Transcripts For CSPAN2 Tim Weiner The Folly And The Glory 20240711

So delighted to be with a retreat for artists on a 400acre estate in new york by providing an opportunity for artists in a supportive environment and its a huge part of the local Cultural Community and worldwide through Cultural Community. For those of you who dont know this the fall benefit is coming up next week so theres a link in the chat box so you can find out more about that. Tonight our guest author is going to be interviewed by Garrett Graff a distinguished magazine journalist and bestselling historian covering politics and is a contributor to wired and the author of multiple books including the Number One National bestseller the only plane in the sky and oral history of 9 11 as well as inside Robert Muellers fbi about the governments cold war escape plan. Hes at memorably did a great interview in february in the manchester when we could do things like that are hopefully will do that again. Im so pleased to welcome tim weiner into the virtual setting. He has got events in vermont for his last four books and we were lucky enough to post them in our store in 2016 with this wonderful Richard Nixon either fade. That was five years ago. He has won the Pulitzer Prize and National Book award for his writing a National Security and intelligence. He covers his cia the worn and stan the conflict in 14 nations for their times. Hes here to talk about his brandnew book gil cisneros. Please join me in welcoming tim weiner an era graph. Thank you everybody. Its the history of the last 75 years of warfare between america and russia and Political Warfare. Clinical warfare is all the means at our nations disposal. Its the full spectrum from diplomacy to Covid Operations from friendly persuasion to sabotage and the story of the book is we won the 20th century and the 21st in a nutshell and you can see the Political Warfare against the american political system and american democracy the american body politic. We are going to see whether they win the next battle on election day. Over to you. Tim its great to have tim talk with you about this and thank you northshire for hosting us tonight. I know that i speak for tim and i say we are sorry we cant be there in person at the Manchester Store or at the saratoga store. It would be a lot more fun to be there in person but im excited to have the chance to talk to tim from the comfort of his home and my home here in burlington vermont and in brooklyn. Tim what are the things i want to start by asking you about and im obligated to start the participants with a course on what it good book this is to have the opportunity to read my endorsement of it is on the back cover so i come into this a fully biased observer that the next one but that part of what surprised me in reading this was how much of the story i didnt actually know. Im someone who would have told you well i have covered these topics for years. That would told you i was wellversed and there were entire chapters of this book that i just knew nothing about. So tim you have written the definitive history of the cia and one of the great histories of the fbi. Youve done tons of National Security reporting on all manner of topics. What made you think there was something more to say about the cold war and russia in the u. S. . Where does this book come from and how did this concept come together in your mind . Garret i came to cia headquarters in 1987 and i called them up and i said hey im going to afghanistan where you guys are running a secret operation shipping hundreds of millions of dollars to the afghan mujahideen warriors who are fighting the red armys come the soviets. I said you guys need country briefings dont you and the Public Information officer at the cia said three months of jihad and i came back with my new beard and i hadnt been back in washington only a day when they phone rang. Tim how are you . Guess who the guy from the cia. How would you like to come in for a briefing now . The said that would be great so off i go to the cia. He was seven miles outside of washington. Through the checkpoint into the beautiful lobby marble soaring atrium. As you walk in and big gold letters is the inscription from the gospel of john that says ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free. So im focused. Go up talk to the four afghan analysts at the cia and they wanted to know one thing for me which was whats it like . They are analyzing the progress of jihads so i look over my right shoulder and the inscription said im going to cover displays and others cover the courts and this is what im going to do. Five years later at the end of the cold war the director said when are you going to declassify or cold war history words and all . The Clandestine Service didnt like that because there were a lot of words. Tim that was on the record. Twelve years have passed since then. And slowly, the classified history of the cia is revealed. Like a glacier. And revealing the rock underneath. And theres a chapter in the book about poland. About ten disastrous operation operations. A Successful Operation three years apart. The Successful Operation, was solidarity support. Crazy movement in poland. This was in the 80s, the solidarity wound up being the domino that overturns the soviet empire. When a nightmare the soviet system was revealed. The 20th century stories in this book that nobody has ever heard of. Not dispute care and trick garrett. Theres a story of the cia support and justice. There is a story of how the United States tried to fight back against the soviet disinformation in the 80s. But this information with the soviets was really the brainchild the head of the k gp. And into the 70s and 80s and then became the