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Prizewinning and distinguish Foreign Correspondent and columnist for the Washington Post and friend, jim hoberman. Good to be here. And then to be the luckiest man i can say truthfully the gemini is fascinated i really didnt expect to read every word that was so vast and once i started i couldnt put it down. So in 2005 i know you did seven books. I did character and character assassination. That is it. It is a pleasure to work with the senatornd that they would do more. I find this strange to be talking about him i was really surprised to discover about the mccain family that he had western roots im a carpetbagger in arizona i grew up as a carpetbagger but i didnt realize that about john mccain was a carpetbagger when he ran for office. Talking smalltown mississippi and then to get the reaction. And john mccain seven forebears. And with the own personality so no doubt is derived from the personality of his father and grandfather in the position of mississippi mccain with that enthusiasm and craving for the adventure was the inheritance and spencer who wrote about john mccain said what can they do around an area not yet healed from the civil war . From the Church Nothing seems to challenge them. They thought that was fascinating and also were surprised that john was from mississippi. So thank you for that insight. I will sit back and let you take over. Thank you for doing this. Thank you barbara and also mark for a fascinating book. Coratulations on that. I will start by telling a story the first time i ever met john mccain and how i quickly arned a lot about him. We were both guest on face the nation and john mccain was coming out. I was ing on. He came up to me and said i have been reading e stuff you are writing about bozo clinn and i dont like it and we have the dcussion and i respectfully disagreed and went on with the show. The next day sitting at my desk at the Washington Post john mccain. And he proceeds to apologize and say is on says to me he has a irish temper i said my mothers maiden name is so of them but was impressed with the humility with which he did that and the genuine nature of his apology you learned a lot about his temper as well that you were locked into a terrific argumt is that we both been hheads. One of us should calm down. [laughter] talk about hisemper and how it manifested ielf and how you lid with it oridnt. Like a sqll that comes out of nowhere and burst and then moves on to sunny skies. But it was very rarely directed downward. And he could get heated with histaff had great licse to tell him what they thought to chlenge her disagreement he would argue back. I think he thought he lost control of himself and became discourteousnd that many people wereecipients of phone calls li yours were hastily written note or apology attack on a legend that was exaggerated i think to be honest it wasnt that g of a proem. It would come up quickly and be intimidating. But i think the best line anybody ever wrote about john mccains personality was a wonderful book nightingale song describing mccain as the Naval Academy when he participated i think its verbatim mccainstyle was to charge to the center and throw punches until somebody went down. That really was an a description of them. And his character shows more and tthe up playing in the family. John mccain never csidered himself a seven or. He was brought up in t military so talk about his parents and that influee on him. It wasnt just his father but the first four star admirals. His grandfathers brother was a west point graduate and the Brigadier General in the army there were mccain relatives i the service with professional soldiersnd sailors going back through the revolution. So the father and grandfather preached but he tried very hard to stay loyal. There was see codes that he inherited the lessons his grandfather taut him the literature he wrote and he consumed fiction and nonfiction but always had two or three books goingt the same time. It was the hemingway code wit sacrifice and so was the honor code of those over importa in his life. And the Naval Academy where he was rebellious witmore discipline graduated from the bottom of his class but he said he never violated the honor code. And the idea with the cause bigger than ourselves why he wore his emotions on his sleeve he was devoted to his causes no matter how successful he was he would fit the causes and get quite emotional from time to time. I think all those things contributed to that. Talk about his father jack mccain with no illusion to his alcoholism. It did affect him youd have a hard time pulling out of them how it affected him. To be very candid and very unguarded but when talking about his father his father was gone all the time in the war and appointments and said the difference between your father and your grandfather is your grandfather love the navy your father lived the navy and he said at christmas my father comes down with a sense then go back upstairs on his uniform and walked to the office. Thats all he said just the observation. When i would ask he said his father had a binge drinking problem that word heroically struggle with it for his whole life and beyond his knees praying everyday