Roosevelt house presentation. During this particular dramatic period in history, it is especially troubling that we can together at our Historic House on 65th street to process events together in the tradition of Civic Engagement and civil discussion. In fact displayed in the auditorium where we would have done this meeting, the images on the wall about the audiences feature photographs from the very conference at the heart of tonights conversation, arguably the most important, perhaps the most consequential in world history. But of course i am pleased we can continue online with programs that span past and present from discussions and currenincurrent Public Policy to considerations of the history that shows shape the circumstances of the present day. I want to thank you that have responded. As we plan on a Spring Semester of programming online, we would be very grateful to your continued generous support and i would urge you to have a look at the messaging. Returning to tonights program it reaches back to another of our most fraught moments with a direction of the country and the globe being decided not even by the war that wasnt over but by the leaders that gathered to attend a conference 75 years ago in february of 1945 to make a plan for the post world war ii piece. There, the tensions among roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin strained the foundation that really won the war and upon which peace depended and we were visibly weak and spoke for an american interests without quite the energy that had animated the leadership during the war itself so who helped fdr or the other leaders . I could not be more pleased to welcome someone with an entirely new and original take, Kathryn Grayson discussing her new and also happens to be her first book the daughters the churchills, roosevelts a story of love and war. In it she tells for the first time the eyeopening story of the three intelligent and glamorous young women who would accompany their fathers to yalta. The daughter of the u. S. Ambassador to the soviet union, future governor of new york, Sarah Churchill daughter of the british Prime Minister and franklin and eleanors only daughter. Through the eyes of these politically savvy women, they are given fresh inside perspectives of the drama of the conference as well as its reverberations during the final days of world war ii. Catherine is not only a scholar with degrees in harvard and cambridge but also is pursuing her jd at Harvard Law School like roosevelt house herself, the expertise, past and present. Im also delighted to welcome back to roosevelt house albeit virtually, my friend professionally amanda who will format the conversation. A biographer, historian and author whose prizewinning bestsellers include a world on fire and epic history of the two nations divided which i consider the best book and that written about the Abraham Lincoln administrations relationships with europe in power during the civil war. Really a great book. Doctor foreman is also a columnist at the wall street journal and writer and host with agroundbreaking new documey series. Her next book the world made by women is scheduled to be published next year by Penguin Random house. Last time we had the pleasure of welcoming her it was to discuss another important book about a powerful female leader with a reprint of Eleanor Roosevelt its up to the women. Joining that night was jill lepore whod written an introduction and katrina vanden whhousel who along with her father, our beloved board of advisor member with us tonight. So, katrina a special welcome to you both. Others to whom i want to expend special greetings are roosevelt of the members of the roosevelt family, david and will and also kathleens son. We are very happy to have you with us and it is an honor because it helps us make a direct connection even in these remote times to the subject of tonights conversation. We aim always to recreate the robust audience q and a that catalyzes our in person events. Online we do the same and we ask you to use the q and a button on the bottom of your screens to input your questions at any time in the program and at the end they will be directed to the guests in a moderating qanda hosted by our programming curator. And to obtain a copy of the book complete with an autographed roosevelt house book plate, please keep an eye on the chat function for a link to purchase a copy with a bookplate exclusively from the bookstore. We call it the next best thing. I want to add a couple of acknowledgments before we begin. Doctor steven has written extensively about the final year including the state of his house at yalta and hes also contributed many wonderful artworks to the roosevelt house collection so thank you for being here. The great biographer of Eleanor Roosevelt is here and of course eleanor is a woman who wanted to go but didnt. She had many other things to do in her own right. The member of the board of advisors is here and we welcome her and last but not least i am thrilled my friend kate whitney is here. Shes been important to me and to my family for half a century but she is the granddaughter of franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt and it is a pleasure to welcome kate as well so now im pleased to join in welcoming Catherine Grace and amanda. Hello and thank you for that wonderful introduction. It is my pleasure to interview. Welcome, kathryn. And i just want to say i cant remember the last time i had so much pleasure reading a book such as yours. It is an absolute time and im thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about it today. Thank you. That means a great deal coming from you. You went to harvard, then he went to cambridge, then youre back at harvard. Youre born in chicago. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what led you to have this transatlantic education . Ive always loved history since i was a little girl. I always grip liking the sound of music, the white christmas, the great escape it is very fortunate to grow up with a mom who read to us all the time, every night, out on the porch in the summertime. Some of her favorites are british childrens classics. So we read everything. I had a love of British Culture in british history for me at a very young age. I cannot remember time i did not love history. I think i was five years old of maybe some they going to oxford or cambridge entered my mind at. [laughter] so i wasnt surprised i became a history major at harvard and went on to history at cambridge as well it still that 5yearold me in my dream. [laughter] see what you did a masters in counterintelligence of the origins of counterintelligence is that right . Smirk i wrote my dissertation and was look at the origins of modern counterintelligence practices and under the first world war. Sue and this aspect of history has really been a great love for you for many years. Guest it has i love modern european and american history. Its great fun to explore these academically but also be able to bring it to a wider audience in the form of a book. Host what made you think about turning the lens of history the other way. So instead of just looking at for the mail point of view, how did you come across this idea in the papers more importantly of these three women . It was one of those moments when cold coincidence collided in one project. Churchill was accidentally in grad school. It also has an undergraduate look at british prisoners of war and churchill wrote his own escape which marketed into fame and jumpstart his political career at the young age of 24. So after i graduated from cambridge i decided i should do, whether its the smart thing went to work in finance in new york. By sheer coincidence in the lobby of my office was chernobyl bookstore which is his home. And after many breaks to this bookstore which was needed and he very kindly introduced me to the International Churchill society and the churchill family. As around this time they were opening churchills daughters sara for the first time and asked if i be interested in writing an article about them. I said yes. Give me a chance to go back to cambridge. I always wanted to be a writer and finally back there history. I just did not note 2425 years old how i would do that. So i have this chance to write an article and papers. To the course of researching about her life, i was so fascinated by her war experienc experience. I knew a little bit about sara as an actress before this. And coincidentally i hit every summer since i was a little girl my families gone to georgia. There on the wall is a photograph of sara on her wedding day 1949. Shed 11 further second has been. I had these two childhood memories of sara the actress and singer on the wall at the cloister. And the chance to learn about her remarkable experience during world war ii. And especially her work at her fathers aid. I found this completely fascinating. I did not realize i havent studied on numerous occasions in school that sara had been at these conferences. And kathleen and anna had also be at yalta is a value to her father at tehran. See what i see thats fascinating. Youre drawn in by Sara Churchill and then your interest white into all three women. Thats very fascinating is that conferences kind of a snapshot. Because by the time everything has changed, fdr is dead, churchill is about to be pushed out. And so in writing about research youre capturing a photograph, a moment in time. Yes. And a great photograph of the conference of churchill, fdr installing together in the courtyard of the palace which was taken february 8 covid 1945. You can see the grim look on their faces. What it took to get there which will talk about in a minute. And what was a weighing on them. At the conference they can see it finally undersea who will be the first to liberate berlin. But it is far from over. And so they have gathered at yalta to discuss the four main topics. The first is what to do but germany and the post world war should be allowed to remain one nation or watch that doesnt rise up in belligerence again. Bridget had gone to war and sovereignty at the outset, churchill did not want to wake archer walkways in the conference a look at his colleagues in the eye and lended that the polish government had been in exile saying they were not able to succeed but they set out to accomplish at the very beginning. For roosevelt were the most important issues is how to bring the soviet union into the war in the pacific. They have a passive neutrality since the beginning of the war they dont know if it will be a success so theres chance for the japanese home islands which could have the death of 2000 american soldiers who it serving the soviets in exchange to save american lives. And finally theres the founding of the United Nations. Woodrow wilson has failed the league of nations. He does believe its possible to achieve peace in europe for at least 50 years. And he sees United Nations as a way to bring the soviet union into the International Community after the war the common enemy had been defeated. This is for the issues that are weighing on them. You see it in their faces per theres also another photograph of the same scene which is taken from a slightly different perspective. I knew can see the two women off to the side and theres three women in this picture you can see churchill and kathleen, kathleen was 27 and anna was 38. Its remarkable to think these women are there. In the presence of what that is about their relationship with their father was so important of all people they couldve chosen to take with them they chose to bring their daughters as their aides is incredibly important cold war. And sara and her uniform she is a women exhilarate air force. Erin in the middle inner tweed and kathleen in a lovely short coat. The role of the diplomats in the role to be these people who put on a pedestal we think of great history. For them to be just dad to be at the conference and learning about their lives in a remarkable opportunity. Is going to ask you then, what do you mean by doctor diplomats . It is a thin plastic phrase. I really love it. It reminds me of it another phrase often used as a diplomatic. Throughout history daughters, played this role of the diplomatic bride or diplomatic daughter for they are the eyes and ears of a home team as they go off on the Foreign Court or whatever. There negotiations they are messengers their conduits. They play an incredibly Important Role in history. So when you say diplomatic daughters, give us a little sense of what that entails. Guest as these three daughters their quasi official members of the delegation for their not there speaking for the government per se. And they are not in the plenary sessions with that are debating the stall and the issues. But they are able to go would have conversations and deliver messages to people with an official representative of the government not be able to do. Similarly they can collect information from these conversations and bring it back to their father to report on subtle nuances that are extremely important in the world of diplomacy where feelings matter in small gestures are incredibly important. Because they occupied this role theyre able to go places where others cant. And that quasi official status where they speak not for the government but the force of their fathers words behind them is extremely valuable to each of their