A bump heads introduced mehdi hassan win every argument the art of debating, persuading and public speaking paper they were debating Critical Issues with friends mehdi will teach you how to sharpen your speaking skills. Mehdi hassan is an awardwinning journalist and the host of the mehdi hassan shorn msnbc. As long as the former columnist and podcast are in a former presenter of aljazeera english in an oped appeared in the near times in the washington post. He will be in conversation with Jennifer Psaki when the best im goingec to restart. One of the best press secretaries ever. As fitting accolade. [applause] a fitting accolade given her tenure as the white houseco pres secretary covering press secretary covering one of the most complex. In modern president ial history. Sake has a show lunch and msnbc in two weeks inside with jen psaki at 12 00 p. M. On sundays. [applause] please welcome me in joining politics and prose mehdi hassan and Jennifer Psaki. [applause] what a great crowd here. This is amazing. First i want to start by giving you a little heads up that during the q a portion youll have the opportunityty to debate the k mehdi of people who know m know they arere some topics held beyond the other side of issues. Get on up there or if you are somebody who was hell be happy to debate it but i will note while you are thinking about this i referred to mehdi is oneom of the best in the whie house so prepare yourself and have nothing of the time. Maybe they are potential book buyers and book buyers are our friends. Why do we need to know how to debate what is the goal . Its a greate, question and thank you everyone for coming up. Ive never liked how popular you you were jen psaki until i saw this. I picked the right conversation. And everyone standing up i y cae to politics and prose. Thank you all for coming in standing up and i appreciate you. People say dont like to argue and i did the mutual colleague said i dont like. Arguing. They are missing out. I tell them avoid arguments like you avoid a rattlesnake. If you lose an argument obviously you dont enjoy doing it so im of the school of thoughte that Everyone Wants to win an argument and everyone ate some point in their life needs toward how to win an argument and everybody can be taught to win an argument. I believe strongly that people say oh what do you do . Youre born that way your natural. I dont buy that. What we do can be taught and can be learned. Ive learned over the years and people like aristotle, wanted to combine what was ready out there with my own experience. Dont be afraid of this. Anyone can do this. I love that you said that. Have talked about this some people think we just came out at the woman knowing how to debate people. You talk a lot about this in your book. Tell us about your preparations for winning an argument or an interview with sometimes as an argument on your show. The book is in three sections of the first section is about fundamental how to make emotional appeals and dealing with facts like receipts. And what you need to do in terms of listening. Listening is important also. Give us a little more for people who have read the book could. Ad hominem is attacking in realth life we all had to play e man in the bowl. I make that point because one of the main ways you winse an argument is by asserting your credibility. One of the three pillars of an argument of people say just dress the argument. If somebody has a history of you should point that out. Thats an ad hominem argument and if someone is paid by the fossil fuel industry and their fighting Climate Change is to point that out. In the first part of the book i look at the fundamentals in the middle part its a spicier section. Dont forget the beginning. Its how to knock out your adversary off balance in the third section will call some people call worthy. , preparation. That sounds like homework and i also do a chapter on homework. I couldnt do what i do unless youth put in those hours. As i they say this is not natural stuff. This is about preparation and delivery and i tell the story of many people in the book who are considered today to be great orators and didnt start out that way. I talk about the greatest orator thought by some to be the father frederick to he could not give this speech. He embarrassed himself in public. He had a and stammer he was short of breath and he built himself an underground that man style k. Which he retreated into an deep and shaved half his head so hed be too embarrassed to comean out a pretty forced himsf to state on their standing in front of mirror running back and forth with pebbles in his until he thought he was good enough to takean people on it today he is considered to be gray. They cann do it and if mlk cano it theres a story about churchill. He used a murmur and the top and hed runs a sir what can i get and he said norman im not talking to him addressing the house of commons. Churchill would practice his speech and i tell the story in theiv book when he was a younger mp trying to give a speech in the commons and lost his place and couldnt remember what was the next thing they want to say and if you watch the house of commons its not like the house of representatives. Its much more serious. Aer little spicier and he got heckled. He said this will never happen to me again. It didnt come naturally to him. You give us a sense of each stage. You have a big interview coming up this sunday. What are you doing to prepare for that starting tomorrow . The number one thing i do when i have been interview guest this applies applies to be at the big meeting in front of the g boardroom or big case in court if youre a lawyer or big presentation in high school i try to find out, it sounds obvious try to find out everything you can possibly find out about the issue every person every argument. Talk about in the book using the weakest possible argument. Dont do that. You can do that during the debate but when youre preparing for a debate come up with the strongest possible argument that the other side will ever come up against. I pride myself in knowing the other sides argument better than theyou do. They have got nowhere to go and youre on live tv. People take this step for granted that it applies a lot time. Talk about roleplaying. We would sit and r roleplay. Yet the former Israeli Foreign minister on the show. Basically she would come to meetings and she begin a dialogue and she basically her job is was to go throughout the