Transcripts For CSPAN2 Campaign 2020 Discussion On Election Lessons Learned 20240711

2020 election and the qs of the u. S. Electoral process. We are about the legal challenges brought forward by the Trump Campaign and how the American People perceive the integrity of the results. The center for American Progress is the host, this is about an hour. Subject this year we saw significant strength in our electoral system. Ultimately our system deck demonstrated democracies resilience we saw a higher share of the voting eligible population than any time in the last 120 years. That is a great site of the vibrancy of democracy but at the heavy load for a lecture to biggest ration vertically during the pandemic the conditions around covered for states to adopt quickly to a once in a century pandemic that meant shifting to mailin ballots recruiting new and younger poll workers and confronting prohibition in some states against counting mail ballots prior to election day. Sadly we also saw the effects of disinformation shared by politicians. And amplified over digital platforms and continue to impact monee butter confidence. Our democracy has remained strong because our elected leaders those seeking office and state and local Election Officials appreciated the importance of Public Confidence in our election and did their jobs. Election day was remarkably normal. People voted many before election day to be sure and then votes were counted. Litigation ensued with Election Results. We look both backward and forward asking what went right, what did it, what lessons we should learn what this all means to fortifying our elections. With Election Outcomes for us so pleased to introduce to the panelists that we have here today for this discussion. Im really thrilled to have them. First ben ginsburg counsel to multiple president ial state, local campaigns and is a former cochair of the bipartisan president ial commission on election administration. He also for those have not seen it has a terrifically on points opinion peace in the Washington Post, published i believe just yesterday. And i think a lot of what he had and that we will be talking about today. We welcome jenae nelson associate director general of the naacp education fund. As issues of domestic and partisan laws at rates in criminal justice but is a contributor on various media and work of the president and direct counsel of the lgf to determine and execute lgf Strategic Vision and operations. And we have norm morency resident scholar, American Enterprise Institute Board chair, camping legal. Among many other things norm has previously served as codirector of the ai brookings election reform project and senior counselor to the continuity of government commission. It could all see why im so excited to have all that we have here today, participating with us. And we will have an opportunity for everyone at the end to be able to ask questions. So please in the audience fill free to send in your questions as we go. And i would like to start for all three of our panelists with a question that kind of centers us and the date and time that we are in and that tomorrow, december 8 is known as a safe harbor deadline for states to appoint their elect touro college. Can you briefly discuss, explain to those in her audience the importance of the safe harbor date . And in addition to that whether there any last we should participate with canceling electoral votes which as we note congress to be doing on januar january 6 . So december 8 why does it matte matter . Well, because there is a provision in the old electoral count act of 18778 somewhat arcane law we blissfully never really had to deal with in this election. But that is the date that the states have their slate of electors complete. Which i think all the states do at this point. They are presumptively correct when Congress Goes to count them on january 6. Norm . Vicki said december 8 is the deadline for resolving any election disputes. We know this election has been bombarded with a number of disputes in court that have largely been rejected by the president suggesting there was voter fraud. And vote tampering. In illegitimacy and the election. That has been roundly rebuked. And so the hope is that tomorrow allstate recounts or contest or any other disputes concerning the president ial election will be completed and certification will happen. There are other significant dates that follow tomorrows safe harbor deadline. Including on december 14 where the electors in each state in meat and cast their ballots for president and Vice President those belts are than received by the president of the senate on december 23. And then on january 6 the congress meets in a joint session to count the ballots. It ultimately there should be a peaceful transition of power on january 20 when the president elect becomes the president. So we hope that everything, you know all of the order it has followed for over a hundred years. And that we can rely on a peaceful transition. I think we know there might be something between now and then. Let me just add there are legal consequences here. Part of that electoral count. That has been said it was presumptively clear once states have certified that congress will accept those. There is that normative elements of this as well. We know from the Washington Post reports yesterday, they had 25 reporters canvass every republican in the House Speaker and senate. And barely 12 have acknowledged that joe biden is president elect. One should assume that once it becomes semi official, when these court cases have been either resolved or have moved by this date that it is a point at which members can say alright, this is over. All except the shouting. Although we have no strong reason to believe that will actually be the case. And we know that there are still challenges Going Forward. Even though the november date has been met by all the states. Thanks norm. Let me turn back if i might to get your perspective from an election lawyer who has counseled multiple president ial camp pains and you have a unique view into what has happened this year. What would you say in terms of