fathers at this conference. Host put stroll down into each of these women. Lets start with kathleen she was 27 at the time. Who was her father . He is the fourth richest man in the united states. What does that mean . And where did she come from . [laughter] guest kathleen is the younger daughter of william who is the chairman of Union Pacific railroad. Hes one of the founding, also the founder of sun valley the ski resort which is a brainchild to encourage americans use his restaurant voice Railroad Line by giving them at glamorous destination. Puts thanks to have the first chairlift. Remember that next time you go skiing. He was extremely successful man like his father before him. He also had incredible commitment to followup service that something they shared peers older sister was the founder of the junior league. She also went to work in the administration alongside Frances Perkins when the most powerful men. Through her example and inspiration that he was very ahead of his time and wanting to involve his daughter in his professional words the extent they wanted to be. In his daughter kathleen were not especially close when she was a little girl. Her parents divorced when she was ten. It was not until her mother died and she was a teenager they found them ways back together their shared adventure. Kathleen was an incredibly accomplished horse woman. She was a crack shot and a terrific skier, olympic level skier in fact. Its a she and her father really sure the bond of being fun valley. And she spent her holidays they are working alongside. And so when he became the american boy to britain before he nights is entered the war that is a wonderful idea for kathleen to have the expense to go with him. No hearings with Harry Hopkins to have a be so working as a war reporter and let it at middle of the bleats. Thats there he became Close Friends of the churchill family. Was she inexperienced writer . I mean. [inaudible] but shed never really written before. This is a new endeavor for herbert she had done some Pr Communications for sun valle valley. This is a bit of a trial by fire. And she gets a light covering of, before long shes covering things stories about pilots have been shot down or horrifically burned in the rehabilitation printing covering things like press conferences with the exiled european government. Especially the polish government in exile in london. So its there become she comes very skeptical of the soviet union for which shes caring these press conferences. Even earlier than her father is. When he becomes the investor to the soviet union in 1943 she goes with him and learns russian for both of them. Really becomes his assistant ambassador. Goes on to become the woman who has more access to inexperience in his inner circle than any other american women in history. A while. Next lets move on to Sara Churchill. Very interesting figure in your book. Tell us about her. Some people may know about the end of her life, she was a moderately successful actress. Within had some personal problems. Hang on lets not get ahead of ourselves. The earliest part of her life is really exciting and incredible. That is something i am thrilled to be able to share with people and put a perspective on her life she and her father were extremely close. She was the middle child of winston and clement taine. She had a special bond with her father since she was very young where she felt that even though she was very shy and she tried to speak for him many times, she understood the way his brain works. And so they spent long hours together in the garden were he was engaged in some of his favorite activities which was bricklaying that helps him relax i creates so many hours and quite harming together. Sorry was also much like her father wanting to make her own way in the world. For a young woman of her class and generation there were not many careers open to her. So she decided to become an actress. It ends up running with the star of her show which was older than she was an austrian citizen which her father was very concerned about in the 1930s. And ultimately the marriage did not survive. When the war broke out she really she wanted to do her bit for the country as well. So she became an officer in the womens branch where she was involved in aerial reconnaissance, intelligence analysis. And she knew the details of allied operations especially in the mediterranean even better than her father much to his amusement. She was also an incredibly beautiful writer. The churchill family decided early in the war when they traveled abroad they wanted some of the family to go with him that the great gift of language much like he did. The student understanding of her fathers mind is a perfect person to accompany him. At this stage of her marriage at this point on the precipice kiss to yours. Sheets separate with her husband they will divorce after the war they been putting it off to avoid creating a scandal for the Prime Minister. The last things he needs is a distraction as is trying to win the war. So she is separated from her husband she is struck up an attachment was somebody who is at yalta in spirit. Not physically present. He is the American Ambassador to britain. Took kathleen a single and now Anna Roosevelt tells about her. And it is the only mother of the 3 per she is 38 so she is the oldest. She and her father were very close when she was a little girl. That a shared passion for nature and the natural world. She became the coastal custodian they changed all of this theres doctors and nurses in his political colleagues who had to come to him. She was sent away to school. She became an debutante much to her chagrin. You think of people like franklin Eleanor Roosevelt and they would not make or become a debutante but she ends up rebelling makes a hasty marriage and the marriage breaks down quickly. She has two children in this marriage. Then she falls in love with a republican journalist one of fdrs most outspoken critics. They get married have another child moved to seattle. When her husband joined the army in 1943 she went home for christmas. And decided to stay at the white house at that point. In part because she knows something is wrong with her father. He is staring off into space for long period of time. He is not as sharp with details. His mouth is hanging open she things is very odd. Her mother has not noticed or maybe did not want to notice the change in him. So she insists he has a comprehensive medical examination that reveals he has congestive heart failure. And he is dying. And there is no cure. Fdr just not what you know its wrong with him he never asks the doctor. And so it really falls on anna to carry the secret and try to make his