Director of the excerpted please welcome to those at home. I hope you join in the conversation this evening. Just a quick webinar overview for attendees. The chat is close but you may want to keep the chat window open in any event. You can use the q a available on the bottom of the screen to ask questions at any time to join the conversation. As a reminder you can shop the literary bookstore. Com and theyll be shipped to you anyway and it states that if you live in ann arbor or south michigan and in local book purchase we ask you to consider a donation to our virtual programming while it lasts. Or a subscription to our virtual programming you can make donations at literati bookstore. Com. This morning or this afternoon this evening depending on where in the world you may be joining us. Now lets join with her author and moderator. He worked in public radio earningn his ph. D. And michigan. And jeremiah champlian teaches creative riding. Hes editorinchief and a contributing editor. He was a full Bright Research scholar. Please join me in welcoming jeremiah champlian and subtwentyone into your living room and philipou danieri. Hi phil. Congratulations on this marvelous book. I was so excited to read it. You can see all my notes here as ive been reading through it. And its a particularly wonderful experience to see it on the desk here because i had the great pleasure of reading app serves and chapters of it three years ago when we were both bellos at students for the humanities at the university of michigan a marvelous program one that brought together wonderful cohort ofet people. So its marvelous to see the book between a cover so congrats. Well thanks. Its marvelous and its fun and its and. Firsttime author the transition from the book thing a project and something in progress to it being a product to be marketed and talked about is a very mere transition. Obviously very fun and exciting. Absolutely. Lets go back to the beginnin. We will end up at the end at the end. I was trying to think back to her earlier conversations and i was trying to remember what was it the jury you this to the story and he said near the end of the book that it wasnt as much the identity of the appalachian trail as the appalachian trail. Jury you into the research but i wonder he could say more about the genesis that moved you from curiosity tohi investigation. It was a couple of things. There are two points of entry for me. Number one growing up in the eastern u. S. You just know that its out there. You drive down the turnpike and theres a pedestrian bridge over the interstate that says appalachia trail on it so its kind of out there and you know its this nature thats winding its way through the very developed and built that part of the country. I had a good friend in high school who said some day we should hike together which we never did. So always a place that ingested me. And i have thought about maybe hiking the whole thing one day and its not clear that i will never going to do that but i someone who works for the publisher and she said well that sounds just about every guy i have ever dated. Much more recently than i became a grad student in planning to read this and planning name that mckay who in the 1920s and 30s put out all these interesting ideas aboutut the shape of metropolitan metropolitan america and how it could fit into the Natural Systems around it and then i learned this same person who was doing all this urban thinking was the one who invented the ap and that seemed like something worth digging into a bit more. Those were the two starting points. So lets build off that a bit more in terms of the environment which is something you taught it as a student at michigan but also the idea of nature and its construct and you suggested in your comment seems to be one of the things you are most dialed into. You call the book about a free weather than the history right there on b the cover but in fact there is another storyline that seems to be about that. How do we think about nature and what is our relationship to it . Absolutely. The appalachian trail like so many environments is a combination of the built in the naturalhe and with the interplay between those two and the tensions between them and the parts of the bill better natural that we acknowledge and embrace in places like the 80 in the parts that we pretend arent there is endlessly fascinating to me. I teach a course around that and my poor students have heard a lot more about the appalachian trail than i ever cared to. It was a Perfect Place for to tease out this to me very human process of crafting a version of nature around ourselves and actually building our hopes and their needs and their aspirations and our escapism into the environment in crafting the empire meant around that. We want to talk about nature as is that which is separate from us andat thats why its somethg cool to escape to but to make ie inescapable place we have got to make it work for us. We have got to construct it and that process is what i was trying to get back in the book. We begin this biography in the late 19th century, 1860s and we have moved mostly up to the present final chapter focusing on the 60s and the 70s and what you would describe as the rise of the them are Mental Movement and even jfk riding about the way in which our understanding of the Natural World was almost like an anecdote to contemporary life and in recent years many books riding about major deficitor disorder. T so it spanned a little bit more than a century or a century and a half. We moved from the terrors of the wilderness, it will kill you too without it will kill us. Thats a pretty big seismic shift. With a lot of interesting stops around along the way. The reason the book is organized as profiles of individuals at certain points in time in the sense tries to capture what were people in that period of time seekingf from nature and buildig the trail. Just to pick up on the two bookends a little bit before nature was a retreat and a place to escape to it not only was dangerous, it was perceived as morally