Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hoover Institution Discussion On China 20240712

Since 2016, what Public Policy issues are motivating voters this week and take a look at Political Trends that can give us clues. And we go live now to hear about u. S. Relations with china from assistant secretary of state for east asianing and pacific affairs, david stilwell. The events hosted by the Hoover Institution. Pacific affairs, david r. Stilwell, who is joining us from tokyo today and will address the theme of todays session, covert, coercive and corrupt, counterrerring Chinese Party malign influence in free societies. Following his address, he will engage in a conversation with two leading china scholars, orville shell and arianna movstro. But first, its my pleasure to introduce condoleezza rice. Im delighted to open this session of our project at hoover on chinese sharp power. And i especially want to welcome assistant secretary of state for east asian affairs, david stilwell. This project, i think, is one of the most important that were engaged in because we face an extraordinary challenge can with a rising china. Ever since dunn shoo punning dunn shaw ping brought china out of its isolation and where we recognized the peoples republic of china, where we had come, eventually, to a onechina policy, continuing our obligations to taiwan to help it defend itself, but really with an expectation that with this country of more than a billion people and economic potential that was potentially unknown in the history of the International System, there was really a decision that we needed to integrate china. And that belief, that integration u. S. Narrative, if you integrationist narrative, if you will, really dominated american policy for four decades. There were expectations that this China Integrated into the International System would be a net contributor. As my colleague bob zoellick once called it, a responsible stakeholder. And, indeed, there were some benefits to chinas integration. Of course, 500 Million People were lifted out of poverty. And, of course, china did contribute to International Economic growth. First by being the lowcost provider of labor, but also being a place where people could manufacture, where they could assemble. And so china was a contributor to the International Economy. There were also hopes, though, that over time china would be not just a responsible stakeholder, but a more liberal society. There were those who believed that china might go all the way to democracy. But even those who didnt see that as a possibility believed that the exposure to the International System, the exposure to the outside world would ultimately lead to governments in china that were more tolerant of their own people. That has not happened. And there was always a risk. There was always the risk that by having a closed society with an open International System, that that closed society would eventually take advantage of the openness of that system. For so many years, that system had been dominated by democracies. Not every country was in the International Economy as it emerged after world war ii as a democracy. But the most powerful countries were; the United States, great britain, the countries of europe, japan. And so there was a harmony between the domestic politics and the domestic system and the checks and balances of democracy and the openness of the International System. For the first time, we have a very, very powerful state that has been admitted to that International Economy, to that open system and has remained and even become more authoritarian at home. And so the question before us is how to prevent this authoritarian regime from taking advantage of the benefits of openness and, indeed, taking advantage of those countries that are democratic and open themselves. We have to understand how china is coercing. We have to understand how china is influencing. And we have to understand how china is using the benefits of the International Economy and the open system to increase its military power so that its more assertive role in places like the South China Sea and, indeed, in its aggressive behavior toward taiwan is actually using military power that has benefited from this connection to the open system. This isnt the cold war. The cold war was an ideological struggle between the United States and the soviet union, but the soviet union was a military giant. Chai that is a tech china is a technological giant and well on its way to becoming a military giant as well. And so this is an incredible challenge. It is a challenge though, too, to our values. To be true to those values while not allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of. We do not want a situation in which innocent people, just because they are of asian descent, are somehow held in suspicion whether they are citizens or green cardholders or visitors. We want to remain open to the world and to them, and they do not we do not want them to feel intimidated in any way. We want our universities to be cognizant of what is going on in some of the programs that have been sponsored by china. We want universities to be cognizant of what is going on in our frontier technologies labs and a. I. And quantum computing. We want our universities to be cognizant that