for strength to overcome his habit. When you say he was drunk how does that affect your view of him . He said i didnt recognize him. Why . Because he was a completely different person and i did one didnt recognize him and thats all i can proud of them. Host talk about his mother o unfortunately passed away last week at the age of 108. And never met anybody like are one of the most memorable people youd ever encounter. She had a good one. 108 was plenty. Bald and adventurous resilient. And a beautiful woman. With the identical twin sister and then travel constantly together and in the nineties and then drive to turkey the rental Car Companies they were too old and they were in their nineties so they brought a mercedes. But john god the call from arizona highway patrol. And mustve just been pulled over. Doing 112 on the interstate. But mournfully for the purposes of my book his curiosity and resilience because his mother raised him and most transparently his mother son. He loved her very much. Warms your heart to think they are reunited right now. Talk about how johns mother and father presented him with the option of going to the Naval Academy. They never ordered him to go they just talked on the assumption he was going. Nobody ever asked me if i wanted to go. He would talk about being a little kid he would hide under the table his grandfather unfortunately died the day after he came home from the war. They would talk about their war experiences he would hide under the table and listen. But the parents would introduce him this is john he is going to the Naval Academy. He resented it. He said the place i knew i belonged but i dreaded. He didnt like not hing a say in the matter. And this gavhim the opportunity to be a rebel agait the academy bute didnt. And with the Naval Academy and he got in trouble and went over the wall and went Downtown Washington but he had the good fortune to be meant word andorked off the demerits as an english master a guy o was take command in world war ii. D john revered him. Bute modelsis code and in the Naval Academy as a leader in his class not becausef academics or class standing and those that were constantly in trouble and then to be booted out of the place. And then he got in a lot of trouble and sa i have marched enough on the weekend hyen march enough to go to baltimore and back 17 tis. That was his way to assert himself. And the indivualism and that result in that need to aert his indepdence a while he always remained a maverick always about his own interest. I will foow the chnology that you follow in your book away from johns military career to talk about the political career. His decision to run for congress in 1981 what led him to go into politics . I was the navys liaison to the United States senate. He worked in the senate and effectively from the Armed Services committee and as part of his duties to escort those members with overseas trips and became a protege of john tower and Scoop Jackson and goldwater. And became personal friends with the younger guys theyre all old now but they were young in the seventies young senator biden and he traveled with them and he told me he word watch in amazement and words the Scoop Jackson and put something on the piece of scrap paper that would become and amendment to the hundreds of millions of dollars sent from one account to another just like that. And it dawned on me most of these guys had more power than an admiral would have what you thank you thought he could realistically aspire to. So she moved there with an entry into politics in mind. Why did he choose that particular structure . So that incredible story of john mccain getting shotown the course was in tortured. He refused to accept the early lease. Why did you shift in the politicsefore that . Because i thought iwould show how it affected him as a potician as we got into the political story. And he had some early on. And with that experience made him the crucible at the time offered amnesty that taught him to trust is own judgment d sense of honor. It humbled h. It made him realize he wasn Strong Enough to get through all of t challenges. Also to trust his own judgment with a refined a sense of honor that was provoked with those Early Experiences with the nomination. So i wanteto go back and how at affected it. Elected 1986 and you are the staff in 1989 and rent one with him for two runs in the presidency in 2,002,008 as the Republican Party nominee. You make a point in all of his electoral campaigns particularly in the president ial ones, running on the ethos rather than the governing philosophy. Talk about that a little bit. What difference does that make it how successful was that quick. Only centerright, smaller more effective government, strong defense, but with an overview of the politics he will look at you we are here to solve a problem, son. Not to have philosophy im serving my country. He had a very practical humility as a member of congress and thought you should not expect to get 100 percent of your way but you could make modest progress in that was an honorable thing to achieve. He looked at the american experiment is a sacred project that selfgovernment was the only moral government and all human beings are entitled. He thought