Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jessica Goudeau After The Last Border 20240711

Here at georgetown, the institute for migration. Spent a great partner for several years now. We welcome them in and thank you for all of their collaboration here. Let me remind you the webinars being recorded. Will post this event on our event page and a day or two. If you preregister for the event you will get an email with a link to the video as well. This time i think we are all zoom veterans. Just in case your memories are not what they should be, you notice on the tabs at the bottom of the screen theres q a. As a good deal of time at the end begin submitting your questions as soon as they pop into your head. Do not wait until the end that gives us a chance to sort through them but the best ones to jessica. Im so pleased that jessica can join us. Shes written for the york times, the atlantic, the washington post, los angeles times, teen vogue, among other places preach as a phd in literature from the university of texas and she served as a melon writing fellow and interim Writing Center director at southwestern university. She spent more than a decade working in austin texas and is the cofounder of the hill drivers a nonprofit that provide supplemental income for burmese refugee artisans for the past seven years. At the end, just got remind meet will give your website address of people can contribute to some of that ongoing work they will know how to reach you. So jessica welcome. Its certainly good to have you. Guest im so excited to be here. I will say to hill tribe are actually ended will we got a job part so we started and finished are nonprofit so they could all have employment. So fyi, appreciate the shot out though. Ive lots of ideas for other places if we want to talk about it. Sue and lets make sure we circle back to that at the end. This is a remarkable book. Many of the reviews have noted that in some ways there are really three stories here. We tell the story of two women in their brave and remarkable journeys. But resettlement into the United States. You also manage to give us a history of refugee policy which is very, very complex but its a very important thread. I guess my first question is, what drew you to these women and their stories into this amazing messy intersection of policy run global refugees . Think that such a great question. I think you in particular understand is someone who works at the center of these things that are often tagged or categorized in very separate ways. But really come together in a beautiful its both messy and also gorgeous to see the intersection of these things. And so i am particularly grateful to the center for peace, religion and World Affairs that i get the right order . So having me today in part one of things im most excited about is to have a conversation that sits at the intersection of so many different things. Just to make a very brief while as getting my nonprofit i worked with burmese refugee artisans here in austin trent austin. Funk had two career tracks. As of my professors at ut were very concerned about my focus on things outside of what is often a very limited and narrow field. And yet when i was writing the whole time i kept thinking and focusing on issues of representation here in poetry in the middle of the 20th century. This is how the u. S. In brazil, and having very similar conversations about how we are betraying a refugees impaired with the rhetoric run refugees looks like. I annoyed to have the sinks would come together and toes running a Writing Center at south whether universities georgetown, texas which is very different from georgetown. But when i was running the Writing Center i realize the rhetoric run refugees was changing. It felt like a change within a day. We went from 35 years of bipartisan support and years, decades before that. All the said the word refugee came synonymous with terrorist. I felt like i was someone who is uniquely situated having had relationships with these two women in understanding the history of a rhetoric and how conversation takes place in american publics mind that i was may be the only person who could see this unique work. So for me the intersection of this book comes in part because of my relationships it also my very academic background in a way i steered these things. You can take this and this and put it together in these ways. Think that really comes through in the book. Well talk about this later. The way you organize the book. This could be the and a radical train wreck. Right . Guest there are several drafts. See what the train wreck was avoided. Lets begin. You begin the book by beginning to tell the story of who comes from emr and has this journey in which i think shes five years old. So tell us a little bit about what precipitated her movement . Tell us what it was like to get off that plane in austin, texas for her. Guest there kind of two things when you talk about it. I really want to be cognizant of the fact we may be time for who may be interested in writing at some point. Want to talk a little bit about the subject and the craft. I think of something is learning as i went. The stereotype we have of refugees is there journey is told in every western movie is refugees are in work thats really terrible parts of journey across the ocean or through a desert. Sometimes in the jungle for the rambo film appeared thin they are saved by westerners and thats the end. Its like they picked up