Can you describe the scene . Susie sherbet personal thank you for having me. There is no sense of this one you have to remember is trump did not come as a bolt out of the blue. Even taking for years is running for president. He was not quite sure how it he did not have an identity sometimes he was a democrat sometimes he was a republican sometimes he is an independent. By 2012 he was getting serious about it. And david is a conservative activist, hardline conservative activists was a friend of donald trump and he decided to talk to him about running for president. They took his friend steve bannon who did not know donald trump at that point to new york to eat meeting at trump tower to talk about the possibility of donald trump running as an outsider how would he do it . David bossi sits down with steve bannon and donald trump that heres the way you run it the traditional reagan republican. Which is the way almost all republicans ran at that point. Steve bannon speaks up and says something different. He said that is not going to work anymore. If you are going to run each run for the populace and he talked to pat buchanan and ross perot. As a new populace mood in the country. And donald trump looks at steve bannon and see bannon tells a story and says your right i may popular wrist. Any kind gets the terminology mangled. But see bannon concludes later he is right. If he is going to run as a popular is, take populism make it popular in all about him. And then he decides not to run in 2012. Before his later thats exactly what he does. In the meantime between 2012 and 2016 he hones that message. There are a lot of starting points for the trump revolution if you will. That is at least one of the more intriguing ones. I know. It really is at the very beginning trump is been all about. Very much so. I interviewed Newt Gingrich for the book a couple of times. Newt gingrich is fascinating. And a lot of insights into this. Read the book tells of a fortyyear period of the conservative revolution from Ronald Reagan freely in 1979 when he starts to run for president to Donald Trumps arrival and where we are today. And Newt Gingrich has that whol whole. In one of the things he said to me though is donald trump is not a conservative. He is an anti liberal. He thanks a lot of liberal thinking is not sense. But he doesnt have a philosophy. Does not have the National Review which is kind of the bible of modernday conservatives in. He is an instinct player and it is about him. That is all fine with his supporters that some that we learned in 2016 page not have to be a traditional conservative or ideology. What you are against at this point in our political history is as important as what you are for. Host one thing that makes us so different from so many other political books is that there is an autobiographical thread that goes through. His first person plural. How did you come up with this title . And what we were attempting to do with that . That is interesting. It was not my plan. You are a journalist i am a journalist. To think about something in the first person is exceptionally uncomfortable. Its not what i intended to do. But when i got into this project it was an attempt to explain, as the title suggests worded donald trump come from. I got very interested in the starting points. The starting point really was 1979 when the carter presidency collapses. Carter gives them a speech kind of throws up his hands and said we are in terrible trouble here. The country is then turning too Ronald Reagan who wins the presidency in 1980. That began a four decade. Of influence in the countrys political spirit think the conservative movement was through that. Perhaps the most powerful of the time. I decided that was the story is going to tell with the story of how the conservative movement drove john rose to prominence and power under Ronald Reagan. Somehow evolved to picking donald trump to be the standardbearer by 2016. When i talked with my editor at random House Speaker about it he said that is the arc of your career isnt . And its trooper it i arrived in washington to cover washing for the wall street journal in 1980. In the spring of 1980. And then i and kind of following the story ever since. He said the editor of random House Speaker that you should put yourself in a books. You witnessed a lot of this that youre going to write about. You should tell us what it is like to be there. That is how that came about. It was not my idea. Once i accepted the idea to insert myself occasionally in the story i saw this convention this is what i felt like. I interviewed bill clinton at that point and this is what it sounded like. I hope its not too intrusive, hope it humanizes a story a little bit. Is not a natural or comfortable place for journalists to land. Sue and thoughts talk about 1980. Ronald reagan represented a number of things. He didnt represent very traditional conservative principles. Freetrade, smaller governments, stronger military. He was in some ways an internationalist. But he also comes along with this sort of opportunistic upbeat view of the world. And something that the country, after jimmy carter in there. That you write about, it is a shot of selfconfidence. The country really needs at that moment. And people forget, i certainly remember it was one of the formative memories of my political consciousness in some ways. By 1979 they said the presidency is too big of a job for any one person to handle. Maybe we need to split into and have a domestic policy in a Foreign Policy president. That is how the Carter White House was at that point. You are right, ronald ragan walked the door and said explicitly this is nonsense. We can do this is pull yourselves together here and move forward. That was the attitude. The philosophy was with conservative 1976 just four years earlier Ronald Reagan trying to get the nomination away from gerald ford and the Republican Party. In the party decided in the country decided hes too conservative thats too far out there. But by 1980 Ronald Reagan had not moved. But the country was ready for it. It has as much of carters