Click the healthy democracy does not just look like this. It looks like this. Americans can see democracy at work where citizens are truly informed. A republic thrives. Get informed straight from the source on cspan. Unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the nations capitol to where ever you are to get the opinion that matters most is your own. This is what democracy looks like. Cspan powered by cable. Thanks everyone for joining us for this really important conversation. Not just about this book but about the challenges that we have of it bringing people in our country together. Elizabeth, this book was a thrill for me too read it in part because theres a little confirmation bias going on with me. I think a lot of whatou youre talking about things that i have experienced personally coming from Rural America. But also things ive been talking a lot about to have summit write a book and provide all this incredible research and Data Analysis that you do in this book that confirms what we have been saying for a long time which is that we are not all that different in this country. The first question i have for you because i looked at your bios written about artn in new york. Youve written about celebrity. Youve written about a lot of different topics but you have not written about Rural America. As the daughter of danville, pennsylvania what drove you to writest this book . Oxide is a wonderful question. Thank you for asking and thank youh for being with me today. Two reasonsbe actually. I have always been a student of culture. My earlier work i look to the production of culture particularly artistic culture and creativity. My last book looked at the consumption of culture. And why would consume certain culture and the other culture burn in that book i started thinking deeply of the concept of culture capitol. Which is the resources we amass in terms of education, in terms of l what we read, what we watc, but we listen to these become signifiers to the world at large. Something resounded and i remember reading a sociologist piece on this which really stuck with me as everyone has culture. I think what happened and it might last book i delved into this there is an idea theres a leak cultural capitol New York Times, the wall street journal you listen to npr, he went to an Ivy League University you have a law degree a myriad attributes assisted with the kind of culturalth capitol. I started thinking we had this wrong. This was a form of cultural capitol it wasnt the only form of cultural capitol. I really started thinking about where i grew up. I grew up in a small town in rural, pennsylvania im the daughter of irish immigrants. I was born in West Virginia this collision occurred are thinking about the edge of culture capitol and what it really meant and how its different for different people. Along with what was going on with the 2016 president ial election thats when the idea started percolating for me which was that everyone in my circles talk about how Rural America was really angry and thats what they voted for donald trump. That is why we had this divided country. I thought about the place i grew up in the place i lived 13 years of my life. And i thought i dont think thats entirely whats going on. Its not that its not some of the store but theres a deeper story. That was the blending ofur understanding the culture of my hometown and Rural America and understanding more deeply what might be happening in Rural America methods and this is what i felt is a stereotypical explanation of white folks voted for donald trump. And i was reading the book i actually thought may be a more appropriate title for your okthesis was in the overlooked americans, but the misunderstood americans. I like that. I do i wish id talked to before thefu book thats wonderful tite [. I think it is absolutely true. I think there is so much misunderstanding what the urban culture is. With that rural culture is in really a misunderstanding of the people who live in those places and with that comes a lot of judgment. But throughout the book you explore a lot of data that i think isry analyzed in the macro sense when people talk about buRural America. But you drill down into great storytelling about the people who lived there. But also draw some contrast and how we need to look d differenty at the data we are looking at. One of the spots i was particularly taken with is this notion becauseed i get it all te time that Rural America voted for donald trump because they are racist. You are booked us such a phenomenal job of exploring that avenue. Could you talk a little bit, if you disagree with me on how this a perception and attitude is about Racial Attitudes in Rural America. Then talk a little bit about why you made that such a big part of your book. Oh, thank you that is a wonderful question. There are a couple of things that really spoke to me when i was engaging in thiss research. First of all was my experience of living in smalltown america. But then as a social scientist to go in, you do the homework you say my expenses one experiences a lot of observations out there that need to be undertaken from missouri, to texas to the heart of appalachia, to pennsylvania, to ohio. And one thing that was abundantly clear to me meant Rural Americans were keenly aware and concerned when the urban counterparts the first and it came to my people are treated differently. Theyre treated different by the color of their skin for that is not right. Got to do something about it and asked over and over again if america is an equal place why or why not question him or if theres anyone you thought america was an equal place for it milks folks that is not an equal place becausely people are treated unequally. Because of their skin color. Because of their class and how much money they make. The racial