Senior news editor of publishers weekly, editor of pws online coverage of comics and graphic, and im also a cohost on more to come, pws weekly podcast, and aim also placed to welcome you to the 2020 brooklyn book festival online, a little different platform this year but still exciting and still doing what he brooklyn book fair does so well, to bring artists together to talk about their work. Were here today with a great trio of artists and start with dave chisolm, and emei butell and joe sacco. Theres a blinky you, purchase the books so please indulge. I want to tell you but the panel. Its called makers of the road, writing Hidden History and were league to book at three authors skillfully use the graphics medium to investigate the culture of different personalities, creative graphic nonfiction at it best. Lets tart with dave chisolm, chasing the bird, Charlie Parker in california, groundbreaking book that looks into the life and music of really one of the most revered and influencal saxophonists in the history of jazz. Well talk about that and the book and how dave put this together. Next talking with emei burrell, serving the people my mothers story, a fascinating book at the chinese cultural revolution. Through the life of one person, a woman, with very particular demands and really an extraordinary story of personal determination, and then of course joe sacco, acclaimed journalist, his most recent book, paying the land, a look at the native Indigenous People of canada, their history, their struggles and their the complex landscape that now between their history and the demand of both the canadian government and the contemporary world. Thats quick synopsis. Ill go down the line and let you talk a little bit more about your book. So thank you all for being here, and let start off with dave. Tell us first of all, just to make sure people under what were talk us about, can you tell us about charlie park center thats aname people may recognize but identity knock sure people always understand the impact he has had on 20th 20th century american youth. Charlie parker was a saxophonist who was mainly active as an artist in the 40s and 50s and he is an innovator in the jazz medium, he played saxophone like you said, and he is largely credited with being one of the key figures for, like, advancing jazz music past the swing era, into bee bob and transforming jazz from commercial music to more like art music. And like i was well get into it. I have a lot three degrees in jazz music, and when you study jazz music and jazz improvisation i would say 80 of what you study really can be trailed back to Charlie Parkers innovation so hes this incredibly influentialter and remarkable that he died at age 34, pretty young. A fascinating historical figure. A revolutionary musician at a time when it was incredibly difficult for black musicians in particular to be more than entertainment. Right, right, right. That was kind of the unspoken agenda of these socalled bebop musicians. They got fed up with the, like, poor conditions for black musicians who are touring through mrs. And the dangerous conditions, and they these musicians largely congregated in new york city and harlem and the music became more or less like built on virtualossity, built on excellence and also built on being this incredibly difficult point of entry into the music to be like a secret handshake almost. So he legend of bebop, the legend around mitten odd play house in harlem and the legend of musicians like Dizzy Gillespie who figures prominent lip in the book. Well get back to you. So more to come on that. All right, emei, tell us about your book. Really the story of your mother. Yeah, its kind of a retelling and comic format of the story me and my brother grew up with. Thesters she always toll the stories she always told us about her life growing up in china. Because she was 1 when the cultural 17 when the cultural revolution started and we would hear comparisons about what happened before it took place and then all the struggles that her and my grandparents went through during the ten years, and afterwards. So, i felt it was a very, like, captivating story and i wanted to retell it in the graphic level format. Just share the those the twists twists and turns that human life can take when theres chaos around you, and basically you have no say in what is going to be happening with your life. Telephone us obviously im sure people know who mao tsetung but maybe they dont know exactly what the cultural revolution is so maybe you talk about. You give us a broad definition of it in the book so tell us what was the cultural revolution . It was this decadelong movement that basically threw china interest a very long time of turmoil and chaos, start bid chairman mao in 1966, and went on until he died in 1976, and it was like a reeducation of the entire society. It was supposed to breathe new life into communism and it was also a tool for mao tsetung to clear out his opponents within the party and society. So, they wanted to, like, throw although old things, the capitalism and break and burn the old and bringing new, like, communist this affected everybody inside. The most richland laich land owned and the poorest peasant. People were supposed to reoindicate with maoist thought and set the country on on a new path. Your book is called we serve the people. My mothers temperature. This your mothers experience. She was she was part of it. Many who were sent to the countryside. Yeah. So, a part of the communist revolution that affected young people, basically, was called the up to the mountain and down to Countryside Movement which was a nationwide movement where i think a quote from mao tsetung was we want to send urban youth to the countryside to learn from the poorest farmers what china really is. So, i think all of the students that lived in major cities around china were relocated from their homes to various parts across china where they were supposed to live and work and learn from farmers. But the thing