the soldiers there every things wonderful. And i wanted to begin there and show the opposite of that. I wanted that to be the beginning of the story. So i began with the first journey that was the expected story think a lot of people had. And because i wanted to talk about how young she was. And to give some of the background behind the longest running civil war in the world. Which decided her family. She is of the karen ethnicity which is a discrete group. There several other groups being persecuted by the host there. I also want to show in the very beginning it wasnt war that was most stressful to her. Was her parents divorce. I think we often come to the stories expecting refugees to really only be able to talk about the trauma they have endured when throughout these interviews ive done ive been dozens and dozens of interviews with very, very rarely stressful its the neighborhood, its the family dynamic. Just like it is for any of us may think about the pandemic, not just the pandemic with how it affects our lives, the very minutia of who we are people, right . That is what i wanted to show. Host then you tell the story dramatically about her getting off the plane in the first few days in austin. I can think back to when i was living in west texas and visiting friends in austin. The first signs with austin weird thinking what must it be like . Tell us a little bit about the role of the texas Resettlement Agency and the very equities are some religious groups there. They someone trying to integrate or become familiar with this crazy american culture. So what did tell you a little bit of my relationship she is my very first former refugee friends. I got to be part of the story it is the name of the organization at the time it was a very small, i think it was only in austin. They have since grown in the 15 years or so since the story takes place 21 of the largest agencies in the country. An incredibly about 3 of the refugees in United States total. Part of what is complicated and interesting for me is telling the story. You dont see this because its focused as a caseworker in her case i dont who it is. I tried to find her who was really overwhelmed at the time for theres a huge influx kind of out of the blue is a bunch of refugees came over from me amar. This is ernie george they raise the ceiling and everybody came and agencies were scrambling. I wanted to show that a little bit in part because i wanted to keep an eye on what might come there is a raise at some point. This is not a tap you can turn off and on. When it arrived in austin, when she described it for me weve known each other for a long time, she now speaks english well enough to be one of the best translator within our community here in austin. And so she was able to recount for me things, many of them saw it firsthand about six months in. Whos that listening to her to talk about what it was like showing up in austin. She is such an extraordinary job of really describing. That first scene was a very first chapter i wrote in the book based on a friendship. I said what happen that first day you showed up . She talked about her shoes how stressed she was about her shoes and how weird it was to go down the escalator, right . She did not have the right kind of suitcases. There is people and air conditioning, she assaulted by all the smells. It was such a great reminder to those of us who kind of casually journey on airplanes, what if absolutely overwhelming experience that was for someone who hardly ever left your camp. Supported by wanted to show us her own sense of discomfort and stress and overwhelmed and us and moving into the space that for us we kind of dismiss. We can kind of take these is really easy steps. But for her they were massive, monumental culture shocks. So one think or the things you point out is a lot of writing about refugees as they have no agency. They are dependent. And yet you do show through these womens stories the Remarkable Agency and energy they do in fact possess. It is not a patron client relationship. There is some metonymy they do have agency. Thats often a missing part. Guest them so glad you saw that. Part of what im really concerned about in the way that we often portray. And former refugees and other immigrants and review them through it a lens. This is i put my Academic Work in here. One of my favorite books is white women writing white. Literally, Elizabeth Bishop and all the way she pretrade people. It was very difficult for me at times to not get stuck in my awareness of all the things i could be wrong. So one of my solution so that was to keep the focus on these women so deeply tight there is a camera right over their shoulder all times. There are some times i was there and wish i wouldve taken some better notes than i did. I only reconstructed this through their memories. So it took us two years a very indepth interviews in order to have something that feels like what they viewed. I did not want this to be a Resettlement Agency idea or journalist idea. I wanted to be close to reconstruction of what they remember in their own words. There several things both of them, id like to take that out or rather not do at that way. They have ownership of how their story is shaped. Mike everything about this is watching them or realize something that was in some ways i was painting a portrait they were describing to me. As they looked at it i saw both of them say i am stronger than i knew. Its like both of us cried the day i