Transcripts For CSPAN2 Mehdi 20240704

Mehdi hasan celebrating the release of win every argument the art of debating persuading and public speaking when every shows how anyone can communicate with rise above the for tat on social media and triumph in a successful and productive debate in the real world. Whether you are making a at work or debating current political issues with a friend mehdi hasan will teach you how to sharpen your speaking skills and make winning case mehdi hasan an Award Winning britishamerican journalist. He will write and he is the host the mehdi hasan show on msnbc, nbcs streaming channel peacock. Hasan is a former columnist, podcaster at the intercept, a former presenter on aljazeera english and his op eds have also appeared in the york times and the washington post. Hasan will be in conversation this evening with jen psaki, who has been called one of the best press secretary. Im going to restart because this deserves tone. One. One of the best press secretaries. A fitting accol accolade . Yes. A fitting accolade. Given that her tenure as the White Press Secretary covered. One of the most complex periods in modern president ial history. Psaki has a show launching on msnbc in weeks inside with jen psaki at 12 p. M. On sundays show. So please welcome me and joining to politics and prose this evening. Mehdi hasan jen psaki. You, what a great. Is this working okay. What a great here. This is amazing. Well first, i want to start by just giving you a little heads up that when we get to the q a portion, then you will all have the opportunity to debate many should you choose. So people here who know him know theres some safe topics where hell be on the other side hes a cheese lover. You hate cheese. Get on up there. Or if are somebody who thinks covid restrictions should have been thrown a year ago, hes also happy debate you. So just heads up for that. I will note that while youre thinking about this, i have a blurb on the back where i refer many as one of the toughest interviews i did in the white house. So just prepare yourself. Make some notes, and youll have your time. So i want to start because everybody in here may own the book or maybe their potential book buyers and book buyers for their friends. Why do you need to know to win a debate . What is goal . Its a great question and thank you, everyone, for coming out. I realized how popular you were, jen, till i saw this crowd as i picked the right to have conversation with special thanks to everyone standing up. I came to politics at last year for my friend rabia book launch and i had to stand up whole time. And i was and i was really annoyed. So thank you all for coming and standing up we appreciate you. Look, i say in the introduction to the book, people translate. Oh, i like to argue. I did i did it on a colleague. Lawrence odonnell interviewed me on monday and i said, i dont like arguing. And a lot of people say we dont. We try and avoid them. And i quote, dismissing out i quote Dale Carnegie in the book saying avoid arguments that you avoid rattles. I think most people actually enjoy arguments. They enjoy winning them. The problem is they dont always win them. And if you lose argument, obviously youre not going to enjoy doing it. So im of the school of thought that believes Everyone Wants to win an argument. Everyone at some point in their life, needs to or has to win an argument and then everyone can be taught to win an argument and thats why i set out to write the book, because i believe strongly that people say, oh, you know what you do or what i do, were born that way. Its a natural no, dont buy that at all. I think what we do can be taught can be learned. Ive learned over the years, people have been talk about stuff for thousands of years going back to aristotle and i just want it to come. I wanted to combine what was already out there with my own experiences and say to people, dont be afraid of this stuff. Anyone can do this. And thats why i wrote. I love that you said that. And you i have talked about this that sometimes people think to you, just like we all came out swinging, right . Then we just swing people. And there is a huge of preparation that goes into it. Its almost the most important part. You talk a lot about this in your so to have a show launching in two weeks. Just again tell us a little bit about your preparation for winning an argument or an interview, which sometimes is an argument on your show. So the book is divided into three sections. The first section is all about the fundamentals. Its all the stuff im talking about, the stuff you need to know about how to make emotional appeals, what you need to do with facts, what i call your receipts, which you know all about and you need to do in terms of listening, because listening is important. Also ad hominem arguments which i mount a controversial defense for a little more for people whove read the what is an ad hominem ad hominem arguments the person not the argument when youre the High School Debate and my daughters High School Debate, you are taught play the bull, not the man. And thats great in theory, great on college. In real life, we all know have to play the man and the bull, right . That is just and i make the point because one of the main ways you win an argument is by asserting your credibility and diminishing your opponents. Aristotle called the ethos one of the three pillars of an argument. And therefore, when people say, well, you should just leave the person alone, just address the argument, thats nonsense. And i give examples in the book. If somebody has a history of lying, you should point that out. Dont trust that person. Thats an ad hominem argument. If somebody is paid by the fossil fuel industry to deny Climate Change, you should point out that theres a conflict of interest and. So on. So in the first out of the book, i point out all these kind of fundamentals in the middle third, i have fun. Its the a section some trips dont get to the middle. The beginning is good. Two tricks techniques, things to you out of a hole, things to kind of corner or knock off your adversary off balance. And then the third section is what i call what some people might call wb. Its kind of worthy but dull. Its practice, preparation, how to build confidence with all that stuff. Oh, sounds like homework. Theres actually a chapter on homework, but its probably the most important part of the book because i couldnt do what i do and you wouldnt be able to do what you do unless you put in those hours and that effort because. As i say, this is not natural stuff. This is stuff that requires preparation delivery. And i tell the story of many people in the book who we consider today to be great orators who didnt start out that way, whether it was winston churchill, whether it was i talk about demosthenes. Those of you who studied the age compared to most of these, was the greatest orator of greece is considered by some to be the father of rhetoric. The most of these could not give a speech in his twenties. He embarrassed in public in court he had a stutter and a stammer. He was short of breath. He built himself an underground batman style cave which he retreated into he even shaved off half his head so he would be too embarrassed to come of the cave. So he forced himself to stay down there, standing in front of a mirror, running back and forth with pebbles his mouth, to get past the stammer until he thought he was good enough to go out and take people on again. And today hes considered one of the Great Fathers of rhetoric. So i say if he can do it, if churchill could do it, if mlk do this, churchill, where did churchill practice . Churchill. Theres a story about his valet. Norman, who used to hear churchill murmur in the bathroom, in the tub and. He would run and say, sir, what can i get you . And he would say, norman, im not talking to you. Im addressing the house of commons. Churchill would practice his speeches. The topic is churchill. I tell the story in the book when he was a younger mp, tried to give a speech, the commons lost his place, went red faced. Im sure many of us have been there just, couldnt remember what was the next thing they wanted to say. And he got if you watch the house of commons is not like the house of representatives is much more furious Prime Minister is quite spicier little spicier belligerent and he got heckled down was so embarrassed that that would never happen to me again. So he spent the next 20, 30 years becoming the guy we now remember fight on the beaches, stand up to the nazis that, didnt come naturally to him. So give us a little sense of each stage. So you have a big interview coming up this sunday. Maybe you do. I dont know what it is. You can tell us all