how would you describe the most important stress point that you have seen. What steps you think are needed to make sure we improve Going Forward. Lets wrap into that what norm had said how concerned are you about what may yet happen between now and january 6 . Fair enough. I agree with your framing this was a unique election. Donald trump and his rhetoric attacking the very foundations of the system was solely unique. No president ial candidate from a major party has done it the way that President Trump did. Of course the pandemic played a role in that as well. The very polarized nature of the country as a whole, also plays a role in what we saw and what the stress was. And interestingly enough in that polarized time, we also had recordbreaking turnout. So those are all, as a combustible mixture at there. At the e right now, the country came through pretty well. There are certainly trauma for four weeks. But at this point all the states have certified the results. There are certainly procedural steps that members of the House Speaker and the senate can take on january 6. But it is a little hard to imagine them going. So what we saw in terms of stress points was a number of laws that could use some improvement. The auditory account at is one the way we handle absentee ballots is another. There are a number of points are laid out and not from yesterday that could be performed. I think one thing that we saw about our system is that while we are a country of laws, it was remarkable how our officials did the right thing and an incredibly stressful element. That is a human element. Im especially proud of the republican officials that stood up to the onslaught of the president. And stood up way their states were supposed to work. And the tools they used to do that, which we will discuss in a little bit is really important. I think there are some interesting lessons to be learned from this. From a republican perspective, they do just hot fine and the high turnout election. Its true the lost presidency but in theyre down ballot races republicans did just fine and that high turnout election. The other thing and i suspect it will be talking about this more if i say it. The democrats showed they can win and tight states where there are voter identification in place. Georgia, wisconsin, arizona is in the strictest laws in the country. Democrats one. Some stood up to the president to point to the voter identification rules to give them a basis on which to say the president is wrong, we ran good elections. I think each party needs to reexamine some of the basic premises its used in these issues. Sure enough go ahead. I just want to add a couple of things to what ben said. The first is i think we can all offer kudos to the Election Officials around the country of democrats and republicans. Ive been watching elections just about as long as ben which is a long time. [laughter] i have never seen an election that was run this smoothly. We always have glitches, it is the nature of the process. You will have issues that arise. There were fewer of them with this amazingly high turnout election that i can remember. Everybody stepped up to the plate including thousands of people who devoted a lot of time to making this happen. But in particular secretaries of state in key states, the governors that been mentioned. And now weve seen judges from across the board step up. The president and his allies have filed a huge number four cases. One and 48. Judges have look at the evidence such as it is. And made judgments. That is the good news. The bad nose especially is more on the informal fronts. It starts with the president and what he has been saying about this. But it extends further down. Probably saw last night the secretary of state in michigan , estate that was not closed by any standard. With joe biden by over 150,000 votes. She was with her 4yearold doing Christmas Decorations when a group of heavily armed thugs gathered outside the house in the dark, chanting and shouting obscenities of bullhorns. That is all a part of what is a broader misinformation and disinformation is being spread by a lot of people, including people who should know better, Newt Gingrich the former speaker of the house among them saying on fox this morning that ballots were counted in Foreign Countries and shifted all over the place. Well we need to do the terrific things ben suggested, we have to try and change the norms in the system or we will lose the confidence in our election process. Even when it is run really, really wellpaid thanks ben. Jenae i would be interested in your reaction to ben and norms comments. But also in addition to that this may be implicit in what they said, seems to me with efforts to disenfranchise voters in large urban areas for exampl example. Can you discuss that as well as any reaction you may have with they said . Not sure. I agree with the kudos letter over almost 9000 Election Officials of the country deserve and ensuring our ballots were largely counted without any interruptions about the pressures of the sadness ration to do otherwise. I do have to provide a contrarian view in terms of how smoothly the election ran pretty did not run smoothly for everyone in the country. Im not smoothly just on election day but months leading up to the election with the crisis of the pandemic, providing that are already there often marginalized and excluded from the electorate. We are now months out from election day that assessment reveals a very persistent of permanent disparities to casting a ballot the real defense fund is a nonpartisan organization, for the past 20 years we have engaged in nonpartisan Election Protection efforts. We along with the other Civil Rights Organization we have had the hotline folks may have heard about it were we field calls on election day from election day loan the hotline received 32000 calls reporting various incidents in various obstacles that we had to run down his during the early voting. This was the line and milwaukee during early voting in largely African Americans were standing up for hours to get access to ballots. We also know there are a number of efforts to