life as free a bird as possible for a fourtime president. She becomes the gatekeeper for him in the white house. Deciding who commuted audience with him, sometimes goes far as me taking papers i was in night and distribute to other. When it comes answer yalta he does not know whats wrong with him he suspects anna is protecting him in some way pretty Sister Church of a thing of bringing sara again im thinking bring my daughter anna. To anna finally has a chance to fulfill his lifelong dream of being at her fathers side and being indispensable to him. She is thrilled to join him for what she knows will be one of the most consequential moments of the 20th century. She also has a dark secret in her own marriage. I think just a drill down a little more, what is going on with her marriage to john . Its a very dark secret there with john and her daughter. So her husband a struggle some Mental Health issues at this time that is gone undiagnosed. Sort of things we note much better today. He became even more affected by the experience during the war. And so there are some problems at home that anna is trying to do her best to overlook. Not knowing quite what to do. I do not want to give too much away i want people to read the books to perhaps learn more about this whimper shes keeping many secrets buried secrets for her father, for him from his mother. About his relationship with mercer. Really keeping secrets from herself about her own life and marriage but she carries an enormous burden and of course cannot tell anyone about what is happening. Rights of these three women all with tricky instinct difficult lives arrive and can you now set the scene because russia in many ways has been a type of village that you looks on the outside to go enjoy these great buildings you go up to the second floor and suddenly everything disappears. It is all for show. So what are these palaces like . What is yalta like . How do they make life comfortable for their three charges . In many ways russia has a perception theres no reagent relationship to reality. Yalta itself is almost like a character in the story with the richness of the setting. Just the chaos that is being swept under the rug while they are there. I think its important to understand what it took to get to yalta. Theres a map we can put that up on the screen. Which shows just how far it was. Churchill had to fly to london first worry round of his with fdr has been traveling for weeks by ship through water where they are still citing uboats. They are multi which prompted i said yalta not malta. Then they had 1400 miles over occupied territory where they are flying at low altitudes and unpressurized planes. One of the planes get shot at on the way. And then they land six hours away from the destination. They have to then drive over battle scarred roads, all the way down to the black seacoast. Which is beautiful the surrounding health of those of his friends. So the palaces a beautiful building. But until recently have been the headquarters of the nancy in the campaign which the soviets just push them out, the nasis took with them everything they could carry prethey completely stripped the palace of furniture, art, dishes, even down to the doorknobs. So after three weeks they decide where the conference was to be held in the day they tried to restock it of everything they need. They have the grand hotel at Hotel Metropolitan moscow on trains and carted thousand miles south. And frantically restock at them they had to requisition everyday items like coat hangers and ashtrays of the local villages which had been completely destroyed by the war. In one of the things if you peek behind the curtain it is not what it appears to be on the surface. Other types of bugs of course given that it is the russians for theres a lot of texture in the scenery around the conference itself. So, youve laid out some of the political aspects, what is at stake. I want to delve into some of the personal aspects that are at stake. Because the relationships that you described in your book, it is, everyone is with everyone else. Weve got churchill weve got weve got roosevelt and on. Could you give us a sort of map of the secret and not so secret love affairs are going on at this time . I thought the only person that wasnt having an affair was churchill. [laughter] the most famous one on this group of people is a relationship between Pamela Churchill which is Winston Churchills daughterinlaw shes going to randolph. That a turbulent marriage from the start. And she also sees herself as a great person. Shoots to use this to increase her own power in london. She in herman begin a relationship shortly before kathleen arrives in london in 1941. Kathleen of pain will become best friends. Kathleen realizes whats going on and she agrees to cover up for it. In part to guarantee her place there is things become more dangerous in london during the blitz. They break off the affair when he becomes the investment to the soviet union. The relationship between kathleen and abel a very interesting for the almost like colleagues and Business Partners in a way. So the affair is over for now. But kathleen is still writing to pamela as her friend. And he occasionally writes to her. But other people are often running putting the head of the raf, peter portal whos deeply enamored with pamela writes a 30 page letter to her to show off everything at the conference which is also having a relationship with. Anderson one of the american representative. So everyone is following pamela and we have incredibly rich letters to write as historians. Of course there is in a relationship with the american bass or to the uk which has been left out of the conference in part to his political views which has diverted just to roosevelt at the time when it is advocating for the poles have not been invited to the conference. And so he is also left at home. And then fdr is having his relationship with lucy mercer which began when anna was lagrones ongoing. Not in the traditional sense of an affair. Its an emotional affair. When then he asks his daughter to keep from eleanor. Anna is very torn about this. Because she does not want to betray her mother because she knows how awful it was for elinor when she learned of this. But she also sees that her father is dying. Shes desperate to do give him some measure of peace, relaxation and comfort in these last days of the war in the last days of his life. So she agrees to keep his secret which is a horrible position for any child have to be in. Wasnt there also an affair is Addie Roosevelt had it with kathleen . Kathleen had very brief fling with fdr junior his younger brother praised mick who is married to the time . He was. It