Welcome to csis online. The way we bring you events is changing, but well still present live analysis and Award WinningDigital Media from our ideas lab. All on your time, live, or on demand. This is csis online. All right, good moing, everybody in washington, good evening everybody in korea. Go day to everybody around the world. Welcome to the 15th edition of the csis capital cable brought to you by the good folks at kia motors. This week on the capital ble, u. S. Foreign policies u. S. Elections, bidenharris transition and for korea and northeast asia. Our guests this week perfectly positioned toddress this critical and evolving set of issues with not just implications in washington, not just implications in seoul, but around the world. And we are lucky to have mr. Denis mcdonough, former white chief of staff, capital rank, weve broken through the capital ranks here. And hes someone who sat the desk for foreign policies, u. S. Communications and he knows a Little Something about northeast asia as well. The pride of stillwater, minnesota, currently a professor at notre dame, and i think he micromappings the st. Johns University Athletic department from afar, i see the football helmet in the background and hes a proud alum. He holds a masters degree from georgetown, and i think that most notably for those who followed entertainment, played by john hamm in the movie the report, not many people can say that. Welcome, mr. Mcdonough to the cable. Excellent. Great to be with youment i am ive been looking forward to th and loong forward to seeing victor and sue. Finally someone using my appropriate title. And lets go to victo as you mentioned, the professor at georgetown, former bush nsc, runs the chair at csis. Welcome back, victor, how did notre dame get to mcdonough, seems like the recruiting is off. We have to figure out how to rectify this. Im going to say here and now, well give Denis A George at georgetown. Emergency faculty meeting after this. Very many back, victor. And welcome doctor, former cia, former and csis and you overlap with denis. And i did not know that. I think weve got a whole other episode on john hamm. Lets get into it and im going to turn to mr. Mcdonough, our very first guest as we always do. Youerved as a key advisor to the Obama Campaign and transition, in addition to the other government positions you held and right now, theres lots of machitions in washington. Were answering questions around the world about whats happening. Can you share your expertise and analysis from the perch that yoused to occy in terms of Foreign Policy, government experience, communications and i mentioned, i suld have mentioned, too, a long time sate and health staffer as well. Can you walk us tough whats happening in washington right now . Yeah, thanks so much. Its good to be with you guys. I hasten to add that most of those things that y generoly cited in my bio i didith you or because of y and its good to be reminded of our long professional careers together and the many kindnees youve shown me along the way and the really valule friendship that weve developed as a result o it. So its really good to see you. The look, theres this period in the United States called transition, its a period from the election in the first week in november until inauguration on january 20th per our constitution, at 12 01. At the point at which the president elect becomes president of the United States. At that moment hes addressed by the chief by the chief justice of the Supreme Court as mr. President and when that happens, the former president goes off into the rest of his life and its all been men so thats why im saying his. And the president elect then becomes the president of the United States. That transition period often times people like sue, like victor, like you and me, work coming in with the new team. We work with the Outgoing Team and we work importantly with the existing professional career professionals in the government to get ready to understand what the best available intelligence, on whats happening in north korea. Whats the status of personnel in agencies, where are there vacancies need to be filled, and planned retirements and looking at questions like the budget. How much money is actually remaining for the rest of the fiscal year to do the things that have to be done, as soon as the president and his team become operative, as i say on january 20th at 12 01. Theres a very particular thing that has to happen for all of that work to start, mark, as you know, which is little known head of a little known agency called the General Services administration, which basically staffs and provides Office Supplies and support to all the other federal services. The head of that agency, by law, makes the determination for purposes of the transition, when the president elect is indeed the president elect. Its called ascertainment. When that ascertainment is recognized, all the things we just talked about can begin. You know, you going in to talk to victor and sue, you know, in the you know, at the white house or in the agency to about getting ready to govern. As you and i did in late 2008 and early 2009. But if ascertainment is not recognized, then that whole process is on het, nothing is happening. And so thats, thats a space we find ourselv in right now, mark, which is basically a moment of suspended animation when president elect biden, vicepresident elect harris and their team can begin t preparations for governing. You know, one very concrete example is something thatou and i know very well, which, you and i were assigned to sit with president elect obama when he took the president