is, there is this domestic passport system in china which means that its a really its like spots to rural urban mights. If you leave you move from a bigger city its almost impossible to move back into, like, from the countryside. So these students knew that if they were leaving their homes for the countryside, they would be like almost no chance they would if move back. So this was like a Huge Movement that affected that whole generation if you were part of that and send from your home in beijing to the uber plan takes in the south china where she was stuck for ten years basically. Its really remarkable well return to that because i want to talk more. Your mothers life is remarkable. Her determination, and her ambition is off the hook, off the scale. So we are going to jump to joe. Im sure most people are familiar with your work, palestine, footnoteness gaza and footnotes in gaza and you you have done something similar. Not a war zone, not a war not like the wars perhaps you covered in the past, but in some ways a different kind of war. Can you give us an overview of what youre doing and how it relates to your past work. Okay. Well, thanks for that. Paying the land is a book about a trip i took up the mckenzie riff valley to meet Indigenous People in the Northwest Territory, and it started out as a book about resource extraction and hough it affects Indigenous People. That was any initial idea, but when i get up there i realized there was a bigger theme but colonialism. And the become ends up being about how the canadian government basically had to once they found resources up there, they had to formalize their relationship over the people, basically by treaties in which the Indigenous People supposedly gave up, yielded, their rights to the land, what was on the land, under it, and also by breaking people from the land. Thats another way of controlling them. The main way that was done was through the Residential School system, which took children from their parents and really without telling the parents where they war going, would fly them to different schools around the Northwest Territory and other parts of canada and in the schools they basically regimented the children, beat them if the spoke their languages, just basically tried to christianize them and turned them interest some form of a western person. Obviously when these kid returned to their communities there was a great alienation from their communities, often they couldnt even speak to their grandparents anymore. They couldnt speak the language and cut off from what they knew. So its a story of basically a book about what happened to the people, the aftereffect of colonialism, the coining effects of colonial jim how people are trying to resist that. This is great. Im going to return to you because i want to maybe pull some of the personalities out you talked with and how they illustrate that. Well jump back to dave right now and dave i want you have structured this graphic biography of Charlie Parker around a specific time in his life. A trip to california. And then i do want people to understand a little bit but the context. Bird was a brilliant and transformative force but he was also he had his demons, and you created this real this fascinating structure of associates; dont want to say that word rashaman but its a 360degree look through you talk but it. Hough have you structured the book and what do these Associates Talk about . The book is structured in six vignettes, and then luck an introduction and an outgrowth and each vignette is narrate beside adifferent personners who life intersect itself withCharlie Parkers life when he was in california. This idea to constrain the story those brief period of time was actually part of the when is would approached to do this. Wasnt my idea to do this but im glad this was the case, it was a lot easier to dive deep in a twoyear span as opposed to try to cover his entire life, and so this was intended to explore the fact that, like, with Charlie Parker in history, you get an idea of Charlie Parker the man and of bird legend and theres so many tales that kansas that kind of like so many different accounts so many different stories what he was like, and theres not a ton of interviews that exist where Charlie Parkers interviewed and he was a really brilliant guy and was had a big of humor and big sense of humor and was almost troll thing interviewer. Really clever person and so the way the book is structured with the different vignettes, lets the reader see different sides to Charlie Parker without any coming down as definitive. Because it wouldnt dish congress think it would be possible to make that kind of statement. When i was putting it together, i knew i wanted each vignette to be told with a dust art style to reflect the point of view of the person telling the story. So Dizzy Gillespies vignette is the dynamic art style where this like european artist who is narrating a chapter, his style also bit more indebted to european comic art. It influenced comics whod passed away. Stomach and yeah, this really allowed me to it explore a lot of different points of view of Charlie Parker. And also again explore the faulty memory, sort of like peoples memories combining different events together. And play a little bit more loosely with history. Probably more so than either of the other two on this panel. One thing i like to jump in and talk about. This is not an authorized biography. Charlie parkers estate has given approval. But from what i understood they were very open. Theyre very creative and not always flattering portrait of bird. Bird was brilliant but deeply troubled at the same time. Back we have to talk about this. Dope and alcohol had an awful effect on his life. It was very difficult. And you managed to do it. To document his troubles without exploiting his genius. Did with the story to be graphic and depictions of things but theres no way to tell the story of Charlie Parker without tackling the idea of his addiction, his addictions. And his