Transcripts For CSPAN2 Fay 20240704

Front row seat to help issues are debated decided, with no commentary, no interruptions and completely unfiltered. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Tony speaker and am very excited to introduce you to her, getting harbor professor of history and associate dean rights university and shes an expert on 19th century native American History as you special interest in the interactions between Indigenous People and people of african descent during sensory and so her first book was race in the Cherokee Nation, sovereignty in the 19th century, at her most recent book is called confederates in the American Civil War in Indian Country and of course she recognizes the cycle the book is subject toto tonight stop and it is also basically brandnew in the official publication date was two weeks ago and is a two week birthday for your book and this evening and we are excited to share it with you and he confided in all of the usual book source places as well as directly from the university of North Carolina publisher so the talk wont be around 30 35 minutes and also plenty of time for discussion at the end in a way that we do discussion event to these events before you know we do it all through the q a feature and also. So can taken the questions to the q a are anytime and so if something occurs to you feel free to targeted. And then i waited till the end and then will get to as many as are questions as you can. And wrapping things up within about an hour and 15 minutes so around 815 eastern time. So that is all for me and just want to say how grateful i am in grateful for her to be with us tonight some wonderful book and ive enjoyed reading it and looking forward to hearing the authors perspective on the book as well. Without further do, i will turn it over to the virtual podium to verso thank you very much for being with us. Thank youuc so much good evening everyone is a pleasure to be with you and its only virtually and i wouldg like to thank you for spending some of your time with me this evening like to think professor quigley for inviting me i would also like to thank professor Melinda Miller for really stimulating this afternoon as a prelude to my talk tonight. I will share some friends with you in a moment, but first i twant to just share the introduction of my paper. Then, just as we were starting to leave, here comes suffering coming across the Little Prairie sure enough and we know their indians the way they are writing the way girl strong outcome they had like an it was a red i had a big crisscross on it that looks like a and the men carrying it, and rear back on it with the wind whipped at it i thought all around of the horses that and horse pitch and rear toy keynotes something will happen. Another time, it turned dark and began to bring a little, and we get out into the big road and rain came down hard and running so hard for little while but we just had to stock awaken. And then come along more soldiers than ive ever seen before and they all white men in think they have on that brown clothes bag with walnut and butternut and to say they are confederate soldiers predict and Lucinda Davis enslavement by vizcaya of indian offered one of the few existing accounts of the battle of Holly Springs in late july of 1863. Tribes seen the approach during the confederate battle like in the weather conditions there were able to hunt the white confederate groups and her account heard the sound so my courses and way out somewhere in davis offers compelling testimony about the farreaching and destructive power ofe the battle the civilian publishing and on the land scape. When im most in tonight is the experience native cultures and when we dont know soldiers on horseback and writing style was so distinctive that a visitor fellow spectators identified them as indians from a distance. What can we say about their experiences in the Confederate Army to answer these questions, will turn to the Service Workers National Archives and compiled Service Records of confederate soldiers who served in organizations directly from the federal government. This title suggests that authorities from the Confederate States of america listed these troops into service. However, choctaw legislative documents from the era revealed that choctaw spent a great deal of time talking about their commitment to the Confederate States of america and raising this force. So here i will share screen so that we can make sure were all on the same page about where we are in terms of location. So im most interested in the choctaw nation which you can see here in this the south east corner of indian territory at this time. And i focus on the choctaws because of their strong commitment to the confederacy, which is what i explore in the larger book project. Here is my moment of shameless selfpromotion dr. Quigley did some for me but this talk and more on this subject can be found in in my new book chalk talk confederates and the strength of their commitment which we can talk about in about in thetalk qanda i think is best exemplified by the fact that they passed the statute to say anything negative about the confederacy that is how strongly theyde are committed. Ic with of this judicial system they could choose to align or remain neutral altogether during the war. Analyze and agreed to place under confederate officers with the confederacy paying 500,000 to arm and equip the troops which enlisted the record title that will be demonstrated by examining