ial dai brief every morning starting two mornings after the election. You know, president obama got the brief on that thursday morning, and then too it six days a week. Not on sunday not on holidays, until january 20, 2017. So it took basically for eight years and six weeks. Right now, vicepresident biden or president elect biden is not afforded that courtesy and you know, so one slight editorial comment, im worried about that. Because we have ongoing inlligence issues around the world, but im hoping that him and his team can get to speed on and hopefully that begins soon because ascertainment will be recognized. Sorry for the long answer. I was going to say true to your days as free safety, you beat me to the ball. I was gng to come in and ask you, howerious is this, ill editorialize myself and provide historical reference, the transitionelt short to me, not enough time, a lot of work. And we like the biden team faced some urgent crisis, especiallyhe financial crisis unfolding around us, but there was iraq, afghanistan, terrorists, the whole ht of things. In this case you have pandemic, Economic Issues stimulu and or recovery and the issues you mentioned not getting the ppb andorth korea, whats likely going to happen to break the stalemate he . Yes, a really good question, mark, whats going to happen to break the stalemate. It looks to meike thes, you know, a effoeffort in two ws to try to address this and then ill getnto the seriousness. An effort in two ways to address it. One is, ihink the president elect, vicepresident elect and their teams are doingverything they can underhe circumstances to get ready, so i looks like thre consultingggressively with nongovernmental experts, obviously, the president elect Going Forward with the traditional congratulatory calls with foreign leaders and providing readouts of those calls and handling those calls in an appropriate fashion, that is to say taking the calls from our close allies first, getting in calls with our kind of xet torts and adversaries later. So theyre doing as much of the work as they can absent access to the government offices and information and personnel. The second thing that others around them are doing, you know, mbers of congress on the hill, the press, and others trying to urge the gsa administratorho determines ascertnment to make that determination and so, you could call that pressure, you could call that, youknow, efforts to promote transparency around that process, but thosere the two ways theyre trying to address itnd the question is, how serious is it. Maybe the best way t demonstrate its seriousness, mark, i to go back to the issue that you highlight, which is the finanal crisis in 2008 and 2009. I think for second, the back of thecampaign, remember that, mark, when you and then senat obamaere on the road campaigning and he came off the ad campaigning to go to the whithouse for a meeting on the financial crisis after the fall of Lehman Brothers and that began a process of ls call it a warm handoff from victor and his team at the white house and then the federal agencies t the incong obama, president elect obama team and president elect obama vicepresident elect biden and to crystallize that more clearly, the secretary of the treasury then appointed by president obama was tim geitner and weooked at this guy, he looks like hes 30s and wondered who he was and somedy straightened it out for us later. End up being a critical appointment. He has a relationship with secretary paulson because they worked tether at the treasury and fed and not only a working relationship, t president obama had been in close nsultation with the Bush White House on these questions and then the Treasury Department itself, personnel there welcomed the obama trsition team into the building. So that meant that throughout the month of november december, and january, theres coordination on these Big Questions inhe global, financial system, such that that ndoff from secretary paulson to secretary designate geitner ends up being pretty smooth. And the economy is suffering significantly, but clearly what had been worse if there had not been as efftive a handoff. And thats what we have to ask ourselves, handoff from secretary mnuchin to whoever his bkfill is, does not appear to be as smoh and as kind of transparent as the last one. So that gives me some concern, you know. And i would add, too, that it also facilitated, as i recall, this is you know, 10 plus yea now, the recollections ar fading, but allowed the Obama Transition Team to launch secretary albright and then representative leech to the g20. I think in an observer role to coordinate, to begin facilitating theres only one president at a time. But withhe outgoing Bush Administration on the global reonse. Thats the global picture. Let me bring it me to northeast asia and from different perspective and thats over to sue. Sue, you were, i believe, in the white house as a career official detailed to the fnfc. If im right on that can you talk about, one, what that lookedike from your end, to thoughts about whas happening now, especially from north Korea National security purview. Thats your specialty. I was a cia detainee to nfc, and through the Bush Administration and stayed on through the transition. Everything that just said is true. I was there. I have to say the transition between from president bush to president obama was honestly as good as it could get. Of course, Obama Administration propelled from obama to trump and just talked about that, but everyone, i remember, cooperated with the Incoming Administration as much as we could, tried to make that transition as seamless as