Transcripts For CSPAN2 Carl Hoffman Liars Circus 20240712

Book row dwindled until after next three years this grant is the sole survivor now run by thirdgeneration owners. I want to thank all of you for your support. Without oil demand booklovers and authors like carl and steve we wouldnt be here today. So tonight rex had to with us carl hoffman and steve benen for a double book club. Carl is a former contribute editor at wired and National Geographic traveler and is travel on assignment to 80 countries. Picky set author of five books, savage harvest was in your times editors choice, New York Times bestseller, the Washington Post notable book of the year come has been translated into nine languages. The last wild man was a finalist for the Book Competition and edgar award. Lunatic express was named one of the ten best books of the year by the wall street journal. Tonight marks the launch of its latest book, liars circle a strange and terrifying journey into the upsidedown world of trumps maga rallies. Stephen is produced on the Rachel Maddow show, and author of the maddow blog. His articles and updates have appeared in the New York Times, washington monthly, the american prospect, salon. Com and other publications. For its work on the Rachel Maddow show his receipt to make in the awards and has been nominated for three more. Tonight is in it for his new book the imposters. So without further ado please join the marketing steve and carl to the stage. Thank you. I appreciate that. Its great to be. I think this strain for inviting us. Carl, congratulations on a lunch of the book. I i had a chance to read last wk and it coincided with Republican National convention which make for an interesting evening. Watching the convention in reading your book at the same time. One of the things i saw at the convention that i thought dovetailed well with the book was the republicans were acting as if trump was basically the country, that there was no distinction that whats good for the niceties and what is good for the president. If you dont support trump, you are antiamerican. You know, youre a loser. You are either a winner or a loser in trumps world. The rallies, thats really, really apparent when you go from the very first rally i went into in minneapolis in october, i was struck by this whole kind of, i was struck by something i think we saw at the convention this last week, which was just come to surprise me. This idea that trump appeared hes a big man physically, but he appeared big. Is up there on the stage and hes incredibly selfconfident and he looks strong in the kind of sort of third world strongman way, and he grows. The crowd is there, this wild crowd, mom, thats screaming for him and he kind of grows and he gets bigger and bigger. I was shocked by that when i first saw it because you hear about these things but to really see it, and im not on his team that but yet i felt that power. I think over the last three months or so, for five months now in overtime, trump has been on the ropes and hes been in the background. He hasnt had that screaming mob. Hes like a balloon with a big hole in it, lets face it, in that he needs that crowd, the screening people or the error that conflates them, makes an big. Suddenly saw at the convention this sort of reinstallation especially like the last night. So he gets a big, and to his followers, he is the state, for sure. This classic sort of authoritarian rightwing populism. If you oppose him you are a traitor. So all those things come into play in a powerful way and a really visible in the rallies. I think they speak to things tu talk about in your book as well. I was thinking about the timing. During the covid crisis when trump basically had to give up the rallies and he tried to substitute then with the press briefings. There was a point in which almost every weekday or including some weekends trump would go to the Briefing Room comstat behind the podium go ahead. People, there was this line, like the press briefing was the new rally. It really wasnt. It was like he was trying for it but he had his crowd was skeptical journalists. Not the same thing. What inflates trump is thousands of people screaming for him. At a trump rally, there are so many things but there would be a moment of silence and a man, a grown man, burly guy will call out in the middle of that moment, i love you. And you can laugh about it but it speaks to the power that trump has and the love. I was in the parking lot. I spent 52 hours in the parking lot tailgating for the tupelo, mississippi, rally. At one point there was a guy, a crew setting up the fencing everything and this guy in the pickup truck, 60yearold burly guy in a carhart suit sort of drove past and we, us super fancy been out there, suffering in the cold and the win and the rain and we Start Talking to him and he said i wouldnt have believed this if id not heard it with my own ears. He said i love trump so much, i would walk behind in and pick up his poop. We laugh at that, but thats serious here are tens of millions of people who feel that way about trump, and he speaks to them and he articulates, he articulates their distress. Lets pick up on that because when i was reading the book and im hearing and reading about these perspectives and their points of view i feel like there are certain threads that were tied a lot of these people together. For example, conspiracy theories. Theories. The president