leader of the soviet union. This disinformation from the soviets and the russian disinformation. Kgb disinformation the known, undermined americans faith in their National Security institutions. The fbi and the cia and that was number one. Every year that they talk to john kennedy or they killed Martin Luther king, that was kgb disinformation. And the german warfare laboratories, in maryland, millions of people still believe that to this day. And that was kgb disinformation. Both is ahead of russia intelligence and is a strong leader of russia. And theres a Straight Line that runs through the stories at the end of world war ii to today. And the cold war in 20th century in the number was author now. With russia attacking our democracy. That is a whole different story. Garrett . [inaudible]. What struck me was that youve written so much about things that raised a lot of successes and myriad failures. I am not spoiling the thesis of the book called legacy of ashes but your sort of general belief is that there are more failures in the cias book than successes. And i am curious how this project in looking at this 12 years later, would change your perception of the cia and change your belief and how in the role that it played in the cold war in sort of what should we make of the legacy of the cia in this particular time. Tim covert action is a drug for president s and secretaries of defense, secretaries and state. Theyve a problem that they cant solve through diplomacy or through the military, they send in the cia. The cia just got formed in 1947 and they didnt know the first thing about covert action. In the russians, have been at it for centuries. So our lack of knowledge of how to do the sorts of things, and a distaste because of the secrecy of the cia for coordinating things with policymakers and secretaries of state, and secretaries of defense. It led to a series of cascading failures. With the cia had in the 20th century and the cold war the kgb did not was money. Lots and lots and lots of money if i wanted to sway an election, as it did in this very first covert operation ever, still the election in 1948. Suitcases full of cash. It wanted to reverse the results of an election as it did in chile, in 1970, it could create conditions for a coat. In the entire political army, created the rule partly in japan. The 1950s. The liberal critic party which is really more democratic or republican but still is there to the day. And when the cold war ended, the successes through the cia were not only its ability to outspend the cia, there were and we learned that cia learned in the United States is lord through experiences of failure that if he did things on a small scale the butterfly effect is more effective than spending or sending billions of dollars of weapons out. We did that because of that shortterm success. The afghan rebels drove out the soviet army. But they watched weapons without any followthrough the United States. And we have this through al qaeda. And we had a consequence to the afghans. The race problem today garrett, is that Political Warfare. The full spectrum, not just covert operations. Economic support, and intelligence operations, we dont do it anymore. Where after the game. The war on terrorism consumes everything. Counterterrorism is a first and last goal of the cia and the fbi. We took it out of traditional espionage which is really just gathering information need and created the conditions for the russians to launch. Is the political equivalent of 911. The attacks our democracy. Nobody died. American democracy had an unexpected attack from an expected direction. This will be stand today. Garrett so my experience in covering intelligence, sort of one of the other things, while there are two things that stood out to me in your book the sort of ring true to me in covering the intelligence and writing about this National Security. In one is that and maybe this has to do with the money reason that you just mentioned that the u. S. Is generally better and technical collection and Technical Intelligence wizardry. In the soviet union russia is generally better at human operations. The sort of human intelligence. The second thing that really stands out in this book which is something that is always stood up to maine covering russia and the u. S. Is russia has a strategic patients that the u. S. Just sort of number as. Just sort of washed russia ability to carry out operations over decades. The clearest example of that being the Legal Program with the fbi calls operation ghost story. Where you have these deep cover operatives living inside of the United States for decades. That the u. S. Actually watched for decades. And part of what is fastening the purchasing and learning this fall, peter with the fbi agent in the midst of the more thing talk but is more marked this fall about how on 911, he is actually already assigned to one of the surveillance teams tracking the illegals couple in boston when he and operation of these illegals, the they were arrested until 2010. My question i guess for you tim though is, how does the u. S. Learn this like in Political Warfare. It was a democracy just such a different system that sort of we never be able to possess the patients necessary to find out the necessary deceptions. Tim we are an open society not necessarily her strong suit. It is easier for Hostile Intelligence Service like kgb and its successors to penetrate an open society and is been cia penetrated the proposed authoritarian society. The penetration by russia and the soviet intelligence over the american has been deep and longstanding. Going back to the 1930s. They had a United States congressman on the payroll in the 1930s. His name is samuel. He lived in the Lower East