there are the those who, under the guise of a fellowship or a ph. D. Program might, in fact, be those who would go back and help the pla to make Chinese Military power even stronger. We want to be cognizant of that. But we also want to remain universities which are open. And we want to influence the next generation of Chinese Students because one day we have to hope that that belief, that integration into the International System, openness to the world will, indeed, have an impact on china too. First, we need to understand what were facing. We need to understand all of the ways that china carries out policies of coercion or influence or increasing its military capability at our expense, using our knowledge. We need to understand the relationship between the communist party, the pla and Research Enterprises in china with whom we would then have relationships. We need to understand, too, our tools for dealing with it. And our tools are many. A free peoples, i believe, free peoples will always triumph. But free peoples have to be cognizant, and they have to be aware of what is going on around them. Now, i want to say one other word about a truth telling, and that is this that when we tell the truth, we are at our strongest. Uma veteran of the old cold war and the soviet union and the marvelous way in which at the end of the cold war it was clear that our values had triumphed. Im often asked about some of the tools that we used in that time. And one that always comes up because people are concerned about chinese influence operations and chinese efforts to cause dissension in our systems, and im always asked, well, what about Radiofree Europe and voice of america which, obviously, had a huge impact on the outcome the of the cold war . And i say the truth about vows vows voice of america and Radiofree Europe is that they told the truth. They told the truth to a population that knew that their government was not telling them the truth. And so we need to use whatever tools we can to let it be known what china is doing, to let it be known in africa, to let it be known in europe, to let it be known to the degree that we can in asia and, certainly, to the degree that we can in china itself. Because ultimately, that is our best tool. Truth telling. Again, i am very excited about this project because i think it does give us a chance to understand what we face and to Design Strategies to deal with it. I want to thank larry and his colleagues in the china sharp power project. Again, i want to welcome Deputy Assistant secretary stilwell, and i want to say to all of you watching out there, this is a battle we have to win. And we will. Thank you very much. It was great to be with you. Thank you so much, secretary rice, for those inspirational remarks. Now its my honor to introduce the assistant secretary of state for east asian and pacific affairses, david r. Stilwell. Before joining the astronaut department in this state department in this increasingly pivotal role, or assistant secretary stilwell had a distinguished 35year career in the United States air force, retiring in 2015 in the rank of Brigadier General as the asia adviser to the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. During his air force career, he served multiple tour thes of duty in japan and korea as a linguist, a Fighter Pilot and a commander and as defense atta i they at the attache at the u. S. Embassy in beijing from 20112013. From 20172019 he served as director of the China Strategic Focus Group at the u. S. Indopacific command in hawaii. In june 2019 he assumed the position of assistant secretary. In addition to his b. S. Degree in history from the air force academy, assistant secretary stilwell also earned a masters degree in Asian Studies and chinese language from the university of hawaii, andawarded in and he was awarded in 2015 the department of Defense Superior Service award. Assistant secretary stillwell, thank you so much stilwell, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, thank you for the introduction and for the opportunity here to explain and elaborate on all were doing here at the state department. Greetings from tokyo. Being in the region is what i do. Im happy to be here and, again, i is a good chance to work with stanford and hoover and asia society, heroes like larry diamond, orville, again, people ive long looked up to and studied and read and benefited from. And also its great to share a stage with secretary condoleezza rice, again, its a real honor to be here. I really appreciate her summary. It tees up what im going to present here well, especially the part about truth telling. You know, one of my goals in this job has been messaging, to tell our story better and to tell the truth. And its ironic, but its actually symptomatic that both the soviet union and chinese have the word truth in them. And yet the opposite is generally true. And so the topic of chinese influence and corrupt, coercive and covert activities is especially meaningful right now. And what youre seeing the administration doing, as i talk about this, hopefully, itll make sense, itll be coherent. So the topic is the fact that the Chinese Communist Party Challenges our free and open society against secular secretary race made that rice, made that point color lu. The prosperity