here. What are you doing to prepare for that starting so the one thing i do when i have an interview and i and i encourage this doesnt just apply interviews this applies to you have a big meeting in the boardroom tomorrow you have a big case in court if youre a lawyer have a big presentation in high school. I try and find every it sounds obvious i know it sounds like the department of bleeding obvious try to find that everything there is you could possibly find about the issue. The other person every i talk about in the book a technique called steel manning. We always talk about straw manning using the weakest possible argument against your opponent. Misrepresent to your opponents argument in a week. We dont do that. I mean you could do that during a debate to mock but when youre preparing for a debate, steel the arguments come up with the strongest possible argument on the other side that youre going to come up against. I always try and pride myself in knowing the other sides argument better than they do. If you can know the other persons arguing better than they do, then theyve got nowhere else to go and theres no surprises. You dont want to be surprised. In a live event on live tv in the middle of a boardroom presentation. So people again take this stuff for granted but it requires a lot of time. I talk about in the about role playing when i was at Al Jazeera English when we spent a long time on tv, longer than we have in cable news as, youll discover in a couple of weeks we would actually sit in roll play. So we had the we had former Israeli Foreign minister on the show, danny. I had a producer basically become danny ayalon for a week and she would come into meetings, she would be danny ayalon and i would treat her as danny ayalon. And she would basically her job was to go through all of his previous and know what his answers, all to various questions. It was almost like a shot. If says this, ill say this. If he says this, ill go there so that youll complete the whole thing is mapped out before people look at me, just winging it. How did he pull that . I wish i could take credit, so i just pulled it out. My memory. So its all planned out like calling her danny. Even after the show is over, i got so into it, but, you know, roped playing, brainstorming, steel, mining. I talk about all these techniques to get ready for that big event, do the homework, put in the time because it really annoys me as someone who does this for a living. The people go out there and think, well, you know, if im going to operate on a patient or if im going to do some of these tax plans, im an accountant, im going to do all the work. Im going to go to the poshest universities. Im going to get the best degrees, public speaking. Oh, i can just do that in half an hour. No put the same amount. And if its just as hard, if not harder, so youve done all the prep work, which is the whole point. Get to the interview. Whats like in the moment when you know, prepared for this moment and the person says something and youre like, i have the receipt in my back pocket and im so excited about this moment or describe it for me, but i but i love the way you describing it. You dont that moment because im pretty sure i saw you do that in the White House Briefing room with the foxes do see a few times they got the great the great napo baby of the White House Press corps. I saw psaki bums, but i enjoyed doing that many many bombs online. So i do enjoy doing them. I do. I talk about it in the book. Not going to pretend this book ill be theres no false modesty in this book. Sorry to say to you if you get about it, but i make it very clear that theres hundred books in the store. Im sure that will teach you how to negotiate and give a speech and, you know, do a presentation. Im not doing that. Im teaching how to win and im very ruthless about that. And im very open about and i say in the book, i get a lot of yeah, there is a high is a little adrenaline when interviewing john bolton and john bolton says. And i say to john bolton because i did the homework, went back and found his older speeches, i find him giving a speech to the mujahideen in iraq, the mek, which is a kind of nuts iranian cult opposition group, which people think is good because its against the iranian government. So we should support that group, that nuts. And hes gone and given speeches for money paid. So i asked no one ever asked him about this. So i said, okay, lets ask you about this. So i ask him and john, were having the interview and i say about the mek ukraine to be iranian, is it because they pay you ten gram to speech or whatever it is . How dare you suggest that i do that . No one buys john bolton, but they did pay you for your speeches when they were at prescribe terrorist organization. He says no, no. Hillary clinton, who im sure you love, she listed them. Yeah, but you gave a speech to them before they were delisted in paris in 2000, whatever it was. I have the date i have the u2. I went and watched it. We transcribed it john bolton. John bolton. Were on remote. John boltons like its broken up. No john bolton does the you said this interview would be 15 minutes and youre 15 minutes are up, sir. And im like, actually, ive got a clock in front of me. Were not at that time and that is a great moment to know that john bolton, who john bolton is, you know, is nobodys fool. What do you do about john . What smart guy hes been debating since the Yale Political Union is actually very good at interviews. Interviews dont get better. Thats a great moment to go. Okay. I have the receipt. He thinks hes out of here, but hes not out here. So those are great moments when you talk about in the book, you know, you know, gotcha questions. As a former president , im sure youve accused others of using gotcha. Sure. Its classic move from politicians. Oh, thats a gotcha question. Nothing wrong with a gotcha question. Thats good im trying to get you im holding it to account right now. My goal, i love the way people run away. Yeah, im trying to get you. I make no apologies for that. Right. Holding someone to account, catching them out. Fine. If youre inconsistent, youre dishonest. Im going to call you out. General flynn, before he went kind of full q and on ask and had the shortest national scrutinized career in American History. He came on my show. He was still a trump proxy at that time in the 2016 race and we had discovered that during the Obama Administration when you in the end. So in the end of the obama he was the head of the dia defense of perhaps Barack Obamas worst many decisions but he made Michael Flynn head of the Defense Intelligence agency. Flynn went from congress and we found a quote from a transcript where he talked about how Irans Nuclear program wasnt threat or some such formulation. So i decided to read those words out to my talk about it in the book, a way to kind of disarm your opponent is presenting them with their own words without telling them their their what people think. Thats below belt. Why is it below the belt . Its your work. Its not my job to remember that. Theyre your words. Its your job. So we read out the quote. Said what . He spent the whole shows in iran iran. With iran, we must be, you know, hawkish because i said, do you agree with people who say that Irans Nuclear program is not . No, i dont agree with that. I dont agree with at all. Those are your words that that was a moment some people they go cheer at Football Games thats me thats my mom. Yes yes thats my mother. I see the receipts and i have a chapter on. Theres Chapter Three of the book is all about the receipt. So always sure you have your receipts. Dont get into any argument discussion where you are not armed with risk and sometimes physical receipts. The whole freeze receipts. Whitney houstons line about receipts comes from actually wanting to see physical. Sometimes its great to have a document done that again in the briefing room. Youve pulled out. Ive got it here. I had in my pocket. I just accidentally just there you are so of the things you talk about in the book which really stuck with me is just this how where do you balance between fact books and charts and heart and emotion . I mean, in democrats bless all of them. And the umbrella, love a good chart and love. I mean, i dont know if you all remember the bending the cost curve stage of the Affordable Care act. That was the argument i was in the white house at the time i still dont know what that. Did you did you stay awake during the meeting. I barely but you know, there is a balance, right . Because you want to be fact based and have the receipts. But you also want to be flexible and agile. So whats that balance or how you how do you how would you define that . So the is you need facts. Im not kellyanne conway. Im not here to tell you that were going to post that alternative. Well, in fact in fact, one of the reasons i wrote the book is because we might come to is like there are so many people gaslighting us these days and bsing us and have ruined the art of the debate just by of beating the out of us with nonsense that you cant even have a good faith argument anymore. But in terms of the people who do to have a good faith disagreement, i say, look, facts are important. You need to have a solid, substantive backing to what youre saying, but that is not whats going to win. You dont know is ever convinced with a chart or and democrats bless them. The labor party in the uk where im from, its the same thing, very technocratic approach. If i can do one more pew poll data point, i will convince this voter if i can do it, if like think tank, if up your poll if i had just one more fact one more statistic you know hillary bless her heart in 2016. You know, up against donald trump. Donald trump understands you think about donald trump. He understands how to rouse people emotionally with all the worst emotions. But he knows how to rouse people emotionally, build a wall, lock up, ban muslims. We remember those lines today because to the point and they rouse something in you either kind of disliking or like Hillary Clinton has like a 17 point child care plan. Im sure was great. Im sure it would have improved childcare across america, but nobody was going to vote on that basis. No one was paying attention. Sadly, i wish we lived in a world where the person with the 17 point child care plan wins, but thats not the world we live in. Again, i say in the book, living the world as it not the kind of abstract High School College system thats great for housing. If youre a high school, college debater, great. But in the real world, thats not how it works. Have to have an emotional appeal. You have to be able to tell stories, engage with passion if its going to be heart versus the heart is going to beat the head. Nine times out of ten and again goes back to aristotle. Aristotle talks about logos, reason, he talks about ethos your personal credibility, but he talks about pathos, talks about the need to connect with peoples. The human brain is not hardwired to receive a bunch of statistics. Thats not how you convince your spouse or your to get anything done. You make an emotional appeal. But when we get into Public Policy and politics, sometimes we just say, i think democrats in because i dont know liberal Arts Education law degrees no idea but its this idea. In fact, we like you to rational we will rationally defeat you in the socratic method and unfortunately not how americans are or most people around the world are. They want to be inspired, ensue. They want to see righteous anger. I talked in the book about Michael Dukakis as a of case study. And, you know, you remember 1988. Yeah, theres a bunch of good debate where you talk about them in the book, a bunch of good examples where they prepped weeks probably and they just sort of. Yeah, i mean, a moment i give a lot of examples in the book, not just from my own career, but of american president ial ancient greece. Good practice and bad practice and bad practice. 1988 Michael Dukakis is up against bush senior. The debate begins in l. A. Bernard shaw, cnn first question because Michael Dukakis anti the Death Penalty, hes getting hit hard as being soft crime. Those of you old enough to remember, i say, which ones of you i think are old enough to remember. And dukakis is asked, what would you do if Kitty Dukakis wife was raped and murdered . Would you still not support the Death Penalty . Dukakis gives a three minute answer and i transcribe it in the book if you have the audio, but you can listen to the clip. Three minute answer where he talks about massachusetts crime rates. He talks about d. A. Law enforcement. He talks about planning a drug summit for the southern hemisphere. He talks about everything except. The fact that the guy just said his wife might have been brutally murdered. People want hear from their commander in chief. What is his reaction, his gut reaction to somebody saying his wife has been brutally murdered and he didnt do it he was cold, he was emotionless, he was flat. And he absolutely got destroyed. His own Campaign Manager said, i knew we had lost that night and. That is a problem. The democrats do that far often. And interestingly, Hillary Clinton, someone who was accused of being cold, etc. , some some of that was misogynistic of that was true. But you remember that beat barack obama in New Hampshire shortly after what after kind crying and people saying, wow, she engaged with voters. It was a restaurant. I dont think that was a coincidence. Dont think its a coincidence that of the six democrats in president ial in 21st century, the who lost were al gore, john kerry and Hillary Clinton. I dont think thats a coincidence. Oh, great. People, smart people, not the inspiring of orators and. Then you have barack obama in a different league. And joe biden, who bless him, is not the greatest of orators, but hes authentic. People think he speaks. Hes saying what he means. Hes not talking off talking points or teleprompter. So think i do think i mean, i think correlation is causation, but i do think that there is a link there. It comes to emotional appeal. So how do you think the art of winning an argument or debate has changed since trump on the political scene . Its awful. I mean, i say this as someone who loves doing this, who enjoys having people on my show. I people think, oh, you just want youre about outlandish, right . You want to have a bunch of interesting, eclectic, diverse guests thats we want to do i love having different voices. I hate soggy consensus, having a discussion. Everyone agrees. Right. Thats not how i was raised. I talk about it in the book. I come from a very disputatious household, explains a lot. I know. So i love having people who are going push back against me, disagree with me, and then that good faith i cant really do that anymore because i want to have conservatives on show. The only concern is you going to get a kind of the nevertrump that you see on msnbc already. Youre not because i have a hygiene role that i dont want to have election deniers on the show. I dont have Climate Change deniers on the show because im for arguing. But im not going to argue with people who dont accept reality. Thats the point. Theres no point arguing in that sense. So but it limits me. Right. Im limited and i dont know how long i can stick to that rule. We approach 2024 because if the entire modern Republican Party is now election deniers, does that mean we say we have no one from that party on the show . Thats a hard to make as a journalist in a two party system. Its a real dilemma, which we struggle with my team and i every day, but you know, they have room to go about question these people a lot. These people come on tv and they try steamroll you and i do a chapter in the book on its called beware the jewish galloper. And i talk about this technique called the gish gallop. You can call it a technique and it comes from evolution is called duane sorry evil creationist called gish, who used to debate evolutionists. I dont know if any of you have been on youtube and watch kind of a number of are either on evolution fact or fiction between a creationist and evolution about and the scientist always loses because scientist turns up and does hey ive got one more statistic. Its 22. I have a Peer Reviewed study and the other person is inspiring, funny and telling anecdotes. And chris was a master of this. He was very engaging, funny, and she would absolute he bombard whoever he was up against relentless chain of cherry pick statistics, quotes of context, misrepresented. But he would throw so many in a fast space of time that the scientists couldnt respond to all of them. And the neutral third party in the audience might say, well, i mean, the scientists are not responding to that. Maybe theres some truth in what hes saying, and thats the whole point of that technique. And donald has mastered the got it maybe knowingly or unknowingly has mastered the idea. You get overwhelmed with b. S. Steve bannon famously said, our opponents are not the media and not the democrats to the media and way to deal with the media is to flood the zone with. And that is what theyve done. They flooded it with excrement because for a while it was lets fact check everything he said. There was a debate about whether we shouldnt. There was he was going to be shown whether his tweets should be shown. But you cant fact check. Thats the problem. Daniel dale, who we