that was a great precious cause into the hands of the people elected to represent americans in congress and the white house and those doing work overseas. And those that exacerbate the pumpkin impressions and selfinterest and corrupt were complicated and hurt the cause. We are here to serve in this noble project was do it fairly to do the most that we can and lets not put ourselves first all the time. He had the code of conduct and thats how we operated in the political sphere. We came to most clearly in the instances of the 200 campaign, he aually went against racist attacks i thought that was john mccains finest moment. It was impressive. I was fortunate enough to be at that event where he did that and was booed actually some of them most gave him a good round of applause. The campaign also contain two enormous mistakes they heed him make. Yes. [laughter] one wasarah palin the other lled for an economic summit suspending campaigning failing tout forward a program so talk about those two mistakes and how quickly you realized and did it he a lasting effect in your relationshipith each other . Not relative, no. Eaier things in 2007 that strained t relationship but we can talk about that another time he felt responsible for her on the ticket he put her in a position she was not for and she struggled under the strain of it ande felt bad and nevesaid a bad word about her. Would say many times privately and publicly he wished he had done what he wanted to do to make joe became his running matthat was a politically far desire that would have led to a messy convention and a lot of unhappy republicans. He said that was my mistake it is not playing joe lieberm on the ticket. Or then to caucus with the democrats. He was convied to meet with sarah palin and impressed and as a former republican and a youn young, freshfaced taking on the republican establishment and the Oil Companies alaska. It also the argument was made those Hillary Clinton voters angry how the primaes worked out that could be to the mccain ticket with a woman on it. Those the reasons we pictured not because she cod stir it up. Bu she does have very impressive retail skis that i think the prescott after h picture but had forgotten ive ner seen anybody work the line like she s an so charming one on one with votersn her speech at the convention she didnt miss a beat almost reaganesque with e communication skill. And then contradicting his message experienced running against the last experience barack obama. I argued against it. I lost the argument. s both in the first week i thght i was wrong. She is quite talented. Even a seasoned politici cannot be prepared for the strain and stlight of a president ial campaig. It is a daunting experience. Bless him, you know, not entirely his fault that he had terrible numbers and it was easy. The wrong track number i think the famous pling formulation was 88. I dont think even now with covid that its anywhere near that. We just looked at each other like what can we possibly do to salvage thisituation. We were kind of out of ias at this point. Lets figure out how to solve this ando to washington. We knew right away that we had tied ourselves to House Republicans and that was a terrible,errible mistake and they couldnt give a damn and we were suddenly in that juncture. In the sort of notorious meeting at the white house he tried to gehim to say what he needed and everybody said he called th meeting and he turns to him and says i want to hear what john has to say. He wanted t get some kind of idea. That was a mistake w should have seen cing and i wontay that it was panic, but a loss on e 40yard line and suddenly you are very late in the race. You have a tendency. We knew from that point on that it was very likely could win. How long did it take to recover from that mistake . He is a man with so man many enthusiasm. He loved his work, the senate. And even issues he didnt express particular interest in before. Its been really wonderful to get to know you and youve been good to me. Thank you very much. Id like you to give me a ride home and then i dont ever want to see you guys again. The next morning he responded to get his cappuccino in the morning. One of the things he threw himself into and im glad to see in the security conference where he showed re leadership in strengthening the Transatlantic Alliance and i hapned to be standing right beside him in 20 when Vladimir Putin suddly turned and gave a very aggressive and ver nasty speech from the security conference. What i canear john mccain saying was we have to find ys to work with h. He tried to reach out, and i would love to hear you describe what you think his complishments in the Foreign Policy were. Some of theig moments in reign policy, one of my favorite. Even if we didnt object to the normalization not to be involved in it. To get past he thought i was in our geopolitical interest to make a friend if not an ally. There was some guilt attached [inaudible] he didnt. He was professional he did have a strange affinity. They ordered the propaganda statement he was forced to make and he always remarked about this time on chstmas eve or somethineve orsomething dresseda threepiece suit and talked about he also had an influential fatherike john