was not a long attachment but theres some letters between him on some of his transatlantic trips between washington and london. This is an amazingly rarefied world where everyone seems to know which other. How much do you think that social knowledge of how things to progress in politics but also in danger because people know too much. Its one of those moments where politics is intimately personal. You cannot take them apart. They are bound together produce families are bound together. Its not just the three fathers who brought one of their children, hopkins brought his son who was the official photographer. Theres a soviet child there as well. I did speak english but he did not allow her to interact with foreigners. But ahead of the is part of the secret eavesdropping team there in the quarters of the british and american sprites of his son is listening in on fdrs private quarters. Theyre all these other multigenerational taking place the background as well. But he think it is also, fdr and churchill for example have this extremely close relationship throughout the war special relationship built on their bond. With this point things are breaking down between them. And fdr can see the shifting balance of power is the worst ending. Britain is weaker were it significantly stronger. So when sara arrives with her father at the rendezvous for they see fdr for the first time she senses something has changed about him. Because not as close and warm with her father as he had once been she writes to her mother wondering whether it is his Health Question at she does not know but she is in fact spot on. But also perhaps hes moved to weigh a little from a sprite which he has done. Its very difficult for churchill to accept. He wants to have a private meeting with fdr before them it was stalin. Fdr does not want to do this. So he allows anna to run interference saying we are going to make stalin think were ganging up on him. But in reality does not want to meet with churchill. Also because he wants to build a bond with solid like he did with churchill earlier in the war. He thanks he could get their touchyfeely politics as he calls it makes a a more personal appeal and personal connection to stalin in the postwar international order. Somatic yet of course we all know the multiple gameplaying going on. One of the things i love about your book is the way you detail the intelligence operations and the covid actions and strategies that are happening throughout the entire conference. It is quite chilling. One of my favorite scenes in the book is when the soviets tried to blackmail hammond by implying that they have compromising material on his daughter to it into that a little bit . At the conference he has a meeting with somebody from stalins government. And in moscow theyre having te tea. The man is there to discuss preparations and make sure everything is in order. Then he tries to imply that kathleen has had some sort of inappropriate relationship with some russian man. Which is definitely not true. Herrmann knows its not the case we kind of dismisses the man. Much to stalin in their chagrin. He is a cool customer and not easily end up elated like that. Its kind of funny to see the gamesmanship very overtly by the soviets. But its one of those things it is not changed over time. It requires healthy imagination to anticipate what the russians might do. Because they have to decide what rational people or interactions these countries might be almost to the level of a james bond villain. They go to the link to bug not only the private quarters but also the gardens. They anticipate the westerners will go outside of conversation conversations. They deliberately clear certain pass in the garden to make it easier for fdr to move around in his wheelchair. And they bug those pathways. Stalin also sends doctors to the airfield where the british and Americans First land to observe from a par trent afar because it fdrs health praise hearing rumors fdr is not well. He wants an assessment from these doctors on whether these rumors are true. This links they go are incredible. While at the same time being generous and gracious hosts. They go to Great Lengths to showcase russian and soviet cuisine with these multicourse meals. Puke hearing luxuries no one would expect in a war zone. Kathleen had been throughout the worst as these beautiful exotic flowers given to her. Meanwhile they cannot get glass in the embassy after years of fighting. At one point churchill remarked that caviar be lovely with a twist of lemon and imagine the next day a lemon tree has appeared. She does not who has hurt her, where this lemon tree has come from but nevertheless its there. Its this weird combination of the saddle intrigue and espionage. But sometimes being put to use nefarious sleep. In other times order to be more gracious hosts which is very on. And sometimes amusing moments i did not imagine myself to be chuckling on some of the developed of the conference. Spackle i have to say one of the jewels in the crown of this book is the Dinner Party Scene that you describe, it is the eighth of february. And at that particular dinner where barrier is present. Everyone is present theres lots of drinking lots of toast. Many of them offcolor. If you could just try and give us a flavor of the kind of incredible cocktail of menace and luxury and danger and tension that is all going on at the same time at dinner. Specs of this dinner is taking place about two thirds away from of the conference. Its the russian soviet moment to shine to be the gracious host that they pride themselves on being. And the three daughters there known as the covers are excited to attend. Some of the military leaders were not invited and that was very odd. So they arrived at stalins villa which i think not accidentally was the home of the mastermind behind the murder of rasputin. I think stalin is made very pointed choice with the selection of this particular villa first conference residenc residence. They have this grand banquet. At the banquet was the head coming someone who stoned and kept in the shadows throughout the conference, no one had met him. When he appears at the dinner fdr asked stalin who he is. Which is somewhat alarming the president would not know absolutely everyone who is at a conference for security reasons. At least at that level of governance. And so stalin turns him and says oh that is our himmler with kindness and glee rate which is very uncomfortable to say the least its a horrible comparison to make. Meanwhile these kind of leering at the daughters sara has an audit interaction with him she plays up her actress parts which is very useful for diplomacy. Anna outsmart him by swapping out her