possible, which is really the hall mark of american democracy, right . We during the transition period the folks coming in, came into our offices at the executive building at nsc. I remember seeing them also in november, december, and detailed policy memos, on what weve been working on, and of course, the Intelligence Community also prepared massive briefing books on all of these issues for the Incoming Administration. So, you know, its really sad now that were in this situation, you know, as you mentioned transition time is a chaotic period. Its not enough anyway, its a short period even if everything is going smoothly. So its really sad. Also you have to remember, now, you want to talk about north korea, north korea loves what to do is to greet the new administration with series of provocations. This happened with the Incoming Administration with obama, in the first four months. We saw a series of provocations. We saw this in the second term of obama. We saw this when President Trump came into the office. So completely fully prepared. So im just very dismayed that what were going to see is the messier transition in American History given that President Trump is still not conceding and making it difficult and calling this election illetimate. Sue, great as always. Ill book mark the north korea piece. And victor thoughts on these issues here. A couple of thoughts. So i was i left the government before the transition, but my understanding of it was that the same as what sue said. You know, at least at the nsc. Steve hadly was then security advisor and it was important to him that there be a seamless transition and that the Outgoing Team provide as much information as possible to the incoming team and i only know this because as they prepared those things, they reached back to people who had worked on certain issues to offer their insights, you know, for the purpose of providing, you know, a good transition book for transition papers or files for thencoming Obama Administration. And my understanding, and you guys can speak to it better than i, was that was something that was very much appciated by the incoming team. You know, i thinkhat is happening now is just an absolutetravesty. As sue id, there are many verymportant and boiling issues around the world which the president elect a vicepresident elect are not getting the highest quaty information on. I mean, you know, theyre relying on People Like Us o the outside tory to help the and they need that informatio and then i wanto just emphasize one point that mark ma, which is that i have not thought about and that is that for you guys, when you were actually in this transition for november to january, mark, you said that that felt like a very short period of tim and that makes me even more concerned because, you know, as sue said, who knows what the north koans are doing, who knows what the russian and chinese are doing, and it is and we havent talked about the pandemic, i mean, let alone the pandemic. So, from a National Security perspective, it is doing a disservice, not just to the incoming team, but to the nation to be behaving this way, where its the incoming team doesnt have budget, doet have office space, you know, i the buildings as they try to get themselves ready and its just a travesty. And victor, one quick one to denis to resume that threat, because it been fantastic in his insights already, we want more, but one quick one to you. Which i saw thereas a calletween moon jaein to president elect biden. What should seoul be tnking about as this unfos here in waington . So, i think it for seoul, all the allies puts them alln awkward positions because theyre theyre not able to fully interact wh a Transition Team thats fully stood up and will be able to hit the ground running in january. And so, yes, we see, you know, the foreign minister coming over, there are a lot of Ruling Party Members that are comg over, but you know,ithout that ascertament as denis said, it makes it awkward for all u. S. Allies and partner who want to get to work you know, with the n teamnd its doing a disservice not just to u. S. Domestic policy and National Security, it doing is disservice to all of our allie and partners. Thanks, victor. Ay, back to mr. Mcdonough, denis, round two, coming back to the buffet again as is the course of this show. We cant get enough. So, lets go a little deeper on policy. You sat as key Decision Maker in the wes wing for eight years. Can you justun us through two really interesting elements here that people ive heard pele ask about, one, the challenges that the Biden Administration will face, especially Foreign Policy, domeic top of mind and how to prioritize those challenges. And really, the subtext for this show, which happenso be in and ound, you know, covering topics, excus me, in and around northeast asia. Wi there be enough time and attentn and resoues allocated to the north korea issue set . Can you just address that small easy bucket of issues that i put forward to you . Yeah, look, just one thing that before that, pile on both sue and victor said. Presidenobama in his book and commentary in the pt couple of days sinince his book hit th shelvesn tuesday, and as sue also said, Michelle Obama also commented about this in extensive posts that she had in social med the other day. That they were extraordinarily grateful to t existing White House Team and to president bush and mrs. Bush for the many kindnesses that they extended them in the context of the transition in 2008, 2009 and famously now the bush daughters showing the obama daughters around the residence and those of us with kid can kind of associate with