realized she hates it when she tell people tells her she cant do something. When that happens it shifts for her. A lot of the action in the story he will see when summit he says you cant do this is not going to work and she says im going to show you. Its a personality trait she has. There is will strengthen that. Her goal of this book is for women to know they are strong. I just loved that. I love getting to bring that in. She had agency over her own story. She is a person that has around agency. The only reason shes not able to write her own story is she has family memory still in danger. I wanted to be a conduit is much as i could for her story. Through it and your afterward whats kind of good as we get inside of your head in terms of your recognition of intersection alateen here. And you are to listen to their voice. Until we come into our listeners to buy the book. Secondly the afterward is quite compelling when you talk about your method, your style, tortious you made or didnt make in terms of telling that story. Its really quite compelling. Three to thank you. So once a big deal to me that people understand this is not in other white person imposing her ideas of what it means to be a refugee. Someone with more than a decade of relationships in this community having my thoughts to allow them to speak in their own voices. Will also hiding their identity. One of the lines as i hide whitneys be hidden until it needs to be told. There is a place for people who dont necessarily have the language for this desire. Neither of them want to be the person bret tried on a number of occasions to have some kind of radio option or something so the voices can be heard and neither of them are interested in that. Neither wants her story told. Need to figure out how to do that. Shes wonderful. Lets move it to her story its quite different she comes in a different part of the world. Give us the capsule of her sword journey and what it was like to come to austin. Guest one of things i was conscious was wanting to work against the stereotype Many Americans have about the middle east as a place where conflict just happens. And who even knows. In the audience listening to the certainly doesnt see that. Something that happens quite a bit, even in the news publications to have to work with editors and we cant just reduce someones story. So what i wanted to do was show, she had a line over a year into our conversations and what she talked about it being honey on her tongue prettify could describe what it wanted to happen especially in the early parts of the book was that. The home she had the very first conversation she had she spent an hour telling you where her plants were laid out in her courtyard. I said this is a person who story i can tell. Shes on the best friends it was not a hard decision for me. When it came time to telling someone elses story i wouldnt make the argument in this book you cant care more for a christian refugee from emr and you do from a muslim refugee from syria. We cannot choose these people. I want to show the very different experiences that people from syria have arriving in comparison to what was seen from so many people arrive from other places. As i was meeting people listening to them describe was a stratagem not sure how to describe it. She so very good at explaining and what was happening and how change. I really wanted to describe it. The first third of the book that we dont get to her crossing the border for a while. Wanted us to sit in her home and understand the complexity is much as possible so much we cut so many delightful stories i wish i couldve included. This home meant everything to her. One of the syrian readers have to get over that before i sent it to my editor wish i could stay in the very beginning of the book. For me i took on some of her grief. It was a place or she never lock your doors anew all of her neighbors and live there for generations. Simply shes dying to leave so she could get to the United States. The war began in her hometown. It was just with some neighbor kids. And everything shifted. Those of us have been around protestants the others agitation in our cities have some connection with that, right . We do not know whats happening right now for husband and others whats happening and it being everything for them. I wanted to show that. Host in my travels admitted number of syrian refugees. There is a level of grief. They remember the deep pluralis pluralism, the intolerant has become a watereddown world and enter a word in western culture. There was this pride. They found a way over centuries to live together and to prosper. And for all of that to now lit up with a match and for the people who have fled in seen family members back home still suffering, it is a pain there. Guest when i think of the country of syria now, the first things i think of are the people who had coffee and come again dozens of syrian peoples were christians are related to muslims there Close Friends with jews, they were able to live together they were effigies in palestine and iraq. The hospitality of syrians, you and i both traveled in lots of places. Ive never seen anything like this almost to a fault. I showed up at a friends help the other day the translator who worked with us to drop off a gift with her, she had a latte waiting for me. Because i didnt want to show up and not have coffee. It was stressful right . For us to reduce this, im sorry to use this but its being used by our president for