failures ragan success but there you have it. What really happened in 1980 that i did not appreciate intelligent the book was it Ronald Reagan took a basic core message that he had developed for years. And expanded it and flushed it out. So how did that happen . First of all is economic velocity k more clear because he took supplied economics from jack kemp and said i am not for balancing the budget im for a big tax cut that will spur the economy. He had a conservative message its only had a little oracle to it. And united with united conservatives. That had not happened. That was a revolutionary idea that people in the evangelical movement get out of the churches into the political movement. That is not happened before certainly not on this scale. Ronald reagan went to them and they came to Ronald Reagan and linked arms. Their economic conservatives and social religious conservatives. And then he made common cause with the neoconservatives the hawkish democrats in Foreign Policy who are very antisoviet, very much cold warriors. And he brought them into the coalition. And that is where the anti communism that help this group together for so many years kind of provided the glue that kept it altogether. And what Ronald Reagan did in 1980 he put those three elements together and created a coalitio coalition. Mr. Not a conservative message is a wreck and brought to the table in 1980. Also is not entirely clear at the beginning that is going to succeed. He gets through massive tax cut with his economic program. But the next thing that happens is he gets hit by big recession. And he pulls back some of this economic policies unit implemented. What did that due to the movement . Thats a good point and often forgotten that we cut taxes and are thinking back to life. That was not true at all for there is a giant taxcut first first year in office. Psalms exactly what he asked for prayers considered dangerous and revolutionary and it did not work right away. The deficit exploded, republicans were crazy nervous with what had happened. The recession continued, the economy was going down. This look like it might be for a while a colossal failure. In effect so much so that in 1982 republicans, led by bob dole and harold baker pushed through congress a tax bill that took back some of those tax cuts. They were so worried about the deficits are opening up. And then eventually the combination of deficit spending frankly because the government had not been cut much and the tax cuts finally kicked in. And by 1982 funneling things started to take off. There is a. It looked as if this might be a riverboat gambler is power baker preferred to print a riverboat gambler that wouldve gone bust. It was not an instant success by any stretch of the imagination. Host you also write about how at this time there is sort of a scaffolding, and infrastructure being built so that reaganism without ragan. Could you talk a little bit about that . Those who were traveling with him on this road and the establishments, think tanks and outside organization. Guest again when you do a book he gets look the Rearview Mirror and suddenly there clearer that way is looking out the front windshield at times. This is one of the things i did not appreciate at the time. I live through it happen so incrementally i did not really grasp it. You go back and look you realize that one of the things that happen in the first ragan term. Also the reagan years was the construction of a conservative infrastructure that could support the reagan revolution. And it doesnt exist. Liberals had an infrastructure, a think tank network of supporters Money Organization activists off of the new deal era and beyond that supported what they were doing. Conservatives did not have that. They sort of created it. It took various forms. I had northwest americans for tax reform. An organization create at the behest of the Reagan White House when a group out there in society somewhere to support our taxcutting regiment. And to lend some firepower to support what we are doing. You have gopac which is a very sleepy organization that tried to recruit republicans from for state legislature. Newt gingrich takes it over and puts it on steroids. All the said and you have a giant nationwide farm team of republican conservatives being developed at the state level offices and house races. Theyre all being fueled by Newt Gingrichs ideas. Two and can i interrupt, describe the technology by which they are doing this . I mean i have thought, have long sought that the happiest coincidence and Newt Gingrich entire political career was the fact that he and the cspan camera arrived at the House Chamber at practically the same moment. He is spreading his message through cspan. But talk a little bit about the tapes. Newt gingrich has used two technologies that the timer cutting edges seem ridiculous now right . When was cspan cameras. He figured out if you showed up Late Afternoon on the floor of the house the cameras were on and cspan was showing what was happening to the country. But theres nothing happening. See step in you fill the vacuum where called regular order beaches. You basically spread the gospel because you have a platform available for you. He does that pretty lc uses kissimmee tapes which seems ridiculous now. He figured out they were all of these republican wannabes out there that wanted to be conservative reagan foot soldiers but they needed instruction in talking points. They needed practical advice. So he figures out the way i can do this i will make kissimmee tape recordings of things republican should say and do and know if they are going to run for office as a conservative. He sends them out by the thousands across the country to grass roots young republican politicians by large. Who are meant to take the kissimmee tapes, put them in their cars and they are going from event to event and listen to them. And they are basically getting howto instructions and doctor nation from Newt Gingrich as they go thither days and on the campaign trail. This turns a whole generation of young republican conservative into Newt