just this week the dark forces he said are controlling the streets. The president s abrasive conspiracy theories is welldocumented but i think, i felt like there is a mirror image of those conspiracy theories with his followers, the people youre with the rallies. Do you think, is that the tie that binds . Is that one of the main things that draws, but maintains that connection between a follower and the leader . I think i should say, as i said about tupelo, the basis of my book is that i kind of joined the super fans and it ended up hanging out about 170 hours in parking lots with these guys. I was the sixth in line at tupelo, and from then on i was by these with these people. You know, with rick snowden has been more trump rows than anyone in history of the world. Tonight in pennsylvania it is his 68th rally. He was the first in line i think he was second in line with rick frazer who was first, his 23rd rally. Once once i joined these guys, they texted me and save my place in line, i would save theirs. Thats what i i did and thatsl this came about. The thing is that people dont read the news. I mean, i dont know what its hard to pin point chicken and egg, but people live in the subtitle a book is upside down world, and people live in this, you know, in a bubble, in this upside down world in which everything is a Conspiracy Theory and they dont read the news, and they say to you if you say how, where you get your news . They say they do their own investigation, your own research, which is the worst thing in the world because that means theyre getting all the news from social media, facebook, twitter, and a lot of people dont even watch fox news, weather watch one American News now somewhat, and they live in this world in which everything is a conspiracy. Your image of a, trump is mirroring them and they are mirroring him but theyre all in the same upside down world. I mean, and its like that literally and culturally. At a trump rally theres wild music playing, rock n roll, not sappy country music. The biggest song, the song tht gets people going the wildest is the village peoples ymca. Mississippi where there would be thousands of evangelicals, and right before mike pence comes out, literally ymca, people pantomiming the words ymca, ad the next person comes out is mike pence who is adamantly, who says being gay is a sin. Thats this world and its always reinforcing itself. And i think it speaks to what were going to talk about in your book where you talk about this post policy world where policy itself doesnt, there is no policy. Its all a show. And i think i would say to you, is this an outgrowth, is trump a natural outgrowth of this sort of post policy world in which there is no reality, only show . Right. One of the things i want to ask you about is this notion of how do attendees of events, how does this hardcore base come how do they respond to trump standards . Failed in government, and one of other things. My assumption before reading your book that they would deemphasize or reprioritize what it would somehow rationalize and say its the democrats fault or the media fault or whoever. After reading the book into and from what youre saying that some associate theyre not even aware of the failures. Its not almost as if theyre unaware of the failures. They dont think there are failures and they think, i mean, what trump says about his ukraine call is that it was a perfect call and thats what he says over, i dont know if he talks about it now at rallies but in those days, during the impeachment days, just a great example, its a protocol and people think its a perfect call. They think okay, back up a minute. Theres a jumbotron, a giant screen that is set up outside in the parking lot of the rallies. It goes up about, it goes up the day before buddha goes on around seven or 7 30 in the morning of the date of the rally and its on an hourlong loop and it goes and goes and goes. All kinds of all the trump things are said but it was one thing, when big clue word that stood out to me which was Brad Parscale used to be the Campaign Manager saying, the biggest threat to american democracy is the fake news. That is hammered home over and over and over again. We see it in like him saying it or something and quoted in a newspaper, but trumps base numbers in the tens of millions believe that the Washington Post, the New York Times make up the news, that it is fake news and its not true, and that trumps call was perfect and trumps response to the coronavirus was great and competent, and that you know, everything trump does is amazing. Thats what they think. Its one thing to know that in abstract, as a distraction. He says its fake news ended with him because he it. Its another thing to read your book and get into the weeds of their perspective. Its just, at the bubble that seems like its impossible to permeate. At the journalist wants to convey to those attendees whats true, i think thats effectively literally impossible, right . Yes. You cant argue with the Conspiracy Theory. I thought going into this that i would be having these long, substantive conversations with people who were, in hanging out with them for long periods of time. Would be able to have civil, interesting conversations about the merits of a government or small government in the most a sick sense. That was proved to be impossible. I couldnt do that. You cant have a conversation with somebody who believes that Michelle