malign africanamerican voters who live in predominately black cities like philly, like detroit, like atlanta for the president suggested theres widespread voter fraud and urge Election Officials not to count and certify those ballots. So i have to push back that this election ran smoothly. Because in all aspects it did not. There is a peace pushing back on this very idea. Because it simply was not the lived experience of many black voters buried or the organizations that are devoted to protecting their votes. The truth is that there was a torrent of obstacles to keep black voters from exercising the right to vote. I can give me just a few examples in addition to the hotline matters that we saw there were documented reports of armed people showing up at the polls similar to what norm mentioned concerning the secretary of state. They were voters who face similar threats and they went to cast their ballots. Individuals were black lives matter shirts which took away from voting in tennessee and georgia per b also received complaints about old state flag bearing a confederate emblem this flying outside a bank pulling site in mississippi. One of our poll monitor volunteers in alabama was threatened with arrest as she tried to monitor polls nonpartisan poll watching experts. Were set on fire there were robo calls gnomic to voters in michigan threatening them if they voted against the presiden president. Theres also voter intimidation calls and mail in detroit, new york, ohio, illinois and pennsylvania. That is just a slice of some of the challenges that we face. We had to do order to have access to voters in louisiana alabama and mississippi in light of the pandemic. And the owners of witness signature requirements that were so placed upon them despite this health crisis. And then finally, i will just say we are still in litigation and two areas. Hopefully i can get into more detail about those. One is involved in the sts. Including ballots including up to the election selection that goes smoothly it went went as well as you have to take into consideration the vast those are put into making sure the democracy. Describe what you think is most important Going Forward to again acknowledging, understand the perspective that is lots of room for improvement but some things work. What you think we knew to fortify Going Forward . To avoid the negative aspects . s neck there are two important bills before congress right now but do an enormous amount of work to alleviate some of these pressures on voters in our election system. One is hr1, for the people act which bring Voter Administration across the country. It would also allow for named a registration. And it would provide early voting opportunities for two weeks leading up to the election for everyone at a minimum in the country. A minimum of two weeks of early voting. Including weekends and evenings. That alone could take a number of the stresses off of our election system. Open the franchise to voters and provide a more inclusive electorate. I know would be remiss if i did not note many of the deficiencies in discrimination in our election system were exacerbated by the roles of clinical protection Voting Rights acts of the 2013 this is it Shelby County. There was a bill the voters rights advancement act that could be passed that would not only restore some of the protections of section five that were struck down, but actually make preclearance. Which is a method of embedding laws related to voting before they go into practice to make sure they do not put minority voters particular in a worse position. We capacity Voting Rights advancement act in a short many of the obstacles erected in this election would not be passed on Election Officials would be deterred from trying to pursue them. Thanks. We intend this as a followup for much of this conversation. But to any, all of you, given the nearly constant concerns, rhetoric, on widespread voter fraud with this election we now face a situation where fewer americans have faith and accuracy in the election. How do we counteract the damages is untried democracy . And maybe from that legislation there other things you can, should be doing. I seems like for a variety of reasons. And maybe in some parts of the political faction more than others. In terms of competency election. This is a huge problem. There are some things that we can do legally and structurally. A number of them are mentioned and bends oped. A series of things to make voting easier. But also to provide protection against the kind of voter discrimination that has been in the history in this country. Those protections stripped in a decision in Shelby County was predicated by chief Justice Roberts in saying that well we dont see this discrimination anymore because of course the created the barriers against that discrimination. The day after Shelby County was decided in Shelby County there putting back those discriminations. But that is only one part of it. And unless we can move away from a group of pernicious actors who basically say if we lose, it was fraudulent, who are now able to social media and amplify spiritually theories an andfalsehoods. Things have been completely debunked and he knows better. This is not a dumb guy repeating them is going to basically be like its own virus in the political system, creating this level of distrust. All we can just push back against that you hope we can continue to get courageous officials like the georgia secretary of state and others who do push back. But also to make these changes. Just to add as well. I would like to see the election date moved to veterans day. Im dying to protect the right to vote. If we could do that alone having substantial early voting that would help. Were likely to see now the aftermath of the pandemic is significant increase in voting by mail. People of not done it before now see that it is an easy thing to do. I prefer to have people vote in person. There is ace beauty of turning out at the polls. If we are going to have it, lets make sure it works well. That means we have drop boxes everywhere so we do not have to rely on the Postal Service. That we have