previous interviews and note the various questions. If he says this, ill say this in the pieces this, ill go there. People are like how did he do that . Its all planned out. Roleplaying brainstorming. Talk about all these techniques toto get ready for that big biga fan and do the homework and put in the time. It is a noise noise and summon this is for living people out and they say im going to operate on. Im going to go to the precious universities and get a degree. Its just as hard. Done the prep work which is the point get to the interview. Whats it like in the moment when you know you prepare for this moment and the person says something in her like im so excited about this moment. I love the way youre because you dont know the moment because im pretty sure i saw you do that with f the white house room with the White House Press corps. Andnd the mehdi on line. To make it clear in the book they are there 100 books in thee store and share that it with teachin to negotiate if the speech into a presentation. Im not doing that. Teaching how to win and im very open about that. I say in the book there is a high. There is a turn on when im burying john john bolton i said that john bolton because i did my homework and i found this all the speeches and i found him giving a speech to the mujahideen he and Iranian Opposition group. Hes giving paid speeches for money. No whenever asked about this so i asked him john bolton what about the mak . Did they pay you 10 grand a speech or whatever it is . Huddy dare you suggest that i do that. No one buys john bolton but did they pay you for your speech is . No, hillaryye quentin delisted them. What about that for a date alist did you and we transcribed at . John bolton is like, you said youve said this interview at the 15 minute and your 15 minutes are up sir and im like actually know ive clock and enemy and we have lifetime. John bolton as you know hes nobodys. Now whether what you think about john bolton hes good at interviews. I have the receipt and he thinks he that appear but is not out appear. Those moments are greathe momen. As a former press secretary im sure youve been accused of that. And theres nothing wrong withha gotcha question. Im trying to get you. I make no apologies for that. Pure and consistent im going o call you out. General Michael Flynn before he went qanon ask an American History he was still a trunk proxy at that time did we discovered during the obama frustration at the end he was the head of the cia and perhaps rocco palmas so we found a quote or transcript where he talked about the iran nuclear program. Re i decided to read those and i talk about in the book away to disarm your opponent and president themwn with her own words. Thats below theel belt. Wh is it below the belt . Is its not my job to pay your way its your job. I said to you agree with people who say iran know i dont agree with that. Those are your words. At the moment and some people they cheer at football games. Me. S thats my moment. Thats my moment. Your receipt. Chapter 3 is allur about the receipt so make sure you have your receipt and dont get into a debate and sometime this physical receipt. Its great to have a document in the briefing room. Youu pull it out. I have it in my pocket. There you are. One of things you talk about in the book which stuck with me is where the balance between facts and charts and heart and emotion . Democratsa love a good chart ad love data could i dont know if you remember the Affordable Care act that was the argument of the white house at that time did i just dont know what it means. Can do to stay awake during the . Theres a bounce because you want toac be factbased as you also want to be flexible and agile so y what is that balance and how would you define that . Was clear in an post of turned the fact world. Gthere were so many gaslighting people d as there so many people gaslighting us. You cant have a good faith argument anymore. People who do they say facts important and you need to have a solid backing to what youre saying. Nobody is convinced with charm and Democrats Use the same technocratic approach. If i could do one more will convince this voter. If i just had one marked back tomorrow more statistic. Hillary quentin bluster and 2016 is up against donald trump and donald trump understand how to people emotionally. He knows how to people emotionally. Build the wall, lock her up then. We remember those clients today because they are to the point in a row something in you. And his 17 points childcare plan im sure it would have improved childcare across america. No one would base on that and know what is paying attention. Its not the world we live in. Its great if you are in high school script in a row world is to have anan emotional appeal. He appeal. At the available to tell stories engage people with passion. At its heart versus head the heart will be the head 9p at 10 and it goes back to artist. It goes back to aristotle. He talks about the need to connect with peoples hearts for the human brain is not hardwired to receive a bunch of statistics. Thats not how you convince your spouse or your kids would you make an emotional appeal but when we get into Public Policy and sometimes democrats in particular because of liberal arts education, no idea. We were rationally defeat you in this pragmatic manner and thats not how americans are most people around the world are pretty want to be inspired andnd they want to see anger. I talk about Michael Dukakis and the case study. You remember 1988 . 