Obama has or Hillary Clinton has, i met this woman in dallas, texas, and i liked her. She seemed very normal and she traveled and worked, travel to india and she seemed like a sophisticated person. I said to her, one thing that really gets me is those conspiracy theories. Im like, i dont know what to do with that. She goes, well, i dont have 99 friends who have committed suicide, do you ask and i was like, wait a minute what are you saying . Then i realize shes talking about like the clintons and hillary i guess, the clintons murdered all these people. She said to me, well, i believe hillary would kill to win, absolutely. That is not fringe. That is a constant, and it goes deep with everyone in the base, and i hate to say it but its true. Its a literal fantasy world. One of the other threads is, they came through to me was the issue of race. I wont read from the book but on page 181 you tell a fascinating anecdote about this farmer, apec on farmer. He he said some pretty disgustig things for anyone reading would be inherently insulted and it got me thinking about whether they consider themselves racist, do they consider trump a racist . Is it trumps racism that helps fuel their affinity for the order they just consider themselves above such ugliness . Racism and religion are huge parts racism, religion our ideas of masculinity i think of the most sort of powerful cultural threads, and racism is everywhere to get permeates everything. I trump rally is all white. The first thing the person will say to you is, i met a lot of nice people and hung out with a lot of people who were very kind to me. If you talk to them the first thing they say is anybody accuses us of being a. Im not a racist. No, we are not racists. And what they mean by that is sort of a kkk racist, somebody was run, at night rider or something. But the idea of systemic racism, they just are not even aware of. The rally is 22,000 people and there might be 200 black people. The campaign will gather them together and put tshirts on them, blacks for trump, and sit and guide the president so the cameras can see them. Everything is a race. Everything is code. Everything is, you know, driving this wage of xenophobia and racism, and they are sort of they dont admit it and they dont want to say it and they dont want to confront it. They dont believe they are racist. They will say why should i be held liable for something that happened to underage years ago . You know, its a crazy world. But lets talk a little bit aboi mean, the imposters. Thats a perfect segue. There is a line in your book that says if theres no truth, how do we discuss and make decisions . I think thats kind of where, well, there are so many places, where these books will he come together. Talk about that a little bit. Its true. I one of the things i die cut in the book is a series of conversations barack obama would have the white house with Congressional Republican leaders on any number of issues. Obama would try and appeal to their intellect and say im going to present you with data and evidence and im going to roll out testimonials from the authorities, experts. The thinking was easy to just get through to republicans on an intellectual level, on a substantive level, that from there you can build some kind of consensus or work out a compromise and govern effectively. But but i make a joke about him bringing facts to of policy fight. Really all those arguments went right over their heads. He was making arguments to them as it remembers of a governing party when they were not. We talk about a group of people who consider the very idea of governing to be unnecessary and something are not prepared to do anyway. They are pundits and they care about ideology and winning elections but they are not interested in governing. I think in all likelihood they do pretty well at the rallies because it sounds to me like from reading a book about the people for trump are part and parcel to the same problem, theyre not necessarily concerned about whats the best way to solve problems. They are interested in glorifying their leader and advancing his partisan political agenda but thats all theyre interested in. At the convention we hear this whole you are saying the gop has abandoned substantive policy, then thats been happening for a long time, and then the convention is launched with no platform. That fits speaking of, that segues into the idea of trump as exactly. The Republican Party started in the 1850s produced the fruit platform in 1856. Every four every four years since then theyve had a policy agenda. They have a superficial way about government and to produce the document that republicans can read and scrutinizing hears of the agenda, you can evaluated on its merits. Except in 2020 for the First Time Since 1856 they said no, we are not going to bother with that. All we care about is glorifying trumpet whatever trump says is, thats our platform. If he changes his mind thats a new platform. I thought they would rehash 2016 platform. This year they didnt even bother and i nearly fell like in some respects they are proving my point. You dont really need a policy because trump is, whatever trump is an says, ease the policy, right . Exactly right. If he changes his mind, thats the policy. And if he decides he doesnt care about governing, then the party doesnt care about governing. In fact, it doesnt. In some respects i thought this was an embarrassment to