element was very clear the sensitivity to that. So when you do qualitative work, he was had to be wary are the people you speaking to telling you what you want to hear . They know i am on the west coast, liberal academic. Theyg know my politics that hae a conversation with me. When it yours that you looked at the university of chicago General Social survey. These amazing survey of folks of doing it for decades and all sorts issues. I looked at the question on race and help rural versus urban americans responded. The first take away as they largely feel the same way. They are largely supportive. And not supportive of social policy in equal measure. The biggest take away for me at some of the greatest champions were social intervention to elevate the black community. To elevate women who are the least educated bouts of rural fl america it was not the poster child of the progressive coastal elite that was responding to certain kinds of social policies along the lines of race. Its uneducated Rural Americans that did not have a high school degree. That is a really surprising take away per the survey results really corroborated exactly what the people i spoke to said. I went to get into the economics later on. What to explore the work you did in analyzing who is Rural America . If you, this is a generalization and i hate that when i do that. You got anyone at a mall in suburbia or someone downtown or in manhattan and asked them who lives in Rural America . Chances are theyre going to say conservative, older, white people who do not like us. Youu do some great work talking about regional differences on who lives in Rural America. Can you talk a little bit about that . I think it builds on your warning to people who want to have an opinion about Rural America builds on the warning dont just draw with a broad brush stroke. The south is different than the midwest economically. And certainly the south has many more africanamericans in Rural America. In my neck of the woods many more native americans live in Rural America number of hispanic people have moved for Economic Opportunity in Rural America. Can you talk about regional differences and demographics . What surprised you, what didnt surprise you . Prevailing attitude about Rural America. So i think thats thats thats a really wonderful takeaway is that, you know, to to talk about Rural America is to high to million Different Things that is there is going on in these places. And so one thing thats really clear to me is that even if if were talking about social policy or were talking about Economic Development and you talk talking about Economic Development, we talk about Rural America, and is kind take away the Rural America invites you have to put know that, and i would actually argue that Rural Americas fighting in a number of different metrics but that, e certain regions that are in trouble in a very different situation, for economic social and to certain extended cultural reasoning and so, one thing that was really clear to me, was that this idea of Rural America has in decline, it really was actually a story about key parts of america, one being appalachian which is in trouble, and the other is the deep south and these are places that are economically depressed, and they have significant lower percentages of the population and theres not as much of the knowledge industry coming into spend time with that in the moments, and then soap that i thank you so a very different story, then if you look out for example, these are seaboard if you look ates the coast of west come of him of the midwest, which isny lighting, on so many different metrics and hernandez you know come if you want to have a life, mitchell iowa. And they seem to be just the sheer numbers and the people i talked to a great place to be and so thats important in terms of you actually did a great job the highlighting the heterogeneity of the ethnic and racial proposition of the different rural areas so much of her from one another and also, think yes there older folks in Rural America and one contrast i really likee to make and when e talk about the vanity and so for many of us, from los angeles and washington in new york and so forth, and yet we have akron ohio, or buffalo in the same story coming if they have a very different Economic Situation in these superstar cities i want to say, is the same with Rural Americas of Rural America has places the stereotype there before people do not have College Degrees in the movie have a higher portion of folks school theyish high dont have a lot of industry and sure, absolutely those places exist thats actually a real opportunity for the policy to create most of the targeted information and you have a coastal new england of rural iowa and you know, rural wyoming and actually come this places have high homeownership and i employment rates and unemployment and incomes and you see, those concentration of industries from agriculture in the midwest and you also see, the trick lien of other industries like, software and certain parts of finance, that actually do it up in a rural areas despite the fact the associate these as city occupations and city sectors. One of the things that remind people, because i think that again, that image of Rural Americaa is right agricultural america by the third of all of the counties are dependent onen mineral extractions which has been created and replaces that you talking about, where weve seen in a decline appalachian and places were mineral extraction is not the economy used to be and so i want to talk a little bit about rural selfimage because you doing for this holding a book about positive dividends, is gotta like well he we are, the rugged americans and individualists, and we dont you know we dont need the government and we dont need to be this well we dont need the boost up againin if