8 . You talk about them the book with bunch of good debate examples where they practice for weeks. Then i give examples not just my own career. Good practice and bad practice. Michael dukakis is up against george bush senior and the debate begins in all a cnn the first question Michael Ditka is antipenalty is getting hit hard. Dukakis is asked what would you do if Kitty Dukakis his wife was would you still not by the Death Penalty and dukakis gives gives a threeminute answer my transcribedd in the book. A threeminute answer were talks about massachusetts crime rates in deas lawaw enforcement planning Law Enforcement planning at drug summit for the southern hemisphere. He talks about everything except the fact that the guy just said is my his wife might have been brutally murdered. People want to hear his gut reaction to some of these things. Ifif he didnt do it. He was cold and he was a motionless and he was flat and he got the story. Some Campaign Manager said i knew it lost that night. Democrats are that far too often andcl interestingly have quentin is accused of being cold etc. Some of that was true but you remember she beat rocco palma New Hampshire shortly after crying and people said wow she engage with voters. I dont think he was a coincidencee that did for it democrats and in prison selections in 21st century the three of us were al gore hillary quentin not the most inspiring of orators and barack obama is in another league. People thinkal when they speak e speaks what he means it is not of the teleprompter. There is a link with emotional appeal. Had the think the art of winning an argument or debate has changed things . Its awful. I enjoy having people on my show. You want to have a bunch of interesting guests and i love hearing different places. I dont like it when everyone agrees. Id love having people who push back and disagree with me and to have that debate. They commonly do that they dont have conservatives on the show. I haveav a hygiene rule that i dont want to have election desires our climate deniers on the show. Im not going to argue people who dont p accept reality. [applause] but it limits me that im limited and i dont know how i can speak to that with the entire Republican Party being an election denier. M its hard in twoparty system. These allowed these people try to stimulate an idyllic chapter in the book. I talk about this technique and you can call it technique that comes from the evolution of gish who used to debate evolution as abolitionists. The scientist always loses. Hey i have one more statistic in the peerreviewed i study and te other person is inspiring and funny and telling anecdotes. Hes very engaging and very funny in he would anbar with this relentless change of cherrypick statistics quotes out of context and misrepresented studies but there were so many that such a vast space of time that the scientist could respond in the niche of thirdparty audiencesc might say maybe theres some truth in what he sang and thats the whole point about technique. Donald trump has mastered the issue knowingly ored unknowingl. Steve bannon thing he said our opponents are not the democrats say the media. They have flooded it with extras. Profile was lets fact checker thing he said and there debate about whether he is tweet should be shown. Daniel dale who we both know theres a moment in 2020 when in comes on the don lemon show and hes just out of breath. And this was false and this was false and as a sauce that you cant do that every day and you remember the first president ial debate between biden and trump Chris Wallace he goes through two minutes of just nonsensical claims one after another in a telephone lie everett nine seconds in the twominute period. The entire press corps could come onstage and they would just wouldnt be able to. What do you do when you redo giuliani pushing you an overwhelming you. You have people completely like where do i begin . Talk about it in the book. I have chapter and why he should do everything inee threes. Three reasons, three ways. Number one you pick your battles. Youk pick the weakest as most claim in you zero in on that and mock the of the best of the audience is wow though rest of his arguments are probably good as well. In our industry ive been here six months. I end. There too many interviewers and they move on to critically. Youll had to go to break very soon and theres always an outbreak. Remove bone in gish gallop or takes to that. My position is dont budge. Less is more. Dont do 20 questions, due to. When i interviewed steve rogers in and 2018 that prompted by sarah i decided my team and i decided we would focus on one trump claimed which at the time he was saying u. S. Steel hes already moved onto the next line. Its a lie. What he meant to say with a steel is doing really well but thats not what he said. Manufacturing and it just would go on and i said where is the . He said six steel mills. He kept dodging and i would move on. Where the six deal mills. He said six. At one point he says just move on. Is [laughter] he started producing me just move on. Your 15 minutes are up sir. I said im not going to move on in and the third i said because you know to lie and thats why youre doing and third is khalid up it when someone is trying to bs you forget the arguments in the book and just say you know what this is bs. Otcall out the strategy. This is nonsense. But point out and the Rand Corporation makes anan analogy. The corporation talks about putin. The Rand Corporation said when the russian fire hose of falsehood is up the fire had if somebody is in use to protect out and then tell them make them aware of whats going on. Its not easy and theres people why Jonathan Swan had done a good job educating trump but its t hard. I give my attempt at a strategy to take on the bs. We talk a lot about taking on the bs and dismantling their arguments and part of winning an argument is to talk about here is presenting something good or positive for something that people can bite their teeth into. What is the balance do you think for people on that . In terms of positive and negative . And how much is it taking apart your opponent versus presenting . Contexts matter so it depends where you are. Are uniform a debate at the University Auditorium are you an abolitionist for are you on cable news for a fiveminute hit or in a courtroom trying to persuade a jury or in a president ial debate speaking to the audience at home . To talk a lot in the book about flexibility. People have become very rigid. Theres no one style rodents 11 style rodents he hopped inside and i talk about in the book you if you bury your volume. If its just you and meth into e people and if we were on tv we inhave a different tone. Your tone your column and your delivery all that matters and substance matters too. You need to know who your audience is. If you have an audience w that venue to turn your message in that way and say stuff that might appeal to them. What we say to catch him offguard and pleasantly surprising and pleasantly surprise in texas thats an audience of everyone that you agree with the want to challenge that and you want to upset the conventional wisdom and Say Something provocative that makes them think . To take your wider point i talk about in the book especially the finale chapter of the grand finale helped to leave someone with something substantive that they can take away. He can be a