Transcripts For CSPAN2 David Nasaw The Last Million 20240711

1985. During and after world war ii. It describes the movements of millions of people among shifting of orders and general chaos the chaos of that war and its aftermath. It describes a light at the street level and politics in the highest region of government. Millions of people were displaced by world war ii. Most known were those sent to concentration camps they were already migrant laborers, sports laborers, collaborators, political prisoners, and pows. When the war ended many if not most displaced persons return home. Yet as the title suggests, a million did not. This book tells the story of their search for a new home. So david, thanks for joining us. And to kick it off i have a simple question. Which is how did you come to the story . How did you see the last and million as a singular story to be told . Speech i think it had a lot to do with tony juts externally book postwar. And i have learned not to take the common sense view of historical events as necessarily truthful. Sometimes only partially truthful. When i read tonys book it became clear to me, much clearer than before but dont always end with peace treaties, hostilities or even soldiers going home. This suffering for civilians were displaced by war and tenuous unabated. In the case of the last million for three to five years they remained in germany, in camps, many behind barbed wire three to five years let me emphasize after b e, dave. Lets talk about the million who remain. You talk about the one alien into germany. Can you give us a little bit of information about who these people were . And who went willingly and who didnt . Guest there are three different streams into germany during the war. The largest was most were from poland and the ukraine. These were in large part adolescent met young men and women who were grabbed from their homes, forced onto trucks and trains into germany. Hitler and the third reich leadership knew from the very beginning the only possible way to send millions of soldiers to the Eastern Front was to replace them with millions more, forced laborers from the east. That was the first group. They began arriving in 1940 covid 1941 and continued to arrive until the end of the war. The second stream that made up the last million, it came 1944 covid 1945 from lithuania, and parts of the ukraine. And these were men, women, and their children. The men and women who had in one way or another collaborated with, not the authorities. Sometimes that collaboration simply met working in a post office that was overseen by not see official. In other cases it meant rounding up jews. Some cases it meant joining the ss division. When it became clear that the red army was on its march and would soon arise in the baltic state and in the ukraine, thousands upon thousands of citizens who had collaborated in some way had citizens who could not abide the thought of living under soviet domination. Made their way into germany. The third group were the jewish survivors. As the war came to an end, hitler and the german officials realized that they didnt want the death camps to be discovered by the russians in the world, number one. Number two, they needed more labor at home than they were getting from the forced laborers in the slave laborers. The decision was made to relocate those who had survived the death camps and the labor camps in poland to relocate them and death march into germany where they would be not gassed but worked to death. Most of them in underground mines, mills, armored factories. These were the three groups that make up the last million. Their journey into germany were different. So to would be there exit. Host give us a feel for what is like in these camps. What was that like and what sort of futures or choices are these people looking at . Guest the displaced persons found when they left their workplaces or their concentration camps or their pow camps, they were rounded up by the alleys, put on trucks, and gotten out of the way, ship to centers and then sorted out by nationality. Input into camps a hind barbed wire often. Camps that were run by United Nations relief and rehabilitation administration. But supplied by the armies, the armies supplied them with medical supplies, shelter. They built facilities and then they took care of them. What happened was in germany, in the years following the day, and these camps there were little ukraines little lafayette is, little jewish settlements. In the beginning the allies decided that they were going to separate out the last million by nationality. They did not recognize her such a thing as a jew. With the waning and jews were sequestered with lithuanians. Polish jews are with nonjewish poles. In many instances the jurors survivors found themselves in the same camps as those whod been there guards in their concentration in labor camps. That ended in july and august. The jews were put into their own camps. The sense in all of these camps it was transitional. They would soon be allowed to go home. The list tony and believed world war iii was coming rapidly. And the americans and the british were going to liberate ukraine, lafayette, estonia, and the displaced persons could go home again. Same with the polls. The jews knew they could never go home again. That they had no place in europe some tried in the beginning to convince themselves and others that they could return to poland and rebuild their jewish community. To the jews the only place on earth they soon recognize where they would be welcome was palestine. The british did everything they possibly could under the mandate to keep the jews out. See what i want up so there i understand theres those that couldnt go home. But at one point the decision is made. Forced repatriation. That individuals would have a choice whether they be forced home or not. Could you talk to so little bit about that . Speech at one of things i realize when i did my research