vodka for water. The whole thing is very odd. Kathleen is put on the spot to give a toast in russian on behalf of the three women. Just thinking about what it be that age, 27 when i was writing it kathleen was at 27 to be that agent to be asked to get up and give a toast like that in front of stalin and not to mention churchill and fdr. And she does so with great composure. That soft diplomacy that is so important to meeting like this. We went and of course the end to that marvelous toasted churchill gives where he says with the world unite. Its absolutely hilarious. And then he also described, it is so clever it is so apt they save the reputation to carry something off. Within a high point for her you think in her life . Absolutely. The chance to go to yalta and see that person who is in valuable at their fathers side in these great moments is something they each had a lifelong dream. As little girls they want to be that indispensable person in their fathers lives. They know the end of the war has given up opportunities that were not available to them. Youre not just daughters of women into limited opportunity and the window was closing. The nod is a high point in a lifelong dream. They had very fulfilling moments in their life after. To think for kathleens was the culmination of the partnership she has with her father beginning when she went to work as a work correspondent where they really are like colleagues and shes very much like the ambassador. And while he is roosevelts representative, his views had to urge so much hes not really free to express those. Hes more i to eye with churchill at this point to hold the soviets a bit at arms length. By having kathie there is the only daughter who can speak russian, through her hes able to exert his own influence and establish his own voice and power at the conference. In a very subtle and nuanced ways. But that was not lost on the people around them. That is so interesting. Do you have a favorite incident . Gosh, well there are so many moments. There are a few that stand out to me so clearly from the letters and diaries these women wrote. One is were Sara Churchill standing with her father in the military leaders looking out of the black sea where they see some carnage in the water porpoises going after school of fish. Words attacking from above it becomes a metaphor almost for the democracy versus soviet collectivization. Which is really unique. And its the conscience of the conference. In the way she is very astute and just a real knack for political understanding. Another of my favorite moments is when the bathroom or lack thereof throughout the conference there many moments for the lack of bathrooms leads to some light moments and some humor and very tense days including talent dashes out of the Conference Room to find a bathroom, his guards not rise he did that and the guards that they pulled a kidnapping stunt. They were on the fringes it was very entertaining after hours of bludgeoning each other over the future of poland in the Conference Room. s extraordinary writing about of time for these unelected members of political families are not just in the center but played an Important Role. And it has to do with the nature being women that they are able to do this as a virtue of being daughters. They have a Privileged Access not agency or authority to act. Which sort of leads are two different questions. One is, this is kind of an aspect of women and womens history that is kind of unique to women. That they are kind of present but absent. The second thing is though, it is funny, strange to be celebrating these unelected family members as the rules even and democracy, or should there be a place for family members hanging around . To your first point, we were very familiar with women and unique roles in political situations throughout history. While they are not necessarily the people who make the decisions at the table, the decisions that are made there the conversations that take place of the product of many conversations that occurred before that. What came out of one leader is the talk of so many people often including women. Women have had to lead unique rolls in the political process for centuries and ways that are not conventional but that does not mean they are devoid of power. I think that something illustrates a beautifully in your book. So yes, the women did not have a seat at the table. But i think we should perhaps expand our minds a bit to think about the different kind of power women have had throughout history, especially in politics. Such as these three women. But his wife was also very active at this time. Eleanor roosevelt of course. And women have a seat at the table inform policy. They were not without power entirely. They were more creative. I will be at in these unseen roles. I am as an family members certainly a question to this day where families have become part of the political conversation at more than any other time in history perhaps pretty kind of think of it this way. You marry someone you marry their family preaches some extent when you left so many left their family. Weve accepted to some degree there will have some official role in administration. But we really havent defined with the appropriate role is for first children. Its not when weve had to think about for quite some time because the previous administrations had very Young Children in the white house. Adult children being involved in policies, historically there were so acceptance of first children being involved in back to John Quincy Adams with his son being a private secretary of sorts for its more of a logistical role that a political role. Im sure there are certain first children who have had great political and policy expertise. Perhaps there will be in the future you like to have them involved. But thats not universally true. Just being related to the present is not a sufficient credential to being at the table. These three daughters were not in the Conference Room. They did not have the experience to be there. Even though they were very capable and very bright their experience was elsewhere. They also do not have security clearance four. Enough said they were without power but they were not actively taking part in the negotiations themselves. Its very different than ivanka trump worksheet takes meetings about World Leaders but wheres the right line between the daughter of yeltsin versus someone like ivanka trump or Jared Kushner in the role of the actual policymaking process. Fascinating thank you. So we have a few minutes left over to open up the floor to questions. You have raised so many fascinating and interesting points. Im interested to know people are going to be