had and maybe they had somethingn common. But that made an impreson on him d it was a lovely story. There were lonlines of vietnamese on the condolence book including one or more of the jailers. When he was shot down still to this day its two years after he passed away. But another crossover at the same time they argued against thatnd had a lot of arguments an they were his passions in terms of issues thats for sure but you mentioned he started going to munich when he was in the navy and the power chair to both delegations in those days and even thou he could just be as im sure you know he probably called putin a son of a bench but we have to keep him from causing more troublend he could get very woed up. What theyve done just aered him like nothingve ever seen in terms of geopolitics but he would be very popular there. Muchoved by even those that are sometimes the target because they recognized him as an american committed to making the world safer. On domestic policy a lasting image of john mccain on the Affordable Care act to essentially extend the Affordable Care act tell us about that gesture and why he was the last person to ve. Just days earlier he had a malignant tum removed from the frontal lobe of h brain. He flew to whington to participate in the debates on that motion against his Doctors Orders but he wanted to speak to the senate but he knew in his heart he haderminal disease but had the very best care and ife had any hope its because he had access to the best medical care and it would be wrong of him to take a vote on something to repeal and replace obamare. It repealed major portions of it and ive heard nothing. Im about to experience the benefits of the goldplad healthcare insurance. The committeesere the places the most clost relationships were always formed because that is where the senators spend most of their time in the comttee they make wha i call modes progress and more and more of the reform and th filibuster is aggrating more power in the Leaders Office and its becoming a house with longer terms. That was also part of his motivation for going the way he voted. So the subject of the speech that he gav the day he rurned om phoenix to the senate, the vote itself i went homend spend the day with him and i went home and i had been crisscrossing a couplef times because of the surgery and my wife and kids were in maine where we had home that i was at the house in the dc area and i said im going to go home and get some dinner. And thought he was probably going to vote against it, but i didnt know for certain. I had a sip of scotc and fell asleep on the couch and was awakened at like 1 00 in the morning to his then chief of staff ying he voted against it an i missed it but ie watched it and it was played over and over aga and he was viously getting lobbied by both sides intensely. Right beforee had intended to vote for the second time he went out there and he was handed a phone and ump was on the phone and he rebuffed the request and went back in a voted. For those of you that dont know, he couldnt go like this, he couldnt raise his arms because he broke one of his ar into both his legs when he was shot down. So he seems in a political rally the vote goes on for 25 minutes, however long. Theres a 15 or 20 minute clock and everybody comes in at the end and votes at the same time and its cotic, confusion, you cant hear it, the court can never hear what youre saying everody gestures or they go like that. Thats all he was doing. It was just a habit you could hear a pin drop. Mcconnell is standing there staring at them and people handled it like a renaissance pating but it was just happenstance. I want to ask a selfinterested question in discussing among other things his friendship with my friend you use the phrase that moment in vietnam when apple started a mutually Beneficial Association with the press. Talk about his relations with the press, why was it mutually beneficial andhy other times not so . You wi have antagonistic relationships on a regular basis. Its unavoidable. Its the job of the press and it human natur to not really enjoy that experience too often. But he liked reporters and i think at one time he might have actually imagined himlf the reporter before he got into politics. And that the journalistic prose. He was always calli somebodys lead that impressed him and he had other relationshi they spoke at the Memorial Service if i remember correctly and he admired a great many reporters. David silverstein, he admired at book very much and so i know that is probably some polarized day and age andt probably seems le a sin o something but it really is t way human nature operates and the way we are when we are at our best. Whave a question now. Who did you advocate for in the process and who is that addrsed to. Booted you advocate for in the process . There are several people i favored for a while. It came down to the alternative to governor sarah palin and tim pawlenty of minnesota and governor mitt romney. I admired senator romney very much and he would have been a fine choice i just thought we would spend the first 56 days out of the convention litigating the attacks around each other when they were competing during the primaries. And it got a little heated