compromised in the place where we were civilized and safe and okay and when i say we i mean european culture in european america was in towns and church so it wasnt just physically dangerous. Morallyda dangerous. Its only as we get safer and more comfortable in the its us or against the late 1800s that people seek the outdoors for a denture. We seek a lot of other things over the time. Not that the book deals with. In the very end and bill brysons book about hiking the appalachian trail its a nature of irony. Hes poking fun at himself and nature. In a way that you could have gotten away with it in a would have seen that all appropriate even 20 or 30 years earlier on these various topics to lots of different versions of nature have emerged over the years and without ridingd a textbook or a dry Academic Book i was trying to sort of gesture towards these different things. If you think about them as stages and moving through what was the state you found the most interesting or perplexing or found yourself drawn to as we shifted from natures morally suspect to hear somebody is riding a whole book about hiking the appalachian trail. Although he doesnt hike allowed that. By the way far more than i have. Thats a good question and im almost ashamed to admit the part that i enjoyed the most learning was the chapter about the National Park service in the 1980ss and 90s. Bureaucratized inca trail and thats my background in state government. The ph. D. Research i did was on institutions but i found it really interesting that the trail gets in many respects its a very narrow National Park and it took bureaucracy and procedure and law and Eminent Domain andmi planning processeso create d this thing and protectt and you certainly dont think and i dont think anybody except for a few oddballs like myself want to think about when youre out there onnk the trail. It. This is wonderfully naturalistic environment as much as i talk about how belted is now nestled in it used to be that vibe when youre walking on it. But as natural as it is, we only found it we only have it because of institutions and bureaucracies. S people work in the Public Sector doing good work and a fairly anonymous way that after day. I think that was the part i was most attracted to. Cox its a biography because of course it is a biography of the appalachian trail its biographies of these individuals, go out of your way and wisely so this is by no means its a different type of history. Cu the complex history of the u. S. Especially in those days predominately white, predominantly mail maybe middleclass. To think about some of the different bandwidths. When things i admired about the book witht the chapters will hae these wonderful arcs of each of these individual lives. Whether its a woman in her 70s after 30 years of marriage, those are duffel over her shoulder, grabbed an umbrella as a cane and does not just want smothers the bureaucrat at the desk whos trying to finagle so peace does not end up in an imminent domain claims court the u. S. Government has to settle out. All these little narratives. You see them fitting together is kind of a little coalition a larger vision of the book came together for you its a massive amount of material for think about the history and the deep dive of research. I can remember us talking about this in the seminar. Not surprising of these wonderful different options. Is it more of a im not sure i ever fully solved how to tie the pieces together and what the relationship was among them. What i knew i wanted to do is provide many chapter at length the biographies. It was in these individuals leading their own allies and coming up on the trail that the trail got built. And i wanted to tote show different versions of that over time. You could understand the human investment in its. If you can understand these folks as individuals uniqueness that any of us have. I was better able but the chapters completely separately from one another for the most part in different years. Ththen suddenly. [laughter] there is a version of this book or it is stitched together and a better way. The other thing about biography versusgr history such as what im trying to do for the reader or the story i want to investigate is what is this place . Why are we attracted to it . What is its deal . What is it story . That to me it felt more like a biography. What you would do the individual the persons history, look at the times he lived in. That you get some sense of who they were. To get more universal as o well. You see yourself in the other person story. That was the kind of stuff i wanted to do as opposed to this year this happened with the trail in that year that happen with the trail. Like you are very modest i think the book reads. Your readers pull chapter to chapter elegantly. I found myself finishing a one chapter and sucked right into the net another one. It feels very contiguous. And i guess a good framer for the book itself is like the trail you do not know your crossing the state line whether there is a sign that says youre now entering your leaving georgia when i hit this line can you pronounce your lesson . Works i say do but im not a native french speaker. The earliest chapters nature it was not a list it was a story. Outline thats great for what he came back to the beginning of the book after finishing it once or looking through it again for conversation today. I felt a bit like it could be in the graph of the book itself. I think if it were purely history it would feel more in the book does not feel at all it feels like a biography also should asy. Alive as the subjec. I had admired the book. And i wonder if you could talk tabout the book does not seem to me also like a shift in thinking, was one of these fellows who was thinking about the Natural World and the scientific one meeting the cosmological, religious, you can the blank there. The idea of shifting from nature not a lift to a story. Check about his concept and went and that is the very first shapers of what was later work was seminole. Lexi was part of a tool of thought or way to look