Gingrich conservative conservatives. Who are all basically playing by the same playbook. So gingrich does all of those things. At the same time the nra becomes a more political organization, fueled on ironically by a democrat who is an outdoorsman very much guns rights democrat the immense is the they should defendant done right not just outdoor conservation and hunting and fishing parts of that happens. And crucially the other organization that gets created in this period was the federal society. Which was again a completely novel idea. It organization of conservative legalists. Lawyers and law professors which created an extend and spread the conservative legal gossip. What then turns out that it is an organization that is readymade to recruit federal conservative judges. So the federal society is created during this incubator. When it starts to recommend people and promote conservatives who are nominated to be judges federal and state judges. And now today the federal society is the most important force pushing conservative judges onto federal benches and the Supreme Court in all of washington. It is basically running that part of the operation for the Trump White House and to some extent which mcconnell the republican leader in the senate. All that started during the reagan years. And then have another funny story of the creation of the Heritage Foundation and essentially lends office. Again this is things are going on right under your nose you did not note the time. There is a sense early on for this is just before the reagan years in the late 70s. Some had a sense there needed to be a conservative machine and washington to counter ocs as the liberal machine. One of the people whos interested in doing this was joseph who is the coors beer magnet from colorado very conservative, interested in how to assert himself. He sends a letter to a colorado senator think im going to come to town i like to talk about how to spend money to spread the conservative gospel. And he has in mind probably giving a big check to the American Enterprise institute which is the one notable conservative think tank at the time. This letter that was intercepte intercepted. And ed fuller among a couple other people is aware of this trip. He basically hijacks the trip and arranges to meet with joseph coors. It is that i have a better idea. We should have a very aggressive small kind of green beret dig tank in washington that does not just put out white papers that people read and then put on their shelf. But its out there creating action. So he arranges to have a meeting with joseph coors to talk about this idea. But ed folders a very smart guy. He realizes this meeting will have more impact if it does not happen in some restaurant and hotel in downtown washington. But if it happens in the white house where Richard Nixon was still in office at the time. And lynn was a likeminded conservative from california was working in the white house. So they arrange for this meeting to be held in lynns office and the Old Executive Office building to impress joseph coors. They walk into the meeting and joseph coors said these guys think i should give them some money to start new conservative think tank. I think theres already one town called the American Enterprise, why dont i just give them my money . They arrange this ahead of time. They walk over to his bookshelf in the Old Executive Office building, pulled off the shelf and aei study on something, he blows dust off of it which she put on the study ahead of time the show is been sitting on my shelf gathering these for many weeks and months. This is what we do with ai studies here. They just go on the bookshelf and they gather dust. You should give money to these guys. So joseph coors cuts a check to ed for liberty because out rented townhouse on capitol hill and the Heritage Foundation is born. And it gets its name because one of its partners is walking through his neighborhood in Fairfax County virginia and suburban washington and are trying to figure out what to call it. He sees a group of Housing Division called the heritage home. He said that will be a nice name. So he called the Heritage Foundation and as they say the rest is history. As a giant multimillion dollar a year conservative think tank. It drove the reagan agenda. And it is still active today. It had its seeds in this. When conservatives felt they had double up if you will. Suet another thing you see happen over the 1980s. Especially the 1980s late going into the 90s as the language of politics begins to shift. It becomes a much rougher, darker kind of lingo that people are using. In part, Newt Gingrich is a leader in this sort of coaching acolytes on the way they should be framing these things. Suspect that is a big change. Its driven by Newt Gingrich more than anyone else. Ronald reagan had an all quality about him. He would set his jaw sometimes i get angry and talk about welfare moms and things like that. But it did not really last. People do not think of Ronald Reagan as a fighter in the personal sense. They thought of him as a kind of guy who would famously go out and have a beer at the democratic speaker of the house, to oneill after the day was over. Thats a little bit exaggerated but he was kind of a republican who could get along with everybody. It was basically like by people who thought he was shallow and a warmonger. Newt gingrich arrived and said conservative and republican seven way to contempt for way too long to be the minority party. We have accepted that we are kind of meek we sort of shuffle along and go along the democratic majority in congress. And it is time for that to end. These people taken advantage of us, we are going to fight them. He starts to basically develop a much more futuristic style. This happens in particular when he decides, he, new gingrich who goes after the then speaker of the House Speaker presets up to take him down. And does so by accusing him of ethical shortcomings. In particular ethical crimes associated with a book he had written for what she is getting the proceeds from book sales that were being arranged