feeling. Theres a famous phrase and bidding circles that people wont remember what you said but they will remember how you made them feel. Sometimes you watch people get the delivery and a of the speech whatever it is that it triples off at the end. Im done, thank you very much for your time. Dont do that. And as the moment to really send them away with food for thought, inspired baby a call to arms what k you should be doing after that i believe the more positive than negative and i get people and spread when i talk about emotion. N. Trump inspires people with of foreigners and paranoia that theres light weho. Im all for that. Obviously thatn some person who is a bad faith person or person trying to trick people use the spicy sections. Same with the spicy middle. Your wife is here. And she is here. We are going to call her up. You riding a book about how she went arguments. For those of you who dont know mehdi you can see how he would winn arguments. Ive been up since six and i need a cup of coffee just so i ofcan keep up with mehdi. Your wife went arguments. How do she went arguments . First of all shes much smarter than me so brain power and intellect matters but i will say one thing. Let me use my wifes example. Let people arent twitter saying should you win every argument . Isnt that bad . I say yes you are my friend. Debating is about learning and interactions and you should be getting stuff. The point of the book i wont tell you to go out and win every argument im saying heres how you can win every argument should you choose to just as i have written a book about drive every car and buy every car in the world and drive it. The example i give my wife is maybe you might be able to beat your spouse and argument and im saying just dont. Maybe just avoid it. And thats a little bit like him saying he throws the game sometimes. To quote a famous press secretary i welcome back to him. [laughter] we will get to your questions of the moment and per the instructions at the beginning if youd like to ask a question or feed like to debate if you hate covid restrictions or anything else you can lineup. Marvel movies. You canta line up and dont be shy. Lineup here and mehdi will take your questions. As you are doing that i have that little rapidfire. Who is the best debater today . Damien politics . Take a it wherever you want to take it mehdi. Th i will plug the book and in the book i talk about Elizabeth Warren and how she turned out in las vegas. Whatever you think about warren whatever it is one thing im hoping we can agree no matter what she does between now and the day she meets her maker is that she saved the world from Michael Bloomberg and one, 62nd he destroyed Michael Bloombergs rib take you less can seeiz in 59 seconds i talk about in the book. She turns up in vegas and she goes for a billionaire. Its genius. Her team were hugging chairs in the green room and jumping up and down. Wikipedia that night changed Bloomberg Space to say killed onstage in las vegas by Elizabeth Warren. As politicians go warren was the High School Debate champion and went to the university on a scholarship. To unocal she did . Had lost to plant may be more than hillary quentin i dont know. But they messaged she is a plan for that which you would meet people atse offense and in the early states people would be like, she is a plan for everything. But she has a plan for all of it. So thats amazing. Which is funny because four years later will summers at the daily beast has a book out about qanon because qanon is obsessed with the plan. The plan is taking a bad turn. Who would you love to debate and this could be someone on your show or a debate at the event. Someone who have wanted to interview and grill because i loathe them and respected them ny tony blair. This month as a 20th anniversary of the iraq invasion which blair and bush happily gave the world and george bush would be at the point listened to bits and no disrespect but its like shooting fish in a barrel and tony blair, tony blairs a smart guy and i watched him on iraq for two decades. Hes a great teflon tony and always slips out a bit and while my intentions are good in the intelligence and id love to go back and forthwith him to have no rustic on their rack and based in the lights lives that were lost and hope that guy to account because no one has held him toio account for 20 years. Tony blair if youre watching cspan or on twitter where politics and prose if youre in washington. We are ready to do it right here. What is the issue where Public Opinion is most starkly different than your point of view . Thats a good question. Ien guess right now contentious ones i support the Funding Police brutality in this country unfortunately the polls of the American Public are not there yet. Its a tough choice and people in the Democratic Party and the frustration run away from this argument. Or they just dont think they should defund the police. Your t gallup because im not overwhelming revulsion. Im reframing the debate, which is the chapter on judo moves, which is when making a case to find out on your terms, liberals and lefties for far too long fight on the terrain of conservatives. And i think thats mad to find as you want. For example, i talk about i say in the book, when i talk making a case, the Police Argument is a very hard argument to win, but dont talk about it in of, you know, Police Crime Rates levels, etc. Talk about it in purely terms. Tell me which americans supports funding the beating of. Tyree nichols, find me an american, is it . Yes, i support funding that. Thats my argument. Show me that piece. Okay. All right. I think ready for some questions . Go ahead. Okay. I would like to know. Which debate you lost . Oh, and why . And to who. So well stay from personal household debates. So i so, i am i did a debate i did a debate on. A couple of summers ago. I think which one is worth more interesting . One that they. Well, a couple of things. One is i did a i did a debate with, a Climate Change denier years ago. I would never have Climate Change deniers on my show now. But then i was cocky. Ten years ago that i could do a Climate Change denier and it was just purely your scalp. It was a disaster. Like it was just nonsense. One after another. Its conspiracy theories. You know, you question this. Thats part of the conspiracy you cite this study. Well, theyre all in on it. It didnt go anywhere. And i was embarrassed that id used up an hour of air time