troubles with addiction. Our culture has American Culture has a frustrating relationship with addiction. And i really wanted to look at it as an exploration the fact that really this obsessed part of the personality such a transcendent beautiful is probably a huge part of that obsession, maybe some less than savory parts. Living in the most vicious american racism you can imagine. Select totally. It is amazing, it is heartbreaking to think about what this guy could have been if he wasnt like in an environment that allowed him to have arrest. Never allowed him to escape was always about escaping, the escaping of the prison of his mind. And how the environment created that in prison in his mind. And then trying to find angles to put that in common words. Im going to jump in here. Going to get back to that. Tell us more about your mother. She was a truck driver, a tractor driver. Tell us more about your mother. I guess after she lands at the rubber plantation. Yes. I think an interesting thing that she processed the train from the hometown there. When she finally arrived, where she would be spending her futur future. The main feeling she had was like this was a mistake. Might one goal in life is to go home. Back to beijing. Drove her Going Forward from there. Theyve got different, the got work. And it was by working on the mountains and the ground and what happened for her, there was a series of events or she had angered some of her superiors who were really petty about things. He said someone else picks up on like she is a very dedicated worker. Going to give them a chance they truck driver. When the first few women who were like driving trucks or tractors south of china in these situations at the time. I guess this is both men and women are obviously this was like almost 50 years ago. In all societies were more conservative. And with gender bias and stuff like that. I thought it was interesting because it was like a very mail dominated work. So other drivers are questioning why would you hire women to do Something Like that. Also from her friends it was really dangerous for a woman should be driving in the mountainside. Wild you want to do Something Like that . What she always told me to it be more dangerous for me than for anyone else. So she always had this sense of just doing things her way. She got some opportunities. I mentioned in the book that led her to transfer into the city and work there. Was something similar. But its going home to beijing was her main goal she said no to most of these opportunities. Because she knew a relocation like that would divert her she would not be able to go home. Was a sense that theres something good happening here. But i know i need to stay on track for my main goal of going home. And that a similar thing that drove her back when the culture revolution ended. And everyone was released home. Then her goal turned to pursuing education. Her education was interrupted when she was in a seventh grade. So she felt this shame of being 27 but having the educational level of like a 14yearold, like in middle schoolers. So again it was to always stay on the path of pursuing this one thing she decided she would get no matter what. So we wanted to hold you up there went to return to the education. Also, remarkable what she published. It allowed . So often. I do it to echo she does seem to have been fortunate to encounter mail supervisors that seem to see past some of the kind of sabotage for one of the better way to describe it, she was often received from other supervisors, could you say little bit about that . At every juncture when the odds are against her she seems to find a mentor. Speeches like this weird stroke of luck, but right . This one supervisor that wasnt easily bribed or easily turned over by all of the rumors. Did not take her part. She would have had an incredibly hard time. And not been able to pursue any of these opportunities. It is really interesting for all of the kind of bad eggs there are, and there are good eggs out there to weigh it out, if you know what i mean. [laughter] but it does show that there is just a deep, i feel from the stories that i read into it is there is deep corruption. In all of the levels where it is like you are supposed to do this. You are supposed to bribe me. I am not going to help you unless you do this favor for me. If you then try to do things like like ibio this thing i ask you for money after because i did you a favor. You say okay you want to go like the correct way . Are about how to drive the tractor. Im getting rid of the two old guys. Im going to return to you. I do and she did talk about education thats extraordinary. And another mentor there really talk to several generations of native leaders. The book opens i think with paul andrew. And then later in the book survey a new generation of young people maybe you could tell us a little bit about some other personalities in the book. We could provide some insight into the life and future. Paul andrew is one of those great people you meet or they sit down in front of you and you realize this is the person around whom you can really structure a large part of the book. He was very generous to me. We set down so we could talk about Residential Schools, which i know is going to be hard for him. And later on i found out he had quite a lot of doubts about even venturing into it with me. What was really great about the conversation, he did not start there. He started growing up what readers will find out its people at age im close to 60 now, readers about my age in the Northwest Territories, over 60 but go on. Im about a week away. You know people my age would have grown up in the bush. We spent part of our childhood up there living for it he could relate what its like to grow up in these communities as they existed at that time. And clearly, from everything he was telling me, you could tell the sense that he felt he had a real purpose within his community. That he understood exactly who he was as a individual. Also the family group, they were basically semi nomadic people, was really strong. Everyone knew their place within the community. It was a very strong way to grow up. And it was all related to the lands and how they felt about the land. And what the land gave to them. So the book starts with him explaining just what life was like. Living seasonally, hunting animals for for, and bringing them into the small towns around every now and then, really they spent most of the time living in the bush. And really hard by my standards, hard conditions. 