by his office. As political profiteering if you will. He because out and use the cspan time we talked about earlier every day to go after the democrats and very harsh terms. And basically turns the tenor of the conversation of washington in a different direction. That has a lot of impact. It has impact within the Republican Party. Because basically this all plays out in part while george h. W. Bush, Ronald Reagans Vice President has become president. Hes also kind of mainstream almost genteel personality. Yet the parties slowly being taken over by the Newt Gingrich forces which are pushing a much harsher, much more combative view of the world. Its not inconsistent with the reagan message philosophically. But totally it is quite different. I talked with ron emmanuel who is the mayor of chicago the white house she sent staff or barack obama. Is also leading member the house for several years. He worked with them against Newt Gingrich in many ways going back to the clinton years. And he said i think of Newt Gingrich as the main figure and the Republican Conservative Movement was really when the reagan era ended. Not when donald trump arrived but when Newt Gingrich became the leading spokesman for the millet because he represented and i think theres something to this. He, Newt Gingrich represented such a department or from Ronald Reagan tone and style if not substance. That was the end of the reagan. Someone speaking into the early 90s begin to see a few figures do in fact depart from what William F BuckleyRonald Reagan would recognize as conservative conservatives. A lot you see for the first time i viewed strains of populism showing up in the party. Then you chocolate that it where that came from . Soon i think the important figure in the real canary in this coal mine was pappy cannon. Pat buchanan was a Nixon White House aide. He is a Ronald Reagan loyalist freight loves Ronald Reagan to email addresses a variation on the gipper. It was the ultimate reagan soldier. But in the early 19 90s he decides that the conservative message has missed the beach. It is not working out enough for workingclass americans. Those are the people have begun moving into the Republican Party for cultural reasons. There against abortion rights, they dont like liberals. And so they are moving into the Republican Party. Pat buchanan thanks they are being hurt by her economic message. We have a freetrade message but closing down factories so they can move to mexico. I we have to stop that. Immigrants are moving in its not taken their jobs are driving the other wages and we have to stop at two. He begins and pat is quite eloquent about this. He says i began to develop a different view of what conservatives really is and should be. And it was very much early donald trump. Its anti free trade, after the north American Free trade agreement. Its very much anti immigration. Its anti imports from abroad. It is pro american slot promote american industry lets have industrial policy. These are all basically heresies to traditional conservatives. Pappy can begins pushing them when he runs for president 92 and again in 96. At that point hes a minority figure and he is dismissed as a cultural warrior because he is also very much pushing the agenda of the religious right. I think a lot of people in our business dismissed him as nothing of a cultural warrior. Someone whos pushing a great ring cultural agenda. The importance of pat buchanan with economic message he was pushing. And it is from that point, i think the 92 campaign when pat buchanan had a fairly serious run for president really hurt george hwb bush really hurts him in that campaign. You can draw a Straight Line from that buchanan became a 1992 to donald trump at 2016. In fact built machen turf is a republican pollster dispelling the nbc news partner sentiment one point, donald trump is just pat buchanan with his own airplane. That is how similar the messages are. That to me is the first sign that there is not only a movement within the rubble Republican Party is turning more populous fray but also the potential for a spokesman to crystallize that movement. Pat buchanan was just a little ahead of his time i think. Cement throughout that same families have the emergence of the celebrity billionaire washington outsider as well. Talk a little bit about ross perot and where to seek him and with all of this . Guest ross perot really was donald trump before donald trump or hes a billionaire businessman. I checked that box. Hayes very much a loner and independent personhood no real political connections at all, so check that box. Hes a little paranoid and little conspiracy minded, check that box off. He has a very kind of unlikely way to connect with the working people. You have a billionaire talks to the workingclass paper as appreciated by them it is not resented for his wealth but admired for. Donald trump check to. He brings us a message. He starts, interestingly, ross perot, thinly federal spending is out of control theres too much red ink. Got to get off this is going to kill us. Its very much a traditional conservative balance of books and message. Pretty soon he moves on to eight nationalist antitrade. He becomes the person who picked up the pat buchanan seen and talked about enough as creating a giant sucking sound thats moving all of our jobs out of the u. S. Into the south. Then he picks up a row following there. Unite both probably wrote about the perrault army in 1992 and again in 1996. He was pushing back against a bipartisan established belief in the virtues of free trade. And he ran as an independent and finally a third party figure. Had an amazing 19 of the votes. 