is the cold war begins almost immediately. The ramp from cold war to world war is a steep one. In the very beginning the soviets and their allies in Eastern Europe and the soviet dominated land in Eastern Europe they demanded every displaced person except for the jews on those who have been displaced by franco years before, every displaced person should go home. What they wanted to or not, they had to go home. They said no, the americans and the british said no. People have the right to choose their own citizenship on whether they wanted to go home or not. The soviets were convinced. There was a paranoia that had some basis in the reality. The allies tried to overthrow the bolshevik regime. Im stuck with some of his compatriots believe that was a real possibility after world war ii with the allies were doing with the british and the americans were doing was creating an antisoviet anticommunist anticommunist dissidents that would be available to spread antisoviet propaganda and or begin world war iii. Speak to you talk a little bit in passing about the establishment of the International Institutions to deal with these problems. So first we have the rehabilitation Relief Authority some have the ir Oh International refugee organization. There is an amazing passage in your book for those who will look at it its on page 258. Im not going to read it begins in chapter 17 where they talk a little bit about their organization they hint at a mission of being humane institutions met to provide literally relief for this immediate human suffering. And yet they turned to something else, right . They turn into a utilitarian Employment Agency if you will. Can you talk a little bit about those institutions, where there stood up and where they eventually go . Guest Franklin Roosevelt is in this book, and in others something of a hero. He understands it in 1943 there will be in a normas refugee problem. Not only in europe and asia as well when the war is over. The only way to solve it refugee problem is through International Cooperation. Again this is a 1943. The United Nations rehabilitation association. He gets the nations of the world including the soviet unions to join. The understanding is that it will be an agency that repatriate. That takes care of the immediate needs of the refugees. And then provides passage home for them. So to the last million that does not happen. Although the soviets demand they be sent home ready to survive on their own in germany, the americans and the british continue to support these people in camps. For a year, year end a half until becomes clear that they are not going home. The americans and the british spearhead the establishment of the new organization. A new organization without the soviets. And its task is not to repatriate but to resettle the last million. Im beginning in late 1946 covid 1947 there was extraordinary bizarre meat market set up as one of the employees call it, a meat market set up in the displaced persons camps. In all the members of the International Refugee organization dozens of latin american nations canada, australia, south africa, they send delegations, recruiters into the camps to find workers to take jobs that they cant find anybody else to take. It begins with the british. They had a severe labor shortag shortage. And they cant get anybody to work in the tuberculosis or in the hospitals. So what do they do . They go into the camps and they recruit thousands of women in the beginning. And then they decide this has worked so well we need help in the mines. We are going to bring in lafayette and men. When the offense ran out they go to lithuanians, and polls. French need miners, that canadians made Railroad Workers and people who work in forestry. And so the International Refugee organization becomes a bigger recruitment organization. It tries to look after the welfare of those that are sent abroad. But the shots are being called by the government doing the recruiting not the International Organization. There is a hierarchy in terms of desirability and the resettlement process. And some of that based on race and on perception. Or maybe its more just utilitarian function or something. Its a combination is a combination. The lafayettes are always the first choice. The australian Prime Minister makes it clear too the recruiting team get the lafayette. Why . Because they are whites, they are protestant, they are reliably anticommunist. I may had only arrived unlike the polls or the jews, they had only arrived in germany at the end of the war. And they were relatively healthy. They had not suffered the ravages of the war that the jewish survivors and laborers had suffered. It was felt they were hard workers. No country on earth wanted the jews. And they did not want the jews for a variety of reasons. They werent reasons they are unwilling to do hard manual labor and worse yet the sympathizers are operatives. From 1947 to 1948 as the lockea lockeans were resettled outside of the camps the only way for the jews to get out of those camps was through illegal immigration, to palestine. The british tried to stop the shifts left from italian ports found for israel. But they couldnt do it. Unser 20, 30,000 displaced jews made their way to israel. Once they arrived the british grabs them put some on a second series of ships and put them behind barbed wire and displaced persons camps. But for the jews getting out of germany, even to go to another set of displaced persons camps was far preferable then remaining in the land of their murderers. Host there so many questions about the jewish displaced persons. Want to ask a little bit about truman as it relates to this story. So the way i am reading it in the narrative is he is willing to confront the british to say you need to open up palestine. Its a painful process but he eventually gets their targets in that direction. Hes not willing to confront the u. S. Congress. Is that fair . Truman believes in the very beginning