the actual documents which i will show you in a moment. In addition i supplement the accounts from the soldiers more broadly to create a full pitcher of the experiences. The majority of these records consist of the department to facilitate efficiently and determining individualnd eligibility from the others benefits. A jacket with of the soldiers name from a company and rank and other parts associated with his record. There were sufficient numbers with the person stated known as calvary. It often contains a fill in the blank role the company name and information on this form as well. Listed on june 12th 1861 blue county for 12 months he is enlisted and you can see this info from the company must have rolled from july 26, 1862. In this kind of reverse with of the handwriting and compiled them into a database so especially useful is the remarks section and it states the enlistee was present about promotions and work duties. Sometimes the bounty pay and receivable for 50 along with petitions for correspondence regarding the soldier. Less frequently there are other miscellaneous documents often handwritten included in the soldiers jacket. Ive spent a little bit of time giving you the description of the records because there is often a misconception there arent a lot of records regarding the native populations that are available. We can do a number of things with reading of the records that we do have or looking more deeply to see if there are other records that we might be able to find combined with other information to createso an experience. Th to remind you of the kind of information available. So given the time constraint i will touch on some of the info from the records. First the records indicate that it served for the confederacy than we previously knew and a second they give a sense of change taking place and we can also use the records to infer connection between people who serve and in particular i will look at what the record can tell about enlistment and how the fluctuations can vary. Of the records provided a glimpse of the experiences in the civil war that it wasnt a just a rupture between northern and Center States but other native groups were drawn into the dispute. So the contemporary foundation must approximately 1200 troops served on the side of the confederacy by the middle of the civil war and the Service Records of 100 individuals for the totality of the war and of these 3100 troops translate to 17. 2 of the total population or 20 if you exclude enslaved persons. In the United States and accounted for 14 of the population and 8. 3 of the confederacy and border states. If the population of the self a record of 12. 5 served and that the confederacy. So to say while 3100 might seemn like a small number, as a proportion of the population is quite large and substantial so this figure of 3100 is much lower than the 10,000 troops. Its astonishing given the combined population of the populations at the time with less t than 23,000 people including the enslaved population. They can furnish 10,000 warriors if needed. They are extremely anxious to form another regimen. The data included in the compiled military Service Records about individual soldiers and can reveal aspects ofin the changing nature. Heres an example of some of the names we can see in the records. You will see names for thomas jefferson,ge jefferson davis, private each 25 but also more traditional names. You see these blended names where a european root of a name combined with and then the surnames of prominent families in the political arena are important families that produce district. Something as simple as the names on the enlistment records can reveal broader changes worth taking place in the society. It also provides opportunity for similar data and i will summarize to sayge the average e was a little bit older than the average age of enlistees in the union army and on that confederate soldiers. So there is the enlistees age 20 to 28 and we wonder if they all mustered into the same company on the same day july 30th at the same location. Similarly,43 age 43 both joined september 2nd, 1864 because they have beenan a father and son and a son andhopes joining togethers of one another. They are silent about such connections and the History Collection is similar to the wpa. With personal papers with the military records. We know for certain that you did joined together cousins, fathers and sons and we shouldnt be surprised that we see certain kinds of patterns. And another kind of record, another piece of data that is straightforward is the question of company assignments. Its also known as company i. We have other companies. The Company Names were printed on these enlistment records so they occur and people knew the companies by these other names and the walking snake and captain name is a translation of his name and so i think its interesting to ponder that traditional language name was included. Similarly, they may have found which means to dress up or embellish. The presence of the traditional names on the military record exemplify how much this quintessentially american event included other people who couldnt identify. The date on the records, the date in place muster the records patterns about when and where the soldiers and listed almost 70 of the record was this information that only makes sense if you think about trying to keep track of how long peoples enlistment period lasts. You definitely want to keepp track of when and where they and listed so you know when and where the service should end. So we can see in the records that the majority of the enlistments took place in 1861, june and july were especially popular. 