1992 probably stop george hwb bush getting a second term. Really sends a shiver down the spines of the business constituency of the Republican Party in the conservative. But ultimately collapses because of his own personal flaws in many ways. He is paranoid, he cannot keep advisors around, he is little scary to people. But he has a message that like cannons as a sign of things to come. And interestingly the parallels too trumper up and down the line. One of them was he figured out the way on the soapbox for his use was to go on cable tv constantly and talk about it. But that is donald trump two decades later, three decades later. It is the same playbook in many ways. Its just the country was not ready yet for ross perot. By 2016 it was kind of ready for donald trump. and similarly, a fair amount of reporting in the 1992 in 1996. And ultimately throughout the patriot party. He said the blood got to know 1996 would been regular people in the patriot army, up in pennsylvania. These were people who felt their part of pennsylvania had really been hurt by factories closing down and moving overseas particularly factories but others. And really believe that ross perot hundred point that he was right about the country hurting itself. By letting freetrade get in the way of what he did for regular americans. But whats interesting to me i went back and looked at some of the stories during that. Time, theres not have the same feeling about ross perot eventually the lot of Trump Supporters fellow about donald trump from basils law spread the recognize that it was kind of that egomaniac and a little paranoid. That he was erratic and they were she nice third was also crude sometimes. The other thing to hear Trump Supporters say about donald trump. But he can carry the message so we will put up with his flaws because we believe he is the messenger that we need right now. That was another interesting parallel that i realize going back between ross perot than a donald trump now. And the people who follow him words starry eyed in sort of mesmerize. They were hardheaded and realistic in any ways about the messenger they had chosen. They saw the flooded messenger but the best one available. Karen so important sort of the things that were opening up in part because george w. Bush also was not as skillful handling the domestic economy on the international stage. In 1992. Two years later, Newt Gingrich had not gotten anywhere in two years later for the first time, and 40 years, the republicans take over the house with Newt Gingrich as their leader. Gerald in that proposition, very firmly old gingrich beliefs at that time was that there was an reagan and prove there was, and potential conservative majority in the country. And that by all rights, republicans should be in control of the house if nothing else in the senate. That george w. Bush failed because he was not conservative enough. So we should have the white house. But we are going to make sure we take that congress and people were very skeptical as people you know. Newt gingrich puts together contract with america. Basically steals ideas there literally out of Ronald Reagans speeches and he put them together in the list of ten. It is not mentioned the word republican at all. So this not a seen as a republican document is a conservative governing document for all of america. They set out and against the backdrop against a very common disorganized disjointed, somewhat scandal of early Clinton White house. And we can govern as conservatives and heres my proof. I am contract. This is what we are going to do. So he tried to fix the conservative movement from an ideological moment to governing platform. And he produces that platform with a contract of america and it works. They win back control of the house. It is a shock to the entire system. I could not tell and i still cannot allow, it is a shock to Newt Gingrich. Nonetheless, and happened. It was an earthquake. It was one of the biggest things, happened in this town since reagan himself was elected. So gingrich is basically taken over as a successor to ronald ragan and clear leader of the conservative movement. He then proceeds to dominate the agenda. And he bill clinton becomes too they beat boomers are destined to collide. I prefer the collided, and the real reason that i think the Newt Gingrich did not succeed in establishing himself and his leadership for the long run, was a kind of got outmaneuvered aggressive but he wasnt even smarter better politician than him. It was bill clinton. Bill clinton realized gingrich has a point. The country is moved to the right. I am going to move the Democratic Party low bed. According to move her mother crazily moves to the center any plants a flag in the center in the years between 1994 and 1996. Basically takes over that part of the country in the ideological spectrum. I basically moving towards gingrich, finding him. But that turns out to be very successful. Karen think people can watch in washington at the time, they probably dont remember have this completely was reoriented everything. One point bill clinton actually says evan declares the president is still relevant. Gerald also by the way along the same stretch of the year of the government. So he basically, decides that i am going to best basically by following him to the right. And he takes the Democratic Party with him there. It takes a while. Because gingrich was a dominant force in town. In one of the anecdotes that have given in the book is during this period we discovered, we do focus groups and such. That in the fashion of the wall street journal, we have the line drawings other than pictures. If you put the name gingrich in the headlines in for a little wind drawing embedded in the story, the readership of the story immediately shut up. He was that fascinating with people of that mesmerizing breathing people who hated Newt Gingrich were fascinated by him. He has that. All of that power at his disposal. And to some extent he was squandered it by just basically wearing people out. And overdoing it. Karen he overreaches five basically two backtoback government shutdowns that the republicans got all the blame for. I think the polling suggested that the impeachment of bill clinton was also big overreach by august of 98, the polling suggested the people wanted clinton to be centered and get back to government. Gerald and overreaches the right word karen, that is exactly what happened. In a way, bill clinton let him overreach. And he says basically, you want to shut down the government prayed