with this naive optimism, the state Department Says dont go there. But truman says im going there. And he confronts churchill. And immediately says youve got to open up palestine for the jewish displaced persons. Any hints you want the loans you need to rebuild you need to help me out here. I got lots of Jewish Voters and i need their support. Its the right thing to do. And then theres the further argument that is just tragic. He says to the british, you dont have to worry the way you did before the war. He said 6 million jews were killed. They are dead. So the European Jews are not going to overwhelm palestine. We are not talking about millions here talk but a couple hundred thousand. The british will not budge. He says to truman look you care this much about the European Jews, take a look at the United States. That truman knows. Hes much smarter about domestic politics in british politics or international politics. Truman knows he cant do that. That is not possible the hostility that the European Jews miss understanding of what has happened to them is such that congress is never going to a allow him to leave the country. Just on truman to a question i had was a theme in the book they run together, this goes back to the camps themselves. And word gets back to truman that the situation is really dire. These camps, people are suffering. And he them to clean it up. Eisenhower goes back and goes to the camp in particular the jewish camps, right and makes it a point that these are under United States authority, were going to clean it up. Did i read that right . Was that an active humanity . Or was i romanticizing truman and eisenhower a little bit for more recent events with the treatment of displaced people under United States authority. Guest truman and eisenhower came out as the heroes in this book. Flawed heroes. But here is nonetheless. Truman recognizes from the very beginning the plight of the displaced person, the jewish displaced person. And there are those, his advisor said he read the bible from early on and he knows, but the pain. In the beginning of got to realize what a mess europe was. Nobody know how many jews had survived. We knew that millions had been killed. Knowing what the condition was or how many made it out of the camps. There was a sense, the state department had the sense and the british had the sense the jews had suffered but so had everybody else in this war. We cant single out the jews. The Jewish Organization in the United States and britain said the jews have suffered more than any other group. And they need special treatment. The american state department, the United Nations said no. The british that absolutely not. The jews will be treated like everyone else. While the jurors were treated like everyone else. And the suffering was intense. Final in july 2 month after the war was over, in july truman sends a Factfinding Mission led by dean harrison from pennsylvania. He said to harrison who is not a zionist was not a jew says to visit the camps. In harrison comes back with the report. And he says, we are treating the jews just as badly as the germans did. Except we are not exterminating them. Truman reads this report and writes his letter immediately to eisenhower and says to eisenhower, youve got to take care of this. This is inhumane, this is unamerican. And eisenhower goes to work. Thats great. You mentioned before i want to move to the cold war aspect of this. Could you say a little bit more about the soviet interest in this whole situation. How does that look from moscow as theyre looking at this problem. How does this get into the beginning stages of the cold war from the east . The soviet no that large numbers of collaborators in war criminals had escaped from the east or had escaped from the baltic nations and made their way into germany. In the book i tell you many stories of workers and collaborators who throw away their uniforms, all the papers they have come invent new histories for themselves for they find their place into displaced persons camps. In the displaced persons camps and past history theyd been farmers, theyd been factory workers. The soviets and no in the polls no in the yugoslavs no that there are these worker mills there. They want to bring them to justice. Thats number one. Number two they know there is a cauldron of anti communism in these camps. And it is going to affect the future direction of europe and the world. That having these dedicated recalcitrant anticommunist and anti soviets let loose in the world is going to cause them hardship. And the third and maybe the most important is the soviets in the polls and the yugoslavs have an extraordinary task of rebuilding their nations. They need every worker they can. Including, including the members of the last million. To her idol in germany rather than returning to poland to rebuild the devastated country. Host i want to turn out to the United States but takes all adult number exactly what happened. There is a bill passed the United States Congress Passed by truman for resettlement of refugees youre in the United States a couple years later. This is the big question prim sure everyone will feel as their reading the book, why doesnt the United States, we talk but the other countries of swellable to focus on the United States, do more sort of sort out the war criminals . The collaborators . The nazi and others as they begin to issue visas for resettlement in the United States . One of the reasons for this is that memories of the world war are obliterated. Hiller has been defeated the fascist nazis have been defeated and they are not coming back. The danger moving forward is from the cold war and the notion to totalitarianism and that stalin is a modern day hitler and almost immediately with these displaced persons that were not see collaborators fighting against the red army they are anticommunist forget the past and lets move forward. The story they tell that just stays with me for a group of minors in england it doesnt matter that they discover working with them in the mind has ss tattoos leftparenthesis to go on strike and when he gets back to the labor government they say we will keep all of the soldiers out of the mines and put them in jobs where they dont have to take off their sure and nobody will see the tattoo. 