about the Publishing Industry with interesting insider interviews with Publishing Industry experts will also give you updates on current nonfiction authors and books the latest book reviews and well talk about the current nonfiction books featured on cspans book tv. Ke that. Thats a different. Thats a different animal. And now joining us on about books is Tiffany Justice. Shes with a group called moms for liberty first off mrs. Justice. What is your group . We are a nonprofit Grassroots Organization of parents across the country in our mission is to unify educate and empower parents to defend their parental rights at all levels of government and when you say all levels of government, does that include . Checking and monitoring. What books are in School Libraries . Sure because we have government schools. Have you ever recommended a book being removed from a library . Am i personally havent recommended a book be removed from the library, but if i was still sitting on school board, which i did here in florida from 2016 to 2020. Im a mom of four children who attend Public School ages 17 through 10 if i had been aware of the books that were in these libraries and i wasnt but i would have then actually asked for many of these books to be removed because i do not believe that they are appropriate for the age groups in which theyre being presented and its this more of an age group thing for you than it is a political ideology. Yeah, i dont really think politics belong in this conversation at all. What were seeing is some very sexually explicit graphic material that has made its way into our classrooms and our campuses and our School Libraries, and i think parents would like to know a couple things including how did those books get there and what processes and procedures are there to stop that from happening again there. Be accountability here for what children are being taught and exposed to in school and does that begin with electing the school board . Yeah, i absolutely i mean i love local control and i love serving on school board. It was a wonderful opportunity and i think its important that every community have that conversation about whats being taught in the schools and how people feel about it in the community and every voice can be heard, you know, there are situations where moms may have a concern about a book and maybe that concern as it is kind of reasoned out. It doesnt hold water. But the truth of the matter is that parents have the ability and the right to ask questions about their childrens education. Its the fundamental rights of parents to direct the upbringing of their children. Well one of the witnesses mrs. Justice at the recent congressional hearing on book banning was Mindy Freeman. Shes a philadelphia area mother and she was talking about her trans daughter. I want to get your response to what she had to say. Lily also happens to be a female of trans experience. She is proud to be trans and we are proud of her. Being able to be visible for others and seeing herself in the books. She reads is so very important. I want to be clear. If there is one sound bite to arise from my appearance here today, let it be this one. No book made my child become transgender any more than a book could have turned her eyes from brown to blue. Let me tell you a little bit about lilys journey. Lily will tell you that as soon as she could recognize herself in the mirror the person looking back at her was not the person she was. The male presenting person reflecting back at her did not align correctly with her being. As lily was growing up during her younger years. She presented in what would be considered a more feminine way. As someone that had never known a transgender person while this out of gender norm behavior made my spouse and i questioned what was going on with lily. We did not discourage her from joining the things she loved. In Early Elementary School lily lacked the words insight and confidence to describe what she was feeling. As School Activities began to separate boys from girls this only frustrated her. In fourth grade when boys and girls were separated to learn about what was going on in their bodies during puberty lily began to panic. After sharing her feelings with my older two daughters. She came to my spouse in me. We did not have the knowledge of everything lgbtq, especially trans related. But what we did know is that we loved our child and that we would support her no matter what and this is when our learning journey began. We shared with lilys fifth grade teacher what lily was going through and her teacher brought to our attention alex. Ginos book george now melissa an awardwinning childrens novel about a transforth grader and said that lily had the option to read it. We appreciated the visibility that this provided to lily as well as the support not only by the teacher but by the school for having age appropriate books accessible on the shelves. Mrs. Justice, whats your response to what Mindy Freeman had to say about her trans daughter . Now, i think theres a lot to unpack there to be honest with you. Im glad that the parent and the teacher had a good line of communication and that the teacher was able to work with the parent as the parent was directing the upbringing of their child as they have the right to do to find resources to be able to help to support that child. And should that book that was referenced in that video be allowed to be in the lutt School Library as far as it sounds like a book thats covering a lot of sensitive content including the sexuality and the gender identity or the Sexual Orientation perhaps of a child and so, you know, i will be honest and tell you that we have a contagion going on in this country something called rapidonset gender dysphoria where we are seeing a huge spike in children that are identifying as transgender. Its extremely concerning to me as a mother and as a woman the idea that were somehow telling boys or girls that theres a right way to be a boy or a girl. It feels regressive in fact, and so theres a lot to talk about in that comment and what those mother in the comments that mom made but theres no doubt to me that that mom loves her child and wants to give that child everything that they need now. Should that book be on a Public School library to be accessible . Every child and i think there are many parents across this country. That would tell you the answer to that is no in fact, it should not be available to every child. Does that mean that the book is being banned . No, sir. It does not mean that it is being banned. It can be in public. It can be in public libraries. It can be in bookstores. There are lots of different places where parents can access that type of a book or Community Resources can be provided. However when were talking about Public Schools, and were talking about all of our children together, theres a bit of an understanding that weve had about the roles of school and home and those boundaries and so what i think youre seeing parents across the country saying is i raise my children the government doesnt we dont coparent with the government and there are certain sensitive subjects that we would like to be able to be directing the conversation around for our children. This is one of those things parents are very concerned about this idea about gender identity. That was never discussed in any of our Public Schools. Now taking a frontrow seat in our childrens education and everything they do including for many of our girls how safe they feel in the bathrooms at their school. So Public Schools have made accommodations for children for a very long time and i think in this situation there need to be accommodations made for this child. So this child feels safe and valued that the mother is still directing the upbringing of the child, but that the other children and parents that that school also have the opportunity to broach these type of sensitive subjects that really we still believe belong at home. Tiffany justice, was there an incident or a moment that created that made you cofound moms for liberty. Yeah, as i said, im a mom of four kids i unpack a lot of backpacks and then i ran for school board in my own community, but during covid i have to tell you that the normal procedure of a parent coming and expressing concerns about their child at that local level was broken at that time during covid and what i saw was a system a school system. That was very intent and would do anything they could to protect the system and the children were left to shoulder the burdens of adult selfishness and fear oftentimes and as a mom and as a School Board Member what i saw was districts ignoring parents ignoring their concerns about Virtual Learning and we are now dealing with a nation of children who are grappling with two years of lockdowns in this pandemic that have affected their lives in ways. I think many adults cannot even imagine parents voices need to be louder than any other stakeholder in conversation about education parents need to be part of these committees to decide. Whats appropriate for children to be learning in schools and local control and School Boards are one of the best ways to be able to do that to get elected. So, you know tina and i cofounders just felt like parents needed a voice and we could help them to find that voice Tiffany Justice cofounder of moms for liberty. Please welcome richard reinsch, director of the heritage