at the worlds emerging in europe in the mid 1800s. Alexander humble is a famous proponent of that. The idea was a student of humboldt. That really is the beginning of what i and others call the ideological idea. This notion that in the science and the technical understanding of the Natural World, is in appreciation for larger things and larger concepts but i dont think in again i know something about the appalachian trail and not an academic environmental historian. Theres folks who know a lot more about this than i do. There is no coincidence he was a fervent christian and had trained to be a minister. Built his notion of the Natural World around by observing things closely in nature, we see a reality on a higher plane. And does not relieve itself anymore but the storyline to go with it. T. What we have been doing ever since is moving back and forth between the technological scientific side of things which at first complicates and is a troubling contradiction of the stories would like to tell. And then we evolve that accommodate that and it goes back and forth like that. Whether you approach nature as an ecologist noting relationships among species or just to someone who likes to go out and walk around. Theres always these two things present. A look, there is that it isnt that neat . As a physical tangible level. Then there is the higher order wild man, what does it all mean . [laughter] the 19th century version of that. The language hasnt changed. The participants in the conversation had changed. I do think that basic but internal dialogue is still going on has been for a long time. Reminds me the idea of the lily. The idea a little he is a beautiful flower. It is more beautiful to a botanist and its even more beautiful to someone who studies flowers. Even more beautiful to someone who specializes in the lily. There is no way to approach a full understanding of anything. Our understanding of beauty is increasingly the closeness to the knowledge of the things. You can look at that quantifying elements in a product oriented away. Acquiring mileage, or acquiring unlikeness or there is a way of also thinking about it from away of quantifying it in a more qualitative way that sounds like an oxymoron quantitative qualification. [laughter] as a son of an ecologist my parents are avid travelers around the world looking for the rare bird that flies in. Theres a way where theo knowledge of that creates a beautiful awareness of it as well. I was struck by the polarity of what is driving. Is it truly acquisition . Or is there Something Else going on . Parks i do think there is the risk of substituting its acquisition on mindset or privilege it is the only one that counts. So when you talk about some sume or miles accomplished, i am sensitive to anything the ecological world on the hiking world is becoming more sensitive to this problem of, if youve got to have a knowledge of full appreciation, that you are one involving all sorts of people away w from that experience. But, to be the perfect example of the person who thanks in that list making way was myron avery really got the trail built. He was intensely interested in the mountains. He wrote hardly anything about beautiful nature is and watching around in it he publish and accounted for peaks and he wanted everything to brick recorded in just the right manner. That strain of natural thinking if youou will is a big part of. It is definitely not the only part i would argue. Without trying to be dismissive toward your parents and of the world. [laughter] that is a component. It is a important component. Theres more as well. I didnt f get in a tiff with National Geographic you want to come write a story but refused his version of the story . He could not believe they did not want to publish the article which was basically an encyclopedia entry about the trail. Heres a different way to approach it. He just kept writing letters back saying no, actually you are mistaken this is the article you want. They never resolved it. Looks that ran the piece rate change in then certain ways. Yes. Hit made the trail mike it a sign that the trail was now a substantial part of the american landscape. And the National Geographic you and i are inph age i dont know, could your family have a subscription to National Geographic . Minded i remember the yellow minded packages on the bookshelf that was in the 1970s were back in the 30s and 40s their huge publications. When they made National Geographic at some level it was a real think it was a real place. And in part because of the way they frame thee article was notd in the Previous Year someone had hiked the entire length of the trail in one go, earl shaver thatt because the attention of a woman who read the article to the 67 your grandma who hiked the trail in canvas sneakers with a duffel bag over her a shoulder. This is the concept of hiking began. Yes. Schaefer pretty much, he deaflyn but the concept on the map. It was not a terribly popular thing to do for decades after that. Im the 60s, he became much more prominent. The organizers and builders had very little interest in it. They thought hiking was a stop to the trail certainly had not been built for that purpose. It was very important to schaefer. To a large extent did get his life together after world war ii. That is among the seminole events for sure. A look of exeter in the 20th century. I found this on the most fascinating parts of the book. Or reaching a Tipping Point technologically geographically was the then president of Kentucky College in appalachia said it is a longer journey from Northern Ohio to kentucky then from america to europe. The one day ride brings us into the 18th century. I am curious about this moment. The boy scout handbook was second in book sales in this country only to the bible. We have this early dawn of the 20th century is happening. Youve got parts of the country entering the 20th century and parts that are still in the 18th century not even 19th. Theres conflict happening regionally. This is a project that engages with not just an enormous swath of