you look abt and if im representing urban america, and you see now gavin newsom, has been doing a lot of interviews and talking about, this economies are correct state economies and a lot of that is driven by rural issues and the per capita expenditure in Rural America from federal government entire per capita in suburban areas and so cute look at all of these measurements, this kind of attitude of about who they are people of them, i think in your book coming you on a lot of examples from what people were listening to what people were hearing in terms of, their agreements but can you talk a little bit about this chapter youu wrote on cognitive distancs and what your conclusions were relative to come selfimage versus maybe the image urban american would have it also the image that data would inform. That such a wonderful question and thank you senator Heidi Heitkamp and i like to say so let me try to grab my thoughts here and so this chapter, out with this wonderful woman chanted and ish met shannn through kind of a network of folks and i do not know and then they recommended me and then is snowballed simply were you kind of get contacts with people you interview andnd so forth an assembly, i landed upon tenant same and i emailed her and she wrote me back that was one of thece most warming experiences f this book with the fact these folks do not know me and it absolutely, there was nothing in it for them and every time those sent them an email that would respond immediately and hours of the time and so shannon was one of those people. And when we first spoke, i asked her usual the questions the same questions i ask everyone and you know,st sometimes you have these energy between the people i just really liked her like there is just this kind of like energy and had gotten from marin people week but we clicked and yes, what she would say was totally the opposite of howow i thought about the world you know about any images the weirdest experience of like really liking her money to like with her and you also thinking of a way to second,re you are what youve nt vaccinated anyway tubercular you know planning to you really dont believe climate change. You question 2020 election and you are a big supporter of donald trump. And you are and you question marriage equality. Thesese were literally to my y of being. My politics. And yet, there is such a warmth and i enjoyed them time we had a chance to connect, i enjoyed it so tremendously, and i thought a lot about this and i realized the problem you know, you study the chapters title, cognitive distances and the problem is this idea that you feel these kinds of seemingly opposing sentiments about something a person or issue right but, in reality, i have this kind of a breakthrough which was that i was using side of the things about chairman that work i like her and so on this discordant politics, not realizing that there were really good reasons to like shannon so one of the things this really kind of overwhelmed be was a question that i asked people interview is if you had all of the money in the world, what would you do and you know, people say also some things, they said well i buy a house or i would go on vacation or pay off my mortgage it donated you know in any number of things when shannon asked the question, she said well, i would buy an orphanage and for all of the children who have lost their parents to drug addiction is real problem here and paraphrasing her. And she said, i would also put all of the people recovering doug drug alex, i would buy the new teeth because you dont smile if you dont have good teeth. Is incredible. I have a question for you do think chanted shannon change her opinion about the class or the group that you represent as you know you talk a lot about how this was so important and i think when shannon, i think you may have second look, i do not want to tell her that she was wrong about her past because that was on my job. You know what i just love them so interesting that you interjected that in the book because in my reaction asan an interviewer yet the neutrality that you felt do you think that of all the people that you interviewed for this book, but they see no rural or less just put a label on it, choral and leads and academic elites, do they see them differently because you reached out. You know i would love to take credit heidi, i would love to you know what, i dont think ever judged us in the first place. [laughter] and i dont think the ever did. I mean, come up send my email out, to these folks introducing myself and in doing this book they see my signature im a professor at usc in los angeles. He wrote me back anyway i would like to believe that we do the same but i wonder, when immediately my backup enemy now i feel extremely changed by the work i did. But i think that is the think that when you fight, that the folks i interviewed from Rural America, were not judgmental from the get go shannon you know, sorry please go ahead. Yes, i was just when you say this proves the point of your book which is,s, when you loo at data or cause occasion or labels, then we all have assumptions but when we are operating onell on one, the reay are the judgments of the really are not those you do not come to this with judgment, as you come to it with judgment, he wouldve been a different than the jew presented to, but you know i think that it was so people sometimes mad at me this eco stand next to them for 15 minutes we cant statement forever and so i think that one of the things that you talk about and i think that this is true for my work, you talk about how we look at privilege differences, is been a lot of dialogue that weve gotten that this whole example you know, crt and whatt is happening in terms of how we profess into perceived history one willing to say about her history and i think that the