of our friends around the world are at risk, and it hinges on how we meet this challenge. Effort is required not just by policy makers and National Security professionals, but by all elements of society as secretary rice anticipated i would say. And not just in america, but everywhere. Which is, again, part of why were trying to get the word out in other fora. A major worldwide defensive enterprise of this kind is difficult, but its a noble undertaking. The foundation is a Common Threat assessment to the Chinese Communist party is highly capable, ambitious and is also hostile to our basic political principles of democracy, openness and individual dignity. Its important, first of all, that we recognize this challenge. I think were there. The narrative has changed significantly are over the last year. It is, but its also necessary that we give the priority it deserves despite many pressing matters that inevitably demand our attention. So the Trump Administration in 2017 National Security strategy centered on the observation that we are in a geopolitical competition between free and repressive visions of world order. Secretary pompeo said that china is the first challenge he thinks of every day when he wakes up. The Chinese Communist Party Strategy infiltrates targets around the world, which is why its important for all institutions in our society, private and government, to understand the strategy and adapt measures to manage the risk, to counter coercion and to protect free expression. The Hoover Institution has been exemplary in this area including through its 2018 report on chinas influence in american interests, promoting vigilance. So today i would everyone size three points. First, influence and interference operations are fundamental to how the Chinese Communist party engages with the world. And thats with all of us. We might prefer to think of china as is simply a trade partner or the home of great civilizations, but the ccp today has a taken an adversarial stance toward its neighbors. Not just today, its been a longterm process where were recognizing it today. Also this adversarial response touches its neighbors and all other democratic and other societies like the u. S. And the rest of the world. The goals are not stability or live and let live respect for the sovereignty of other lawabiding nations. No, the strategy is aggressive, and its intrusive. It not only rejects our Democratic Political principles, but it sees them as a crime of vulnerability that it can exploit. Chinas role in the world today cannot be understood without a reference of the wide array of malign activities the ccp undertakes to influence our societies in ways that are covert, coercive and corrupting. We borrowed that language from john garre know in australia whos been a leader in the stall january government, has led very well in this endeavor. So i want to give credit to the folks who coined that term. Second, the principal reciprocity is vital to understanding this problem and in countering it. Reciprocity is basic of in or international relations. Youve got to give to get. You send your cup lo mats to my country diplomats to my country, and ill send them to yours. I open my markets and you open your markets as well. Yet for decades we and other countries made exceptions for china, but we allowed the communist party to engage with our societies on a nonreciprocal basis, and beijing exploited the imbalance. And now our insistence on reciprocity a long overdue eventment that was the second point. Third, coordination among allies and partners is imperative. This problem is global. In many ways we is and others around the world are still only waking up to the mass, the scale of this problem. We benefit from sharing information and ideas. Bay young prefers to exploit its side against individual countries in a bilateral fashion. It is often only by acting in concert that other countries can shift the calculus in favor of rest process few, transparency and freedom. And so we must do so. The bilateral aspect is noteworthy in that the narrative out of beijing is often the u. S. Versus china. Weve been working very hard to shift that. Its not just us, its many other likeminded, especially out of the e. U. Of late is impressive. So a lot of this things on the whole hinges on the whole concept of the united [inaudible] the world is increasing hi aware of how the ccp is using it foreign [inaudible] to influence, interfere and coerce. The awareness is disturbing and even shocking for many people because for decades the u. S. And other countries forged links with china based on the optimistic, good faith expectation that showered prosperity and trust would result from our diplomacy, our trade and our investment. It worked so many times in the past. But weve had media with, academic and the people exchanges also falling under that same assumption. But the sad and dangerous reality that the ccp has chosen to weaponize these engagements to its advantage, and it uses them as channels for malign purposes. Again, primarily to maintain its position and to advance its position, to accelerate its growth and development. Beijing officials claim to seek, quote, onewin exchanges winwin exchanges. They claim to practice noninterphoenix in other countries affairs. This is an important