geography. At the turn of the 20th century is a very different place. And urban areas are different places from rural areas. I am curious how that part of the story this is a moment and the concept of this coming to fruition. Perhaps the surest way to put it the emerging urban and suburban needed for its self i rustic the nostalgic nature. Decided it was going to find andor create that thing for its. In the appalachian highlands. So i profiled this writer cap part who was a big city librarian leading a comfortable middleclass life. He goes to the mountains of North Carolina and creates this persona becomes famous doing it to establish the National Park you had to evict living and making a livelihood out of the mountains at that time. We think of National Parks as protecting nature. As always evolved eviction. In the Mountain People in the early 20 century. People discovering nature in a wonderful way. It also was people of a certain class and with a certain set of powers and privilege of building a landscape for themselves by denying it to others. And so that is part of the story. It seems even in that chapter about cap arts, is all from chapter he traveled brought back the idea that plays in here as well the idea now not only what are we going too nature for is t for recreation, for spiritual renewal, for help, but sort of the ideas of culture any sense. But yet, as you point out one has to be substituted and for another. Two. S part of the story James P Taylor in vermont i cannot fully nail it down. Was the idea of nature not only an individualistic escape for some people but its a place for our entire community can deep a connection to dh that will bring us together. Ill be economically rewarding, socially rewarding, et cetera. So again, whether you are tongue with the economics of somebody trying to get away to a retreat in the woods of the social elements, those things baked together into why and how we created the spaces. This book happens to be about the at but it could have easily been about some of the other places that we did am speaking to an english instructor, which with we did that in the 20th century. And i think have continued to do. Lets go off book for. I am curious, have done all the work on this book for years both hiking part the trail yourself, during that deep dives on the research, reading other peoples biographies surely some stores got left out. They had too. I am curious if you had a directors cut version was their one chapter, one figure, one story you ended up deciding it doesnt quite seem in but i would have this w as a bonus track. [laughter] anybody out there . Or that you had to leave behind . Or would you write for their feud more time how about that . Quick so well, i can think of a couple things. But although again to be honest this was more like writing a paper for college than i realized. Do your students have directors because they left behind are they cranking copy out to get in on time . Theyre not sheets of paper laying around the house it did not make it in. One thing i was hoping to be able to do that a i did not geto david quick so ghosted from that angle. I imagined that bill bryson would allow me too, hope its okay to show this, i had thought a way to read that chapter with access to his notebooks from his hike. I thought i could tell a behindthescenes story of his time on the trail. He was incredibly gracious about giving me time and giving me a really candid interview about the writing of the book and his career. He had no interest of his own and doing it. The days of publicizing this book or in the of his books are long behind him. He has basically retired at this point. Oobut he t took the time thatsa great thing today. I have this imagine a scenario is going to fly over too england i have pull a notebook out ofno the box and i would spend two days taking notes on that. There were some, one version of the book imagined several sideboards that would delve more deeply into some things. But most everything that i cooked up is actually in there. Thats good. Lets push a little bit further in there. What do you think was the most surprising thing you came across . Theng thing that made you thinka while, iyo never wouldve thougt thats part of the story. Coming into it from where ir did, i knew about mckay, the person but the idea out there. I really did not know about myron avery i think the only term for it is compulsively. Avery was driven, compulsive, he was rude. I think its a good thing he did hinot live in the age of the internet. He managed to dictate and mail so many letters of such Great Lengths full of such hostility towards whoever he was writing to that it is just not a mindset, approach, or personality that we would ordinarily associate with a retreat into nature. Urban planning folks like me and a lot of people know the name of robert moses who almost singlehandedly rebuilt new york city in the 20th century and the famous book about moses is titled the power broker. And myron avery was a robert moses like powerbroker over the appalachian trail. There is lots of reason to believe that if he hadnt been there and had not been that way we wouldn not have it at nowadays. It had not gotten to the point that it did before world war ii release all the effort i am not sure we would have been able to build the part that was remaining from scratch after the war. Only because it already been there once and he was so driven after having gotten it built once before the war, he drove the process of getting it rebuilt after the war. If that character hadnt been there i dont think we would have thehe trail. But definitely getting to know him was surprising. He talked a lot about the at getting built. And its built quality rates one thing to build the thing its another tong maintain it. I was very struck by this quote midway through the book were erect turned out a path through nature required a lot of effort beating back nature to keep it intact. I think that is something we rarely think about. Not just for things like hurricanes and Natural World coming through. Small