privilege of discussion in your book was so interesting because it reflected a true kind of differenceen between maybe how wider been american see themselves, white Rural American see themselves and can you talk a bit about your analysis of hope privilege issue. Yes, im so glad you brought that up. Andse im glad you appreciated this section because of something is a real insight for me as well, as a researcher and you dont not going doing everything by any means that was a real discovery for me to appreciate these differences and understandings of the word. So, the map, and a group of americans are much more sensitive and privileged than i think, even though folks believe them to be ellipsis i do that you know a lot of these will be educated to urban americas while they are living these levels and troubles of the world everything about that in my previous books but but when i spoke to urbany americas about privilege one is medially about material wealth and having physical resources intangible resources. There was a tremendous about of guilt and selfawareness and even angst about the privilege and at times i remember this one woman who was kind of mad at herself because she was so aware of her privilege and also by the fact she was happy. She just kept striving striving striving is so actually that it really created a much more sympathetic portrayal of our understanding of no privileged elites Rural America. No please, you go ahead. Will just want to you know when but i given to these discussions because frequently called on to explain why is this at Rural America does this is like will. [laughter] i guess i will try this and theres big generalizations and that will dialogue but on privilege, the one thing that i would say is, they see the whole privilege argument and i think that this was kind of repentant reoccurring throughout your book whole privilege argument is a criticism i think their successors criticism of you know finis is looking, where you are, you did not earn and you gotta because you are white. His help like will i dont think that is tonight didve earn whati got awfully hard and did not own a slave and do not have my boots anyways next why are you blaming me for the disparity that you see in society and i think that is a real important dialogue think you delve into that somewhat which is, i dont and i recognize that we all start from different places and you your book certainly pointed out in terms of the date that but yet is an individual, will be responsible for pulling my actions and of the actions of history of the actions of others sue mcginnis, so that was a sentiment that was clearly interviews as the Rural American i think a different verses that the Rural Americans they did not use those words, itll but do you think few things a sick out to me, was the first that the privilege was kind of defined differently for the privilege was about, the ability to do what you want and the ability to have food on the table and just kind of very basic but remember, a farmer from iowa and he was so interesting and he said i just come and go as i please and it never will he was a really enduring person and he wrote me know just recently about this well and he said when i interviewed him he said im just interested today im p talking about White Privilege i never thought about it like that but you know i guess hes lucky and thats what he does because floyd can come and go as a please. I think thats a really interesting thing is about the kind of freedom rather than about, the housee and private schools very different kind of me with privilege pretty and the other thing that i think you get out although it was not a word, but i had a few folks say that you know, truly hard work i have come from tremendous poverty enemy one man i spoke to, and missouri and his wife was a judge and he said you know, my friends a group under floors my wife had like six siblings had no money and she worked so hard he or she is just to not know how you can focus privilege you know and implyo essentially that she worked really hard to get here and i just dont know why would you take away from that from her. And that was a sentiment that was echoed a number of times in the conversations i had with folks in Rural America. And the flipside of that although from the really invoke was kind of fat if people did not r wave themselves up you knw from a dirt floor the somehow, that is on them. In this idea of rewarding hardworking everybody hard work will receive equal rewards. And wanted turned out, to your chapter and actually had not thought about the appalachia West Virginia drug problem in the same context is what you presented to and i thought that was fascinating about the top 20 counties with drug overdoses, 12 are in West Virginia and a lot of what you learn was that this note on mining and teresa people work hard, and it may in fact have had back problems who were prescribed opioids and ending up with this you know this huge challenge i think in the same chapter, you have to correctly, you talk about donald trump right and i thought that it was the best subscription that i had heard him he was a great salesman and i came from one of your interviews i think most of the other two is about addiction in america they have changed the me if we compare the opioid fentanyl crisis with the crisis of crack and cocaine, and urban america, attitudes are different. I think theres a lot of people who would save thoseen attitudes are different because of population that have been affected. Can you talk b a little bit abot this kind of depths of despair and how that plays into selfimage but also overall image in the country about Rural America had certain populations. Of course, and so personal after really give a shout out to eric, who is the pulser prizewinning journalist who wrote devon publican