1951, the americans change the immigration regulations regarding former members of the ssn is not a pretty picture i know people on the street but congress with this cold war hysteria. So i understand that in the context of the time of the forties into the early fifties but it does seem that at the end of the book there is a wave in the eighties may be as time goes by but 30 years later and then to become more wellknown but there is a wave of these famous cases that pop up during the reagan years was that just a function of time . I am curious how you read that it bubbles up. It bubbles up in the United States. 50 percent of the time he is wrong and accuses people he should not accuse by 50 percent he is right. And there is to do that nobody listens to reporters and journalists some of them jewish and some of them nonjewis nonjewish, look again what is going on in there begins to be leaks from ins they make to reporters and to the congresswoman that there is in the records of immigration and naturalization service, a list not see collaborators. And because of the crusade of the journalist, a couple of other congressman, the question is reopened and the United States and then looking at the 30 years before how do these people get into the United States . And what can we do about it . The canadians and australians and the brits began to start the same process and regrettably its too late. It is too late even those that were brought to justice who were past 30 years the crimes go unpunished spec i want to the audience i have a couple more questions for david but if you the question or comment, submit them and we will try to get it to those toward the end of the hour. I cant resist asking this question, what to avoid simple comparisons but we are living in a world now just last year there were 80 million forced displaced people in the world so i have to ask you having spent all this time on telling the story, what does that leave you with now with Lessons Learned . Or thoughts to the situation we find ourselves today . The tragedy in the present a situation i will start with the most obvious to me, in 1943 roosevelt establishes an International Organization because he understands this requires International Cooperation. Until the present administration the United States believed in International Cooperation with the refugees now having said that the obligation of the United Nations and the participating nations has been not to repatriate or resettle refugees, but to shelter and supply with medical assistance in the camps. In the 70 years at the end of the displaced persons camps in germany. The sense has been the limits of responsibility not to allow them to lead meaningful lives through repatriation over resettlement. This is tragedy that will only get worse. In my book, the only place for the displaced jews to resettle is independent israel and i make the argument that truman supports the establishment because he knows to establish the independent west germany of the anticommunist coalition you have to get the jews out of germany. With 250,000 jews in camps. He can get them into the United States, its israel so he supports an independent israel. But where do the jews go . They are settled in your communities agricultural settlements and houses and apartments that have been cleared of palestinians by the israeli army for in the case of those that had left voluntarily the israelis refused to let the palestinians return so the problem of the displaced jews is solved of the displacement of the palestinians i do not want to diminish the suffering of the jews but that lasted five years now its into the Third Generation with no signs of there ever being. So my last question before i move it over, i do want to make note of the theme of the aftermath the way that you conclude the book is titled aftermath so for me that suggest an idea of regeneration or some growth. I know so then the tragedy leads some way but before i let you go to the questions do you have a sense of redemption . Or do you feel like it just repeats itself . I will tell two stories quickly. One that was told to me about the holocaust talked about two displaced persons who when they arrive in israel, are sent to an apartment and as they move in they can see it is fully furnished, and they realize its bear because the palestinians have left so then they think about their suffering so they turn around and leave. The second story is about a man and his wife lola that i talk about he was 98 and she was 96 they had known each other in portland and matt and doc out on doc out concentration and their families had suffered immensely in camp after camp only the remaining relatives in the United States were resettled and relocated trying to find a home for the family three kids and a large brood of grandchildren that came to visit in the assisted living facility and this discussion to try to ask a question and looks at me knowing he said ive had a good life. I love my wife we been married 70 years i love my children they are finally letting me and one in. I want to have time for questions so i will turn it over to my colleague who will ask on behalf of those who were writing in. The first question is from debra can you speak of the survival spirit and how they kept hope alive . It is extraordinary. And you dont want to downplay it especially in the jewish camps. And to recognize that morning was a luxury and they would not forget the 6 million but they had to resurrect judaism. They were all clear about that. Those that were in exile and whose very job in their task and their mission to resurrect a cultural