that. And i know, mark, for example, youve gone through this with your own family and the many changes that youve gone through as a result of your service to the country. You know, starting your family in seoul and beginning that really important process there and obviously, ensuring even now that your kid are still studying in korean i think is really admirable, but inasmuch as victor from afar, sue, you know, in the white house played a role in that, i just want to call that out and say thanks. Were you about to say something. No i was just going to say thanks for that. The family component is important. And victor at the nfc, he has a reputation for obstruction this is assessment not hard intel. [laughter] , but i think there was some evidence he might have been moved before the transition. [laughte [laughter]. Moderate confidence. Moderate confidence. Thanks, guys, thanks, guys. [laughter] no, absolutely. No, victor, in all seriousness and denis, please. So then on the time, its trite, but this is the most important, kind after critical statement, which is to say the most Precious Resource in a white house is the president s time and its quite clear both as so take for example, how they rolled out ron klain as chief of staff. It highlighted two things, one, rons role as ebola coordinator back in 2014, and his role in 2009, 2010 in overseeing the investments in the stimulus as a result of that Great Recession in 20092010. He carried out those functions exceedingly well, as has been acknowledged as such by republicans and democrats, people inside government and outside government. But the reason they highlighted those two things, those will be the first two major priorities of this white house, which is the pandemic and the economic dislocation thats resulted from it. Theyve also been very clear, as you can see on build back better. Com, the transition website that the other two major early priorities are Climate Change and Racial Justice here in the United States. So theyve listed those four, ennumber rated those four major priorities. Obviously, the first three that we mentioned do have northeast asia implications. And so, i think its important to think about it in that way first. Second, as sue suggests, theres a hardlearned lesson, we do have adversaries and competitors who are going to try to force themselves onto the agenda in washington. So that will require some real discipline from the Bidenharris Administration and will require really tight coordination for our allies of the type that victor just talked about which is why i did think about it. So important that that call with moon jaein happened earlier this week and the readout was made public so people could see the fact of that call. But then the last thing, mark, is this is something that i think you and i kind of took a little scrap for, and thats the diplomatic determine, took a little for when were in the white house is, you know, youre going to see action on these major priorities early in the administration in the Foreign Policy area, handled by the cabinet. And i think youll see that the president really being clear that hes empowering his cabinet and underscoring to his cabinet that he wants to make sure that theyre taking the ethos and the premises he made in the context of the campaign, which is overwhelmingly to reinvest in the alliances that are so important to the u. S. And obviously, none more important than the two critical alliances in northeast asia. With korea and with japan. Hell really be pushing on his cabinet representatives to get out there to make those promises real and so, when you think about the fact, well, is this going to be, you know, on the president s todo list every day, not necessarily. I mean, in all candor, hes going to be dealing with the pandemic and dealing with the economy. But its going to be on his agenda every day inasmuch as hes directing those cabinet members to make real his promises to the alliances, and to the allies on behalf of the alliances, to reinvest and reinvigorate, you know, the priority in those. Thats really helpful and interesting, and just follow up on one piece and perhaps its to suggest, also, be and tell me if im wrong, its also going to be something that its incumbent on the nchlnnsc and i the cabinet, one of your first points is, the most important resource is the president and Everybody Knows it. The leaders know it around the world and allies know it and there is no substitute in some regards, right . And at the same time, youve got an unbelievably huge agenda here that the president elect has made clear he wants to focus on and empower his cabinet. But on the other edge of that, you have to be mindful of it by mistake and correct me if im wrong again, you dont wan to appear distracted. You need the requisite level of engagement and youve got serious Foreign Policy challenges that will as you alluded earlier to force themselves on the agenda early. And how do you balance that from your point as white house chief of staff and National Security advisor. Yeah, i think you put your finger on it, mark. And i think thats where your nsc team becomes so critical and cabinet becomes so critical and thats where, i think, the norms and traditions of things like these congratulatory phone calls are so important because i think it gets really i think its really important that, for example, seoul stands that, of all the things the president elect has to deal with right now, he really wanted to prioritize that, and receiving the congratulations from the president of south korea. Its just, its a its a very important its meant to be a very important signal