on my show to platform, a conspiracy theory. So thats the kind of ones i would say avoid. And if i wrote another book, one chapter in this book is when to walk from an argument, when not to have the argument, but an actual proper debate that i lost, i did a debate for intelligence squared, which is a debating organization, the uk and the us on Angela Merkel ago during the height of the euro crisis when greece was really suffering and it was about how is Angela Merkel destroying. And i was making the case that she was and it was intelligence squared. Its another reminder that have to know your audience. I turn up at this debate and im pushing kind of you know paul krugman and lefty themes about keynesian spending why i a during the height of the yearold crisis when greece is really suffering. It was another minded enough to know your audience. I turn up at this debate and pushing lefty things about spending and as to start up an entire crowd paid 70 pounds per ticket even the greeks and the credit kind of like greek shipping tycoons predicates we need to destroy our country. I was like this is not going anywhere. 20 minutes and i was like maybe i can win this debate somewhere else but in this hall tonight with these people i have got no chance. Its important the first chapter the book is called know your audience. Nothing is more important than knowing what you can offer that audience and how you can identify with them. If you nailed that Everything Else is easy. Tip number one skip the first chapter, just kidding. Which policy politician do you respect the most . I mentioned tony blair and lets pick someone else. I actually think i would say alexandria ocasio cortez. If you seen some of her performance on the house floor to use the kids means she does bring the fire. It is really passionate and id love passion. What i like most about politicians on the upper left is when they are technocratic and bureaucratic and managerial and she if you seen some of her speeches including your speech, her speech and her speech on the day republicans voted to remove comment from the finance committee was stunning. You watch it and you feel something in that for me is the emotional appeal. Thats going to be any kind of technical argument about well you didnt have that in what she came up and terms of and standing up to marginal communities was very powerful. Od you on multiple occasions you referenced his most famous book, manufacturing on how the media to manufacture consent for an uninformed American Public to get them to vote for candidates who are, i guess, only serve the interest of the elite. So across your career you know, your records have been very clear. Your youre a staunch critic of israel. Youre a staunch of human rights. My question going, im guessing, im guessing in my stomach with homework. Is that your staunch critic of saudi arabia and in right violation you you criticize u. S. Military camps you have the best positions in afghanistan iraq, libya, others. So my question for you is how and how does an antiestablishment figure like you of work for a corporate establishment such as msnbc . So let me so so let me ask you this. You will choice. You dont want to fire as a weird was that a question or a speech . No it was a question because but normally when you ask a question, you wait. They dont so im actually. Okay, lets do it this way. Let me ask you about how do work for them . You tell me, how do i work for them . Well, youre a pure broadcaster on that, on nbc, which is owned by comcast, one of the largest telecommunication. But of all the issues you just mentioned, which ones if i stopped talking about since i went to work for msnbc. But can you repeat the question . You listening happily, im good at repeating questions. Im you listed a bunch of issues that said id done over my career. And then you said and now you work for msnbc. Im saying of all issues. You mentioned israel, saudi arabia, militarism, libya etc. Which ones have i stopped talking or stopped railing against since i joined msnbc in august of 2020 . Now, well, for example, last year when the issue between israel gaza was happening, you had a 1 to 15 things a w an ambassador or Something Like that. Yeah. In israel. And youve had on and you just couldnt shut up about hamas and stuff like that. So that very clearly, you know, youre, you know, and at the end of the end of the debate, you ask him, do you support a two state solution . He didnt really give you the answer on that. Well, thats an example. Thats a good example. Yeah. Yeah, good. I that there you go ending an agreement so my position is i have the similar i have the same criticism the Corporate Media have always had. I have the opportunity to work for Corporate Media. Its a great blessing and opportunity. I get to address millions of people on platforms that i normally wouldnt have access to. For example, i was on air in prime time on msnbc doing all in the week that joe biden made one of his best decisions but most criticized was to end the war in afghanistan in august 2021. And i was able to get more afghan voices on tv that week than probably any cable show cable channel has ever done in the space of five days. So for me i have all my criticisms, i know about all the constraints, but my position is, hey, as long as they let me do what im doing, ill keep doing it. And when they stop letting me do what i do, ill stop doing it. All right. Thank you for your question. Okay. Hi. So you mentioned the Jonathan Swan interview, which brought back lots of great memories for me, thats another piece of homework. Its very good. Is there much in the audio which you can also watch on hbo . So i think thats a really great example of someone using the tactics you mentioned to really turn the tables on a jewish galloper. Yes, excalibur. So, so well, so that, if i remember correctly, former President Trump was actually the one holding up the graphs. Right. He was pulling out his folders and holding up graphs and some great memes came out of that as well. What learnings can modern journalists and hosts take away from that interview when . They are choosing to interview more these jewish gallopers and election deniers and so on and forth. Its a great question and i actually used jonathans interventions as a good friend of mine. Weve talked about the interview many times. I used that interview, seen the Jonathan Swan donald trump interview. Yeah, good. A lot of people have seen it with the