the Party Organization within. Think about it, this is a party that has this rich tradition of caring about ideas and caring about conservative solutions to problems and they just forfeited all of it. They light the critical on fire and say we will not pretend to be a governing party anymore. I love some of your stories about, sorted your examples. I loved the example of herman cain saying he would allow anything longer than three pages, that if he was elected president he would allow any law, my interest in, in the coy of all or some policy paper longer than three pages, and that such an example of such disdain of the complexity, expertise inherent in governmen government. Right. He was saying that he couldnt be bothered with complexities. Like if anything, i was thinking that in the context of say like a nasa scientist, if you and i were going to be working on a manual for the lunar module, three pages, thats it. Some things are complicated. Healthcare policy is complicated. Immigration, these things take time and get it involves people of goodwill rolling up their sleeves and dig into the weeds and caring about the details are herman cain was one of these folks, the late herman cain, we saying none of that matters. We want something simple, something we can fit on a Bumper Sticker or on a tweet and thats it. The alternative is hard work. Were not interested in hard work because that would require them to take governing seriously, if they dont. Thats a classic example. Im glad that resonated with you. Or recognizing that there is this novel virus out there that could kill you, and herman cain, i mean, i dont want to, you know, but he went to the rally and didnt wear a mask and he is no longer with us. Its just crazy. Its mindboggling. I also like the one about the june 2017 fake signing ceremony about privatizing air traffic control. Is funny, signing ceremony or normal part of governing in a normal administration. Congress passes a bill of significance, the president lines of the pins and they sign the signature and hand them out. Its a think of something president joey doing. The lasso for years that hasnt been in a legislative fake news in large part because republicans are so indifferent towards governing such oil trus to make up his own signing ceremonies. He announces one day that he would come to the white house, a big deal, lot of fun, announced a new transportation policy. Were going to privatize the faa. Congressional leaders all line up behind andy does a signing statement as if he was playing president because, in fact, he was, and so sure enough he goes through the motions and they smile for the cameras. The next day the bill, the policy is effectively gone. Congress has were not privatizing the faa and the whole thing was for nothing. It was all for show because they were just pretend to be governing which is why i call them the imposters. Its all aesthetics in a way, like at a trump rather one of the most Amazing Things is when trump always talks about sort of records into his speech he talks about healthcare and he talks about we will never take away your healthcare, and we will never get rid of the preexisting conditions, when the gop is suing to get rid of the Affordable Care act whose central policy is making sure that preexisting conditions are covered. Right. So on the one hand, its brazenly dishonest. Its hard to say to what degree to understand reality. I dont know if he realizes his administration is begging the Supreme Court to destroy those benefits. But whether he knows it or not thats whats happening. The fact he has this capacity as a light is so brazenly as extraordinary. It ties directly with a piece of my book which is not governance. Global characters being legislated, participate in any meaningful way. They try to sabotage it. When you are in position to do better in 2017 when the control levers of power, the house and the white house, they put together this ridiculous bill that ultimately failed because it was so wildly unpopular and because it ultimately didnt work, it wouldnt have worked. Here we have a party that says theres a deeply concerned about healthcare and they see obamacare as a national scourge of society to get when given an opportunity to do something about it didnt know how. Their governing muscles had asked great to such of what they could pursue their own goals even when put in position for which they could pursue those goals. So lets say trump loses knock on wood and what happens to the gop . How can the gop be anything but, as you say, post policy . Doing this fantasy governing without addressing issues that sort of strike at the very heart of what the gop has proposed for so long . Where can it go . It sorted is painted in a corner he seems to be. I think youre right. They have backed themselves position which i have no policy agenda, no governing priority. I dont even know how they want to pursue any of these ideas in practice. I think about the party is in stennis. In general Political Science tells us parties change when voters tell them they have to. What parties are winning, they have no incentive to change. If winning elections everything is fine but when parties start losing, incentives change. Those of the most of which parties have to take stock and say wait a minute, weve been handed defeat at the ballot box, whatever going to do . My hope and expectation is if trump does poorly in 2020 and i think he