when we debated the choice, i advocated for pawnty. I would like to ask in observation. One of t things that caught me in the book i know ie flown to washington on e same plane with him and senator mccain was larger than life. What i thoht you touched on in the book seval times is thi Inspiring Energy andetabolism and im so enviousf his metabolism. Im only a year younger now than senator mccain when h died and i can hdly imagine how he was able to keep up was that hereditary . He would go down staircases he had this quick step gate you couldnt keep up with and the rest of us would have to keep up with it but he had a marvelous metabolism and a physical will. To show he was still in shape to run for president at the age of 70, 71, whatever he was, 2008, they ran the grand canyon, that is quite the feat for this guy in his 70s. My wife worked him for 12 years as a personal assistant and always tells a funny story that i like to share. So, one day she got him his lunch and invariably it was this, a hot dog, bag of potato chips and candies and coke. When he wasnt having a meal with someone he comes back from phoenix and had noticed a certain tightness and said im going on a diet. He said what do you want for lunch. A bologna sandwich with mayo. My question wasnt about his injuryeing hereditary but a heart conditio clearly was part of his paternal family and i, he obviously didnt suffer from that. s father died at 70 or 71 and looked much older and his grandfather died at 61 of a massive coronary and looked as if he was 90. Hed gone through the strain of the second world war. John wasnt much of a drinker but he quit cold turkey and never relapsed but he did have his moms health until it is often the case until he gets sick. And that came clearly from roberta who i dont think had a cold as far as i could tell. My other question since he had to such a such a tremendouy military experience tradition is the word im looking for, or any of his children involved, this is the subject i know nothing about but it seems the legacy. Hes now a pilot for American Airlines and his son was a Naval Academy pilot and after that flying in afghanistan and was a marine enlisted, corporal in iraq and tells a wonderful story getting stuck in the mud and they said we just won new hampshire. What would you like to ask to wind this up . I just want to commend you for bringing out the importance nest hemingway played in john mccains and you pointed out he thought of Robert Jordan and roosevelt as a kind of role del and to close with an incredibly interesting particularly for me discussn of kilimanjaro, probably my favorite short story of all times as well. And in fact, when i met my wife, i told her that she had to read kilimanjaro and the story of the leopard and her nickname for me has alwayseen leopard. Talk a little bit briefly about the importance i dont know if that is a conventional te. We knew he was losing and there s very little we could do to change that fact. There were more than 2 minutes freeime we made a joke about ordering room service and i made a joke that brought the hemingway short story and he mentioned that is a great sry but kilimanjaro is the best one. He proceeded to read it wi a sort of naonal geographic description and how high it is and what the name for it was. No one knows what the leopa was seeking at that altitude. The way i alwa read the story is its a heartbreaking regret. He was on an african fari ing of gangrene and hing flashbacks and hes delirious ten but often rememberi times he had done something not selfinterested for others. The essence of the mccain code i think if somebody wanted me to explain the code ofonduct was the belief that you wld deem your own flaws and failures to encourage th selfsacrifice and service to others. And i think tha you saw that in the story. Sohen he is dying, before hes dying he is on a plane being rescued lookingt the top of kilimanjaro and itsort of a blaze in the sun and says what was he seeking at that altitude what was the leopa seeking its best selfnd that is the way john viewed it. When he got to the e, a story i read 100 times, heot to the enand was crying. Its very moving as i recall it it moves me again. He w special. He kind of news and then and many other times there would never be anyone quite like him. Thank you for shari the sty and writing this excellent book. Thank you so much for doing this and everyone for watching. It has been a pleasure and would say after writing seven books, it must be strange f you but rewarng to writehe story from your own memory and perspective without. Do y anticipate writing more books whether its john or somebody else . I dont know what more i can say about him. Over about 20 years we were writing books together every two or three years and it became kind of a habit, sort of the inspiration for the book. Thats kind of how i make my living now so i will think of Something Else to write, but i think i have bored people enough with my views on john mccain and we will have to think of the different subject before. But he was lovely to know and it was a great privilege in my life to do so. Hi everyone. Thanks so much for joining us for this joint effort

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