in every state ample opportunities for voters who not do it exactly right. Maybe dont put the signature in the right place. To cure their ballots after words when they are legitimately voting. And that we have state do it so many do, which is to begin to process votes by mail when they come in and still waiting until election day. Which means we do not get the results for days and weeks and they may be different from what we see on election day, which raises at least for some people the suspicion that something has gone wrong there. We have states that deliberately set the date which you can begin to process on election day so they could get a skewed result made it more legitimate for voters to suit the results are relatively soon after the election. Mckim at this from a different perspective if i could. The real split the came place joe biden wanted donald trump when. They did when down ballot base. Maybe the most sick significant in the state legislature actually do come up with redistricting coming up in few years the republicans are going to continue in all likelihood to control as many state legislative chambers as they do now. It is important to i think or recognize how divided the country is and work from there. To me it was very alarming that the trump bien rhetoric actually took root in such a large degree of the electric. I dont think theres clearly a large percentage of the population that does. If you want solutions to the problem that people voting without barriers being placed in their way youve got to take both sides into account. I would actually be in favor of setting up some sort of a process. Maybe its federal, maybe its, maybe through the state legislatures to give the people that think there was fraudulent the ability to go out make a case. When there is no evidence the republicans could find for the previous four decades. Donald trump is not presented any in court at all. And you have still got this great turn going on. So to restore faith in the system and take with this argument that her basic principle of election does not work, you need to be able to go the forces who believe there is fraud a platform to do at the kent investigated and either put up or shut up. I think we should probably work toward Something Like that. Its also important to recogniz recognize, think a different way of looking at the election laws of the republican governors and secretaries of state were able to rely on to say we are going to certify these elections because they were valid. There is fraud, there is also sort admin appearance suite of legislative proposals to make sure the appearance of the elections care goes into play. I think voter id laws are part of that for example. I think when doug ducey described in his nine tweets series why he was going to reject President Trumps request and certify the election, he referred to the way they do a hand review of signatures on absentee ballots. Arizona is a state without ballot harvest bird Supreme Court is going to hear about harvesting cases in january. It will probably have some impact on where we go from ther there. The principle of bipartisan poll watchers is really important to be able to validate the results of an election. There were incidents to be able to run really quickly. But it probably is a good idea as a friend of mine suggested to do something of a tradeoff about increasing the period of time in which voters can vote. By mail or in person preelection. But they have the results close on election day. That is the last of our receipt of ballots. Because the uncertainty in the number of states in the final count between extending election day past election day and still giving people ample opportunity to vote. So i think are a number of things that can be done to sort of goes back to an even those polarized view of the whole voting process. Dichotomy. Student with verification at one point. Would you combine the ending of vote count on election day without changing local also those that came in by mail ahead of collection election day could be counted some states and not others . I think thats absolutely right. I think processing absentee ballots wellin advance of election day helps get the results done. So pennsylvania and michigan slowing down the processing of ballots, i think should be changed also. I do think those are going to have to be done statebystate. I think this is not a federal legislation issue in order to get it done. Select now jump in here . Heard i want to say very quickly that to witness the alarmingly desperate attempts on this election elevate the non issue of voter fraud is creating such dangerous conditions in our democracy. Lets leave a significant swath of the population virtually ungovernable. When he think about the unity and cooperation and solidarity that needs us to get to this Urgent Health crisis of the pandemic, to grapple with the inevitable changing in our country. Toward off foreign interference. I cant think of anything more unpatriotic than sewing the socket of deeds the president is doing right now. And not to be too pollyanna ish, i thank you so much of this can be countered with responsible Media Coverage and through civics education. Sadly the American Electric does not understand how elections are run. They do not understand all the processes and steps it takes to cast and count a ballot. And so it makes, its just ripe Fertile Ground to sow seeds of doubt and to make people believe in fraud that just does not exist. I am not in favor of increasing polluting the id laws for ending the counting of ballots on election day when we know there are other various ways in which voters are from actually getting their balance to the election official on election day including slowdowns in the post office but including a lack of access to transportation, other means of casting a ballots. I dont think we should base our election laws on series of voter fraud but which ultimately makes it more difficult for people to vote. What we want to do is make about you see are. We want to make voting accessible. We want to of make sure it is safe and secure. We can do all things without