jihadist regions. Those of us who are in positions where we do not have, i do not have relatives taken this many to be the first in the line speaking out against this kind of stuff. It is horrible for this country to have endured what has endured and then for us to reduce their grief and shame to dismiss it and these ways. Its really a shameful part of where we are in this moment in our countrys history. So when ive a couple friends to American Foreign Service Officers who served in syria even when the conflict began to break out. They served like three years in damascus. And other places. They still feel a cultural pain in their bodies because they could absorb some of the pride of the history of syria. Its really quite extraordinary to see when you know somebody growing up in the United States have lived there for a number of years. They to carry often times an echo or trace of that same sort of natural and cultural pain that a lot of syrians do carry with them. Wonder if you could talk a little bit about the intersection of religion. Obviously in me marks quite complicated but in syria its quite complicated. On August Austin texas, what religious dynamics you see going on between the agencies and their clients but also the refugees themselves . Guest i actually dont think ive talked about this with anyone. The space of these two women is the most important thing. I dont think im giving anything in the book away that i and the book with both of them praying for those in intentional choice. Throughout both both of their stories theyre faced with something that come up on a number of occasions at every turn. She had a split household with a baptist parent or a buddhist parent and a christian parent. It reflected what often happens them emr. Missionaries went over in the 1850s. Theyre like different missionaries that targeted different regions. We have predominately Korean People who are christians and baptist, they tend to be catholic. So before the war in me mr which happened through western colonialism. Separate groups that were stuck within a one border that created a melting pot early crucibles in which the simplification to say that karen people are being targeted because of their faith but in some ways their faith is part of that. Not ethnically or historically. So there were refugees on the other side of the board are fleeing again these are complicated situations. What i really wanted to show in this moon came to christianity through her husband late in life. Its something because become powerful for her. And she has a deep association with the faith of her grandmother who was muslim. She has a family thats deeply faithful and her prayers something we dismiss people we based on their religion so wanted to juxtapose in a way that i dont to make the sympathetic. But you and i are both from places where people who came to this book could see the loving and wonderful sight of a woman back like it silly very frustrated or we have to humanize people. And yet i want to show people just like my own families and a deepest sense about us as we do. I think layla, she has a devotion that in some way exceeds the observance of the mother there. On the way you portray that is so powerful to knock down some western stereotypes i do want to say some of this was not just so i could have misconceptions. The way im talking thats true but also the truth is what has happened. Layla came there was a resurgence of interest and really faithful she loves it came from her smart daughter who thought about these things. And moved into those spaces and brought her mother along its really important to her that story comes in the bottom up in some ways generationally. Think a lot of us have water kids be smart and see things through pride we learn from them it was good to witness that. To act that was incredibly well told. Lets move now. Weve made of sort of signaling towards u. S. Policy. But one of the things you do quite brilliantly, ive read a lot of text about text and policy. Theres actually an oxford handbook on the Un Convention of 1951. Probably have to. May be blocking a door open. He skillfully between the episodes between the two powerful stories you do have this historical vignette going back to the beginning of the 20h century. He take us although down to the contemporary tolerance. The zigs and zags and retreats of the advances, its a dialectic between sort of the liberals and the restriction us. I notice is unfair to ask you this is about eight chapters here, where our weight and maybe having this . Maybe thats the way to pose the question. I think the fact that its readable. I get that comment from people this is a readable history for it has to be a true testament i spent a great deal of time telling me you absolutely cannot include that either. [laughter] said you look at my endnotes there little outrageous. I had it for whatever reason it gave me such peace of mind to be able to say im leaving all these things out. These are the ten books i consulted, right . It took the iron will and my amazing editor. He said part of what he think we want to do is its not a policy but i wanted to show is the history of the rhetoric of how we talk about refugees. Its the history the thing that i find so fascinating of Public Opinion is the thing that changed refugee government. Its not in crisis. I went into this thinking, new some of the basics of it. We studied poetry in the middle of the 1950s or so. I knew a lot of the rhetoric of