he exposed the c corrections with opioids n West Virginia and he was tremendous resource for me to talk to him and he was really so so helpful. Ed doctor colleague of mine m at usc, studies addictions and they both had a really interesting regional perspective that i will tighten my response. So i think first of all, one of the things was so interesting about the work on death depth of despair is this idea of will they draw from the kind of work on why we the people end up in e position of despair. For some, suicide whether its intentional suicide or some sort of negligence in overdose but their expectations for their lives dont match up to reality. I think that was big quite devastating and i dont mean in these kind of will when youre you want to be famous and when you are 30 years old, your doctor with the family five and i dumbing up because i still kind of amazing but, i mean, really like lives are incredible trouble they do notot have options. The mining injuries are huge because what happens of course is that there really regions that are not economically very vital and so if they get injured in mining is a way which additional what overt the last ten or 15 years. Then, you really are in trouble wafterwards and you do not hava public good you don not enough was going to happen next. And even prescribe these drugs and overly heavily addictive so thats the kind of downward spiral that happens in a very isated parts of Rural America. Another thing, and i dont know this to be true my colleagues talk to me about this that there is a different attitude for release historically different attitude towards prescribing these drugs. That Rural America mightve been more relaxing i dont know if you had a chance to read barbara copperhead yet. And heidi have you ready get ended this amazing and. We cannot see me nodding im sorry yes. Mwell it was next to run in her writing ihe think that she said even though the work of fiction, because shes from the region shes done so much research,re she do such of documenting that slippery face you know the injury you prescribed in the darker is been very casual aboutre a thing to e too much and i really thinking about the addiction or they are thinking about it andth in her case numbers this already going on in this town but the doctor was actually, kind of essentially selling drugs on the side. But anyway, the point being, that is this kind of a unique thing and this for donald trump or adjustment the great salesman the pope is actually only pricing actually to use that phrase to describe him in reviewing depths of despair forg the New York Times. Despite and eric said that yes, thats exactly right and i think, what she meant by it had but i see looking out that region printed this is a person who came in and whatever you say, aboutol the politics and te personal life and that is just on the topic of the conversation today. He did not judge any me to feel somebody was going to get them adequately work. Help is intoxicating mean it is so intoxicating and nobody else had offered it to them and it is kind of irrelevant as to whether it was fact or fiction in that moment it was something to believe in when they had nothing to believe in. And you know when you go back and you take full we take care of ourselves responsibility to get his addiction is bigger than just one community and it is bigger and it is a nationwide issue is so is interesting that we are looking at now, in the marches against the opioid manufacturers of these help mills they just want to add to your analysis about you know this happened. The permanent subcommittee on investigations moment Security Committee actually did pretty extensive investigation of these help mills and why it was regionally yourself more addiction and more prescriptions and a lot of it was driven by money. And so, those hopefully they will find responsibility but i think that it is just so interesting when we think about kind of addiction and in the comparison between the crack epidemic and the Opioid Epidemic is really it is just racial or is it time as we see addictions differently, and you know, this kind of attitude about selfhelp and self responsibility and just want to throw it out there is a kind of a challenging and consistency to turn to the media because i just went through a focus group in Southern Illinois where i watched people universally, and i dont care what your political is but if yes people whats wrong with america buggy two answers about social media and the media mass media and right enemy that is so believable as the media. I dont have a facebook account anymore lastly kelly five years ago i was like will thats just will never going to be going that siding on. When youre not missing it. No not at all. [laughter] will and it does in some ways, you know when you look at how disconnected we feel, when one you know that ability is just to not think of the vitamin phone call just text but i read page72, and you ask this question of why do we attempt such distorted views of each opinions which i thank you so critical and if in reality, many of us had barely understandable political perspectives i and i think that thats absolutely true as attitude where theres so much judgment about people have different kind off political ideas and you said, when reason that a number of interviews mentioned, was the media type a little bit about their attitudes and other media watch out that shapes perspectives and not attitudes, just about you know their own sense of grievance that i can use that word and i think it would of the things that you try to do in this book and i think getting this book, get rid of that these are not angry grieving people these are peoplere who fairly happy life d challenges yes but are meeting the challenges not blaming anyone else for those challenges and solis talk