responding and caving to a false narrative of voter fraud. Steve xo let me just add a couple of comments on what jenae said but also. Im the insidious elements of this, the destruction of the election system which i would take even further. I will go back to a restarted with the electoral count act. The electoral count act said when congress stumbles on generally six in the joint session to ratify those states of electors, if any one member of the house jump at any one member of the Senate Challenges a slate of electors the houses go back and convene and vote on the slates. It can come of one of two ways. Either a challenge to the single slate that is put forward by the state that has been certified, or if there is a competing state that comes up. We already know that one representative, brooks of alabama said he is going to contest a number of the slates race on his belief that it was a fraudulent election. And there may very well be a senator. And if they vote, my guess is that 20 or 25 senators, republican senators are going to vote to get some of the slates that have been certified. A much larger number of republicans in the house. And that is going to make the challenge for a President Joe Biden to be able to govern much more difficult. Because those members if they do anything working with him it looks at their working with an illegitimate president. This is a challenge that governance as well as to the fundamentals of the system. Bens comment about having votes received only by election day. We know the post office even if it is working really well, all of us get letters that were sent two weeks before. Because there are glitches in the Postal Service. On the only way i could accept the idea of only votes cast that were received by election day is that if in every place they were huge number of drop boxes. And an easy availability of people to put their ballots somewhere at the does not have to be done by the Postal Service that we know will be picked up by Election Officials for election day. And that the postage be free. And that we have a whole lot of other ways of making sure those ballots come in. But if you have a voter who does everything the right way, cast the ballot a week in advance a week before the election puts it in the mailbox. And it has received the day after the election because the Postal Service mistakes or delays, i dont see how you can basically justify not counting that persons vote. We need a whole series of things i would have to work to make that process one that would be workable for all. The states and a laboratory to number of states required the cut off on election day. Nobody is challenging those results on the basis of that. Think the main point is, you have to acknowledge help polarize the country is. And how big a problem it is that there is this movement to cast doubt on the accuracy of the election. And instead of kind of giving one partys dream of how to fix that you need to come up with some compromises and some realization of the passions on both sides. Scolding a one party at the expense of another is not going to do that. Sick couple questions i want to make sure he get them before we get to audience questions here. I am hoping that any all of you will jump in on these. One broadly goes to what is appropriately federally and what goes to the decentralized election system we have that spread over 9000 plus nationwide. Your views on the extent to which decentralized system, the state and local officials help with the selection, and we have a little bit where changes could be made. Then i also want to talk about the courts. And what is ongoing there. Can i get reaction first on the state and local activity . Im happy to jump in very quickly. I think that in some ways, we were saved by the fact there is not universal federal control on every aspect of the election that could be manipulated by a reckless leader. So there is some protection and ensuring states have independence and oversight over their election processes. We know there are local dynamics, local conditions that need to be addressed by those who are closest to them. Until there is a real betterment to have state and local officials inform the laws and rules governing the officials. Some of this really boils down to basic understanding of geography and barriers and access of transportation. That is on the one hand. On the other hand is our basic principles that can be handled at the federal level. We have seen that occur with Great Success in protecting voters who are most vulnerable throughout the country. Theres an excellent example at even as the federal level you can address state and local conditions but you can tailor laws to address historical conditions, socioeconomic conditions, race discrimination, language barriers at the state and local level through federal legislation. A combination of continues to serve the population well. Thats a number of gaps which identify, my self and my co panelist today in terms of ensuring election is a holiday. Make sure we have automatic voter registration. Making sure theres ample time for early voting et cetera and restoring the right to vote to persons of had their Voting Rights strip because of criminal convictions. That something for the people act would do at the federal level. There many fixes that we need federal legislation four. And again the two bills that are pending before congress now are an excellent step in that direction and consult many of the ills we see in our election process. Well, i think somewhere between tobacco had them. Mikel had norm. I would just add that there were appropriate roles for the states in appropriate roles for the federal government. It seems to be the federal government on the one hand can provide resources at states in Rural California often dont. Thats it we saw with the one federal law that provide a lot of money in the aftermath of the 2000 election. For Voting Machines and to improve the administration of election. The second is to set broad guidelines to protect freedoms for voters and protect against discrimination for federal elections. On just one small point, ben mentioned