the time. I was out of the frame were doing with poetry. But looking at this i didnt realize how much had shifted. And how the Public Opinion is kind of a cognizant thoughtful Responsive Community in crisis. The u. S. Is an up or guess we should do something. So is it what that u. S. , America Thanks about things is the thing that has changed this policy. But policy that affects people, right . The liberalizers and restriction us was a historical term because the positions have shifted it did not want people coming over taking jobs in the early part of the 20 century these positions have been fairly similar . The groups have changed right . The same arguments were hearing that theyre coming to take our jobs, they are all really scary terrorists. The same arguments that have been made for groups of people from china, from ireland from italy the coming to x, y, and z do this to us want to show this is not a new moment for us, right . This is exactly where we have been for a long time. Yet in some ways, or we are aware we been in the last five years is not about one administration its about a larger public turn. You back from the 1920s to see the racist language. With the isolationist policies being normalized. Such a large status we are getting right now. When use the turning dont if you coined it or not but if you you should certainly claim it. Talk about political enlightenment. Even with refugee policies. Can you say more about how that is still live and well . Absolutely cannot imagine i coined that. A lot of people have been saying. Flq can have messages just about anything it covers a lot of what we have been doing as a country in the last four centuries at least. When i began to get truth in numbers. I really didnt send so many refugee books really focus on this many Million People are displaced. I wanted to kind of show you those numbers to give us a sense of scope when youre going through history. As i began looking at that i realize there are so many places what was happening in india in the 1940s. Postcolonial literature is my jam. I was looking through all of these places where thered been displacements. Their major civil wards with humanitarian crises. There is zero u. S. Response until about the 1870s. So the history of whois logic coming to the United States and what it means to be a refugee for a long time there is not a separate term. And that meant jewish refugees and anticommunist refugees in the 1970s homeless in 1965 immigration see that reflected that he would people from other countries based solely on what is happening with humanitarian issues. Summary complexities around tha that. Its in a sort of consistent way. Until about 1980 was so we have about 40 years after that. About 35 and then five. [laughter] spewing to be honest to somoza band as strong as they could. Coming from many of these countries same as serve our southern border now. Returning people away have a legal right to comment apply for asylum. A counselor triangle and Central America coming up to mexico. You see a resent aunts and its racially based. Her deep roots in american history. Speech or nothing theres a surprise about this. So on friday night we were reeling from the news of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and trump was giving a Campaign Rally where he was ten but refugees. And picking the stories much as i could part of my frustration over the new cycle is the dominate in some very, very important things are happening. So the Refugee Resettlement, the leader talk about refugees she just called them theyre going come and overwhelm your schools, these people from jihadist regions, they are truly offensive language that we are so used to hearing that we dont realize. Theyve been hundreds of examples of this from the president and others. It is deeply offensive. I want to keep that in the forefront. It should not happen its really concerning. C1 correct me if im wrong they have good genes. Back in 2016 i did a quick tour of six Refugee Resettlement setters including one in dallas. What is is the level of grassroots interreligious collaboration. Move the directory to his offer sounds like a bad joke, is it even to local pastor and the mom and a rabbi was sitting in his office. Then congregations within 20 minutes of each other. They could never acknowledge the others existence except they walked into this Refugee Resettlement and realized was his love and compassion for the displays of the refugee im fairly convinced and reported it was a story. Its hard to pitch that story. In the contemporary media environment. Which are describing is no can surprise to me they didnt acknowledge each others existence. So fascinating in texas, i still feel them talking to someone i think i was attending a church we joined her several other groups in renting an apartment within the apartment complex people of every group and religion we have an entire meaning were absolutely not going to do that. The goal was never to bring people over and secretly indoctrinate them. With a handful of exceptions all across the country. I think thats what made this time so deeply hurtful to me. To be totally onsite very conservative relatives who i know for a fact to be a very first people who take a family into their home. When they have rallied around former refugees. There the point where theyre saying i dont want those children to come over. Im uninterested in the danger that the grandchildren is currently living in today we hope there