a little bit about the media and the Media Consumption because a lot of the people who will look at this discussion about your book, will be very curious about how the peoplesoft media what media did they consume and how that affected their perspectives. And so, this is a terrific question. One thing really clear and im really glad you highlighted thit idea that i wanted to get across was that it was not a sense of anger and very matteroffact. Creates, you know, and and even when i asked them questions about, you know, what do you think, you know, elite media or coastal elites think of, you and some of them, you know, i remember this one woman saying, i think they probably just think were a bunch of hillbillies. But she wasnt like about it. It was a sort of accept audience of the state of affairs which in itself is poignant and sad if thats where we are. But yes, but yes, there was a real sense the media was responsible for this narrative. And of what they consumed, it really was across the spectrum. There were folks who consume fox news, cnn, some folks even read some very kind of urban New York Times, wall street journal and so forth. In terms of the media should not be surprising. Because Rural America is a very diverse and interesting place with lots of different perspectives. L its equal to that. Something i have argued about in my last book two, that some of the media that was consumed on Youtuber Facebook there would be conversations about folks who were known to promote misinformation. The problem i see a lot of really good journalists, good media is out of reach for a lot of people in Rural America but its really out of reach of you are not willing to pay a subscription in the subscription to a lot of the media is pretty expensive. Tomatoes are really big part of this. There is much more equal access to news, for example i have a subscription to the walls New York Times and the wall street journal thats great i can play around the different political views. I can go into fox news if i want to see how they are reacting to something. I get the new yorker every day. You get a sense of everything going on when you have that access. I am a professor in los angeles appeared and able to afford the subscription to New York Times. My University Provides the wall street journal for free. Itsth different too. And i have a sense because of that we can get fairly even high quality information about whats going on in mynt country. Fixing to challenge you a little bit on that. Ion decided i was going to have all of the money in the world and i could buyan anything. And i bought all these folks subscriptions to the New York Times, wall street journal, Financial Times the economists, all of the outlooks we read for additional analysis. You know it is a great question. But as i say to my own children, why dont wee try . And i do not mean that in a patronizing way at all. That probably landed incorrectly. We do not know that is a problem. We make a lot of assumptions. Would my friend shannon and kentucky pick up the New York Times. Shes reading my book right now, i think she would. I think we need to give people a chance. By the same token there is bias on the other side. With the reader part of the cato institute, the latest from the Heritage Foundation . Would they have a willingness to read with the federal society is publishing . This immediate question is so tough. I go to a willingness to only listen to things that you can agree with. I want to we do not have a lot of time is gone so fast. I want to turn to your discussion about meritocracy. This has particular close to home. I used to telll people when i ws in the senate not harvard or yale or stanford the elite law schools. Of my own institution. I did not go to law school there i send didnt have affiliation with university of chicago. And so i want to ask you this question. Why do you think it is that society values an economics degree from harvard at a higher level than an economics degree from the university of north dakota . Oh wow. I had the answer to that question i would be a different business making a lot of money. [laughter]in there is a path dependency, right . I am not a historian of university but at some point in time harvard produced graduates who ended up for a myriad of reasons moderate. And so that path over and over and over again i am certain actually someone has written a book on this for the history. There may also be selfselection in the sense some point harvard and iv equivalents because they are known to produce graduates who get great jobs and jobs and position of power people who have power or wealth send their kids there. Kids who come from families that are wealthier families that already have power you do it but the ivy league is not the game changer. Ivy is a game changer for firstgeneration College Students were for cape orchids and minorities. If you arent rich and powerful he go to the university that uns rich and powerful peoplem not sure iss a game changer for you but thats what you do. It creates of elitism and a privilege and also actually the ability to be much more upward mobile with that degree. By late this not to discredit folks that go there they are very smart these are very hard universities to get into. That also becomes part of the process. Its even more competitive. I want to bring this back to the urban rural dialogue. I think a more and more of these universities are trying to recruit firstgeneration students from rural areas. I think it also perpetuates this idea that a lot of your listeners or your interviewees talked about working really hard, being firstgeneration graduates of institutions but not having the institutional degree value as high as more of the elite degrees. So i think this idea, and i always tell students. I said look that degree may get you an