this in his peace. Move a number of Court Justices who are buying into the theory because the constitution gives the authority for the selection of electors to the state legislatures, there is some question about how you define legislature under this. That the state courts have no role to play here. If we buy into that theory, then the constitution gives the authority to record the federal elections to congress for the Supreme Court should have no role to play in regulating those elections. So we could and nor Shelby County under that kind of construct. I hope that is not where we go. Because in a polarized system especially, with gerrymandered legislatures, we can see distortions of the system that take away Voting Rights and states. And if you do not have courts that are able to put some guidelines around that, and interpret the state laws and put it into the context of freedoms, then we are also headed down a bad path. I think between article one section four of the constitution given the time, place, manner two states to be able to decide this things about their election, and the fact that there are 9000 or 10,000 or 10,000 500 separate jurisdictions who have responsibility for a part of the casting and counting of ballots. Theres a lot of room. One of the reforms that i would really advocate is the consolidation within states of the number of jurisdictions that have responsibilities. This is not in this election. It was not even in 2000. But there is an equal protection issue lurking in the facts that there are so many jurisdictions. They bring to bear different methods of counting ballots. They will take even the same instruction from the state and interpret them differently. And so consolidation, who has got responsibility for elections within state is one of those reforms that i think would be really helpful. If you need an example of that or the laboratories or reform, take a look at georgia which it did make more uniform its voting system. So all of the counties in the states essentially use the same Voting Machines for they were able to get to recounts, to statewide recounts done within three or four week period which, if youve ever done a recount is quite a tribute to them. To have accomplished pretty think there are, without getting into the more polarized reforms there are reform like that that could have some positive effects on many of these issues. Thanks have been. I know have lots of questions and i went to live time for them pretty also want to make sure it on the court issue. But this question out there. And again ask any, all of you for maybe lightning round responses. With the becoming increasingly politicized over the last several years. That has been during this election cycle because democratic presence repeatedly ruling against, the certification of Election Results. Do you think that this kind of widespread rejection of the legal gamut put for blowing encourage public trust both in these Election Results and Going Forward . Heidi think this impacts the perception of the courts role in the rule of law . I have been greatly encouraged by the fact that courts have so resoundingly rejected the frivolous lawsuits from this administration challenging the election. Improving that the courts are still a venue and a forum for impartial arbitration. That said, these lawsuits were so frivolous and baseless that it was relatively easy for the court succumbed to these conclusions and these outcomes. I hesitate to put too much faith in how this may continue to play out. Which we have identified is barely highly politicized highly polarized arena of redistricting and apportionment. In the courts just last week heard arguments about whether this administration can order different sets of census numbers to be used in the apportionment of rational representation. And the numbers in particular exclude persons who do not have authorized status to be in the United States which has no historical precedent in this country. It has significant departure. I think based on your question whether the answer is not as obvious that we will see how much we can rely on courts and how much faith the american electorate can have one or four appellate judges been appointed by President Trump. We saw what Mitch Mcconnell has done to block judicial nominations with the prior administration. What has done to ram them through this administration. We are right to be wary through looking to the right thing connection with the lawsuit through the challenges. It for you speak i work in one audience question . Its more specifically for you to answer. So previous question then layered on that, the litigation weve seen turn into a walkable and anyone can have thoughts. Im just reading the question verbatim. Many of the election cases were amateurs presented. Unconfirmed the courts do here sort of anything that people bring to them. Its not that there is an initial screen by a panel of wise persons on what should really go to court and what shouldnt. I think in all different walks of litigation there is sometimes frivolous suits. Courts really dont know what to do with them. I think the court certainly played an essential positive role in the election cases. I think more broadly its a really tough question to answer. We tend to think the courts are really doing a solid substantive job only agree with the decisions. And think the courts are falling apart when we disagree with the decision. I tend to look at that the courts Art Institution that are going to be there. These cases that came up postelection showed that trump appointed judges actually do have Judicial Independence the Supreme Court showed it had some Judicial Independence when it rejected the trump argument that the manhattan d. A. Did have the right to his financial papers. We have seen a lots of examples of Judicial Independence. Courts will always be there as an Important Institution pretty got to make your best arguments to them. You know they get the final word. Thanks. Its just important to note here that we are very fortunate that this is a 306 electoral vote victory by joe biden predicted at easily been 270 votes. Right at