and i hope its interpreted as that. So, one is theres going to be pieces of the job that the president elect and his team and the president after january 20th, will continue to do those things. Those will be regular interactions, you know, Major International meetings and so forth, one. Two, it requires then people like you, victor, sue, who are the president s representatives in the white house to be engaging, you know, not just through states, but from the white house with, you know, the embassies in washington and with our people on the ground and capital to make sure that they understand that through them and their interaction with the president , the president remains vigilant about these challenges. And you know, so when i say, you know, for example, north korea trying to assert itself onto the agenda of the United States and that requiring discipline on the side of the United States, what i mean there is twofold. One is requires the discipline of great professionals like sue and victor and their kind of successors in the nfc and throughout the u. S. Government, staying on top of whats happening. Coordinating the whole u. S. Government and then communicating clearly with our allies. But it also means not letting the North Koreans dictate the terms of the dialog or the debate or the discussion, so thats going to require discipline, too. For all of that you need a really experienced set of professionals in the nsc like i said like you or like sue or like victor. Denis, excellent stuff. And let me take that you set up victor well. Victor, you did that job under the bush two administration. You had direct engagement with the North Koreans. You represented the president , the white house in a range of meetings all over northeast asia. You coordinated within the government. Can you just talk about what mr. Mcdonough said in terms of how this translates in the current context to seoul, pyong yang, interested parties in the north korean context and rit large the agency. Be april to. I mean, the first thing we have to think about from the perspective of our allies and partners around the world, when we think about process and policy coordination and interagency, from their viewpoint, nothing really has been normal over the past four years. In many ways, its nothing like they have ever seen and the United States, which generally tends to be, you know, fairly transparent, fairly reliable, you know, when a message comes in or a message gets communicated to their government, you know, they understand that thats policy. You know, none of those, none of those touchstones were there. Have been there over the past four years, and so, all of them are looking for some sense of stability. Some sense of predictability, some sense of transparency and i think that this this administration the president elects group. These are all experienced people and theyve all been there before. They know how to do this, theyre just not given the tools right now to be able to exercise that. I mean, one of the first things i think denis point the president is going to rely on his cabinet officials to play an Important Role particularly at the outset. From sort of the worker bee level. Like denis held two of the most difficult jobs in the u. S. Government, chief of staff and deputy National Security advisor. Amazing i dont know how you. Thats how you get the white hair. [laughter] yeah. Did john hamm have gray hair when he played you . Ive got to stop. Victor, back to you, sorry. So i think that that is also very important because, you know, the rest of the u. S. Government in the transition is waiting for the lirn to come in so that they can understand what the process is going to be like, you know, there clearly are established, you know, we used to call them subpccs, pccs Different Levels of meetings across the agency. Eve everyone does it differently. Theyre looking for the professionals to organize policy, how they can be important, what is important, what is important to the Incoming Administration, and they can sort of read about it on build back better or in statements that the president makes. But inside the government worker bee level, they want to know, you know, what is the next operational step that they should be taking as coordinated across the interagency and as directed by the nsc. And so, theres a lot of machinery thats, you know, theres a lot waiting to get started and were not able to do that right now. The other thing i would say from an allys perspective, i think were going to be returning to a much more traditional. Style of diplomacy where americans messages about democracy and Global Leadership is going to return. Were not going to be america isolated anymore and i think almost universally, every universally all of our allies and partners would dearly welcome this. You know, i think there has been so much flux over the past four years that that would be really welcomed. So i think that theres a lot of folks out there both here in the United States in washington d. C. And capitals around the world that are waiting to work with the new administration and that theyll welcome a return to u. S. Diplomacy. Not that it will be the same as in the past, but the main currents of u. S. Din diplomacy as they remember it. Let me go to your point. I was going to ask your question, essentially you answered it in your previous answer. There has been an emphasis in the campaign by the Biden Campaign to be specific, on an emphasis on alliances, democracy, promotion, multilateralism, in a word, or in a sentence, your answer is, the players in northeast asia, especially our allies, are rather i cannot