will come and his party does poorly in 2020, and i think the will, i think it will be a reckoning moment. It will have to decide what kind of party is going to be, what priorities, what solutions what they try and take seriously . My hope is with defeat comes an opportunity. With defeat comes an opportunity to say okay, being opposed the o policy party is working. We failed in every meaningful way, on every possible issue. Whatever going to do about it . Part of the problem is go ahead. I love your optimism. [laughing] but sometimes i i wonder, you know, its like you being obama talking policy. Its like the things youre talking about just, the root of so much of this is this idea that government is the problem, and government needs to be cut and thats the problem. And yet the thing that makes government work is the thing that they are subverting. I just, i dont know what happens. Heres the thing. Republican opposition to a large federal centralist government is not new. Ragan reagan selected of the government, in his joke about the scariest words being eyed bear from the government, im here to help. So reagan ran against it but yet you look back at the reagan era i still consider 1980s, the Republican Party to be governing body. When a tackle taxi from 1986, republican face and the white house and on capitol hill took the process seriously. They had months of hearings, intense scrutiny that lasted for weeks or months for nearly a year. They took the process seriously because they cared about the details. Despite the fact that it was a conservative party against the governing, or against government. They were more listings to take the process seriously enough to pursue something worthwhile. That was in 1986. They used to be able to and i hope someday they will bring it back when i was in the rallies i had this feeling that you know, like a trumpet rally and everything trumped. Everything, and having read your book, that illuminates all the more this sort of dial, this post policy governing is i had this of the difference between a boxing match and a professional wrestling match. A boxing match, two guys could go at it for 12 rounds and theres no knockouts, no knockdowns, no one trips. Its just someone wins on points and it can be boring to watch whereas a wrestling match, people are jumping off the ropes and hitting each other with folding chairs and thats trumped and the gop right now. And people love it in a way like the rallies and the base and its this fantasy of government. Its not the boring, boring, long fight that where there is no blood andthere is no knockouts. I like your setup a lot because its fake, its scripted, its theatrical. Its intended to be entertaining and for a lot of republicans in the Trump White House and on capitol hill theres a sense that governing isnt fun. That theres nothing to be gained from it. It doesntmake for sexy headlines on fox news. Its unglamorous. Sorry to interrupt but what really surprised me in your book was you saying that a lot of policy staff had been reduced with a great increase in plr. Im glad you mentioned that because one of the pioneers of this in 2009 was a young congressman from indiana, his name was mike pence. Hes now Vice President and i think mike pence is one of these guys who said in 2009 lets not worry so much about hiring staffers who will be working on governing and policymakers. Lets instead hire people who will get us on television and talk radio and prepare talking points and focus on social media. This is a Pivotal Moment for the party. 2009 the party was on a crossroads, they had their hats handed to them in 2006 and id like to think they could be taking stock of what their priorities will be instead of focusing on governing, theyre focusing on media and that helped set the stage for among other things the rise of donald trump because over the course of the obama era the party became less and less engaged on policymaking and they started taking my advice and hiring fewer policymaking staff and more press so it helped open the door for someone like donald trump to take advantage of the dynamic in which they didnt care. So whats chicken and whats a with donald trump . Is he the natural outgrowth of this or you know, if is he just sort of taking advantage of this and you know, hes just trump . From my perspective i think that he is the natural outgrowth of the party that stopped caring about governing in 2009 and hes able to land on for tile soil was from 2009 to 2015 or so the party had given up so completely on the idea that the substance of policymaking matters. Basically saying he wants to be the personification of this idea that governing doesnt matter and details dont matter but what matters is celebrity and what matters is rallies and whats going to be fun and exciting and theatrical so he was able to takeadvantage of this opportunity that the party created for him not knowing he was going to fill that vacuum but by then it was too late. Heand his rallies were taking over the party before the party knew what was going on. One of the things that among so many that just bowled me over at the rallies was the way in which trump first of all wherever he is, like if he was in dallas, there would be 10 crews would be there. Rick perry would be there. That tech process secretary of state and the whole gop texas delegation and then down ballot people would be there. It doesnt matter whether it was