is a chance we can return i dont know. Six of those nine agencies are faithbased. Almost all of them had massive layoffs of staff. A lot of Refugee Resettlements are basically fractions or shadows of what they once were. Lets move to that question. If you are in charge of the world. [laughter] guest i would have a long list. Yes. We resettle back in the reagan era 200,000 refugees, what would a better what with the best system look like in terms of the United States Refugee Resettlement system if suddenly you could snap your fingers and make it so. What will be different . What would it look like . Im going to begin as a cabbie im a doctor in poetry. I am good at listening. This is what i have heard from several different peoples. The something called the grays act that was introduced into congress that set a minimum as well as having a ceiling. Right now the refugee act, had an amazing conversation last week who got the refugee act of the house the 1980s a pass a unanimously. I asked her jeff regrets about the effective given so much control to the president . And she said we just never thought any moment turn against refugees. It is not a question there were such profound a bipartisan National Support for resettling refugees at the time. This was after the vietnam war. As a nonpolar time of the u. S. History, right . I think theres some significant changes of happy made immediately. One of those as we need to not ever allow anyone brand of government have such control. This is a system that took decades to build up. The damage has been pretty done is pretty for profound. At the same time there is some opportunity. Anytime anything is destroyed theres opportunity to rebuild and rebuild better. I was lucky to get to hear the biting campaign, tony blanket was given a presentation about their plans. There are some really Amazing Things they are doing. They feature the voices of former refugees and those conversations. Many of the policy people of relatives of former refugees. Many people leading the charge or former refugees. That has to be important. I think if we are to rebuild, there are some really beautiful ways to do resettlement outside of the United States. Communes are able to sponsor people. I think keeping it just in these agencies there may be some opportunities to expand what we need with resettlement. Mostly i think we need to have some president s or anyone ever again able to take us to the slow place pretty special the time when there such a great need. I dont think resettlement is the only answer by think its a tiny, tiny, tiny peace of a much larger system internationally that needs to be addressed. Theyre very smart people that are doing that. The focus of my book focuses on that. I dont think we want to act as if its the only way for every fixed resettlement i think we need to keep it for having a higher ceiling and ensuring that agencies not partnering with them have a really complicated upanddown print thats what was happening in the 1850s and 60s. Once in the 1980s the ad hoc policies obese stabilizing this program. We need to stabilize it more thoughtfully. Sue and thats really great. Let me remind everyone listening please send in your answers now pardo moved to that in a few minutes. Got a couple of the cube please send some more in. I wonder to, one of the most powerful statements that you come to see this issue for the compassion and really the moral compass of our country. And yet the compass obviously he goes back and forth. What role do communities say in the United States display here in terms of being engines for generating that kind of compassion. If you could say a little bit more about that. Sweetie i did not in anyway set out to write a love letter to a federal program part if you like that is what i did. I feel it collapsed in realtim realtime. This is about what happened in the past for there is a measure of real kind of grief that i feel around that. In part is there are so few. We are very adamant about the separation of church and state as we should be. But there are so few places where people from a variety of good and partnering with in order to create, it really is a supply chain or pipeline in which people are able to come and have hope. Now that i look back on it, i almost cant believe it was able to come together. It feels like such an unlikely thing, right . I think i use that word a few times in the book two. And yet it was remarkable looking back on what happened in the ways that i think this is a core tenant of all religions. To care for people not just because theyre going to give something to you. Not a transactional but a relational caring. Even if im not connected and i didnt know them. We should list think more compassionately with these in man amazing lands we have taken over we have our own complicated history. I did nothing we are able to help people. In conjunction with a lot of other things were keeping her allied partners from not being overwhelmed by this. I think for me the real step forward whos going to have to come people with a variety of faith. They have to understand the necessary leap that we need to make for the common good. Sue and i think most of the major religions and even not so major religions, leadership is really quite eloquent and powerful part often times you know as well as i do, leadership can be clear. There can be prophetic voices. In terms of the rankandfiles, the gap is quite large. And speaking in terms of Christian