950 soldiers and listed in these two months alone and this enthusiasm for the confederacy is even more remarkable given that they didnt sign a treaty until july of 1861 so they are committing to fight in the war even before the legislature had officially cited with the confederacies of the enthusiasm is high. The historian notes that the work of consolidating began on the confederate government and they already passed a resolution in support of the Southern States in february of 1861 the treaty of alliance wouldnt have come for five more months. Before an official treaty of alliance had been signed it shows over 100 troops and listed in may of 61 specifically on ma. Known as a particular stronghold because of a large number of slaveholders so that explains the high number of enlistments ints this area and it might have been processed by the neighboring state of arkansas less than one week prior 1861. Each served as capitals of the nation that seem like logical sites for companies. Nearly 800 men and listed in the regiment during the second year and january, march and july were especially popular times. Of the almost 200 that joined the regimen in january may have been spurred to action by the november and december battles that took place in the indian territory. Coalescing around who we can see in the rendering here. So his wife was a slaveholder, he promised freedom for enslaved people and many in the nearby ran away to join him. There were lots when they get a break for the north. Moreover many favorite the loyal camps that were growing inside. Some estimated 9,000 followers so only 2,000 would have been citing that. Colonel Douglas Cooper read over 14 supplemented by the texas calvary. Each ofse the battles. Cherokee presbyterian ministers wrote in january of1862. Unless there is considerable force of confederate troops on the border to oppose another nickname. Nearly 230 f and listed in march again for the same area. Of the company is raised in the county formed on march 10th in response to the battle at the ridge at the tavern in nearby arkansas. Heres one battle from 1899 so after the war and here is a 20th century which we could talk about if you would like. This was produced in a part of a celebration of the war centennial and its bob saunders and at the back of the card had a summary of the war and a black hole collection included 88 cards, ed seven with images and then a card that was the checklist. Albert pulled back the forces in thee territory isolated. I hope what i am giving you a sense of and trying to argue is that you can see that these battles can spur enlistment activities that they are happening obviously in the larger world where they are paying attention to the events and political activity and battles and this can encourage or discourage enlistment among the troops. So because i want to be mindful of our time and i always have more stuff than i should, im going to jump ahead a little bit to mention the massacre that takes place in the chickasaw nation. You canan see the star marking that. And i want to bring this up because it demonstrates that during the war there can be tensions within groups and between native groups that are magnified by whats happening in the war. So the agency is the least district and at the center of the action. But groups have signed willingly with theat medicine included in the treaty and continued despite the share of loyalty to the confederacy the tension rose that the agent moved his family to texas. When the Union Raiders which was reportedly included members of the shawnee delaware simental, cherokee tribe infiltrated the agency because of their frustrations and the confederate government kept promises. Reports of the suspected cannibalism suddenly focused the various groups. Theylo reported after they lost3 of the warriors and women and children in the massacre. The American Civil War exacerbated tensions in the group between the native groups and in some ways echoing the notion of the war as a fight that puts brother against brother or friend against friend rather than the enthusiasm for the confederacy. We see the enlistment numbers declined sharply. At nearly 862. In the larger confederacy by 1863 the civil war has gone on much longer than anyone expected. The realities of fighting antisubrogation and being proficientnt extinguished the enthusiasm. As the confederate officer wrote to his wife in 1863 im sick of war and of the separation from the objects of life. Surely many soldiers would have agreed with the sentiment. David perkins for instance revised to the command in the chickasaw by a german in 1863 because of the physical miss harmony and last but not least, the reason is to stay at home and provide for them these men felt the tug of family at home and suffering as the war i continued. The enlistments that did occur in the first half in february, march and april we have the emancipation proclamation from Abraham Lincoln that took effect in parts of states but what it was while it was unclear if the proclamation to the territory knew that it did to spread to the indian territory of nothing else sometimes informed of the change in status. So this woman learned of emancipation when soldiers arrived at her cherokees plantation perhaps more relevant to w the military enlistments ws the activity in the Cherokee Nation the prounion