both a cnn fact checker, probably the best fact check in america. Like theres a moment in, 2020 when he comes on don lemon show and i talk about it in the book and he just runs out of breath because does 2 minutes of this was false and this was false and this was false. But you cant do that every day. If you remember the first president ial debate in 2020, which im sure you do, versus trump. Chris wallace, whos a pretty good interviewer, cant control donald trump. Donald trump, i talk about in the book, he goes through 2 minutes of just nonsense claims. One after another, he tells lie every 9 seconds. In that two minute period, theres scenario in which joe biden, chris wallace, the entire White House Press corps could come on stage. I would not be able to say, lets go through each. You just dont the time. So i talk about that in the book what do you do when you have these people like giuliani and kellyanne and donald trump and others and the original duane issues passed away pushing this just overwhelm you with nonsense im sure come across that in daily life youve had people completely like where do i begin with all the nonsense i just heard. So i talk about in the theres a three part strategy i love the number three. Everything is in three. I have a chapter on why you always do everything in threes. I do everything in threes to my friends and family is great frustration. Three reasons three ways you can stop the jewish galloper number. One, you pick your battles and you dont try and rebut everything. Thats a fools errand. You pick the weakest, dumbest, most ridiculous claim, and you zero in on that, and you make the hell out of that so that the audience says, wow, thats a load of nonsense. Surely the rest of those arguments probably nonsense as well. Number, you dont you dont budge in our in our in our industry and our industry. Ive been there six months. Im in youre in youre in too many interviews. And ive said openly, move on too quickly and its always at fault. We live in a very time, poor environment. Youre going to youre going to have the go to break soon. Theres always an ad break coming. A lot of, you know, not enough time, cable tv and we move on. And the jewish galloper, the takes advantage of that because they know that they can say ten nonsensical things and either will one of them or you want, but youll just move on to your next question because it produces like one keep keep the interview moving. My position is dont budge, less is more. Dont do 20 questions, do two, but make sure they answer those two. So when i interviewed steve rogers, 2018, who was a trump adviser, sadly, captain america from Al Jazeera English, sadly so it could still happen i decided my team and i decided that were going to focus on one trump claim, which was at time he was saying u. S. Steel in on six new steel mills and they hadnt been on 69. They put out a statement saying we havent announced it, but trump knew no ones going to ask him. It was good fortune. Hes already moved on to the next line. So i said to his proxy, trump didnt announce 60. Thats thats false. Thats a lie. Oh, no, no. What he meant to say was, you know, steel is doing well. Yeah, but thats not what he said. He said he said a very specific number. He said six steel mills. Where are they still us. Steel says there arent any. Oh well manufacturing is doing so and he just kept dodging. I wouldnt move and i kept saying six. Where are the six steel mills . He said six. Hes lying isnt he. At one point steve, roger says to me, you watch the clip, its my pin tweet. Its a bit of fun. He says, just move on, literally, cause he never does because he started producing me just on. Youre 15 minutes are up, john bolton style. I said, no, im not going to move on. And this is the third point. This is what i said i said, because, you know, its a lie. Thats what youre doing here. The third point is call it out when is trying to b. S. You forget about all the other arguments in the book and just say, know what . This isnt a good faith argument. This is b. S. , right . Call out strategy. This is a gallup. This is you were trying to flood the biggest gallup doesnt discover unless read the book and you talk to someone elses read the book right which im sure you have and lets we divide up and we argue. But pulling it. Out because and the Rand Corporation makes another analogy. The Rand Corporation talks about putin. Hes a master of this. Also, if you saw his recent speech where he rambles everything from ukraine to communism to, transgender rights, Rand Corporation says when the russian fire holds a falsehood is on the fire hose of falsehood. Put raincoats on the people its aimed at. When your job is. If somebody is bsing everyone, its to protect the audience. You want to tell them, you want to make them aware of whats going on so that is its not easy to go up against a good scholar, but theres a reason why only people like Jonathan Swan have done a good job of actually interviewing trump. And i talk about swanns interview. Its hard and theres a silver, but i give a kind of my attempt at a strategy for how to take on the bsa. So weve talked a lot about kind of taking on the bsa and kind of, you know, dismantling arguments. But part of winning an argument as you talk about in here is also presenting good or positive or something that people can also bite their teeth into. This is sometimes a mistake made in politics. Whats the balance . Do you think for people on that in terms of what . Positive, negative . Yeah. Mean like how much does it apart your opponent versus presenting an alternative agree. So again i would say context matters hugely. So it depends where you are. Are in a formal debate in a university auditory. Liam, are you are you the evolutionist versus the creationist . Are you on cable news, a five minute hit . Are you in a courtroom trying to persuade a jury . Are you on are you in a president ial debate speaking the audience at home at all . I think you have to vary i talk a lot in the book about flexibility. People kind of become very rigid. There is no one style, no right answer. You have to decide. I even talk about in the book you have to vary your volume based on if i was talking to a very it was just you me and two other people in a room we would be having very conversation to this conversation if. We were on tv right now. We might be having a different tone. So your tone, your volume, your delivery all of that matters and yes, substance matters to you. You need to know who your audience is, is an audience who are kind of hostile to. Then you need to tailor your message in that that case, you need to say stuff that might appeal to them that might surprise them because they come with a kind of well, maybe i dont like him that what are you going to say to try and kind of catch them off guard and pleasantly surprised them . If its an audience of everyone you agree with, do you want to challenge their priors . Do you want to upset the conventional wisdom and say provocative . That makes them think so. It depends where you are. But yes, to your wider point, i talk about in the book, especially in the final chapter about the grand finale is you have to leave people with something substantive that they can take away and it doesnt happen again. It does have to be a fact or it can be a feeling, right . Theres a famous phrase in debating circles that people remember what you said, but theyll remember how you made them feel. And that is so important sometimes you watch people give a delivery, an argument, tv, a speech, whatever it is. And it kind of dribbles off at the end. Scarlett and im done. Thank you very much for your time. Dont do that. Thats what happens. This is your moment the end is the moment to really send them away with food for thought inspired, maybe a call to arms what should you be doing after this . So i definitely believe in more positive negative get people inspired. When i talk about trump does all the negative emotions he inspires people with kind of loathing of foreigners and anger is paranoia. Yeah, but theres light inspire them with life, with hope. Im all for that. But obviously if its some guy or some who has, you know, some bad faith person or some person whos trying to kind of trick people. Yeah, you know, use spicy sections, gets spicy in the middle, then the middle. So i know your wife is here. Shes better. Shes okay. Were going to call her up now. What you write in your book about how she actually arguments. For those of you who dont know, many, you can see how he would win arguments because i was like, ive been up since four in the morning, i need a cup of coffee just to make sure i can keep up with many. But your wife wins argument. So how does she