before you take the blame for its. Happens twice the republicans of the blame for it. And sure bill clinton want to be impeached but, it was overreach. It was seen by americans as basically a stupid fight between two baby boomers over stopped. Not over public policy. The reaction of that was hard for Newt Gingrich us, the guy who pushed it down that path. And so by the end of 1998, theres an election, the democrats actually pick up seats, contrary to what you would expect the middle of the second term. Newt gingrich is blamed for this by any of his own party coming as zone problems. And his god that the end of 1998. So for years after the contract with america its all over in that sense. Newt gingrich is sitting down and some district in georgia bill clinton is still the white house ands popularity is going up. Newt gingrich says to somebody, i put in the book, is quoted as saying so bill clinton perjured himself and is in washington white has not done here. What happened. It will that is what happened. Karen so the departure of that, thats within the Republican Party also start to disappear. George w. Bush, in very much an established candidate. His then governor of texas and fellow governors get together and sort of anoint him to go forward. He does not speak in those sort of really harsh terms. He talks about compassionate conservatism. So for a while there does not look like the Republican Party is starting to resemble was recognizable for decades. Absolutely. More than that kind of an updated version of the reagan version of the Republican Party. George w. Bush and like his father, was seen by conservatives as a genuine conservative party he walked the walk better and he talked the talk better. And the conservatives actually believed that he was one of them in the way that they never thought his father was. He seemed more genuinely antiabortion for example. He seemed more any was evangelical. Episcopal. But the evangelical christian. Its and he really was from texas. Not really from connecticut. All of this things kind of spoke to who he really was. The conservative and they embraced him. Interestingly, i think one of the things that i came to appreciate george w. Bush a little bit more in retrospect. He came into office will basically update the conservative. It wasnt just a catchphrase parted it was more than that. It was idea that conservatives need to not be kind of an ivory tower with a bunch of philosophies that they got out of the pages of National Reviews. We need to be connected with people more. The conservatives have lost the weight because the bus to connect with people. So have to worry about what is happening to the poor black kid in Innercity School have conservative answer that. And we needed to update the welfare state without my being so cruel about that we are just going to cut the walls, we have to create work opportunities. There was this idea that conservatives lose them, become a little sterile and was disconnected from people. So george w. Bush comes into office and is controversial because a lot of, some conservatives think too much government power and liberals were very skeptical i think, just an advertisement for him. Smart. And he is moving down this path in 2001 of reforming and updating conservative message. And then 911 happens. And that. Much ended that experiment. Because it becomes completely secondary to a whole new agenda. Karen and what donald trump when referred to as the era of endless wars begins. Gerald its interesting because george w. Bush campaign by saying that we needed pay more attention of what is happening. And less attention and lease did not engage in nationbuilding friend that was a phrase that was used at the time. His mistaken waste of resources. We have our own knitting here to do at home. That is what im going to do. Summa 11 happens. And the conservatives of the route the Republican Party, the repopulating National Security positions in the Bush Administration and by the way who had lost their reason for existence in the soviet union when out of existence. And communism went in and reagan predicted it would. Suddenly had a new reason enemy, islamic extremism, and harris. And they basically sees the levers of powers any ways of the Bush Administration. The push towards war in afghanistan. And that was a consensus four. For more controversy early and fatally for george w. Bush, for the war in iraq which was not necessary. Clearly ill advised. And some think that im sure, who knows if george w. Bush will tell you, he was here, probably something that he wish he didnt get into. Karen so this brings us to the end of the bush presidency, second bush presidency. Into gigantic things happened. One is the biggest economic crisis since the great depression. But all the destruction that brings in peoples lives. And the second is the election. All of the democratic president s, first africanamerican one which has underlying racial tensions in one and has a very vigorous agenda starting with healthcare. So how does that relate set the stage for donald trump. Will the first thing that happens is that republicans nominated in 2008, somebody who they have is a wonderful american and a hero, and all kinds of things but not equipped to handle anything on the crisis that was john mccain. And that 2008 campaign, he does really have an answer to it just happened which is the financial industry meltdown. And the democrats do because this is a crisis like their calls for action. The democrats are ready for that. So barack obama wins. And he sets out to do two things. One is to have a giant hammock rescue the huge stimulus package and the others reform to the healthcare system. It is when things because its absolutely necessary does nothing because democrats have taken control and they been wanting to do this for 40 years in the had the chance to do it. Reform the healthcare system. Excess have to do at the same time. By the way does not deal with the immigration problem because this just more things. All of those things and decisions to make. What it does is it leaves conservatives stuttering