famous jonathan game, the meme everyone seems to memes and he won an emmy for it, which he deserved and he did the three part process which i mentioned. He he picked his bottle. He said, lets talk about death numbers. Lets talk about the statistics case. Fatalities. He didnt budge. When trump brought out the graphs, trumps like, look at south and most interviewer would like screw south korea. Ive got another question on one of them goes, okay, lets at south korea and not trump thinking south korea what do i do normally . Trump used to like next trump doesnt know. South korea is like, whos the south korea, by the way . Why interview is why did interviews never ask trump just fact questions . People would say, what would you trump i would think just fact questions. Mr. President , the nato stand for what is the im i mean, when are you heading for wakanda . Those are the questions i would ask in the White House Briefing room, too. If had a chance anyway. But but swamp swan. Swan did that. Hee hee hee hee hee. He picked his bottle. He didnt. When trump threw the papers at him and, he called it up. He said, look, this is our numbers about. We have much worse that this is what youre doing youre just trying to railroad me and whats is people did learn the swan interview but the problem the swan interview was 2020 it was the end of the trump presidency. It wasnt until the very end that a lot of interviews started wising up to trump tactics, standing up to him using words like the lword, liar, rword, racist, which to many journalists away from. For the first three years, the president and i know my good friend wajahat ali is here somewhere in the crowd as well. And hes made this point that like a lot of us, there were a bunch of us for years saying, hey, trumps of fascist and racist and dishonest and you cant say stuff like that. Thats extreme youve got trump derangement syndrome and its like, oh, january six. Do we all agree with that . So some of us were saying this stuff for a long time. Jonathan swan did that great interview. Chris wallace also did a great interview. Trump in 2020 but with all the very end now the big question is what happens now in 2024 . Do you still platform him . Its a good question. And i think journalists have to think long and hard how theyre going to platform him, how the interview is going to happen. Do you do them live . Please, god, no. At least pretape them. So you can somehow interject with facts and figures. Jonathan karl of abc did a very interview with Arizona Election and i want my forgetting name kari lake kerry how. Can you forget kari lake she still shes still protesting the election. She did and he did it pretaped a sunday show and he cut away every she said some nonsense. The voice of god narrator came. Thats not true, actually. Da da da. And that was great. I think we should do more of that with people who just are serial fabricators . No, lots of tips there. Oc whos next . Hi, amanda. Ive always wanted to ask you this question because i think any politician who agrees to come on your is out of their minds. And because are a chair you are terrifying. And so you must have amazing producers that can convince people who know theyre going to be destroyed to come on. Yes, but so my question is my question is, are there people who, like you, have you are not being able to get because theyre so scared to be interviewed by you name some names. Yes. But im not going to tell you their names. Im still trying to get them all. So what weve been hes so scared of me. He wont come out. Thats not really going to work in the persuasion angle. But no, look, i have great producers. Last night in new york, my msnbc team came out. It was really fun, too. They were watching me and i was giving them the credit they deserve because they make me look good with all that research and prep. And i think another. Friend of mine here, lucas radical, is at the back. Hes Al Jazeera English producer who i worked with for years. He knows a lot of those. Al jazeera, they got their ears chewed by guests like theres guy called ryan coles, who i mention in the book who used to be his now in london he was the guest booker and his job was to walk people out of the studio to the street so awkward whole guy it was so like Julia Gillard the former australian Prime Minister comes on the show she comes on to promote some initiative girls in africa that shes promoting. For me. And i say to the team, i want to ask one question on immigration. You can start one immigration quest at the end. My one quest at the end was how did she sleep at night with blood on our hands from all the boats that have drowned because of her policies. And were sitting each other at me, her cameraman, and no one else in the room. And the interview is over. Thank you for joining me. How long are you in town for . When are you in dc . Tell shes looking at me like she wants to kill me. Ryan in and has to do the long walk of shame with her team all giving dirty looks Vitaly Klitschko i talk about the torture so straight he on the show you know Vitali Klitschko the current mayor of kiev valiantly defending a city against russian aggressors. Former heavyweight champion of the world foot ten has arms, you know, the size of my entire body. And he was mayor of kiev and he on the show. And i persuaded and trump is very hard to get on the show we still try to get him on that show and he does want to come back on the show for some reason. He came on and i asked him, he said to me, my english, not so good. You speak slowly. Sorry, i can only do ivan drago. I cant do i cant do klitschko. And i said, all right, i slowly and for the first few minutes, the interview, i was like, you know, british tourist on holiday. Can you show me the way to the colosseum and i was very slow but then after a few minutes i was in the heat of the moment i went back to my normal fast pace speech and he was getting annoyed and i couldnt notice and. Then i asked him, does he is he linked to the ukrainian, which was accusation at the time . So the interview ends and hes furious because. Ive spoken fast and ive accused him of being a criminal and he stands up me six foot ten he said you said would speak slowly and im thinking is he going to hit me. Yeah and if he hits me am i going to die. But is it going to go viral. Horrible thoughts to be having at the same time this lulzsec very sick but then ryan to walk him out of the room. Oh, hes no tough. Ron paul ryan is in