Side of manhattan. And you can send the plaza today. This guy was selling the soviet spies of the day fake passports. And Holding Public hearings. Agents of influence. Very specific definition. Someone in a position of power or authority could sway public opinion. Public policy and russias favor. Anything of any others throughout the years. State department, was a soviet spy. Had a spike inside of the Justice Department or an agency, and the registration division. And spies of the treasury and were spies at the state department. And spies of the oss, the wartime intelligence brain they had spies in the 70s and 80s and 90s running soviet counterintelligence at the fbi in the cia. They cleaned our clock. And they distorted americans perceptions of what was going on in russia. You can count the number of successful cia and fbi penetrations right on the soviet russia and presentday russia on two hands. Without the kind of intelligence gathering, we will be surprised. As we were surprised by the russia attack on the 2016 election. And as we will be surprised by what they are going to do to us in the next five weeks. And i want people to read this book to be aware of what Political Warfare is and how it operates to understand a threat to our democracy. Garrett the most stunning chapter in this book which you know i had discussed on multiple occasions is the congo. But you mentioned a few minutes ago. Give us sort of the book talk version of the craziness that unfolded in congo in the middle of the 20th century. Tim in the late 1950s, and early 1960s, nations all of the world, had been captive under colonialism. It shook off their colonial sins. In the largest of these nations, the congo which had control recently by belgium. For 85 years. And selected congo leaders were invited to brussels in the elected prime minister. A priest. In either the americans on huge interest, uranium, the build the atomic arsenal. Gold and diamonds. Strategic metals. And the americans liked them. And with the help of the cia, he was overturned. And later assassinated while in chains by a belgium paratrooper. In his place, was about to pay for cia agent named joseph. Soon proclaimed himself general. An integral. The ruler of the congo rated support for him, cia directs Cash Payments to help them run the government, payoff the leaders who supported him. And was approved personally by president kennedy. And amounted to millions of dollars a year. And approved by president johnston after that and approved by president next nixon after that. Support. It was unpermitted. American support this dictator who became left and brought this country blind, and golden diamonds and natural resources. All extracted industries in the country. A murderous person against communism in africa. Why did americans support this man until he was finally toppled from power. Thirtythree years. Those after the cia helped that power. The cold war was over. The conflict that emerged from the collapse the congo almost went unnoticed in america. Consumed 5 million lives. These are the consequences of pragmatic decisions made by president s in the cold war. When the war in the countries. Suet lets go back to the present day a little bit. Because one of the things that you layout and chapter after chapter and you mentioned a couple of them already. Is the way the u. S. And the cia met hold in other nations elections successfully and unsuccessfully across decades. In the cold war. Yet the number in the book. I think its Something Like hundred and 17 or hundred and 37 electorates. Tim between washington and moscow, there were direct coverts. Election interference in 117 elections in other countries. During second half of the 20th century. Garrett you hear President Trump and secretary of state mike sampaio, sort of writeoff what russia did it to the United States in 2016 as is more of the same. The door to us all the time. We do it to them all of the time. What you think of that is an argument. Does 2016 sent out to you is something that is fundamentally different than the long legacy that you layout here with the intellectiointerference. Tim im doing a podcast based on the book. I talked to a number former cia directors among others. Nan talked with general hayden, cia under president george w. Bush. Former director of National Security before that. He spent his entire department in the National Security world. In general hayden said that for what russia did to us in 2016 and with their continuing to do to us today is the most successful covert operation in the history of modernday intelligence. Panic succeeded in part because Vladimir Putin has donald trump an agent of influence. Trump amplifies russian propaganda. The much everyday read trump distorts american born policy in his favor. He how pals with Vladimir Putin. And there is no secret but the question is why. I mentioned before the american congress, an agent of influence for moscow in the 30s. Donald trump is an agent of influence for the Russian Federation in the white house. In his no secret 90 kisses prudence rang and he echoes his propaganda. The question is why. Not question which is the great question of the 31st century has never been addressed. And never been investigated. The api started an investigation and then it vanished into thin air. It is possible that is going on in the greatest secrecy as we speak but i really doubt it. I think the trump Justice Department strangled in its crib. Put it in the u. S. Postal service sack and threw it in the potomac. Garrett we see the reporting from your old employer about the president s tax returns. Timin the question of these 41,201,000,000 and that the president has coming due over the next four years and without any sense of