things like trees falling across trails. But just the idea after one has acquired the land whether through imminent domain or donation, managing the park service or by another bureaucratic government agency, i was struck by the tension between the collaborative elements local clubs who will maintain different sections in the larger oversights that are taking place, who is of finding this, who is finding that. I really stopped to think about who actually is going out, clearing trail. Is hundreds of volunteers organized into dozens of clubs but they all fall under the umbrella of whats now called the appalachian trail conservancy. But it doess take mrs. Small staff at the atc. The folks that are out there clearing away overgrowth entries that have fallen down. Doing their best to build the trail in a way though because a less erosion. Sometimes its Building Steps in building ground cover. All of that are folks volunteering weekends and goinga together on these club outings to goo out to keep the thing running. In present day life as a Publicprivate Partnership overseeing almost all of the land the trout rents are an intern has relationships with individual clubs and individualo members i will go out there every march and make sure it is possible. That network, the pyramid is what makes the trail go. Takes a long time to pull together. And still i think it is really admirable part of the thing. Theres all sort of a partisans affiliate with different parts of the outdoor world. There a lot of folks were very partial to the crest trail on the west coast more natural demanding trail i dont care to get into that debate. It runs on sentara with their p land that doesnt have this history and the life of this Publicprivate Partnership involving hundreds of people. To the same extent. I think that is a really neat part of the history. I have to say i know there are volunteers on the pcp. I am just saying that part of the life is really what produced it in the first place. Its been a part of it ever since. And in the second half of the book, and my background growing up who was given up the almanac as a birthday present, my 13th birthday, but there are there were a lot of strong conversations about when the looks like it is the stewardship of pure wilderness. His stewardship that has access to and how to be addressed theow young people in the Natural World so they grew up interested in taking care of and preserving thinking about while the places. Sometimes that means bringing eroded tobr allow access and alo means keeping run out of never starting later years of the story in the way in which is different progressive members of our country and different environmental members occasionally bumpdi heads. When we had advocates for the wind power for example who are looking to increase Natural Energy and bumping up against people who want to have a wilderness that has not even in sight line with the built world and since the trail itself is a built landscape. And how one wrestles with those questions is a chapter that has not been written yet because its in the future like what will the 18 our relationship was the nation but will it look like as a culture is 20 years from our 30 years from now, 40 years fromro now and see not only runt this pacific case my students this past semester on the controversy or Wind Turbines that will be built on a mountain and made. And the community said that you cannot sully this trail with a view ago inhi Power Generation d other folks we think about what we care about is the environment but at this point in time we need to hear more about clean energy that about a scenic viewpoint. And will my students said was that released some data but this really caught on was you know what, we can see what people were staying with us that do not want to see Wind Turbines from the trail because what is natural and the other is Energy Producing prayed what they said to us, is the make the world whh we find ourselves in now days, the energy from the wind turbine go handinhand with the appreciation of nature and walking on the trail and you know some students were saying, will i can imagine enjoying the trail more knowing that not only was a place for me to escape and see the woods in the trees, but also to see a different Brighter Future of clean energy and so we think that in just the past couple ofed years, my students n the way that they think about in the talk about the building of environments, shifting so much from even a few years ago, and like heres a distinction said the black and white i doors think you and i grew up with. Two very different worldview and perspective is emerging out of the young folks and it is more inclusive of different people kinds of places in different ways thinking about the relationship between the built world the Natural World and you know i think simple bubble up out of that. In some ways, we certainly the leopold, then we even recognize and it is exciting adopting members of other things. Is really interesting viewpoint and i want to keep to think about it might me if you should lessen the rust belt of the literature on it and we talk about the windes in which the smokestack in the industrial smoke crepitus that was one moment sign of progress in a sign of prosperity and assigned of the future and now if anyone a picture of a smoking smokestack in an ad Campaign Come the birds were you thinking is not prosperity or progress in the future going to thinking pollution righte and so these ae not exactly. Will then from the opposite point of view, but their way in which signs and symbols shift as we think about them culturally and historically. I thinkable recent shift as well if you have smokestack and it is no smoke coming out of it, then people are thinking about that as maybe a postindustrial habitats some find our site for an urban agriculture operation of a grow food in the more the energy way and so these idea that sort of the industrial over here and agree agricultural over there and those winds are starting to blur with it as well. All these old symbols and sort of