when arguments start, her tactics is well, first of all, shes much smarter than me. So brainpower, intellect matters. But ill say one thing here. Let me let me use my wifes example to make a way for a lot of people snarky about the title of the book. Right. Preet . Last night in new york made this point about should you win . A lot of people on twitter phrase like philosopher should win every argument isnt that bad. Who said yes, youre my friend . Yeah, sure. Thats bad. Yeah. Debating is about learning and, you know, interactions. You should you should be getting stuff that great. Im at the point of the book, im not telling you to go out unnecessarily. You win every argument. Im saying, heres how you can win every argument should you choose to. Just as if id written a book called drive car. Im not telling you to go out by every car in the world and drive. Im saying heres how you could if you wanted to. So the example ill give my wife is maybe you might be able to beat spouse in an argument. Im saying just dont. Oh, maybe just avoid it. Thats a little bit. Hes saying he throws the game sometime. Im not sure about you, but to a famous White House Press secretary, i couldnt possibly. Ill come back. Ill come back. Youll come back. So were going to get to your questions in a moment. And as per the instructions, the beginning, if you would like to ask a question youd like to debate, if you hate cheese, if you hate covid restrictions or anything, you can just line up right here . Movies, marvel movies. You should joe biden run for office. You get jens take. Yes, everyones too old. So they dont think that. Im just making fun of it. Okay. You can line up at this ad. Dont be shy, but line up here and well and matt is going to take your questions but as youre doing that have a little rapid fire so kind of up people okay whos the best debater today you mean in politics what take it wherever you want to take it, its your show. So because its my book, im going to plug the book. In the book i talk about Elizabeth Warren and how she turned to las vegas. And ill say this about elizabeth. Whatever you think about warren, you might think shes too lefty. You might think she dont like whatever it is. One thing im hoping we can all in room agree that no matter what she does between now and the day she meets her maker is that she saved the world from Michael Bloomberg in 160 seconds, in one way, she destroyed Michael Bloombergs ridiculous president ial candidacy in 59 seconds. I talk about it in the book. She turns up in vegas. First answer, she goes for a billionaire who calls women pigs. No, im not talking about trump. Its genius. Her team were hugging chairs in the green room and jumping and down wikipedia that night. Bloombergs page to say, killed on stage in las vegas by Elizabeth Warren. So i would say as as politicians, warren, whos been a whos who was a high debate champion and went to university on debate scholarship, is certainly up there. You know what else she did . I mean, she lots of plans. Maybe more than Hillary Clinton. I dont know. They could have planned on to plan for that. But messaged she has a plan that which you would just meet people events and i went to a bunch of the early states people would be like well im for her because she has a plan for and its like, which is funny if you read the no, but she has a plan for all of it. Im like, thats amazing, which is funny because four years later, nearly three years later, will some of the daily has a book out this week called the plan. Its all about and on because quote on people obsessed with the plan. The plan is unfortunately taking a whole different take on a bet. And weve got to take it back. Okay. Who would you to debate this is maybe it could be someone on your show could be a debate at an event someone ive always wanted to interview and really grill and, go at it back and forth because i both loathe them and respect them as intellectually. Im intrigued. Im intrigued. Is tony blair is so is this month is the 20th anniversary of the iraq invasion. Blair and bush happily gave the world and george bush i was saying george bush would be a kind of pointless interview. I mean disrespect, but like shooting shooting fish in a barrel tony blair. Tony blair is a very smart guy and ive watched him be interviewed on iraq for two decades. And no one really lands a blow. He always hes hes the great teflon tony always slips out of it. Always. While my intentions were good. Well, the intelligence and i would love to kind of go back forth with him, with him nowhere else to go on the invasion, on the lies that were on the lives that were lost and hold that guy to account because no ones really held him to account 20 years. I mean, id watch that tony. Blair if youre watching cspan, if youre on twitter. Or youre in the were politics and prose. If youre in washington, were ready to do it right here. What is the issue . Public opinion is starkly different from your point of view. Oh, thats a good question, because on most issues i have the people know, i guess right now a contentious one is i support Defunding Police in this country. And unfortunately, the polls of the American Public are not there yet. And its a tough choice and people in your party, as you know, in the democratic body, in the administration, youve sort of run away this argument because they dont they just dont think you should defund the police but or they do but they dont to say it because its political suicide they think and or theyre worried about crime in their communities go on oakland or i didnt say anything about crime. I said Defunding Police brutality which surely you agree with. Well, Defunding Police, but i said Defund Police brutality. Then you change the meaning of this, which is the whole point of the book youre against in your no, no, no, no, no, im not gallup because im not overwhelming revulsion. Im reframing the debate, which is the chapter on judo moves, which is when making a case to find out on your terms, liberals and lefties for far too long fight on the terrain of conservatives. And i think thats mad to find as you want. For example, i talk about i say in the book, when i talk making a case, the Police Argument is a very hard argument to win, but dont talk about it in of, you know, Police Crime Rates levels, etc. Talk about it in purely terms. Tell me which americans supports funding the beating of. Tyree nichols, find me an american, is it . Yes, i support funding that. Thats my argument. Show me that piece. Okay. All right. I think ready for some questions . Go ahead. Okay. I would like to know. Which debate you lost . Oh, and why . And to who. So well stay from personal household debates. So i so, i am i did a debate i did a debate on. A couple of summers ago. I think which one is worth more interesting . One that they. Well, a couple of things. One is i did a i did a debate with, a Climate Change denier years ago. I would never have Climate Change deniers on my show now. But then i was cocky. Ten years ago that i could do a Climate Change denier and it was just purely your scalp. It was a disaster. Like it was just nonsense. One after another. Its conspiracy theories. You know, you question this. Thats part of the conspiracy you cite this study. Well, theyre all in on it. It didnt go anywhere. And i was embarrassed that id used up an hour of air time on my show to platform, a conspiracy theory. So thats the kind of ones i would say avoid. And if i wrote another book, one chapter in this book is when to walk from an argument, when not to have the argument, but an actual proper debate that i lost, i did a debate for intelligence squared, which is a debating organization, the uk and the us on Angela Merkel ago during the height of the euro crisis when greece was really suffering and it was about how is Angela Merkel destroying. And i was making the case that she was and it was intelligence squared. Its another reminder that have to know your audience. I turn up at this debate and im pushing kind of you know paul krugman and lefty themes about keynesian spending why its austerity destroying europe the entire crowd is paid £70 for a ticket or whatever it is even the greeks in the crowd are kind of like greek tycoons. Well, i guess we need to destroy our country. And i was like, this is not going anywhere from to not 20 minutes. And i was like, this audience, maybe i could win this debate somewhere else. But in this whole tonight with these people got no chance. So it is important to the very first chapter of the book is called know your audience. It is nothing is more important than to understand who your audience are, what they want to get out of something. What you can that audience, how you can identify