that margin. It could have been 290 votes were pennsylvania wouldve brought it to 271 state selector could have thrown the election into the House Speaker of representatives. If it had been much closer, the pressure on state legislature and maybe even on judges to look at this in a different way would have been greater and different. We are fortunate that state legislatures did not take that bait. But it could have been a much greater challenge to the fundamentals of the system. So we dodged a bullet here. Nor makes a great point. The real stress is not so much the electoral college. But really now margin fortitude tight margin individual states or outcome determinants. Those are those things you can never predict is going to happen. But every once in a while it is going to happen. That is when you need the system surrounding it to be able to handle it. Stomach thanks. Let me raise a question here for Bloomberg News reporter. He asks, it appears that all litigation will be resolved in wisconsin other contested battleground states by tomorrow safe harbor deadline. For that make those states appointment of biden elect doors any less conclusive . The conclusive document is the certificate of ascertainment. And the certification of results that are signed by a different state officials. That is the determinant for purposes of the safe harbor. That may help address the next question is a safe harbor presumption conclusive or rebuttable . Sue beckett is conclusive unless congress decides it is not. And it should be conclusive. Ill go back to what i said earlier. What represented his heart he said he will challenge many of these results if both houses of Congress Read jacked of the plate of electors we move into a completely different territory. It is not going to happen. This is not the first time that we have had questions raised, 2004 democrats raise the question about the ohio slate of electors. It has happened in congress. Its not going to make a difference this time. But that is something to keep in mind that it can be changed by congress. Smacked me take another question. This is directed at you, norm please feel free to no matter what our put in place there will still be those comic norman mentioned them early that would polarized gop voters that still distrust the system . Let me just ask, what can we do Going Forward . Is there anything that we can do to address these concerns . Megan think the good news about gingrich now is he is making a political argument. And he has no authority over any states voting processes. In some it doesnt really matter. Look, i think it is what the trump in strategy it does fall flat this time. That shows there can be stress test on the system any time and you need to guard those provisions. Again, in terms of the big picture, people believing there was fraud. I am giving them a form to prove it. To put up and shut up strategy. If they had a legitimate case of fraud, and this also would have been a very different situation. The other lesson is if you honestly believe that an election is corrupted and not run properly he got to find this basic thing called evidence. Rhetorical statements alone will not change the results of an election. But evidence could. I mentioned in each. But let me also mention that when you have the majority leader of the senates, the republican leader of the house refused to acknowledge that we have a president elect. When you have a cabinet officer like alex azer go on Public Television on sunday, when he says Vice President biden and Chris Wallace and corrects him by saying president elect abided and he refuses to correct it. When you have a director of national intelligence, john ratcliffe, pursuing conspiracy theories on television on sunday, it makes it much harder to convince that broader portion of the electric that this election was fraudulent, something otherwise. We need to have some real gut checks and changes in behavior by opinion leaders who are officials, elected officials and otherwise. Or we are going to careen out of control in a bad way. I could not agree more. This is a moment for leadership. This is a moment to put country over party. This is a moment for true patriotism that require us to be as loyal as possible to the constitution. Loyal to the rule of law. Too not allow this divisiveness to degrade which is such a promising multiracial, multicultural democracy. And its extraordinary disappointing if not alarming that we see continued reinforcement of an election. Its already teetering on the brink of actual violence against Election Officials. Which then undermines the willingness to people to be Public Servants and to be those who we can complement when an election is successful. You will see people shy away from that work if this is what it entails. It requires leadership on all parties. I will say this particular moment the Republican Party to stand up and put an end to it is absolutely corroding our process. Its worth it to be competitive. It is one thing to certainly have your own ideological views and ideals. It is an entirely different thing when that actually threatens the continued safety of our country. Let me just say we have had sadly come upon the end of our time. I could continue with all of you in the audience could as well. But we are at the conclusion here. In wrapping up i just want to point people. We touched on this information but i think theres much more we can do to discuss it. We will ask folks who are interested with more on that topic. We have a particular discussion of what we can do to combat this information, particularly on social media. Those of you who want more on this, please for free to go there. And i want to take this moment to thank each of you, you are all true patriots enter doing incredible work to safeguard our election System Energy marker c. And we thank you for. We thank you for your time here today, we very much appreciate having you. Thank you. Listen to cspan podcast the weekly our guest is don richies Senate Historian emeritus. He joins us to discuss the constitutional steps that need to be finalized before president elect joe biden is sworn in