at that. Because billions and hundreds of billions of dollars of monies going out the door. Its deficit spending. This all sounds familiar right. Karen is benefiting wall street gerald for the economic crisis. These are all of the things a donald trump right now. By the way. But the democrats are blamed for pulling up the deficit and extending the size and government. In that just makes the conservative republicans crazy. And at the same time, they go one way is what is seen as a giant takeover of the healthcare system. That is conservative stuttering. They lose sight of the fact that a lot of the obama care which became known as, basically embraces the conservative principles. The insurance marketplaces are a conservative idea that the individual mandate that everybody is home way by making sure that they are covered is a conservative idea. These are incorporated into obama care with dell package is seen as a giant government program. For the purposes of story im telling, the main impact and that is it just leaves conservatives by themselves for the cant believe this is what happens happened. So far away from what they thought the country was headed towards in the 90s. In the Newt Gingrich. And this is certainly racial overly to the spring they cannot see barack obama as an entire legitimate person. Basically leaves the congressional leadership set out to more than anything else, just make sure that the bronco form of a messiah president. Ticket so first the president doing what they always do, they nominate the next guy in line, nick romney. Traditional republicans and so any ways. And he also does a little bit of sort of tickling the immigration issue. Somebody taught that he would win in there when he loses, the Republican Party is now known as the autopsy and they have to become a more forward thinking inclusive party. Got up bringing the hispanics. And donald trump is sitting theretrump tower, six days after the election. Filling out the paperwork to trademark the phrase, make America Great again. Very backwards looking. Really looking back at White America essentially. What is he saying that they are not saying. Gerald say have to remember that in the meantime and 20,922,010. Tea party reps. We are tired of the government bailing out guys on wall Street Investment banks and people will overspend on big oversight houses im not getting anything unless my job and my house now getting billed out. Its a genuinely angry populace depressing. But republicans try to harness the power of that without really adapting to it for is in the nominate met romney was a wonderful of a person of Great American but may be leased pickup populace person you can think of to be there in 2012. He tickles the immigration sentiment to some extent. And he loses. And again, the republicans are stuttering that. They thought 2012 was an unwinnable election that barack Obama Shouldve been beaten and he wasnt. And made them crazy. And then the conservatives in the Republican Party, they hit the big fork in the road. Where do we go from here. They said lets go of this direction in the safe we need more inclusive and we need to be friendlier with the hispanics we need give them more votes because the demography of the country is changing. We need to have a more soothing message on immigration and reform. That is the path towards changing our message to adapt. In the trump arrives with you others. And since the exact opposite. He said no that is wrong and we should go this way. We should become not more inclusive or more from anybody immigration we should go back to a more basic almost 1950s style message this is make America Great again. We have to stop immigration. Illegal immigration reduce illegal immigration. And stop trade agreements and we should become and recognize the tea party showed us that there is a populace mode in the country were going to take advantage of it. And the party has that fork in the road between 2012 and 2015. Donald trump is kind of all along that and no one else is going there. We saw what happened. Karen so here we are worried less than two months away from an election. We are in the home stretch. And donald trump is in the white house. Not for one minute of his presidency has he been above 50 percent of approval in the gallup poll. So where are we going. You write volume two. What is it that we should be paying attention to. What is really going to be tested now about trumps the selection freighted. Gerald i think it is hard to know for sure what trump is a mess until you know the outcome of the election is present an obvious answer. If theres former years of donald trump, consolidation of the Republican Party. The tropism is the republican message and a lot of people look at this community for example in traditional conservatives will have to decide where they go. I think the key question right now is whether the democrats have a message the basically is reassuring enough to counter that. The odd thing about donald trump and i dont know if this is specific to him or kind of generically true about where we are right now is that people dont like him, are prepared to vote for him anyway. Both grow up in a time when we tell people that they vote for someone they like. That turns out not to be true donald trump. Some people says only gotta 42 and 43 percent personal Approval Rating freeze we cant possibly win. I dont think this truth i think he can win a blessing than because people dont like him, they dislike the operates, they still will vote for him. Because they like the outcomes. Can the democrats counter that targeted and that is the real question of this. It is hard to analyze because its really not about ideology. The future of the conservative movement that arise much about the book it depends on the outcome of this question. But severally an ideological question. What i find really interesting and write about this in the book. And it is for the wall street journal. Whatever trump needs to be seen, weathers 2020 or 2024, theres a whole new generation of Young Conservatives trying to figure out honey come up with a message. How