faction of the claims rightful authority to govern and establish a new legislature in february of 1863 and one of the first acts was to abolish slavery in the Cherokee Nation. While many slaveholders didnt recognize the legitimacy of this new government and likely the fact remains the actions brought evolution and at the prospect of emancipation to the heart of the indian territory. For some, it may have hardened the resolve and the enlistments with locations in the district closer to the Cherokee Nation. On the other hand, perhaps the emancipation and lincolns proclamation led many others to see the chances for success declining and affected the overall enlistment numbers. In july the battles took place. You can see the map here and some of the enlistments have been taking place. If we go to the battle right here, you can see these also may have affected the enlistment numbersom for moving military supplies from kansas to indian territories and the battle consisted of a series stand at the way they attempted to capture the federal. Theil confederates eventually failed and claimed more remarkable is the diversity of the forces present the troops from colorado, wisconsin and kansas, the confederate indian troops, texas partisans and the first volunteers all clashed on the battlefields. The calvary described the federal forces attempting the crossing and the major consisted of the indians of the regimen and second in colorado and captain Stewarts Company the ninth and kansas, major foreman followed by the captain of the third indian advancement industry. Its amazing the confluence of troops that have participated in this battle. The words paint a portrait fighting together to preserve the country. In fact the historian suggested the unions could have been a model for future of the United States. Here you can see a very pixelated aversion of the battle flag based on the nation and the arrow at the center. Like the creek its also located along the importance of the route ofan texas and in july of 1863 the Confederate Forces usec for location to prepare an attack on fort gibson and push the federal forces out of indian territory. Soldiers amassed at Holly Springs. Here is a pitcher of that from harpers weekly and it brought the supplies and preparation for the march. Again the fighting would include the ancestry of african ancestry and the euroamerican a fact not lost on the men involved as they waited for the command to advance, the colonel told the man in the first volunteers this is the day that we have been patiently waiting for. If the enemy gave the opportunity of showing them what men can do fighting for their natural rights and recently acquired freedom and freedom of their children and their childrens children. Colonel williams also assessed the performance after the fighting. Today the rebels received a lesson that in my opinion top then not to despise over having no rights [inaudible] i had long been of the opinion they had a right to kill traders and the capacity. Colonel williams understood the meaning of color troops on the battlefield for themselves for them and that they faced. Private edward of the first was tlon the other side of the batte lines and the color troops made an impact on him as well. He remarked it wasnt long before the federal calvary found us and came over with of the the troopsto give insight. We had one site and it was a standup fight i never did to see so many. Soldiers everywhere not just in the south were impressed by the action of the troops during the war. The confederates failed at the springs because of the munitione supplies and in part the combined actions of the regimen and the indiana home guard. The confederates outnumbered the federals by 21 but route number 31he and the quality of the confederate gunpowder meant the battle of july 17th according to the general cooper. As it raged on the federal indian home guard regimen inadvertently misled the 20th and the 29th texas calvary into atthinking they were retreating and they pursued only to be met with a body of bullets from the first and forced to pull back. Then they picked up the texas colors. Walker arrived with chickasaw troops and was able to hold federal forces of the Confederate Forces continue to retreat. A private from the first chickasaw mountain rifle remembered about half a mile out on the prairie at which time they charged on them and helped until the train could get out of the way. Then native troops that were important to both confederates and federal forces in the battle is the troops spared the order that the destruction of supplies and munitions located in Honey Springs. The corporal of the confederate indian brigade left the squad that set fire. Formerly enslaved person henry clay had been remembered in the smoke and fire as they burned up pennies brings that in reality but he likely saw was the result ofio the action rather than federal action. Some enslaved people also noticed the battle described as fighting and retreat years later. From the lectures opening all day and along in the evening here comeki the south side makig a getaway. They come riding by and it makes no difference how much they holler at them they cant make it. The description matches the comments that confederate troops scattered that caused confusion and we had a general stampede. Likewise, private reported they stampeded for the mountains and almost got away. Banks is uncle jacobs told her the fighting at honey creek was the most terrible fighting he had ever