shorthand for what the world looks like you know, they dont represent the same things anymore i dont think released that is shifting quickly. In the book does a marvelous job think of showing the way in which we carry and the Natural World from our own lived world. And often times the civilized world use that there w quote the we carry with it we project onto it what we d see from it when we hope to gain by going into the wild. Even before Cheryl Strayed to the wild like what do we seek when we go there to check in with john. I can j talk all night but we oy have about ten minutes left and i wanted to see if there were questions to get or encouraging folks with questions and john where are we at. Do have questions and maybe enough to take us to the top of the hour but is folks has questions, they continue to some of them and i will try to squeeze them and before we have to go and gary wright somebody do think the can be extended to grow physically or even metaphorically, and when you writee a biography of delicious [laughter] the logic of which is actually in new york and there then expansion of International Appalachian trail which takes the geological reality of the mountains and note that they t dont just stop in maine, they go all the way up into athletic canada and all the way over to the Atlas Mountains the counterpart over into africa. So has been the separate and to create this new follow on chosen project of the appalachian trail and as a unit of the National Park service. Plenty other place there. And some of the initial versions of centros, did include not just us isolated trail on the the mountains, but thisf i trail they come down into communities or you know natural areas on the sides of the mountains but eventually connecting them to the i big cities which i think e could do more of. One place that i know what is right now you o can get on the canal towpath for the month of you know canal but in washington dc, is a protective former canal path that runs from the district of columbia to Harpers Ferry where it intersects with the appalachian trail and this idea the first one national trail system imagine this that you know you could create more sling business by creating these branches come off of it. So i think there are opportunitieshe to expand but te 80 arabs you know the vat i think that that would think theres many little time i know is protecting adjacent land prayed that partnership vocals land conservancys estate or local governments can we protect this larger piece of property to predict the trail environment see an increase in said ecological reasons and that is where mostgi of the extension is now going on as i understand it. In the next question promise question, is related and rights, the age of piecing together these trails is over 20 think that a man or demand for remote trails like these trails will lead to government continuing to develop new ones. I think that the current sociopolitical environment makes project like this a lot harder to do. And so there are ongoing efforts and also some places to piece together the trails here in our in armor with the border to border i trail that is been comg to get a little busy pieces over many many years now and the sort of the idea when federal government took responsibility for the appalachian trail in the 1970s, you know was a notion of government serving the public good that just had a much greater degree of buyin and acceptance and unfortunately come i think that we have today. So you know individuals and small scale efforts and a lot of times things can happen atan the Community Scale that dont regardless of the partisan affiliations of the people within the community, because of the operating as a Community Think of a lot more can get done if you get to these higher levels of something needing to move hundreds of miles of different communities where you have a somewhat robust public bureaucracy involved, i think the prospects for that are not great in the near term. Thank you and jeremy may be for one more question ife you want to take us or less question if theres something that you didnt get to. I was asked if you have an interview, what is the question i shouldve asked him read. Well shes everybody with flattery but you asked Great Questions so nothing immediately comes to my mind. Im just trying to think if there is anybody we didnt tip touch on from the book the deserves mentioned. We have quite a few of the chapters in one way or the other. I think if you can think of anything and i cant think of anything that something of the world is uncovered necessarily. Well. We hope is that one more time and say, this was a marvelous read phil and real pleasure to talk to you tonight to see the workout from early chapters in the humanities in our cohort there and divided between the covers and it is a marvelous read and really drew me through and i think that some marvelous contribution to both literature and about the environMental Movement in the environmental 20th century and we think of our wilderness think about place where we carry into the Natural World. Have you been thinking about what it is and what it offers us enter john will give us the link to liberally so you can all please get a copy of this marvelous book wonderful pleasure to read and pleasure to talk tode you philip danieri,. Thank you so much for doing this is very good of you to do it just had a plug in you all, the 5dollar donation for hosting the event, this will be a wonderful thing because lebron is fed here for all of us through this timely venture of the past 15 months and it is not happen phrase so soon i think you d for that and philip danii thank you for joining us and you can purchase the appalachian trail in the lincoln the chaps and the patient brought you here this evening. And also you can walk into the store and should be on ourselves pretty thank you again for joining us and we will see you all the next event, take here and have a great night. Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. 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