do you combine the unmistakable populist nationalist urges the country the trump sees and catalyzes honor understood with the more traditional conservative ways of thinking. Basically protect the american institutions in the process of trying to come up with things that for example support and industrial policy. This left the libertarian kind of message that says that government cannot get involve the private sector. And we do want to say and save any fracturing industries and plants in this country go out and have them. Live in a conservative way up with tax credits and the separate so we will acknowledge this that they can be good for been taken away from more traditional kind of straightlaced conservative freighted that is where i think things will probably head in the first trump era. But for not getting the post trump era, there will be only one person the matters and how long that lasts and that will be donald j trump. Karen im just struck by a think trump is such an unconventional candidate that there was this sort of mindset that he took office that in the wake that he campaigns but once he gets into this enormous office and with all the responsibilities that he will have on his shoulders, hes going have to govern like a much more conventional president. Sort of cliche he will have to grow into the office. But he is very much the same person that he was running and 2016. Does that surprise you. Gerald very much so. Ive been wrong about any things about tropism and that was one of them partied he was saved i assumed that he would adjust. Has not freighted hes become even more trump like i would say over time. Hard for the journal not too long ago, that you cannot just put tropism back in the bottle. And it doesnt mean that it will be exactly this way forever but he is change the Republican Party in ways that will be lasting and hes changed the way the people have operate as president freighted desmond the these succeeding presence will be on twitter 4050 times a day. But theres a style of communicating in a kind of atonement that he has created that will not go away overnight. Love them raining, he has turned or bent the presidency to his style more than the other way around. I did not see that coming and im still surprised regularly by how much he does that. And how much people acceptance. I honestly thought people would rebel at the idea that you could have a president who says things the way he does. Then you can have somebody who diminishes the courtesy of president ial statements to the point that he has. Which is to say, he says things were effect not because theyre literally true. I felt that would be so jarring to people they wouldnt acceptance. But a lot of people dont accept it but a lot of people do. And thus not going to just go away overnight. I think theres only one donald j trump. But he has changed the institution in ways i would not have anticipated. Speech of what about some of the norms that we expected of our president. It will presence in the future really release their tax returns are shut down their private businesses when they go in our change those things that we had all assumed it. Gerald i think there is, and for the most part, the Democratic Party think there is a desire to return to some of those norms and to strengthen the institutions and again, some point go away. Tropism has changed some of these patterns, of political of life in america forever. But i think the people both parties quietly worry about institutions. What about the separation of powers. And what about the fbi the National Security council. What about the independence of the agencies like the fda and cdc. I think that quietly some of that will be restored. Because i think that people both parties are comfortable with some of those shattering us of those norms. Below them. I think he will probably have institutions like the state department, more beholden to the president and less independent for a while after this because thats what donald trump is done and that is what a lot of people say they want and we will see how that lasts. I do think that underlying all of this, this kind of level of concern about the stability and future of basic institutions to an extent that i think some of that will probably turn back in the other direction. Karen will jerry, we are out of time. This is been such a fascinating conversation if you have written such a fascinating book. So congratulations. Gerald thank you partied is been an interesting article. So i was glad to have a chance. Thank you for the conversation. We can nights this month, we did your book tv programs is a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan2. This year marks the 20th anniversary of book tvs monthly other program in depth. Tonight highlights from past shows including our interviews with david mccullough, toby foote, tommy morrison, tumble thin cornell west and any others. At eight eastern enjoy book tv this week and every weekend on cspan2. Book tv on cspan2 has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Saturday at 1 00 p. M. Eastern, recent festival of books others sarah, Thomas Merton and others. Reflect on life. And they discuss the jim crow era in the south. And then at 7 45 p. M. , staff writer discusses his book, joe biden, like the run and what matters now. On sunday, at 1 00 p. M. Eastern, the southern festival of books, journalists and meter talks about his book justice. About a civil rights case which helped to reaffirm the right to a trial by jury in most criminal cases. Another is stephanie gordon, and they offer their thoughts on the Investigative Journalism in this democracy. Then at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on afterwards, law professor talks about his book american contagion, epidemics and the law from smallpox to covid19 parties interviewed by Georgetown University law professor. Watch book tv, this weekend on cspan2. We were also joined by cornell west and Simon Schuster and publishing. Remember something that is still something that brings tears tobr my eyes and i hope yu will do it now on the seventh of