kentucky, mississippi, whatever and he would first of all, i was surprised those people would be there and so many of them and then he would take those people in the middle of his speech, he would pause and he would introduce them. And he would introduce them by telling a story, always a story about them and about how he beat them. Like ted cruz, how ted cruz was the debate champion of princeton and harvard. And he, donald was just this workingclass guy from queens. Never been on a debate. He played baseball, he said and yet then he debated ted cruz and crushed him. I mean he humiliated them and in saying hes humiliating him and cruz is literally below donald trump at the time and theres 22,000 people laughing and cheering him and this doesnt done isnt done in a vacuum. I had to sense when were talking about the party as a whole that hes holding these rallies, these rallies are a way of , theyre all about power. And they are this mechanism by which he dangles people in front of the crowd and he says, i can give this to you. I can give you 22,000 people but i can take it away to read this is mine to take away that really reached a crescendo in New Hampshire my last rally in newhampshire when there was so many people. It was this whole court and it had this sort of memory of agencies description of elsa losee and his court and so just trying to think back on the gop as a whole its like hes now kind of wrenching them back into his own sphere of order or into that even more of that place of fantasy and makebelieve. Goahead. Sorry to interrupt, i was fascinated that we have about 15 minutes leftso i wanted to make sure we have time for the audience q a. We have questions from facebook so im going to begin with the first one from sarah on crowd. What will happen to people whose primary loyalty is to a particular person when that person is no longer the leader, do they redirect to a newleader or do they do something else. So in essence what becomes of trump states should biteand win. Ive it gives just like themilliondollar question, i dont know what happens. You got all these people and if trump loses i dont see the right wing ecosphere from fox news to people of bonds you know, those people on twitter are egging them on. I dont see those people saying this is all a conspiracy, i dont see them going away so what happens, i dont know is aprofound question. I agree with that of course. We were talking earlier and sort of teasing about being optimistic. And its hard to be optimistic when we realize we dont know where the results are going to go. Theres no reason to think that there be a need any less conservative. I dont think theyre going to be abandoning the far right ideas that they embraced so enthusiastically in recent years and i think the consequences that is it will be that much more difficult for the party to reform. That much more difficult for the party to move away from its current post policy status more governing structure because they dont have any sense of how to do that. In the absence of their leader so its cause for concern. And theres no, you cant talk about something unless you agree on a standard, a pound is 16 ounces. If we both agree on that but if i think about is 16 ounces and using a pound is28 ounces , what can you do, i dont know. I would say a followup question which is from mitch would be what would happen should trump win and his face basically gets free range to his upper authoritarian influence. I think that is, i wish i had a betteranswer. I wish i had an equally good answer. The problems we see over the last four years from my books perspective is that the party is no longer governing but not taking policymaking seriously, problems that need addressing are being sold so what happens. I think we see the same problem intensified, magnified because its not as if theyre going to look at a victory as an opportunity to reform or see the opposite, we were talking earlier about how parties respond to incentives and i think that point the incentive to change isnt here, it will become worse. It will become moreintense, the same problem times 10. Would you agree . I think trump has a fundamental urge to authoritarianism. He has no, hes not a man who knows history or the constitution or belief in any of those things. Its clear he doesnt. And when you watch him in the rallies, and really thats what my book is all about in the end is this personality, big forceful personality who you have to who has to kill to survive and the biggest most loyal subject is the dead subject. Thats a metaphor. Hes not killing people literally but he has to win. He has to triumph. He cant do anything andwe see that with the post office, with the balance. Hell go he doesnt want to lose its fundamentally like impossible for him to lose. So for four years unleashed, there are no guardrails. I think its a very very frightening place. One quick thought onthat. Trump is preoccupied with the fear of defeat but unlike normal president its not like he wants to go and work on his agenda in his next four years. Like he has this list of things he wants to accomplish or he has these governing goals that hes implementing tohelp the country. Its about him. Is a sociopath. A typical president running for reelection will talk about all the things he or she is eager to do with another four years in power. Were not hearing any of that because donald trump doesnt care. Thats the central thesis behind my