talk this morning, our allies in northeast asia will welcome that and you think more globally theyll embrace that among our likeminded friends, partners and allies . Oh, i think absolutely. And theyre like, theyre like people who have been in a desert for four years that are starved for water. I think they will welcome it dearly. Gotcha. Now, over to sue. Sue, coming back to the bookmark issue of north korea. Youve heard that not allowing pyong yang. You heard a little bit more about how the Biden Administration might run in terms of president ial time, you know, obviously that looms large because we just went through two, two and a half summits between pyong yang and washington that were unprecedented. Can you unpack that thread a little bit . And just talk about implications on north korea and what the North Koreans might be thinking at this moment . Sure, first of all, like glenn close said in fatal attraction in in the late 80s, he sd im not going to be ignored. So north kor is not going to be ignod, right . So we talked extensively how north korea can conduct provocations around the u. S. Election and particularly they love to do this when washington is distracted. So, i think, you know, everything what denis, said, the Biden Administration with the ambitious agenda and will have to empower his cabinet and you know, worker bees, to ensure that north korea doesnt do what we think theyre going to do. And because if North Koreans are going to force their way in, you know, we just talked about how President Trump himself was greeted with a ballistic missile. Just three weeks after the Inauguration Day and again, president obama within four months of the incoming of his administration, within four months, a series of provocations. So, if north korea tests, i think initially theyll start with like a cutting technique of probably a smaller provocation, right, like a Short Range Ballistic Missile and slbm, but major provocation like testing the monster sized missi missile, and they will the Biden Administration will have no choice, but to prioritize north korea because it will be a big deal, rights . Because that advances credibility and reliableability of north korea to strike the United States with a nuclear weapon. And so, in a way, i think it wi will marcus wrote a piece, talking about why it would be such a big deal if he tests 16. Because its to show that they have this multiple reentry capability. So we need to stop that. I think the most important thing would be the people who are being charged with the north korea policy will have to sort of Work Together and coordinate with our allies and you know, with south korea, with japan, but with the administration closely, so we can prevent these kind of things that weve seen, you know, and weve learned a lot the past three decades dealing with north korea. So, you know and you think, it sounds like youre leaning heavily towards a prediction that the North Koreans will do something in the coming weeks, months, to force themselves back on top of the agenda . I think what theyre going to do is watch very closely for any kind of signal, any kind of indication that the Biden Administration is interested in an interim deal back to negotiating. So, this is what i mean. Its not a foregone conclusion because i think there are things that we can do to prevent that from happening, instead of just letting north korea dictate by not paying attention to north korea. Theyre watching closely and this treatment is unusual. We have a transition period where President Trump still has not conceded and we talked about the economic difficulties that north korea is facing. And there are exchanging letters and relationship is warming up. There are factors that north korea is considering. I dont think theyre immediately turning to major provocation, again, starting with smaller, smaller provocation. We and i think the United States, the United States government, the Biden Administration can take steps to send the right kind of message and signal to north korea in coordination with south korea. Its not a foregone conclusion, we know its where they will be headed if we let six months go by without any sending any signal to north korea. Got you, great stuff. And after the show were going to take bets so im going to come back to you. Im joking. And really good stuff on your point, i just thought it was excellent in terms of we know where this will go if, unless theres robust policy development and intervention for lack of a better term. Thats interesting stuff. Denis, last word to you. Were almost out of time here, i want to pick up on one element that sue said in terms of the china factor. Not in terms of north korea per se, but look, this is the largest issue at least in asia and you could argue globally in terms of the president s Foreign Policys docket. The thoughts on where this might go and i just would underscore that obviously seoul watches it closely, tokyo as well in terms of the policy development and the direction, so, denis the floor is yours and this will be the last question. Look, i think i tell my students all the time if you think about kind of the International System that you and i kind of started our careers in, mark, you know, basically the kind of, you know, unit polarity around the u. S. Which just kind of won the cold war and knocked down kind of the walls of eastern europe. You know, kind of relegated the soviet union to kind of its appropriate place. I think the International System our students, my students now are going to be operating in is this one of dominated boo i competitions between the United States and china. And