seen that the unionk soldiers went back to support gibson and the rebels were chased all over the country and beside each other for a long time the way he told it. The family had been owned by a creek family and followed. Uncle jacob had returned to the territory when the federal groups testified. A disheartened private from the u 20th texas calvary seemed to confirm uncle jacobs account. I believe they were with us all the time until we are reinforced from texas and another point. We gotca so much that it was the days getting together and not all have come in yet. It seems that they truly have scattered across the country and do not regroup immediately for a counterattack or another engagement. Sohe this battle proved to be a large battle on the indiann territory based on the numbers approximately 9,000 men that year and nearly 6,000, approximately 9,000, close to 6,000 confederate and close to 4,000 union soldiers. The confederates lost free and free Union Control and allowed federal troops to take fort gibson. Some view Honey Springs as a turning point for the Confederate Forces in the indian territory after which the troops no longer defended the area in an organized manner. Moreover the victory gave an avenue described as the fiercest most steadfast of the nation and the confederacy. Given the scale of the fighting it comes as no surprise that the first did not see any new enlistment for the remainder of the year. They sent troops to strengthen the position in the territory in july of 1863 handed Confederate Forces and they were back on their heels and soldiers may have used this effort as ar losing one overall. So the Service Records for the soldiers of the first provide a window to the experiences of civil war soldiers and indian territory. The troops often didnt leave other types of records such as journals or diaries or letters home or rarities. Service records include Important Information about natalie and how long the unmolested and the kind ofk work theyg performed. The accompanying records in the service of jackets while uneven and predictable offer further glimpses. Some of the records i havent discussed today track the movement of the federal prisoners of war from camp to camp and show that some would choose to swear the oath of loyalty and even join the union. Others prisoners of war were exchanged. The records also included more mundane the consequential information such as petitions for promotion, letters of resignation and certificates of disability. The records offer the opportunity to add to their status about the Troop Movement and battle losses and the pitcher emerges of the enthusiastic and the role he is at the beginning of the war to support for the were waned as they were plagued by the provision and desertion at the work and they consider the confederates were not so different from southern confederates inre many respects. Thank you. Weve already got some good questions coming in and i would like to encourage the audience to keep those coming in. Weve got a couple of questions both people askingf this questin kind of based on what you said and based on other knowledge that it was one of those cases where they joined with the confederacy because the enemy is my friend and they obviously had a strange history with the United States. One of the people asking this kind of question journals a parallel with of the American Revolution were some native americans cited with one side or the other because the way they have been treated. So, what would you say about the primary motivation citing with the confederacy . I think they were interested in a couple of things. One, they were interested in protecting their sovereignty and protecting their identity and i think i sometimes think the joke that i dont know if everyone will like this joke but i make the joke that for the argument about states rights actually had a real meaning, meaning that they understood this in the moment they could predict sovereignty. Surely people that are claiming to want to have states rights would recognize the sovereignty of thehe nations and moreover, e confederate government promises all kinds of things, they promise to recognize sovereignty and pay for all of the costs related to the war and offer them representation in the and e confederate congress, so i think one layer of it is that they are attempting to preserve choctaw sovereignty and another support for the confederacy has to do with their support of african descent. They are slaveholders, they have an economy in which slavery is an important part and they are producing for the market. It is a little bit different. T they produce more corn than cotton which isnt what you see in the larger self, but they are using slave labor and they are creating a society that has a racial hierarchy so i think that is another reason why they support the confederacy. They have all these connections and ties as well. The indian agents that the federal government has sent to work with of the native nations are by and large from the south so they are going to have this relationship and be proposed that the native nations should support the veteran causes. They are the funds that are due to the nation a lot of them are invested in Southern Companies and southern concerns. So theres also an element of thinking if we dont slide with of the self are we going to lose all these investments that have been made on our behalf. So there are a lot of factors that push them in that direction, but i think i argue that