Community, sometimes Christian Community leadership is not been effective. It actually convincing the constituency that indeed this is an issue where our compassion should grow legs and manifest itself. Got a couple questions here. Let me see heres a great question from jessica muller. She asks, what careers would you recommend for people who want to do more and work with refugees. Now youre answering this is a scholar parade this is perfect its great hvac i hope no one follows because it is a very awkward. For people who want to work with refugees thats kind of the end goal . Host how do you get their perspective thats a great question for there are a number of nonprofits can do it in america. You work with resettlement agencies you can broadly im having a fantastic conversation with a group called no radio. Org pretty slick narration with no end. Listening to him talk about the spectrum of ngos around the world. They have artists, they have lots of people doing very specific ngo nonprofit work. There are so many spectrums. There so many ways in which groups from a variety of traditions are able to work with refugees. I would say to me its more you can do it as a journal she do it as a writer can do it as a doctor. There so many ways in which you get to do that. I think part of whats so unique about this is not just refugees is displaced people. Or at a place in the world with their for a variety of reasons not just because of work. The un is very rigid and very small definition often means people who qualify for refugees get attention paid happens in my book. There are just millions of people right outside this definition to have that attention. For like a good name just about anything. Its from almost any discipline to commit and focus on humanitarian issues and what is happening with displaced people around the world. Boy do we need that right now. I think this is going to be the issue of the century people who dont realize that. The worst thing missing in her own countries was happening in portland and oregon. People are going to be displaced by Climate Change and persecution. Going to have to fare how to address that in a variety of ways. Almost anything. Your point is well taken. There are some scholars now arguing people on the moon other people arguing that people who move because of Climate Change actually may be converted quickly the largest single source. They dont fit, they dont fit the legal framework. I would also say, and going to these six centers, just talking to the staff. I remember in dallas run by a catholic charity. Consolation for i said how did you get here tell me your stories. Many of it started out by doing internships and Resettlement Centers but they there are many paths to that ive been to several interface dialogues but the vatican and buddhist religion coming together. How can our Education System encourage future generations to develop with literacy and understanding great question. Anything about that . Guest you are someone who does religious training part i have some thoughts on that but ill be curious what you think first. So what i get to higher staff of 35 in the office of religion in Global Affairs paid my second question where my going to find the people who are qualified and have security clearance. Its a pretty small set. I think theres a lot of religious literacy work now in the university where the universities become more diverse religiously on the country does. Some universities responding very creatively and sing that as a resource of the student body. In trying to create spaces and curriculum that helps encourage these types of conversations. I think doing the work of helping refugees move into this bizarre culture is it self some of the smartest people i know from the religious perspective or folks are refugees who are now working in refugee Resettlement Agency. Because they have to develop this across an astonishing array of religious origins. I think that such a good answer. Im in a put on my melon writing fellow. Working in the Writing Center part of what youre looking at is how disciplined right . And what it means for them to write and create interdisciplinary writing. Its the same type of opportunity. Again it something you are really family with at the center that crosses disciplines. I think any time were so focus on the disciplinary boundaries of history or english or religion and we dont recognize. Think theres a lot of academia i think theres often as much fundamentalism and academia as there can be an religion. And actually know a lot of wonderful academics working against that. I think the opportunities for people to recognize the points of connection the intersection analogy is such a great word. And that is become such a regular word for use i think that kind of work is really important. We dont expect people who are all of one religion to speak for everyone of that religion. But can recognize theres a large spectrum of experiences. The phrase my best friend started nonprofit talks about the structure flexibility. That may be the move we need is how to continue recognizing the disciplinary structure that we need to be flexible within that is different groups come up of all these different ways. That is the way we are going to be able to teach these things more thoughtfully. I think its possible in a setting that it may not always be in a younger grade setting. People are so focused on a task. I feel as a parent im costley trying to navigate with the children