with them because if you nail that Everything Else is easy here. Go tip number one. You can skip the first chapter. Just go ahead. All right. Which politician do you appreciate the most far as their debating skills . So i mentioned Elizabeth Warren already. I mentioned tony blair already. Lets pick someone else. I actually think so. If you take debating skills interesting and say interviewing says i would say alexandra if you watch her on the house floor separate to tv if youve seen some of her performance on the house floor, it is you know use the kids means does bring the fire it really really passionate and i love passion i think i hate most about politicians on the liberal left is when they are technocratic bureaucratic and managerial and she if youve seen some of her recent speeches, including her speech if you want to youtube it, her speech the day republicans voted to remove ilhan from the Foreign Affairs committee was a piece of oratory and she it was it was you watch and you feel something that for me is how you say thats the emotional appeal thats going to be any kind of technical argument. Well, you didnt remove matt gaetz or you didnt know that what she came up with in terms of bigotry and standing together with marginalized committees was a very powerful and kind of got your skin on it. Thats a good one. Youve given everyone homework. Its its good. Okay. More whats just go ahead youre watching youtube what i do in my family. So first of all ive been a fan of yours for a while so its an honor for me to be. Thank you very much. And so so one pattern ive noticed across your career is you on several occasions interviewed noam chomsky, who was a legendary professor, and you on multiple occasions you referenced his most famous book, manufacturing on how the media to manufacture consent for an uninformed American Public to get them to vote for candidates who are, i guess, only serve the interest of the elite. So across your career you know, your records have been very clear. Your youre a staunch critic of israel. Youre a staunch of human rights. My question going, im guessing, im guessing in my stomach with homework. Is that your staunch critic of saudi arabia and in right violation you you criticize u. S. Military camps you have the best positions in afghanistan iraq, libya, others. So my question for you is how and how does an antiestablishment figure like you of work for a corporate establishment such as msnbc . So let me so so let me ask you this. You will choice. You dont want to fire as a weird was that a question or a speech . No it was a question because but normally when you ask a question, you wait. They dont so im actually. Okay, lets do it this way. Let me ask you about how do work for them . You tell me, how do i work for them . Well, youre a pure broadcaster on that, on nbc, which is owned by comcast, one of the largest telecommunication. But of all the issues you just mentioned, which ones if i stopped talking about since i went to work for msnbc. But can you repeat the question . You listening happily, im good at repeating questions. Im you listed a bunch of issues that said id done over my career. And then you said and now you work for msnbc. Im saying of all issues. You mentioned israel, saudi arabia, militarism, libya etc. Which ones have i stopped talking or stopped railing against since i joined msnbc in august of 2020 . Now, well, for example, last year when the issue between israel gaza was happening, you had a 1 to 15 things a w an ambassador or Something Like that. Yeah. In israel. And youve had on and you just couldnt shut up about hamas and stuff like that. So that very clearly, you know, youre, you know, and at the end of the end of the debate, you ask him, do you support a two state solution . He didnt really give you the answer on that. Well, thats an example. Thats a good example. Yeah. Yeah, good. I that there you go ending an agreement so my position is i have the similar i have the same criticism the Corporate Media have always had. I have the opportunity to work for Corporate Media. Its a great blessing and opportunity. I get to address millions of people on platforms that i normally wouldnt have access to. For example, i was on air in prime time on msnbc doing all in the week that joe biden made one of his best decisions but most criticized was to end the war in afghanistan in august 2021. And i was able to get more afghan voices on tv that week than probably any cable show cable channel has ever done in the space of five days. So for me i have all my criticisms, i know about all the constraints, but my position is, hey, as long as they let me do what im doing, ill keep doing it. And when they stop letting me do what i do, ill stop doing it. All right. Thank you for your question. Okay. Hi. So you mentioned the Jonathan Swan interview, which brought back lots of great memories for me, thats another piece of homework. Its very good. Is there much in the audio which you can also watch on hbo . So i think thats a really great example of someone using the tactics you mentioned to really turn the tables on a jewish galloper. Yes, excalibur. So, so well, so that, if i remember correctly, former President Trump was actually the one holding up the graphs. Right. He was pulling out his folders and holding up graphs and some great memes came out of that as well. What learnings can modern journalists and hosts take away from that interview when . They are choosing to interview more these jewish gallopers and election deniers and so on and forth. Its a great question and i actually used jonathans interventions as a good friend of mine. Weve talked about the interview many times. I used that interview, seen the Jonathan Swan donald trump interview. Yeah, good. A lot of people have seen it with the famous jonathan game, the meme everyone seems to memes and he won an emmy for it, which he deserved and he did the three part process which i mentioned. He he picked his bottle. He said, lets talk about death numbers. Lets talk about the statistics case. Fatalities. He didnt budge. When trump brought out the graphs, trumps like, look at south and most interviewer would like screw south korea. Ive got another question on one of them goes, okay, lets at south korea and not trump thinking south korea what do i do normally . Trump used to like next trump doesnt know. South korea is like, whos the south korea, by the way . Why interview is why did interviews never ask trump just fact questions . People would say, what would you trump i would think just fact questions. Mr. President , the nato stand for what is the im i mean, when are you heading for wakanda . Those are the questions i would ask in the White House Briefing room, too. If had a chance anyway. But but swamp swan. Swan did that. Hee hee hee hee hee. He picked his bottle. He didnt. When trump threw the papers at him and, he called it up. He said, look, this is our numbers about. We have much worse that this is what youre doing youre just trying to railroad me and whats is people did learn the swan interview but the problem the swan interview was 2020 it was the end of the trump presidency. It wasnt until the very end that a lot of interviews started wising up to trump tactics, standing up to him using words like the lword, liar, rword, racist, which to many journalists away from. For the first three years, the president and i know my good friend wajahat ali is here somewhere in the crowd as well. And hes made this point that like a lot of us, there were a bunch of us for years saying, hey, trumps of fascist and racist and dishonest and you cant say stuff like that. Thats extreme youve got trump derangement syndrome and its like, oh, january six. Do we all agree with that . So some of us were saying this stuff for a long time. Jonathan swan did that great interview. Chris wallace also did a great interview. Trump in 2020 but with all the very end now the big question is what happens now in 2024 . Do you still platform him . Its a good question. And i think journalists have to think long and hard how theyre going to platform him, how the interview is going to happen. Do you do them live . Please, god, no. At least pretape them. So you can somehow interject with facts and figures. Jonathan karl of abc did a very interview with Arizona Election and i want my forgetting name kari lake kerry how. Can you forget kari lake she still shes still protesting the election. She did and he did it pretaped a sunday show and he cut away every she said some nonsense. The voice of god narrator came. Thats not true, actually. Da da da. And that was great. I think we should do more of that with people who just are serial fabricators . No, lots of tips there. Oc whos