paramount is this concern for the sovereignty and the desire to protect the sovereignty of that is connected to the desire to preserve the identity and the fact that they are practicing the enslavement of the people with african incentives and the confederacy promises to protect that so thats an important factor in their decision. Definitely. And would you say that confederates genuinely saw the choctaws as equal in this kind of racial fellow slaveholders that had that common interest or is it more of an alliance . I would go with the latter an alliance of convenience and i say that because there are these moments where there are these coming to the confederacy to the native nations because they see the indian territory is a place they dont want them to side withnm the federal government because its making in and rode into the issue. Theres that motivating the desire to have the native nations as allies. But there are these and they recognize the slaveholders and trade with of them et cetera but then theres these moments in the treaty agreement that they make with the chickasaw for instance, where they answered where the confederate government inserts authority iny a way that reveals that they do not respect their sovereignty so when they make the offer you could have someone be a delegate and the government they then want to supervise the election. Why does the confederate government need to supervise the government and the chickasaw or the choctaw. Theyve been conducting elections for quite some time you do seem to know what they are doing so moments like that for where they make stipulations in the alliance that its the choctaws land or make any land of session agreements then they forfeit all the land. Thats the kind of requirement you make when you see yourself in a position of authority over thatnd population and then you have also these statements from confederate soldiers where they talk about native troops and in pretty racist terms. The language that seems very familiar if you look at how the tsoldiers talk about colored troops, the lack of discipline, dont take care of their uniforms into the same kind of language. So i think that there is definitely they are not seeing them as equal. A different kind of questiong on the kind of military side of things. You told us about the then indian territory the soldiers fought. Did they fight in any battles . The native nations are the requirements of the alliance with confederacy they cant be asked to fight outside of indian territory without their permission. So they feel very committed to staying in that indian territory unless they agreed to do it. So, the example that usually comes out is where there is a massacre of colored troops and its choctaw troops that are described as being vicious. So they can go outside of indian territory and they are not going to go on the eastern seaboard unless there mayof be examples e know there are scouts in other areas. But i havent seen evidence of them going all the way to the eastern seaboard, and again theyve been quitehe clear that they have to agree if they are going to go somewhere else that is indian territory. We have a couple of questions about slavery on the choctaw people. Just kind of generally what was slavery like in the choctaw nation and another question about the choctaw or the chickasaw made any kind of official statement about slavery or the enslaved people in the civil war and the place of slavery as a motivation for choctaw or chickasaw involvement. So, in terms of what slavery looked like in the choctaw nation, theres a whole chapter in my book. [laughter] or for the chickasaw nation you can see barbara krauthammers book. But in general it looks a lot like what you think of as slavery and the American South. As of again, the mix of Crop Production can be a little bit different, but there are those that are large slaveholders that are producing cotton from market. Theres examples of broad rrmarriages meaning marriages where the enslaved partners dont live on the same plantation. I would Say Something thats a little bit different is that you see examples of sometimes enslaved people serving as interpreters because sometimes you have enslaved people that may have been enslaved in a ngplace like georgia or alabamar something and speak english but then now are first in the language into so you have that happen sometimes where there are enslaved people serving as interpreters in the nation so that probably would come as a surprise to people but in many ways they are very similar to the larger American South. There are some accounts that you see where enslaved people in the autobiographies and narratives later will say that native masters are kinder but we also have accounts of native masters beingte quite cool. So i think theres a spectrum of treatment just like in the larger American South theres a spectrum of treatment of enslaved peoples by masters that based on the masterau not so muh because they are an enemy of nation. If you take the account of some white southerners who describe whats happening in choctaw nation and indian territory, there are, they will often say things which i think we can assume are tinged by racism, so the native masters are lazy and they dont know how to control their slaves or how to do work where they are not a good good s like effective masters and i dont know if we have evidence of that order if that is just of the rhetoric that those people are using because they are trying to Say Something negative about