interview. It may get you hired because people like to brag i have five harvard degrees but i said five years out it will not matter what will matter is your work performance. I think in this time we do not honor the university of north dakota degree or university of south dakota degree the same way even though those students are equally capable. It adds and perpetuates may be a sense the system is not really much it is rigged for those who number one can afford those schools or have parents you can get in as a legacy. May be the better question for me too ask is, talk about that chapter on meritocracy and a wife that that was important to put in this book. I put in the book for a few reasons. One was that the people i interviewed in ruralal america were not as amped up about meritocracy and their children being a part of it as the urban counterparts. And i knew this because my last book talked an awful lot about the meritocracy and the attributes of a people who were members of or aspiring two or to orwanted their children to rn in that world. I wasam a totally different vibe when i talked about the same issues. You mightle say that is a probl. But when i looked at the data on Rural America and is the opportunity atlas hes that wonderful professor at harvard. You can track how kids do. They are born in a certain place whats it like when that 35 look in the here and now of the data i thought if i lived in many of these rules states i would also wouldnt be so worried. Their lives areen really good theyre just different. Thats the thing that was really clear to me. For me it was a learning experience because in my world living in los angeles, being a you assume on some level i certainly did i dont now. We all went our kids to go to college we hope to get to the best one we want them to get the best job the best opportunities and that ise just one way of looking to the kaleidoscope. People have beautiful lives that arent i got into usc or yale or stanford and i am now working at a hedge fund or a publishing company. People have very meaningful deep lives without those things happen to them. The other thing that was interesting was the parents were restless. I began to realize the meritocracy was important to the Global Economic system the knowledge of economy but it was not the only way to be a part of it and to exist in the world. And you can be very, very happy without being a part of it. Elizabethan portia were running out of time. Oh my gosh wow that went so fast break works economic reality. They are just going to have to read the book to get the full depth of everything that youou explored. But i want to close with you on reading part your chapter through the lysate must actively try to move the on the narrative that a americans are hopelessly divided from one another. We must try harder to see humanity in each of us. When i spoke to americans for this book i immediately liked every one of them. Ifag you asked me five years agi had anything to say or understand about a pastor in missouri or young man living in appalachia evangelical who subscribes to conspiracy theories i would have laughed of course. This is such an important discussion. We have used our political divisions our voting patterns to tell a narrative about the American People that i think is really unfair parade this book is so important to explore that. So i am going to give you the final few words here about this paragraph. And what advice you would give to someone who has their eyes open about Rural America how they would further engage. How they could participate. What we need to do as a society to bring ourselves back together. Not politically but in terms of understanding not being misunderstood. Rex i will try to follow i think the biggest thing we can do because i will be honest with you, writing this book really changed my life it. And it really challenged me in a way thats all for the better its not just even politics and geography. Just everything. Understand most people do not come from a place of hate. Most people have reason for why the feel the way they do. And it is really important to listen. Even when you dont agree. Try to understand. Democracy is messy it is complex theres a lot of great things that come from that complexity. But it does require us to step up and say i do not understand why this person is against this or for that. But i am going to try. One thingwa i would also say, this is a twoway street. So often in my work i get to hear about the lazy people in urban america. They dont appreciate the hard work that we do. And i say why do you say that . My favorite was in north dakota we know our neighbors and said i have lived all over the country i always knew my neighbors that was. C living in downtown d. C. , portland, oregon, i always knew my neighbors. I think a one of the things we need to express as well in this discussion about Rural America is this is a twoway street. Im not thinking there are any real americans we are all real americans. The sooner we decide were going to Work Together to improve our country to move our country forward, the better. And i will tell you this book is an absolutely amazing step in the right direction. And again i have to confess my confirmation bias every chapter of shaking my head yes, nodding my head yes and saying yes, that is what i i see. I want to thank you, elizabeth the daughter of danville pennsylvania which may have something to do with why you wrote this book in a Rural Community in pennsylvania i want to thank you for an engaging conversation. And i want to encourage everyone who is concerned about the unity of this country to read this book. It is just such an important discussion about a part of the country that not a lot of people understand anymore. Thank you, senator. 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