40 degrees below set a great. Stomach and the migration for you talk abut that quite a bit too. Guess they would go up and down the valley, and fish were running they would go to where the fish were running. They would meet every now and then and hamlet to have weddings. Just to reacquaint themselves with their relatives in different parts of the mountain mountains. And he talks about making a moose skin vote and how in a few days they would pick the trees, get the sap. In skin the hides of the moose and create a vote that they could sail, basically go down the river in. So it was just a beautiful stor story. It sets up the premise of the book, which is basically so what has changed . How has it changed . How did canada manage to break this or attempt to destroy this. And why . So he was a very good person to begin the book with. How he was hammered into being the westerners is a very good critique of the west selleck he had been reading mikey does a really great critique. This has the newer generation of younger people did not grow up on the land. Also has a strong critique. Cant translate to the kids without doing it themselves for a lot of grown up in towns, they do not even know the land for they have to put themselves on the land, learn how to hunt caribou, just learn how to be a person. They are struggling toward that. They do have a good understanding of what has happened to them. Very quickly if you could comment on the other points you made earlier about how treaties were used. About the berger inquiry. The inquiry was something that happened in the 70s there is a natural gas pipeline proposed project. Indigenous people they wanted to assert themselves and burger was a Supreme Court justice from british columbia. Human to the Northwest Territories and basically spent a couple of years finding out what Indigenous People thought about this project. Its through that inquiry that they began to talk a lot about the terms of the treaty. They never thought of the treaties us giving up their lands. They thought of them as a friendship treaties. They become very moment in their history they began when they recognize themselves for who they were not as indians. Were going to come back to you because theres also some heartbreaking times where they are grappling with modern culture. Beyond what youre talking. We are going to come back to that. Were going to jump back to dave now. Dave look may call you a unicoi . In some ways, if there is some sort of jazz they put you together to write this book. You are a cartoonist. You are a trump player. You have another instrumental published by youtube that i read a couple years ago and was impressed with. You are in academic and a phd. Tell me about your background and how you bring these, it seems to back the project you were meant to do. Speech at unocal in, it boils down its a corny answer but just time management. [laughter] like just really having like a lucky life where i have like had the privilege to pursue my obsessions to an extreme degree. And really, just get completely carried away by my obsessions. Whether its like you sick or comics. But for me my backer, like the earliest music i remember hearing my whole life is my dad having pictures of spain on the turntable what i was like three years old. In the my mom claims to this day my first word was spiderman. Which is probably like a total like you know. But she still claims thats the latest. I dont remember. Host works for me. Guest salutes to threads through my life that have been constantly. And so when this opportunity fell into my lap, it was a real serendipitous compliments of my obsession. And i could not have been more thrilled to immerse in this project. It was really, ive never had a project that is come together so quickly and easily as this project did. It was just an absolute joy to make from beginning to end. Host one of the things youve done. I mean i dont a few done original research. But all of these narratives that you incorporate, are sort of legendary. After like you to mention a couple more of them. I knew about the party, the great party in l. A. Rather than the jabber, mention some of the other accounts. You mentioned obviously Dizzy Gillespie opens the book is both a great collaborator close friends. Tell some of the other names of people. The turkish artist in the foothills of l. A. Had a ranch or hued had had these in normas parties with artists. And he invited charlie to complete a jam session. Of course charlie showed up lat late, and possibly inebriated. And he wouldnt play music for it he refused to play until a woman at the party promised to take her clothes off if he played. And so charlie at that point was like oh please let me play, dont leave i will play. This is a legendary party, it is all recorded. You can hear them play the song abrasive you. You can hear people, it is not a moment that is aged wellin the me to it error. But it is kind of remarkable to think this is the late 40s early 50s there were people who were like truly counterculture who were under the radar having parties like this. So he played and then everybody allegedly everybody took a close off. [laughter] he also met Julie Mcdonald. Who was also one of the in the story. Guest Julie Mcdonald was his, west coast girlfriend i guess. He did not take monogamy very seriously. Maybe in a less than ethical wa way. Her account of Charlie Parkers pretty small but its absolutely fascinating. She talks about charlie be interested