nationalism. So the spirit and the disparate persons camps is a victimization, but one in preparation for the next stage in their lives which they hoped and new would follow. This is from david cant a personal question. My father was a jewish refugee from austria escaped to england in 1930 interned in australia through 1942 then returned to england and came to the United States may 1948 and became a displaced person because austria was too small and the quota how did he come displaced if the act is not passed until june . I havent talked about in this interview there was a truman directive and a large part because he couldnt get the british to move, said the german and austria quotas would be combined number one and number two keys set up offices in and around the displaced persons camps to provide visa for those who could establish german or austrian citizenship in some way. So a small number of german and austrian jews were allowed to enter before the displaced persons act. They were not considered displaced persons because that which was defined those that fought against the germans and the austrians there were not displaced under the clear directive some of them were allowed to enter the country. We often taught firm not see germany with the major reason the allied fought in the world war ii since they were not concerned with the injustice perpetrated and mistreated them as well so at what point did that attitude change . Is this a failure of the historical curriculum . Its definitely clear to me that the war was not fought to save the jews no evidence whatsoever. Has a matter of fact roosevelts cap net went out of their way to discount and the word that american boys were sent over to save the jews. The was far from a variety of reasons but the rescue of the jews was never part of that. If thats currently in the textbooks then thats just wron wrong. And the waterways over the commonsense view is that americans opened their arms and pocketbooks to protect the jews 6 million had died but one quarter million remained. The commonsense view is we opened our arms. That was not the case. In the end, those quarter million displaced jews, only 60000 came to the United States as displaced persons. Some went to israel because there is no place else they could go there later came back to the United States. With a number of displaced jews allowed in one is minimal. This is a comment non resettlement is a tenant going home could lead to death the obligations some jews were forced but not until 1955 israel was willing to do so. Yes. Yes and no. Israel the very beginning said we will take all the jews that can come and israel set up an organization to bring the jews who had tuberculosis or were sick into israel there are large numbers of jews who remained in germany those were going to israel they couldnt live there because it was a state of war came back to germany and groups of Orthodox Jews that remained in germany before the most part the israelis accepted the jews and there are questions that they could have treated them better once they got to israel. And then also some resistance to bringing them into the country but israel did open its doors it felt an obligation to take as many jews that wanted to come to israel. This is from the Carnegie Council are there any lessons we can look one learn from us border with mexico . Yes. Yes. I will start with two. There has to be a factbased approach. Just as the jews were kept out with the myth that they were bolshevik all of us have to do everything we can to counter the nexus of mexicans who dont want to work hard or criminals all colombians are gang members there has to be a factbased realism but at the same time humanitarian interest at some point has to override geopolitical interest and differences. We have to open our hearts and our souls and our minds to the crisis on the southern border and their is no sign that is the current administration. I want to make sure david has a chance to sum up. I have a big question we may have to have a separate conversation over lunch sometime when you were a big part of the book you said the boy really doesnt and and it blends into the cold war so did you get of any thought to the counterfactual of the things that could have been done differently . Were we able to go back in time in the horizon called the problem may have been addressed more positive and less confrontation . Yes. Would have been possible to cooperate with the soviets and those and those that cooperated with the soviets, where criminals would have been found and brought to justice. The americans didnt cooperate with the soviets because we didnt trust them. But you have to trust them entirely into a cooperative relationship with them. And the hostility between the soviets and the American Coalition that it was unmanageable. Me we are at the top of the hour we have to adjourn. Thank you very much for spending time with us is another lifechanging experience for me looking at the war in a completely different way. Look forward to continuing the conversation of the future. Thank you very much. So we are not necessarily talking about atheist although about 6 percent of the population only tend to under selfreported but for whatever reason are alienated by the organized religion you may have a case with the judeochristian science. And that is the most visible version of the phenomenon and then with a particular tradition but is personal all systems are more eclectic. And then to believe in reincarnation which is not associated with christian orthodoxy. We are living in an age where religious life and then mixing and matching and then there is a sense that will make our own religion. But things like wellness cultur culture, political activism with a vast array me to paganism and work a the most fastestgrowing so on and so forth. Was the codirector of the Aspen Institute executive director of the global innovators group. It is a fascinating conversation