london. He fled the country. Understandable. All right. I know can you record this . You dont, my friend. I forgot to ask him a voice recording. Its okay to videos. Good to have all about when youre speaking to fabulous whatever. You are speaking so much. Huge fan of both of you. So thank you for looking at me directing that. I feel that my heart is beginning flutter. So let me get this out. Whether its from general me because half and half split middle. So love it. Thank so i had a question because my friend who i had another friend i invited come could not make it but im asking this on her behalf as well because i was just having conversation with her about this topic and for her and i both. We feel that there are so many times when we host and possess an expansive and variety in terms of our knowledge on topics that can be so extensive. However not to such a degree that becomes specialty. So perhaps this phrase known as a jack, all trades kind of thing, and we were kind of wrestling with this idea of how to argue. And i dont know if perhaps you address it in the book, but to crowd tonight how do you find yourself tackling an argument with someone who perhaps could have more who can have more information on something that you do find yourself to be masses empirical science. This is kind of my life i never feel i not that i never feel i dont enough french but sometimes im argue with someone who has views that perhaps i dont with but because of the lack of Information Research space, the fact i cannot carry on and i want to because no one wants to talk about that in the book. Okay. Its its its a challenge for all of us jen is going to have it when our show launches i have it right now on my shoulders. So when i was doing i was doing a nightly until very recently a nightly live show hour a night and my my my mother bless i was watching it on youtube in the uk and shes like, how do you i dont understand how you have time for how do you know, how do you prepare for all this. I have a great team. She goes, how can you be . You know, i know you dont know all this stuff. My mom, shes my mum. She wanted me to be a doctor. She knows i dont anything about covid and talking about medicine and Public Health and, uh, every asian child feels that not becoming a doctor and its really important. I talk about the book, the whole chapter on doing your homework. Theres a whole chapter on preparation, and its so ive got i talk about in the book having to interview people like Steven Pinker for, example, huge intellect, huge, huge. Its 100 times smarter than me. Wrong on almost everything but smart. Go right and i have to debate with him. He comes on my show and, you know, we prepare as much as we can. Paul bremer, ill give the example i give in the book is. Paul bremer, some of you may remember paul revere. He was the viceroy that george bush sent to run iraq. And again, again, whatever. Well, whatever you think about paul bremer, smart guy, and he turns up to do an interview me an hour and ten long interview on iraq and his legacy in iraq. This guy literally ran right and. Been to rot for ten years at that point, five years. And this is years after it. So what do we do . My team and i, we go through we read his memoir. We read other peoples memoirs who were in iraq at the same time we read all of the us inspector generals reports on waste of money during the iraq occupation. We go through all that stuff. We spend days preparing to the point where ive got a stack of papers, to the point where in the interviews over and hes sweating. Im sweating, and he leans forward and its a great move. He says, nice research. He looks out. It looks like a nice research. That is a great moment for someone like who is. I define myself as a jack of all trades. Im not specialist on anything. I try and kind of keep interest in lots of interesting things. And that again, the simple answer to that solution is you got to put in the work that youve got and actually can help you. There is an advantage. I took it as a chapter in the book called judo moves how you knock people off balance. If somebody comes thinking, i am the greatest authority on this subject and you pull out three things i hadnt thought of or three studies they hadnt noted, that immediately gives you an advantage in that position and they all have newfound respect for you in the audience will have super respect for you thanks so much. Thank you. You got it. Thank you. All right. How much how much time do we have left . Just so i dont know who im asking an authority. Theres like a voice of god somewhere else. Okay, im too long in mind. Im being very short. Im trying. No, no, no. I just want to make sure we get the ball. Try to squeeze two more. Yeah. Quick questions. Answers. Yes. All right. Also, a long time admirer of both of you. Thanks for doing this. Your 62nd rant. Frequently you go viral. You simply do not stutter. Theres so, so effective and lethal in your arguments. I was wondering if you could take one of those 2 minutes, two on the spot, whatever want 60 seconds either either either i was thinking earlier i was thinking either maybe its always a rant about something thats wrong in the world. So maybe like a rant for 60 seconds about something that you find positive in american politics or 60 seconds on whatever is bothering you right at this moment. Oh, ill play the role timer. So. All right. Going to say. Here we go. Ready, set, go. I am 43 years old and love living in this country because i love older people who my kids age right now, my kids are 15 and ten. I love young people in america because young people are saving in america. And my evidence for that go look at the 2018 midterms. Go at the 2020 election, go look at the 2022 midterms. Every study been done. If you go to john della volpe at harvard, he will tell you that young people with a crucial democrats say, oh, young people dont vote only. Old people vote. No, not true. Young people turned in major levels. If you take young voters out of the electorate, democrats dont win the house in 2018. Dont win the presidency 2020. Dont save the senate in 2022, and therefore young people are actually inspiring us because. Theyre young people are apathetic. Theyre always on tiktok, always doing nonsense. Actually, young people out there fighting for abortion rights, fighting for civil rights, fighting for minority rights, fighting for transgender rights, fighting for the people who cant speak for themselves. And