book. It illuminates, and everybodyshould read it. Ill tell you the followup question from liz who asked a followup question would be from dana who would say outside of the pandemic, what do you recommend would be the first steps that the Biden Administration takes to address the erosion of government we seen over the past few years. I can answer that. These questions are hard. I think that the first thing that comes to mind is a personnel change. I think right now donald trump has been in a position where he and his team have been able to try and fundamentally change the nature of our federal Government Works byputting in people who are not qualified to be there. In part because of their own professional backgrounds and in part because they dont know what theyre doing and in part because of that they are sycophantic in their affection for trump but theyre not in a position in which theyre going to be able to govern effectively once hes gone, but they govern effectively now so one of bidens challenges will be overhauling all the various federal agencies and governments and departments and cabinet agencies that are responsible for governing and putting people into positions for competent and capable and care about evidence and data because now its not just a question about the individual issues, its going to be the governmental structure that they will be in aposition to deal with those issues so i think that one of the first challenges for a Biden Administration should it exist would be a personnel change. Finding the rightpeople and putting them in the right positions. Ill just say i think it sort of speaks to the earlier question. And this may be a fantasy of my own but the covid is the thing thatundermines from the most because if he couldnt control it, could wish it away. It exposed the smoke and mirrors and this upside down world. I fantasize that the bidens had become elected and democrats take the senate that they would be returning to some covenants which i guess these two that quickly people see that. Things are working, the economy gets better because its being addressed in a competent way so that sort of change the driving alittle bit, i dont know. So a related question from liz who asks the democrats play any role in allowing republicans to abstain from governments, are they advocating power orfighting effectively . I think that democrats are in a difficult position when it comes to republicans because theyre not just offering different answers, theyre asking different kinds ofquestions. Its something i talk a lot about in the book because theres no, carl talked a few minutes ago about how theres no Common Ground to build on so i think that democrats when they sit down at the negotiating table for example, theyre talking right past republicans, who are talking right past them because theyre not speaking the same language. Republicans are not overly concerned about things like data and evidence and expertise and authority as a consequence , i dont know that democrats necessarily are singing around but theyre not necessarily indicate in the way that republicans care about because democrats care about governing and republicans dont disconnect, that asymmetry causes a breakdown and i wish the democrats were in a position where they can do something about that but theyre not. Its not something where democrats and convince republicans to care where they can say years the facts, join us in reality and lets Work Together on these and cooperate on these issues. Democrats are in a position to do that because theyre not governing partyright now. So i love to be able to blame democrats more for this but at this point i dont think theres anything they can do responsibly to kind of bring public republicans back to some kindof normalcy. From my perspective, having hung out and spent a lot of time with people, with trump yens and especially essentially white workingclass, noncollegeeducated workingclass men and women, i think theres a level which the democrats need to talk to them and that biden needs to them in and their anxieties. I think they have genuine anxiety whether there, i think they failed to, i think a lot of white workingclass people have had a lot of privilege in a lot of ways and they taken that privilege granted now its slipping away in a lot of ways. And you know, thats not theirfault. Still, there feelings, their feeling those feelings, their feeling that vertigo and when , they dont feel like anyones really addressing it. And you know, which is ironic in a way because thats another issue and trump rides in and says im going to make the world great again. And im going to make its white again and im going to make it so that you can make a good living with your hands and you dont have to go to college and you dont have to worry about all those Chinese People and smart indonesians and smart brazilians who are working every bit as hard as americans and blah blah blah. They need to somehow address that and i havent really seen thathappen. And that worries me a little bit. So on that note, on a lighter question from all of us witches if we were to take a look separate from parties that actually look at the faces of both the democrats and republicans, what is it that unites them. Carl. Its terrible the way things are right now. The president s book, im trying to be on twitter a lot and im tweeting and some got a marxist sock puppet yesterday. And just the vitriol