the native masters. So thats a little bit and ihe lost the second half of the question. Any kind of an official statement where the choctaw and chickasaw came out and say because of slavery or slavery means this to us. And that kind of way. They there are, let me see, there are statements where the principal chief or other choctaw officials, things like southern in t every respect, they see things like that, southern and every respect for where they talknd about the purchase and se of enslaved people or theres a letter p from a prominent choctw where he talks about why lincoln is a problem and that they are not for emancipation and letters where kind of the same thing that you see white slaveholders say like say hi to my people from me meaning they are enslaved people, so its a very similar in terms of the way they are talking about it. Now, do we have an Alexander Stephens cornerstone moment, no. We do not have a cornerstone moment on business nation rolle. Up on this. No, we dont have that. Not that i found yet. So, one of the things i really like about your book is the way you talk about the sources he used and that came up in the talk tonight with a compiled service record. You showed examples. Ts in the book itself you also talk a fair amount about the narratives how you approach those and you had some thoughtful and interesting things to say about that so i wonder if you can share a bit with of the audience tonight with the sources are like, how you use them and what kinds of cautions you have to take when using those sources. So if folks are not familiar with them the administration slave narrative are an amazing resource. I think at this point theres 50 volumes organizediz by state, bt thats a little bit misleading because like the texas narratives are people who were interviewed in texas not necessarily good been enslaved in texas so these narratives developed because during the Great Depression when they are putting people to work they are also putting writers to work to collect these narratives and it really starts with black academics who send their students out from historically black colleges to go out and interview formerly enslaved people because they realize that they are getting older and 60 years after emancipation that this is ae valuable resource fading away so these academics do some of this early interviewing of people and then the Progress Administration picks up the mantle of that and puts the writers to work and has them go out and interview formerly enslaved people. And i ask about all kinds of food, punishment, relationships, church, religious practices, and there is a similar thing that happens with the indian pioneer history. Again interviewing bill in the indian territory in the century. The wpa slave narrative, you have to be very careful how you work with them so some states are overrepresented like arkansas. Theres too many narratives in arkansas. The distribution of the enslaved population. They are obviously going to be the words people very young at the time of emancipation because its so many years factor. Another complaint is that peoples memory might not be so good that many years after. Theres a great article in the journal of southern history thats about how may be event narratives tell you more about the moment of the Great Depression than they do about the past because there is a lot of descriptions of food and those narratives and if you rethink about people that are literally starving because of the depression, you could imagine a lot of discussion of good food that you had in the past. But other problems include that some of the interviewers sent out to interview the formerly enslaved people are related to people that enslaved those being interviewed. We see a difference in terms of for instance holding informants talk about punishment if the interviewer is white or if the interviewer is black. There are also some things you have to think about in terms of how the interviewer is surrendering the persons voice. So there are these narratives where the interviewer asks the question that the informantip responds and this is included in the transcription that i always find kind of amazing. Is this how you talk when youre with your own people . I want you to talk with me the way you would with your owns people. So you have this first part of the standard english then once the person has asked the oinformant i want you to talk to me the way you talk to your own people, Everything Else is in dialect then you wonder is it in dialect because the person actually spoke to you in dialect or did you decide that you shouldak be speaking in dialect . So im giving you all these reasons why we have to be careful or a little bit skepticalrc of the sources. However, if you use them carefully, if you think about another transcription problem, i dont know how old i am, it will say. I dont know how old i am but the person will write it as i dontn know and zero how old i am. How do you know the informant doesnt know the difference between no and knowing. So if you read them carefully and then compare them to other kind of material that we have, then look for patterns within the narrative where you see a comment mentioned by many informants over geography then you can make some good suppositions about how accurate they are and the last thing i would say about them is, two things i would say about them, one they are held to a kind of scrutiny that sometimes other forces are n not about held up. And we should be asking these