asking. [laughter] smacked this has been fantastic. There are some questions from the audience that i will post to you now. Pamela asked, considering how difficult it was to get see also, why did Churchill Roosevelt agreed to that particular location . Yes. At this point stolen recognizes balance of power has shifted. So his western allies in him more than he needs them. His boots on the ground the red army across europe. They are looking to him for cooperation on things like polish sovereignty. Mike entry in the war in the pacific. So he holds more cards. Hes also afraid to leave the soviet union because of all the Security Apparatus and has a fear of flying. So he tells churchill and roosevelt that his doctors advice against him traveling. Meanwhile fdr is dying. And there is some ironing there. But churchill and fdr both fields so important to have this meeting in person. Fdr try to build on his personal relationship with stalin which she digs he can forge. Churchills in great for meeting in person. Toronto said other possible moments, churchill must be the holy spirit them because he flies around so much. Thats how important it is for each of them they believed to have a meeting and go all the way to this in hospitable location. But also the amount of power that stalin held at this time in the war. Nancy webster asks did sara or anna have any impact in changing the fathers mind about any important issues . So, their role was less about advocating for certain policy decisions in more about being a counselor, a person who could help put what was a very emotional time where there were lots of frustrations, channeled those shop thoughts into productive line of reasoning and put your best foot forward in the Conference Room. But sara, her relationship with her father in this capacity as an aide and advisor with delta, just prior to the 1945 general election that summer she writes to have about the political sentiments in the country. Why she believes people are not responding to him in the way he hoped that they would. If he is the man who was about to win the war. And yet there is this anti churchill sentiment, not because they dont like him personally, more because they sacrificed so much. They just want a little bit of recognition for that sacrifice to make life a little bit easier after the war. And so her Political Savvy and understanding of the feelings of the domestic population are really valuable to him. And she continues after yalta. Richard cohen asks who do you find yourself sympathizing with most . I assume he means of the three young women. [laughter] that phrase is not my favorite because it certainly cannot answer that. Its like asking who is your favorite child. I think i sympathize with each of them in different ways. Being the same age as kathleen was really personally intriguing to think about what it would be like to put myself in their footsteps. Sara, she made my job easier than anyone per she was such a beautiful writer very much the conscience of the conference and away. I i had Great Respect for her observations. And the way she expressed to them. And how that has made us see a much more human side of the developments of the timeframe. And anna, my heart really broke for her more than anyone. She was put in such a difficult position. Mostly thanks to her father who asked her to do something i just dont think is fair of a parent to ask of a child. Even if she did not make the right decision every time, perhaps sometimes in running interference on his behalf perhaps hampered the objective of the alliance. She did it with good intentions. It any criticism should really lie with fdr instead of her. Because he allowed her to be in that position. Their relationship is very complicated. While i have enormous respect for him as a president , there are more interesting and thoughtprovoking questions about his relationship with his family that you see to the eyes of his daughter in a very complicated time where people are going to do things where they might not otherwise be willing to do. Smacked lizzie, thank you for the wonderful talk. And asks does katherine know if the daughters captain touch . After the conference that they maintain their friendship . I would love to say they walked away all the best of friends. Think their relationship really ebbed and flowed among their fathers, their very first and foremost their fathers representatives and their loyalties lie with them. Sara and kathleen are very good friends before yalta. Theyd spent a lot of time together in london. The churchills were celebrating her 24th birthday. The day of pearl harbor. These families had experiences together throughout the war. It does continue on. Years later hes a widower shes a widow so her longtime best friend becomes her stepmother. They remain intertwined for many years. Sara and anna, they did not maintain a regular friendship. But they did experience a very similar moment after the war each of these daughters husbands were deeply affected by the war. And of course we knew more then as we know about Mental Health that might not of been the case for theres a very touching moment after sarahs husband dies and anna has experiences something similar. She writes to sara expressing being in someone in that position with your life is constantly under scrutiny in the public what you are grieving. Theyre not the best of friends but they certainly have a shared experience will thats very meaningful to all them that reappears at certain moments in their life. Chris asks, how did you learn that churchill liked bricklaying . Was it Common Knowledge . [laughter] he love to paint freight wrote a wonderful book called painting as a pastime in his other great live. Many churchill enthusiasts will recognize that with some great pictures of him laying bricks. But sara and his aide another one i can think of with his youngest daughter mary assisting him. He was an avid bricklayer. If something well known by many of the contemporaries. Let see Nancy Webster asks if you are working on a new book . [laughter] yes. The paradox and irony of covid as it has given us perhaps more time that we may have thought we wouldve had. But the frustrating thing for a historians many archives remain closed. And you also have difficulty traveling to them. Ivan idea what i would like to write next but i cannot actually get into the archive. So until im able to do that, i dont tobias myself what i think will be there with the story will be until i actually see the sources. When does writing this book i thought its going to be a biography of sir churchill what i started. I learned more about her war experience and affect the other two daughters have been at yalta pivoted. I want to