who owns that. When the people who on that. Tim do you have any theories. Garrett irony piece for wired which is my writing home. Or this two years ago looking at the questions of whether the Trump Organization was effectively a massive Money Laundering scheme for russian wealth. Tim i think youre onto something there. Garrett i have no knowledge of the tax returns beyond which i have read in the New York Times of the last couple of days. That he continues to be a puzzle that the president is sinking an enormous amount of cash into his scottish golf courses that appear to both, cash and doesnt appear to come from anywhere. But or more actually go anywhere. He scottish golf courses continued to lose money read. Tim for 421 million in debt which is coming due in the next couple of years. In most of which trump is personally on the line for. He is personally on the line for raises two questions. To whom is this money owed and how is this money going to be paid back. Who is going to finance trumps debt. You and i think some of our audience today knows a little bit about how security works in the government. Number one reflect for security clients is unexplained debt. Donald trump conducted a security clearance at any government and especially in the american government. Given what we now know about his finances. Its an enormous National Security risk and in a bit self. Who are his creditors. Because landmark boudin knows because he runs an efficient intelligence service. Good deal about trumps finances and the knowledge in a self is compromising information. So we ask yourselves why, we have several theories which i explore in the folly and the glory. One, is a useful idiot. And he does prudence bidding because it is really know what to do. And two, is an agent of influence which is personal theory that i subscribe to. And putin clattered him on the campaign trail. And offered him Political Support including but not limited to cohort Political Support. And landmark boudin gain influence over trump. Trump exchanged his influence in return. Everything was transactional with trump in one way to perform. And then theres the money. Thats. Much its always about the money with trump. If trump is out of office, he loses the invisibility cloak of president ial power. And i we will come to find out the answer as to why he kisses bladder or prudence rang. It is not going to be. Garrett let me ask you a question building off that spring actually harkens back to another one of your books in and then will start to open it up for questions from the audience on the off chance that anyone actually has questions about russia and the u. S. Intelligen intelligence, trump, any of the other headline grabbing topics we mentioned. You wrote a biography and Richard Nixon. Now a lot of lot of sort of the meat of the modern frame of the folly and the glorys donald trump. Im wondering is a historian who taught deeply about these two men, two of the three president s who have i guess four president s who faced impeachment. What stands out to you and patty see the mouse and different and as of the same. Tim there is a line that runs from Richard Nixon to donald trump. And that linus roy combs. John mccarthys counsel during the carthy time. As protective, and it was against stiff competition possibly the most crooked lawyers in the United States for any years. Was utterly immoral and ruthless. And in some of that ruthlessness, into both Richard Nixon and donald trump who he also canceled. For the last decade. Theres a shamelessness in the work of roy combs. And interviews the political lives of both richard accident donald trump. Eight shamelessness and recklessness. Garrett do you see them, will how do you see them as different. Sort of what, which one is way smarter. [applause]. Tim nixon had a much better sense of power. Say which will will about Richard Nixon but he understood american foreignpolicy. In been Vice President for eight years under dwight eisenhower. Possibly the most masterful president in foreignpolicy in the years since world war ii. Had been all over the world. He knew things. Donald trump is Richard Nixon on twitter, minus 50 iq points. Garrett Richard Nixon on twitter would be fascinating. Were happy to pull them out for you. So any one of you who are out there and have a comment, long or short, just let us know in the chat. And we would love to open up this conversation. Kate asked the first question which is effectively told us not only morally bankrupt that has multiple bankruptcy filings himself. How does he continue to funding with or without foreign funding his business adventures . True debt through the skillful manipulation of debt. And with the help which remains mysterious. One of the most suspect banks. Thats all i can tell you about that. Talk to us a little bit about the doctrine and what sort of did you learn about it . The course of this book and what america should know about it. He was a soviet and russian general on the generals staff. And the doctrine in short is that it was crystallized and something he wrote seven years ago. Is that all warfare is based on deception. And all warfare in the future will be decided by information. And by information warfare, weaving propaganda, disinformation, and the control of Cyber Operations that can distort what you, the opponent of russia perceived. The ability of the russian cyber commanders, their trolls , their social media puppets, to get inside the head of the president of the United States and Senior Republicans of congress. And get them to dance to a russian tune. It is one of the most remarkable achievements in the history of intelligence operations. We dont know the half of it. Host what did this book teach you about what