next . Hi, amanda. Ive always wanted to ask you this question because i think any politician who agrees to come on your is out of their minds. And because are a chair you are terrifying. And so you must have amazing producers that can convince people who know theyre going to be destroyed to come on. Yes, but so my question is my question is, are there people who, like you, have you are not being able to get because theyre so scared to be interviewed by you name some names. Yes. But im not going to tell you their names. Im still trying to get them all. So what weve been hes so scared of me. He wont come out. Thats not really going to work in the persuasion angle. But no, look, i have great producers. Last night in new york, my msnbc team came out. It was really fun, too. They were watching me and i was giving them the credit they deserve because they make me look good with all that research and prep. And i think another. Friend of mine here, lucas radical, is at the back. Hes Al Jazeera English producer who i worked with for years. He knows a lot of those. Al jazeera, they got their ears chewed by guests like theres guy called ryan coles, who i mention in the book who used to be his now in london he was the guest booker and his job was to walk people out of the studio to the street so awkward whole guy it was so like Julia Gillard the former australian Prime Minister comes on the show she comes on to promote some initiative girls in africa that shes promoting. For me. And i say to the team, i want to ask one question on immigration. You can start one immigration quest at the end. My one quest at the end was how did she sleep at night with blood on our hands from all the boats that have drowned because of her policies. And were sitting each other at me, her cameraman, and no one else in the room. And the interview is over. Thank you for joining me. How long are you in town for . When are you in dc . Tell shes looking at me like she wants to kill me. Ryan in and has to do the long walk of shame with her team all giving dirty looks Vitaly Klitschko i talk about the torture so straight he on the show you know Vitali Klitschko the current mayor of kiev valiantly defending a city against russian aggressors. Former heavyweight champion of the world foot ten has arms, you know, the size of my entire body. And he was mayor of kiev and he on the show. And i persuaded and trump is very hard to get on the show we still try to get him on that show and he does want to come back on the show for some reason. He came on and i asked him, he said to me, my english, not so good. You speak slowly. Sorry, i can only do ivan drago. I cant do i cant do klitschko. And i said, all right, i slowly and for the first few minutes, the interview, i was like, you know, british tourist on holiday. Can you show me the way to the colosseum and i was very slow but then after a few minutes i was in the heat of the moment i went back to my normal fast pace speech and he was getting annoyed and i couldnt notice and. Then i asked him, does he is he linked to the ukrainian, which was accusation at the time . So the interview ends and hes furious because. Ive spoken fast and ive accused him of being a criminal and he stands up me six foot ten he said you said would speak slowly and im thinking is he going to hit me. Yeah and if he hits me am i going to die. But is it going to go viral. Horrible thoughts to be having at the same time this lulzsec very sick but then ryan to walk him out of the room. Oh, hes no tough. Ron paul ryan is in london. He fled the country. Understandable. All right. I know can you record this . You dont, my friend. I forgot to ask him a voice recording. Its okay to videos. Good to have all about when youre speaking to fabulous whatever. You are speaking so much. Huge fan of both of you. So thank you for looking at me directing that. I feel that my heart is beginning flutter. So let me get this out. Whether its from general me because half and half split middle. So love it. Thank so i had a question because my friend who i had another friend i invited come could not make it but im asking this on her behalf as well because i was just having conversation with her about this topic and for her and i both. We feel that there are so many times when we host and possess an expansive and variety in terms of our knowledge on topics that can be so extensive. However not to such a degree that becomes specialty. So perhaps this phrase known as a jack, all trades kind of thing, and we were kind of wrestling with this idea of how to argue. And i dont know if perhaps you address it in the book, but to crowd tonight how do you find yourself tackling an argument with someone who perhaps could have more who can have more information on something that you do find yourself to be masses empirical science. This is kind of my life i never feel i not that i never feel i dont enough french but sometimes im argue with someone who has views that perhaps i dont with but because of the lack of Information Research space, the fact i cannot carry on and i want to because no one wants to talk about that in the book. Okay. Its its its a challenge for all of us jen is going to have it when our show launches i have it right now on my shoulders. So when i was doing i was doing a nightly until very recently a nightly live show hour a night and my my my mother bless i was watching it on youtube in the uk and shes like, how do you i dont understand how you have time for how do you know, how do you prepare for all this. I have a great team. She goes, how can you be . You know, i know you dont know all this stuff. My mom, shes my mum. She wanted me to be a doctor. She knows i dont anything about covid and talking about medicine and Public Health and, uh, every asian child feels that not becoming a doctor and its really important. I talk about the book, the whole chapter on doing your homework. Theres a whole chapter on preparation, and its so ive got i talk about in the book having to interview people like Steven Pinker for, example, huge intellect, huge, huge. Its 100 times smarter than me. Wrong on almost everything but smart. Go right and i have to debate with him. He comes on my show and, you know, we prepare as much as we can. Paul bremer, ill give the example i give in the book is. Paul bremer, some of you may remember paul revere. He was the viceroy that george bush sent to run iraq. And again, again, whatever. Well, whatever you think about paul bremer, smart guy, and he turns up to do an interview me an hour and ten long interview on iraq and his legacy in iraq. This guy literally ran right and. Been to rot for ten years at that point, five years. And this is years after it. So what do we do . My team and i, we go through we read his memoir. We read other peoples memoirs who were in iraq at the same time we read all of the us inspector generals reports on waste of money during the iraq occupation. We go through all that stuff. We spend days preparing to the point where ive got a stack of papers, to the point where in the interviews over and hes sweating. Im sweating, and he leans forward and its a great move. He says, nice research. He looks out. It looks like a nice research. That is a great moment for someone like who is. I define myself as a jack of all trades. Im not specialist on anything. I try and kind of keep interest in lots of interesting things. And that again, the simple answer to that solution is you got to put in the work that youve got and actually can help you. There is an advantage. I took it as a chapter in the book called judo moves how you knock people off balance. If somebody comes thinking, i am the greatest authority on this subject and you pull out three things i hadnt or three studies they hadnt noted, that immediately gives you an advantage in that position and they all have newfound respect for you in the audience will have super respect for you thanks so much. Thank you. You got it. Thank you. All right. How much how much time do we have left . Just so i dont know who im asking an authority. Theres like a voice of god somewhere else. Okay, im too long in mind. Im being very short. Im trying. No, no, no. I just want to make sure we get the ball. Try to squeeze two more. Yeah. Quick questions. Answers. Yes. All right. Also, a long time admirer of both of you. Thanks for doing this. Your 62nd rant. Frequently you go viral. You simply do not stutter. Theres so, so effective and lethal in your arguments. I was wondering if you could take one of those 2 minutes, two on the spot, whatever want 60 seconds either either either i was thinking earlier i was thinking either maybe its always a rant about something thats wrong in the world. So maybe like a rant for 