not close off my mind from Something Like that revealing itself to me when i do get into the archives. So i dont mean to be coy, that is a frustrating moment right now along with so many others. Im gonna follow up on nancys behalf. Would you care to chills the subject . I think i will keep it to myself for now. Okay. And anonymous questioner asks what was the biggest challenge of writing this book . Select one of the great challenges of writing about world war ii about these figures is there such a body of work written about them already. It can feel incredibly overwhelming as you look into this vast expanse of secondary literature and primary literature that exists. Think when Andrew Roberts wrote his biography of churchill last year was the 1000s tenth diary of churchill. That is something of a herculean undertaking. No one could ever read every single book about these figures in a lifetime. For me it was really helpful to focus on this week in particula particular. The lives of these individuals. And i reveal that in the book. Its without focus, that help to streamline the research. And also focusing on primary sources and things that these figures had written contemporaneously for events were so valuable. And so almost all of the research of the book is from primary sources but is very fortunate that money with my projects thesis and dissertation involved overlapping themes. I was familiar with the great jeweled secondary literature when i began this project. But it is certainly overwhelming pretty think its one of the things, this was my first book i did not quite know it to expect as i was doing it. I did not have as much knowledge about how overwhelming it could be until i was in the thick of it. [laughter] we have time for just a couple more thoughts are right with you. Of course. T pierce asked by the end of the culver city anna believe stalin would follow through on his promises concerning poland . There is a lot of doublespeak and Wishful Thinking that emerges out of yalta. Including from churchill and fdr. They go home to be very optimistically about the developments in the agreements. In some of this is signaling confidence that they dont have entirely pretty specially churchill you can see his conversations with sara revealing more of his true states and apprehension than what he is saying publicly especially when he goes through reports to the House Speaker of commons, in the case of anna i think she shared much of her fathers hope that solid would be a man of his word. And that the bond that fdr had formed was stalin would be something that would convince stalin to keep his word. Which is tricky. Where he and chip boland are going to be part of the world war. But right now he is the number two in the u. S. Embassy in moscow. And the ghost of the conference as an interpreter. I think they agree on now will make any difference and he said well at least its the worlds strongest democracy we have an obligation to try. And so you can see the writing on the wall. And i do think that stalin did like roosevelt personally and respected him enormously. Especially given that he was paralyzing at such respect and admiration of the american public. Many people need to realize he was paralyzed. But even if you like him personallys not going to act contrary to the interests of the soviet union. And so i think perhaps anna, she had a rosier view with fdr about the commitment of the soviet union. But she also has the least experience of the foreign dollar of the daughters in Foreign Policy i think the lack of experience shows there with the other two daughters are little marks skeptical about the agreements that have been reached. Susan burkett asks, did kathleen and anna have letters or dyers about yalta . Yes i mention sara when i started the whole project. Kathleen wrote many letters to her sister. And to her former governors during the war as well as Pamela Churchill when she moved to moscow. And im so grateful to her family for allowing me to it see these. She really never spoke about the war in her remarkable time in london and moscow. And like so many members of the greatest generation did not think anything she had done was important anyone else. She went on to review of history she had had. Its only after she died that her family had a huge box of letters from the war that are remarkable. You can see a young woman coming of a chinese tumultuous times. So im very grateful to the family for allowing me to it see those. Anna has many letters she wrote to her husband and to her mother and her children will she is at yalta. These are the fdr library which is a fantastic place if you have the opportunity i highly recommend it as will the churchill archives in cambridge in the uk. Anna did also keep a diary which is a bit of an aberration from what she normally did. Because her she moved in the white house agree with her father she would not keep a diary everything will remain confidential between the page she did not have an interest in writing a tell all after the war. But she did what to record things in greater detail while she was at the conference because she do shoes living through such a significant moment in history. And not keep a diary to write about it later. Really to share with her family and preserve for her own Family History for years to come. Lastly palaces this a make a wonderful historical miniseries are there any plans for that . [laughter] im very fortunate the book has been optioned by producer amy pascal who did little women last year. And so i hope we will see the daughters on the screen big or small in the near future. That is excellent. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much, thank you to everyone who joined. Before we sign up for the evening to either of you have any final words . I just want to say thank you to everyone for joining us this evening. This has been great fun. Hope i can visit you in person someday soon. And thank you for reading the book, having this conversation this evening. I have so much respect its a great personal goal for me to it have a conversation with you this evening. Thank you. through parts of appalachia. Hes interviewed by Washington Examiner columnist. After words is a Weekly Program with relevant guest hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. All after words programs are available as podcasts beta. Im excited to be interviewing kevin. Im thrilled to talk to you about your book. Talk a little about how you came up with the name. It comes from an essay that i wrote about so i spend some time in a place which gets a lot of journalists visiting it because it comes up at the poorest place so
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