for its more complicated to get to High School Middle school and other grades im sure. We saw that. My kids grew up here in Fairfax County which in 20 years is gone from really very white bread to incredibly complex bird i used to listen to my kids. One time i rationally said in the classroom and getting very little religious conversation. The cafeterias a soccer pitch, you are living it. The lack of structures part of the genius two. But it is strictly student driven outside of the classroom. You know what if things were trying to do with the Berkeley Center we have a wonderful center, is probably turning purple right now but i will brag on him. Were trying to think about what are the learning outcomes. What we want students to come to our program to learn, not only learn but what are we teaching. Are we teaching what we should be . The needs are basic fundamental questions that we want to align all of our student programming and teaching. So we can actually say, we may have five years of literacy training. Lets be more intentional. I think in terms its an amazing opportunity. Now whether we will be able to scale it and scaffold it in a way that is productive remains to be seen. I think your emphasis on writing may also be brilliant avenue that sitting in front of us. Guest ill just be honest. As someone who teaches writing, i think the Critical Thinking skills that we teach what we teach writing, when we are missing this Critical Thinking skills which people are able to read the text and understand the culture and their religious backgrounds pretty think really its kind of what most people who are interested maybe some of this is subject specific. This is maybe the point of connection for a lot of the community we want to teach the Critical Thinking apply a variety of subjects including religion in order to recognize where people are coming from what their cultural strengths and mobilitys are. Guest absolutely. See what its the third rail in the class. How to remodel not making it a resource for acquiring these kinds of skills. Right we got another question here. Got a few minutes left. About minnesotans in their blood to the cheers of his audience how much racism is there in todays policy towards muslims . I think this is what, so i come to this being very concerned about how i as aye woman should not be appropriate in the story. Yet intention with that i am someone who comes from a position of traditional power. As a Christian White woman from texas. There are some things i can say and do an absolute should it when it comes to speaking out against racism. We have not seen this again looking at the history of this we have not seen this blatant language from a president or president ial candidate in 19204 theyre basically only allowing people to come because they only wanted white and theyre very clear about it the whole genesis idea that white people were scientific superior to others. And so i feel deeply, deeply deeply concerned. This is not just for the president a tap in for 20 years at least if not longer. Weve had several policies have been highly anti muslim. Theyve led to difficulties im sure there are so many people in our audience thinking they can tell so much better than i could with this experience has been like. I think it really requires all of us to have relationships with people who are voting for someone using this kind of racist language. It requires all of us to put those relationships on the line. Im having a complicated conversation with a relative whos upset with me at time at the hatred i habit i dont have hatred. I think that is my moral duty. I think we should always call out language that talks about peoples good jeans, and assume some group of people is there to overrun or overwhelm, the list of things it goes on and on. Its on those of us to do what we can to talk about it absolutely. So what in the deaths absently right one of the interesting things that changed my life to member my first trip to Houston Texas where it seems to me there are more pickups than human beings. In 2016 i went to houston, spoke at rice university. It was not my freshman year in college, Houston Texas. That may be the most religiously diverse city in the United States. See what i think thats probably true. Thats where i draw hope for things like texas or you literally half a century ago. That even there the complexity, the complexion the diversity has undergone dramatic change. These issues that people have to confront identity and new ways and realize the old restriction is not going to be successful Going Forward by virtue with these realities. Talk to some people have said in the last 30 years as of never had this kind of language. Weve gone back so far so quickly. We talked with the kind of profound public awakening after world war ii, the antisemitic language around refugees. Now is a moment in which we have the same kind of profound public awakening. I hope its a pandemic some element of that same basic humanity can rally after the country to speak out against that kind of stuff. A friend of mine once said when you attack racism, racism fights back. I think that is what we are seeing everywhere. I do remain hopeful. We come to the end of our hour. Jessica thank you. The book is after the last border, to families in the story of refuge in america. It is a great read. Im going to be using us in the text next semester. Thank you so much for your work. Wish you the best of luck in promoting the book. shaun