u. S. Intelligence stays to be doing better . If you are going to be sitting down with the new cia director or a new director of national intelligence, what advice would you give them out of this book about what we have done well or not well . Speak to the next president of the United States, if there is one, is going to have to pick up the pieces of a large and powerful machine that donald trump has shattered and undermined. And imagine the power of american diplomatic as a big orchestra. A philharmonic or customer where everybody has instruments. There is no sheet music now. The instruments are broken. The next president will have to both conduct or income poser to get the band back together as it were, and conduct it. And make it play in harmony. It is a mammoth task. Host and what do you think, in terms of strategy, what have you lost sort of succeeded at or not succeeded at as you look back over the 75 years of political workfare . Guest would america was able to project its power by representing a democracy, as a far superior form of government. Far superior way of life. And soviet communism which is kind of a nobrainer. It succeeded. One of the great crises of the present day is that we cannot project american democracy. American democracy is in deep, deep trouble. And the authoritarian form of governance of Latimer Putin represents a much more attractive model. In much of europe for example. There are nations, former soviet satellites like poland, hungary, the czech republic, that the United States embraced as a nato military alliance at the end of the 20th century because they look like they were becoming democracies. They are not functioning democracy is right now. And in part that is because we are not of a functioning democracy right now. We have been wounded by russian intelligence operations. And we are rubbing salt in those wounds ourselves. We are doing it to ourselves right now. Host that is one of the things that comes through in the 2016 reporting around what russia accomplished in their attack on the United States. What russias success in the success of the Internet Research agency online, really was exacerbating existing political division. That russia is not really have the ability to inject division but did not already exist. That exploit the themes of western democracy as they already exist. The numberone target of russian Information Operations , or black americans. And by rubbing salt in the wound of american race relations, they sought out to suppress the black vote. Which the Trump Campaign did too. The ability of what the russians were doing it what the Trump Campaign did and is doing today to work in harmony is breathtaking. Host marshall and the chat asks about bill barr. And how he sort of fits into this political mess that we are living through today. Anointed frame that in the context of your answer about roy cohen. Donald trump is sort of repeatedly where is my roy cohen . Jeff sessions was not in his corner in the way he expected the attorney general to be. Bill barr clearly is. Talk to us a little bit about your view of barr and his work in the Justice Department over the last 18 months or so. Bar central role has been to try any race the evidence gathered to the criminal and counterintelligence investigation. To exonerate the guilty, to investigate the investigators, to nullify against trumps like mike flynn. And to avert the administration of justice, to protect a deeply corrupt president. Deeply compromised president. And history will not be kind to william barr. Lest we forget some 30 years ago william barr was in attorney general two. Under president bush the elder. And he managed the criminal convictions in criminal investigations and indictments of the Senior Bush Administration it up including the secretary of defense. On missions pardon desk and christmas 1992 as he was about to leave office and bush pardoned them all. That was the final coverup of the irancontra investigation. And william barr did that. So he knows what he is doing. We have time for one or two more questions into the chat, please do so. One of the questions, that a think a lot of people are struggling with, deborah asked about this in the chat right no now. How do you play chess against someone who has upended strewn the pieces all over. And what i mean is, how does joe biden take on donald trump. What are your sort of thoughts and predictions about the debate tonight, and how do you think biden should tackle debating donald trump. Swishy item that theres much to biden can do at this point. We deep into what the soviet author calls the authoritarian attempt, donald trump has signaled that he will not accept the results of the election. And hell stay in power matter with the voters. Im not sure joe bidens got a trick and his trick bag to deal with that. We are in deep trouble folks. And the only way around that is a massive landslide vote that would prevent trump from claiming he one. Siu went relatedly tim, do you have any thoughts on what you inspect to see from russia over the next five weeks . Guest Intelligence Officers divide what an opponent will do. Divide with a conceit with a try to capabilities and intentions. I dont, im not sure anyone does, note bushs intentions are pretty except they want to create chaos and trump is the chaos candidates. In terms of their capabilities, they can as they have been doing launch attacks against the companies that provide software for election tallies. They can get into Voter Registration rolls and create havoc. They have the capability to bring down the electrical grid of a large city on election night. That would create chaos. And do you think, how strongly do you think rush is tempted to play its hand over the next