is intense. And you know, what unites us, we love our children, we love our families. We love sitting around in the evenings with our friends. You have hopes and dreams and aspirations. Ive spent, this is the first book ive ever done that about america and americans. Ive spent my last book, i hung out with nomads in the middle of borneo and before that i spent months living in a10,000 square miles. With former headhunters and you know, the reason i was able to do that is because were all the same. In theend , we have all of these commonalities. And the reason i was able to hang out with the trumpians and we became friends, i enjoyed hanging out with them in a weird way but we couldnt talk about politics and somehow thats the nature of social media and the rightwing ecosphere i think in particular. That has driven this, and it hasnt been helped by russia and all those things. That has driven this way and trump. Trump is the great divider and thats just this whole thing. If he tried to unite everyone he would just collapse. The reality is i think we have everything in common. We have everything we share more in common than not. And its a matter of people refocusing on that. And exhaling a little bit and being able to have conversations and hugging their trumpian neighbors. If you were able to ask 1000 americans whats important to you you see broad consensus. You want affordable healthcare, clean air and clean water and despite all the political divisions we can all want thesame kinds of stuff. They have this great deal in common with people they disagree with what they want the same things. They want to have the same benefits and they disagree on how they get there and it ties back intogovernance and policymaking but i take some comfort in the fact that in terms of priorities theres a lot more that we agree on and we disagree on. Its this Fertile Ground for people and in a way i think thats why biden has a chance and thats why hes doing as well as he is the cause hes kind of just this generic figure in a way or perceived as this kindly, generic figure around which people can kind of rally and hug. In a way, and because everybody wants to, because so many people believe in the same things or value the same things. Unfortunately we only have time for one last question. So again from different data, where do you think america will be in five years . And i only have time for one answer. At the risk of having carl tease me, im an eternal optimist. I am nacve in my optimism and i think in five years my hope is we will be in a better place. Coronavirus hopefully will be a thing of the past id like to think. I think the economy will be stronger than it is now. I want to believe that there will be a window of opportunity for real governance to take place and we will slowly but surelymove in that direction in the five years. Carl, tell me how wrong i am . I dont know, i will say where we are in five years depends on what happens in november. And the two choices represent starkly different paths, i believe. Deeply, starkly different. Thank you both so much for a fantastic conversation. Both of your books are available for sale. Ive dropped a link into the chat for anyone who wants to purchase it. May i say one thing and im always a little embarrassed to say this butby the books. Thats whywere here. Thats why the strand is here and thats how we make our living. Well, its how i make my living. Im not getting paid to do this, its all through selling books so by the book, for your friends and relatives thank you all so much for coming through and the strand and thank you see. Thank you everyone andhave a good night. Tonight mit Research Scientist Daniel Wisner on security and privacy issues with artificial intelligence. The problem is trying to regulate encryption is kind of a quick fix. It might feel good but its not really going to help because the concerted criminal activity is always going to find ways to hide their communication one way or the other and it will just leave all the rest of us in a more vulnerablestate. So im concerned that policymakers really should look at the whole picture and theyre making thischoice. Mit Research Scientist Daniel Wisner tonight at 8 pm eastern. On the commuters. On cspan2. Week not this month were featuring book tv programs is a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan2 and tonight is a look at president ial history. First Susan Eisenhower examined her grandfather Dwight Eisenhowers leadership style and the important decisions he made during his presidency. And former second Lady Lynn Cheney chronicles the leadership of four of the first five president s who hailed from the state of virginia. Washington, jefferson, madison and monroe and later historian aj theycatch the 1948 president ial election. Watch tonight getting pretty easter and enjoyable previously and every weekend on cspan2. Your watching tv on cspan2, every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. Cspan2, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service brought to you today by yourtelevision provider. Tomorrow is election day, stay with us to find out who voters selectively the country in which parties will control congress. Live coverage on Election Night starts at 9 pm eastern continues through washington journal at 7 am eastern. Join the conversation, share your experiences as a result come in here from the candidates. Watch live on cspan2 or