60 seconds about something that you find positive in american politics or 60 seconds on whatever is bothering you right at this moment. Oh, ill play the role timer. So. All right. Going to say. Here we go. Ready, set, go. I am 43 years old and love living in this country because i love older people who my kids age right now, my kids are 15 and ten. I love young people in america because young people are saving in america. And my evidence for that go look at the 2018 midterms. Go at the 2020 election, go look at the 2022 midterms. Every study been done. If you go to john della volpe at harvard, he will tell you that young people with a crucial democrats say, oh, young people dont vote only. Old people vote. No, not true. Young people turned in major levels. If you take young voters out of the electorate, democrats dont win the house in 2018. Dont win the presidency 2020. Dont save the senate in 2022, and therefore young people are actually inspiring us because. Theyre young people are apathetic. Theyre always on tiktok, always doing nonsense. Actually, young people out there fighting for abortion rights, fighting for civil rights, fighting for minority rights, fighting for transgender rights, fighting for the people who cant speak for themselves. And so i say young people is what inspires about america . Because i dont care what the older generation is doing, building walls and voting for donald trump. Its the young people who are going to save this country, save democracy because it needs saving, oh goodness, back in to that. Back in. Dallas very good. Okay. Hi, im amanda and i forgot my question. Just getting i am Communications Director on the hill. So i have worked you before. Thank you very much. And i admire you. Thank you. And i work for congresswoman betty mccollum. So i guess betty mccollum, whos one of the few members of congress who truly stands up for palestinian human rights in, this country stands up every i search for her an honor to have been on your broadcast before. But my question is not about that. My is about gender and i would just love to know is there anything in your book, do you do you cover the gender Politics Around making a case . And i would actually love to hear from you as john, if i would. Yeah, i sadly, i dont i dont address it head on. I will say one thing. There are far too there are far too few women in this book. I talk about warren and others, especially because some of the ancient examples are all men. Like there werent many women debating with socrates and plato back in the day. Sadly, im glad things changed. Or at least, well said. One thing i would say is when you talk about gender, you talk about the way that certain arguments when made by women would not be taken the same way made by men. Thats 100 true. We saw i mentioned Hillary Clinton earlier, Elizabeth Warren. One thing i do say in the book and it might not be the answer looking for, but i talk about myself as im a woman, obviously, but im a muslim. Im a member of a minority which has its own, comes with its own baggage. I talk in the book about rmf, which resting angry muslim face when im paying attention, it looks like im angry. Literally and the question the guest is talking about, prisons are like unique. It looks like you want to get in. And therefore i have to deal with some of the baggage that comes with the kind of peoples stereotypes, preconceptions angry muslim man. And one thing i say in the book is and again, this is not a good, honest judgment of a much more and hopeful answer to end with. I say, look, you just have to deal with it. You know what . You know, if youre trying to win the in that moment, youre going have to save the point scoring the double standards, hypocrisy for another day. You have to do it. I it you have to be flexible. You have to be nimble. You have to adapt to your situation and you have to use it to your favor. Ive done it in my own case. For example, when im in front of a conservative crowd that thinks this muslim person doesnt like the west, i will go out of my way to talk about kind of the western canon and the magna carta and our constitution, because that throws them off balance. Theyre not expecting the muslim do to say that. But youre right, there is a gender there is a minority discourse. Not everything in this book probably in that way. Maybe thats the sequel i love that. Its such a good. Okay. Oh, man. Heres what i would say and i can only speak to my own experience with this. When i was working for barack obama, i was the only female spokesperson in the press office. And i always felt and these were many people who were my friends then were my today, but i always like maybe i had to replicate who they were right if their approaches were, im going to yell at reporters and im going to slam the phone and then im going to brag about it or im going to send like a f few blog, curse laden email. And thats going to be how i am. And i always thought, dont that doesnt feel really like me. But if im going to be like them, be tough in this business, have to be like that. It probably took me turning 40 to realize i dont have to be like that and maybe talks about this as much as. Its not about gender. Its about being authentic self and your own authentic of of how make those arguments so to i would much rather not come out hot screaming but no i have the in my back pocket and im just wait like a bear for slaughter for somebody to walk into that. But i go pete. Doocy but i dont have to do it with like fbombs. I dont have to do it by slamming my phone. The other thing i would tell you is that my own experience was also not all women, but a lot of women. And certainly for me, you have to believe you can do it. And there is a confidence gap, right, of thinking. I mean, when i worked for barack obama and i became the spokesperson in traveling with him on the 2012 campaign, i was like, how am i going to do this . Theres no one else advising him. Its me and its like robert gibbs, who was the press at first press ever said to me, you know, i cant a southern accent, but just like play along with that, like you just got to act like you belong there. And then certain point people believe you and thats its pretty simple, but you didnt you werent advising a president until you were you werent making an argument television until you did it. And sometimes you just have to like do a little superhero fit, you know, pose. I dont know if anybody watches ted lasso in this room, but i okay you know the scene were in and then ill wrap because i but you know the scene when rebecca who is the female owner of the soccer team is going to go in and talk to the male soccer players and she does this like big where shes like a tree. I used to do that before the briefing because its a psychological thing where youre saying to myself, i got so figure out what your is. Find your authentic argument. Doesnt to be like other people. And then just, you know, fake it till you make it a little bit believe you can do it in the book. If you make it. All right. Well, i think that wraps our program many this book which i read several months ago, its phenomenal. I learned a lot in this book. There are so many key components. This book i still dont want to go on many show and i did fox a lot. So its amazing highly recommend it. I know you did. You know when you came on the show with me when i was sitting in for the 11th hour and i grilled you and all your fans trolled me all night, how they how dare speak to jen psaki like Brian Williams would have had so much more right anyway. I think youre going to sign some book, right . Okay great. Well, thank you all for coming. This is an amazing im proud of your amazing thank you, especially you standing be i dont know what it is but s almost medieval. Watch the full program at any time online at booktv. Org search Victor Davis Hanson or the title of his book the dying citizen. Weekends on the cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History to the documents americas stories and on sundays booktv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan2 come from these Television Companies and more including comcast. Are you thinking this is just a Community Center . Comcast is partnering with a thousand Community Centers to create wifi enabled as it sounds so students can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. Comcast along with these Television Companies supports cspan2 as a public service. Good evening i Mary Ann Brownlow and welcome to hill center and to talk of the hill with house bill press, veteran journalist, political commentator, author. Before hill center really even opened bill had an idea that he wanted to sort of create and host an indepth conversation that he