kind of questions of all the sources that we look at, why do these in particular have to be so concerning for people, so thats one. Number two, theres this amazing opportunity to hear from enslaved people in their own voice as much as we can see that its their own voice. Its so unique that we have this way to access some of their thoughts and feelings. Or a population that was prohibited from gaining literacy and they could record themselves at the time so i think they are really valuable and powerful and then sometimes they include photos so you can actually see the person being interviewed which again, i just think its amazing. And i tell my students in class all the time, slavery isnt as far away from the present moment as we think. These are people from the 20th century that were alive and experienced enslavement. That its not a distant past. Its much closer than perhaps, uncomfortably close to us at times. I couldnt agree more. Maybe we can move on to the few minuteshe last which you also get into in youri book. One of the questions is about relations with of the u. S. The. Government and some attitudes towards the confederate government after the war and the confederacy city mask that they regret what they have done and did they i suffer for what theye done in their relations to the u. S. Government after the war . Its interesting because you get a kind of rewriting of what happened later. So, i gave all these examples of wild, they are and listing e before the treaty of alliance has even been signed. They are getting these locations to sign up to muster and service. What you get after the war is statementsie from the principal chief that say things like we have no other choice. We were forced into this position. We would have chosen Something Else if we could have. So, you definitely getting rewriting and a minimization of that enthusiasm and desire to enlist that wet see if we look t these records, so thats definitely happened. The second thing that we do see is that yes, but it definitely is and affect on the onrelationship between the natie nations and the federal government. They get reconstructed just like the larger self does and so theres a treaty that forces them to accept the formerly enslaved people that they owned so they dont have to take the formerly enslaved people from texas. They have to accept them as citizens. And because land is so uncommon, this gives those three people land and thats a huge difference obviously than what happens in the larger self, so its a very different pitcher because they are in the choctaw nation are the chickasaw nation versus in georgia or alabama et cetera. They get access to land. Now do they get access to the same amount of land as other people as citizens by blood, no, but they still get access to land and of that has about has , which Melinda Miller could tell people all about so there is a consequence for the free the people, but the larger consequences that the federal government can use the participation on the side of the confederacy to work to be punitive in ways that allow them to get access to our land and to chip away at native sovereignty and native selfgovernment, so there are different consequences. Yes, make them go, so the initial response is no, we dont want to make them citizens and five federal government withholds money waiting for them to comply. So then they say yeah we still wantd them gone you gave up the money we told you we didnt want them so the people actually exist in a weird kind of legal limbo. Thats how they pass the bill to clarify their status. The Cherokee Nation this is the subject of my first book they do things like the newspaper that the choking have to getf back to a free nation and a time limit if they want to be eligible for citizenshipee which is tough because some did what many others do in refugee and elsewhere so its hard for the population you put an ad in the newspaper. So the Cherokee Nation does that and they are forced to grant citizenship and limit your Political Rights so they are able to access land and theres other kinds of limitations if they make possible so i thank you. But most of all thank you to the speakers and for giving us such a wonderful talk answering the questions as well. We appreciate the conversation and of the time you took. Everyone i think is going to be interested to go outbs to the website and i think that you will enjoy it. Its definitely worth going out and getting at. The American People are on john f. Kennedy. So much so but then the fire is yet to come and then they can simply cant anticipate. The American People at that time in another era but when kennedy suffers this huge black eye with of the quagmire where the nationalists are killed and 1200 are taken captive and the American People approve to the tune of 83 only 5 disapprove of the job approval at that time. For the hearts and the minds of the soviet union we know how important it was to put all we had behind the inexperienced. Become as close as weve ever come. At the height of the cuban missile crisis it was at night and they had a long conversation in the oval office and kennedy decides he wants to go skinnydipping and he uses i dont have suit and he says you dont need one but he believes the white house and goes through the gates not knowing whether theres going to be a tomorrow. That is how dark those days were. At the peak comes after that way where canedy stands at the peak of the presidency. It has resolved against all odds and he gains the esteem