so thats point one. As youre suggesting, i think it is a dominant question in the International System. Point two is, im im routinely surprised at how fundamentally the concensus among National Security professionals in washington has changed on the right path on china since we left government in 2017. Its quite remarkable to me that, you know, kind of decades of concensus around this question of, broadly speaking engagement, has given way to something much more akin to competition, which brings me to the third and last point, thats also going to be that change concensus will be reflected in the biden team. So, i dont think youll see substantial change off of, you know, current course and speed of seeing china as a competitor first and foremost. I think there are a couple of places where we hopefully can see some collaboration or cooperation including one of the top four that i mentioned, Climate Change. The other is, i do think that kind of rekindling some of the exchange in and around education, i think, will kind of come off the kind of the cold footing its on now. Otherwise competition in and around trade, in and around investment, in and around technology, as well as kind of a perception here in washington of china having kind of broader expansionist or broader kind of expanded concerns in asia is something that i think is gng to be front and center for american policy makers and know it is something that you know our friend and alls in korea and japanre thinking about a lot. Not in exactly the same terms, but i d think that thats something that im eager to see be developed, fleshed out, and examined in the kind of traditional talks among allies that victor talked about, you know, a couple of minutes ago and i think this will be an enda in one of these conversations. Thanks, thats great stuff and if i may, i know i said the last question was the last question, but just one quick followup, i think that would be interested t inform the analyst, experts, government officials, reportersho watch the show. Its not to flesh out some huge framework forhina here in one minutebut you know, youre sitting at the deputys table and what questions are you asng . What are some of the issues that you want hashed out by the agencies, not necessaly answered, but we need to think about. I think the biggest one is what is an xiled china mean for u. S. Interests . Think that xi is a new kind of lder with a new kind of ideas for china and i think that we should be very cleareyed about that and i think those are the questions, i think, in the broad sense that iwould behoove american policy makers. Thats. I think that iwould behoove amican policy makers to discuss this from, right, which is to say, lets make sure that we understand what it is tha china is about. I think this is also why, you know, as all three of you guys understand, this is why president obama spent the kind of time he spent pressin these questions with president xi. And im not sure that weve quite answered that questn yet, but i think itsritical to stand that and ancillary questions like what are t limits on him . What are the institutions in china thatre going to limit him and how do our most importantly of the ancillary questions is how do our allies see that. So thats where id start, mark. Excellent. All right, excellent stuff. Denis, we cant thank you enou for one, the answe you ve us, the insight. Appreciate you having you on the show and we tried to class the place up, we get a cabinet rank ranked official and sue has the best background, she brings that great library, its fantastic. An so, as well as her fantastic expertise so weve got we had a great session and denis, cant thank you enough. Id be remiss if i didnt say who is gng to win the korean world series is the bears, my Favorite Team and im going to put words in your mouth and lumpou in as a fan and 11 in the korean series right now with a dramatic 9th inning cliff hanger yesterday game. So, with that, were going to call the gavel. Denis. Thanks again. Thanks, guys. Were honored. Victor, fantastic stuff. We always appreciateit. And sue, great, great, great insights. We really do appreciate it a were goingo be watching closely the north korea piece that you underscored in your last question, thats of interest to everybodyho watches this ow. So with that, thank to kia for their sponsorship and suppt. It is invaluable in this show and its been an insightful, fastpac with a little bit of fun away excuse me, a little fun along the way episode. See you in a two weeks and [speaking language]. Thanks, denis. That was great. The House Financial Services hearing holds a hearing to consider Pandemic Risk Insurance Program and how it might improve coverage during the coronavirus pandemic. Well have that live for you starting at 10 eastern. And coming up this afternoon, well bring you a conversation with dr. Redfield, director for Disease Control and prevention on the current state of the pandemic from u. S. Chamber of commerce, live coverage starts at 5 p. M. Eastern here on spann 2 and both events are live onhine at cspan. Org or listen live with the free cspan radio app. Up next, the New York Times talks with massachusetts senator Elizabeth Warren for the priorities for president elect Biden Administration. Were joined for our final session of the day with senator Elizabeth Warren and we couldnt beore thrilled to have her try to unpack what has gone on over these past couple of weeks and frankly, where this country is headed over the next several years. Senator, thank you so very, very much for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. Were going to ve fun