mysticism, past lives, yoga, its wild the think of some exploring the stuff during that time. It seemed like he opened up to her in a way that was different from anybody else. When i was doing research, i came across this one line in the book that Charlie Parker played at a jam session in l. A. With a young john cole train who was on tour in california unlike the late 40s. This is before cole train was anybody. And to imagine these three like legendary saxophonist, that is the entire book of jazz saxophones and one event. And all i could find was this one line and a book about this event. So i just kind of red is minty interviews as i could and tried to peace this together. I wanted the chapter to be from the point of view from a saxophone player who really idolized Charlie Parker. Culture was more the voices. Switch it yes. William clarkson the famous jazz photographer, he had the strange event where he went to your Charlie Parker play. Then after the gig charlie was really hungry and the restaurants were closed. We took charlie to his parents house in the suburbs about 45 and its away. Charlie stayed up saying the whole and eating all the food in the house. Very charming account. Give you insight into the kind of humility and ability to relate to bibby dont hear very often. Going to interrupt you our time is winding down. Want to get a couple more comments. Tell what Tv University was and how your mother used it to get an engineering degree. So basically the cultural revolution had ended. They had a couple of months like before this put in the rule that if you were age 27 and above you cannot study at the university. So he felt she had wasted all this time. She wanted to study perch you wanted to go to the university. But it was impossible. She cannot go to a normal university. A friend got in touch with her touchup Eu University the government had set up was broadcast to University Courses that you could walk on tv. So if you are working, your company that you worked for had to give you time to attend these classes if you wanted to study. So basically she got motivated by her friends to pursue this and give it a try. But as the case was, for anything you wanted to do basically at work you have to get permission from your superiors. She had to go to to bosses. When asked her to supervises it okay to apply to see if we can make it. Because my education stopped and is 14 i dont if i could be accepted. My like to take the admissions test and see if i can make it. Ill just take whatever courses i get admitted too. As in the sense of the degree was set up. Maybe i will qualify for only math or chemistry or whatever. But in the end shed spent a lot of time just studying by herself at home. And she managed to get into the entire engineering degree. Which then got her into trouble. Her superiors were like what . No you are supposed to study one course are not allowed to do a full degree. Stomach theyre are afraid of losing a good worker. Yeah, yeah. They did not have any work at the time because the hospital she was looking for was under construction. They didnt have a lot of work for her. There were three chauffeurs. She is one of the chauffeurs that work there. She was sitting around. Her colleagues were drinking tea and she said i just want to study can i use this time to do something . Basically they are like no you broke the rules. You broke the rules we set up arbitrarily. So we are going to make sure you cant make any of the classes. Seventyseven males to put up lights for there could be a Hardware Store you could go to a five minute bike right away print they say hey take the sky drive across town. But i usually after that one . Yes im positive you have to go to that specific store. To take this calling should miss when the classes. And say my den now can go back to class . Thats all you didnt bring their see have to drive back. Sorry. Kind of. This went on for a long time. They were trying to make her miss every lesson from the university. On then should call in sick whenever there is an important person she needed to drive. Okay you want to play that game find impromptu more than to send somebody on the bike to get nails. Excusing going to jump in. Im going to add to your story. Was that your mothers mothers who record this stuff . She did everything to get the degree including another mentor. But look were going to have to wind down here. Were going to have to finish, i would love to give you a little bit more i mean what awaits this new generation. I mean the book highlight some of the challenges in the cultur culture. As they encounter this, as they try to balance off their traditions and modern life. What you encountered with this Younger Generation of native people you talk with . Ultimately accepted them. Its hard for me to it forecast what is going to happen. Spirit why did they tell you what you saw there. Guest yes i hear you. I think is uphill. You do see some real determination by some of these young people. You see some people who never lost connection with their elders and can speak the language. But ultimately what you do have its people who have a really good sense of who they are. Or at least try to discover tha that. On so think Going Forward we will see. And ultimately once resources. Tell the Indigenous People balance the claims of the government of their own claims. That story has to be told still. You have all done a wonderful job here of telling stories. And illuminating these hidden histories. Author of chasing the bird, Charlie Parker always serve the people my mothers story great book there is a link somewhere click on it, buy it. Its been a pleasure to talk with all of you. Thank you before being part of the 2020 book festival. Please consider making a donation to the brooklyn book festival that has its 15th year having free literary programs, there you go. Thanks to all of you. This has been terrific. See if that is of the recent brooklyn book festival in new york. Watch for more programs from brooklyn tomorrow start