five weeks . You are talking about a sort of aroma of projects and operations with varying levels of deniability that would provoke presumably varying levels of response. From this president . Who would not even grapple with the fact that russians will pay bounties to kill american soldiers in afghanistan . This president will never Counter Intelligence operations. I think the best way to put it is that chaos is there candidates. Trump is their vehicle. And having pulled off the most successful Political Warfare outbreak since the trojans took in that horse, i would be stoned if they sat on their hands and said let the American People decide. Host kate in the chat asks how did the fbi and the cia get so far behind technologically . Guest you know that answer. At the time of the 911 attacks, and for some time thereafter, fbi agents could not send emails to each other, isnt that right . They cannot download a picture. On their computers. In the late 90s the fbi director called in the head of the systems operation at ibm what could they do about this problem which had been a problem for 20 years. In the guise of the director of the fbi you guys are not on life support, you are dead. All things and gotten marginally better there is a pyramid of paper. As it was at the turn of the 21t century. There is an inherent problem here. Youve written about this brilliantly. If you want to protect information within the american government, you have to go to higher level security. If you want to share information on the fbi, the state department, the cia have to go to a lower level of security. And this is a dilemma. Every level of security that you escalate within your system screws things up. If your goal is to share and coordinate information and operations. And nobody ever saw that. That is the central problem of cybernetics. Sue and let me ask a final question there on, we have seen the u. S. In recent years actually become more aggressive in cyberspace. The u. S. Actually did and President Trump has actually acknowledge this now so they can talk about it. Nsa and the u. S. Cyber commands at the Research Agency over the fall of 2018 to try to protect the Midterm Election and discourage further interference. You think theyre back on it . Guest its reconstituted. Host do you think with a change of the president s that the u. S. Is in a position where it will have turned a corner and how it conducts Political Warfare . Or acknowledges or engages in Political Warfare . Or is this an area that as a democracy that turns over its leadership as regularly as we do with different branches of government pursuing different priorities that we will always be behind in this. This president has broken the machinery of american National Security. The next president if there is one have to rebuild it. And that includes not only competent individuals in charge at the top of the pyramid, but rebuilding faith in those institutions. He is attacked storm troopers, he is attacked diplomats as humans come we are broken. We are a broken country. We are a feeling democracy. Russian intelligence operations have created some of that failure. They are triumphant was to put it agent of influence and agent of chaos in the white house. We cant calibrate how many votes, how many minds, russian disInformation Operations swaye swayed. It did not have to be a lot did it. There certainly contributing factors to the election of donald trump. And that is a tragedy for american democracy. There would be trouble ahead. Tim thanks so much for joining us. It has been a pleasure talking to you tonight. The book, the folly and the glory i highly recommend it. An incredible lesson in history that i said i thought a new and turned out to have been blown away page after page. That reading a purse or tim thank you so much for what you have done throughout your caree career. Most recently to shed the light on some of the most opaque chapters in recent american history. Thank you north shire in manchester and saratoga for hosting us. In helping to put this together tonight. Its been a great conversation tim and i really appreciate the chance of talk to. One final word, thanks to everybody in manchester and saratoga springs. Out there and zoom lens. Youll learn more about this. Ive just started a new podcast that is based on the book but goes be of ambient above and beyond. I have had more fun doing this on the last couple of months. And ive had for a long, long time. Its really worth a listen. And i encourage you it is called whirlwind. Check it out. Theres a link im copying a link in the chat with information on the podcast were in. [inaudible] select think your opportunity and pizza back this is fascinating. We appreciate take the time to be with us tonight. Audiences great to see lucy back for more throughout the rest of the week in the month. For as long as we keep doing this pray thanks everyone have a great night. Appreciate it. Book tv on cspan2s top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Saturday at 1 00 p. M. Eastern from the recent Schomburg Center i festive authors roxanne gaye, Tracy K Smith and mahogany brown on the life and work of the late author and activist author, 2 30 p. M. Author and Princeton University professor on his book again. Then, at 11 00 p. M. Eastern and the essential skill leah, jeffrey sutton, u. S. Court of appeals judge for the sixth circuit and former law clerk to Justice Scalia talked about the Late Supreme Court justices writings. At sunday at 1 00 p. M. Eastern , from the Schomburg Center Literary Festival with wando lloyd and her book coming full circle coming from jim crow to journalism. Recalls her journalism career. 2 00 p. M. 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