so i say young people is what inspires about america . Because i dont care what the older generation is doing, building walls and voting for donald trump. Its the young people who are going to save this country, save democracy because it needs saving, oh goodness, back in to that. Back in. Dallas very good. Okay. Hi, im amanda and i forgot my question. Just getting i am Communications Director on the hill. So i have worked you before. Thank you very much. And i admire you. Thank you. And i work for congresswoman betty mccollum. So i guess betty mccollum, whos one of the few members of congress who truly stands up for palestinian human rights in, this country stands up every i search for her an honor to have been on your broadcast before. But my question is not about that. My is about gender and i would just love to know is there anything in your book, do you do you cover the gender Politics Around making a case . And i would actually love to hear from you as john, if i would. Yeah, i sadly, i dont i dont address it head on. I will say one thing. There are far too there are far too few women in this book. I talk about warren and others, especially because some of the ancient examples are all men. Like there werent many women debating with socrates and plato back in the day. Sadly, im glad things changed. Or at least, well said. One thing i would say is when you talk about gender, you talk about the way that certain arguments when made by women would not be taken the same way made by men. Thats 100 true. We saw i mentioned Hillary Clinton earlier, Elizabeth Warren. One thing i do say in the book and it might not be the answer looking for, but i talk about myself as im a woman, obviously, but im a muslim. Im a member of a minority which has its own, comes with its own baggage. I talk in the book about rmf, which resting angry muslim face when im paying attention, it looks like im angry. Literally and the question the guest is talking about, prisons are like unique. It looks like you want to get in. And therefore i have to deal with some of the baggage that comes with the kind of peoples stereotypes, preconceptions angry muslim man. And one thing i say in the book is and again, this is not a good, honest judgment of a much more and hopeful answer to end with. I say, look, you just have to deal with it. You know what . You know, if youre trying to win the in that moment, youre going have to save the point scoring the double standards, hypocrisy for another day. You have to do it. I it you have to be flexible. You have to be nimble. You have to adapt to your situation and you have to use it to your favor. Ive done it in my own case. For example, when im in front of a conservative crowd that thinks this muslim person doesnt like the west, i will go out of my way to talk about kind of the western canon and the magna carta and our constitution, because that throws them off balance. Theyre not expecting the muslim do to say that. But youre right, there is a gender there is a minority discourse. Not everything in this book probably in that way. Maybe thats the sequel i love that. Its such a good. Okay. Oh, man. Heres what i would say and i can only speak to my own experience with this. When i was working for barack obama, i was the only female spokesperson in the press office. And i always felt and these were many people who were my friends then were my today, but i always like maybe i had to replicate who they were right if their approaches were, im going to yell at reporters and im going to slam the phone and then im going to brag about it or im going to send like a f few blog, curse laden email. And thats going to be how i am. And i always thought, dont that doesnt feel really like me. But if im going to be like them, be tough in this business, have to be like that. It probably took me turning 40 to realize i dont have to be like that and maybe talks about this as much as. Its not about gender. Its about being authentic self and your own authentic of of how make those arguments so to i would much rather not come out hot screaming but no i have the in my back pocket and im just wait like a bear for slaughter for somebody to walk into that. But i go pete. Doocy but i dont have to do it with like fbombs. I dont have to do it by slamming my phone. The other thing i would tell you is that my own experience was also not all women, but a lot of women. And certainly for me, you have to believe you can do it. And there is a confidence gap, right, of thinking. I mean, when i worked for barack obama and i became the spokesperson in traveling with him on the 2012 campaign, i was like, how am i going to do this . Theres no one else advising him. Its me and its like robert gibbs, who was the press at first press ever said to me, you know, i cant a southern accent, but just like play along with that, like you just got to act like you belong there. And then certain point people believe you and thats its pretty simple, but you didnt you werent advising a president until you were you werent making an argument television until you did it. And sometimes you just have to like do a little superhero fit, you know, pose. I dont know if anybody watches ted lasso in this room, but i okay you know the scene were in and then ill wrap because i but you know the scene when rebecca who is the female owner of the soccer team is going to go in and talk to the male soccer players and she does this like big where shes like a tree. I used to do that before the briefing because its a psychological thing where youre saying to myself, i got so figure out what your is. Find your authentic argument. Doesnt to be like other people. And then just, you know, fake it till you make it a little bit believe you can do it in the book. If you make it. All right. Well, i think that wraps our program many this book which i read several months ago, its phenomenal. I learned a lot in this book. There are so many key components. This book i still dont want to go on many show and i did fox a lot. So its amazing highly recommend it. I know you did. You know when you came on the show with me when i was sitting in for the 11th hour and i grilled you and all your fans trolled me all night, how they how dare speak to jen psaki like Brian Williams would have had so much more right anyway. I think youre going to sign some book, right . Okay great. Well, thank you all for coming. This is an amazing im proud of your amazing thank you, especially you standing