point. This insistence onion interference on noninterference is interesting when you see the totality of this activity. And i think we should shine some light on this. In reality, the conduct is systematically predatory and hegemonic. As xi jinping wants control and at least he wants a veto in Public Discourse and political decisions globally world over. So this is what guides its foreign interference activities. Activities that china calls united front work, and we better understand this political warfare. Xi jinping called the united front a magic weapon of the Chinese Communist party and mao saw it the same way. So how does it work . Ill give you a couple visible examples that, again, once we are wake to the problem become unbelievably obvious. The united front interference in australia has produced years of cascading news headlines. An up and coming senator was forced to resign over improper ties to the chinese, beijing donor. Numerous senior officials retired into jobs with entities controlled by beijing. Advertising boycotts wering organized against chineselanguage newspapers that wont tow beijings line. The intelligence chief warned of the catastrophic harm australias subject to as a result of espionage, interference if, sabotage and malicious insider activities. Again, at the university of queensland last year, students demonstrating for hong kongs democratic rights were roughed up be by classmates connected to a beijingsponsored organization. The respond tape yous patriotic behavior at probeijing rallies. Australias defense minister then warned foreign diplomats not to suppress australias free speech. New zealand has had is similar experiences. After University Campuses skirmishesover hong kong [inaudible] praised the antidemocracy brawlers. The response, new zealands Prime Minister asked officials to remind their chinese counterparts that new zealand will uphold and mountain our freedom of expression, and often times its just stand up, recognize the problem, say something. And therell be threats that come from that, but weve seen those threats are very rarely carried out. In 2017 new Zealand Media revealed that a Chinese Foreign member of chineseborn member of parliament had lied about his background when applying for citizenship, concealing he had spent 15 years working for the Chinese Military intelligence. The parliament parliamentarian his seats [inaudible] but remained in the parliament. Coopting friends and neutral using enemies are two sides of the united front coin. In australia and new zealand, scholars have faced burglaries and death threats. In suburbs from New South Wales to new jersey, chinese dissents and activists are hounded by Chinese Communist party agents. United front targets not just people, but also information including private data about large numbers of public and private individuals. In the United States and across the world, we see systematic theft on a huge scale in technology from universities, businesses, medical labs most recently. At the United Nations and in capitols around the world, the ccp agents are behind bribery scandals. Beijings overseas Infrastructure Projects often go hand in hand with bribes for local elites and really harsh financing terms hidden in secret contracts with nondisclosure agreements. Aggressive united front propaganda work honestly portrays dishonestly portrays the relationships. The ccp is increasing its propaganda on television and in newspapers worldwide. While at the same time, undermining independent chineselanguage media wherever it is found. Pop culture, arts and sports are major battlegrounds too. Americans saw the National Basketball association thrown into crisis over a single tweet about hong kong. Players, coaches owners known for strong opinions are cowed into silence when the topic is china. Fan it is are booed from stadiums Holding Signs that say google uighurs. Its amazing we havent seen more about this to daut. Weve seen the conspicuous absence of hollywood movies to por draw the hear rowism of young people of hong kong, the leaders of underground chinese Christian Churches or tibetans trying to preserve their culture. Theres also an increasing number of movies portraying beijing as a benevolent Global Leader even in areas such as space where, in fact, beijing very recklessly carried out a antisatellite missile test back in 2007, littering low orbit with a lot of space junk. So we see the bullying of corporations. Marriott, Mercedes Benz and many more to parrot ccp talking points letses they face lest they face boycotts impacting their bottom line. Longpromised access to the Chinese Market would be cut short, curtailed or not materialize. Meanwhile, West Virginia got covid19 weve got covid19 disinformation, ppe shakedowns globally and [inaudible] all these things that are especially recently telling examples of all the things im describing. So all these manifestations of united front where they subvert interests is and principles that we all cherish, they all reflect the intertwined dangers of this coercive, covert and corrupting influence. And so weve described this of late as an iceberg. What we see of this i call fuzzy panda activity is whats above the water line, but theres so much below the water line that we have either ignored or simply not recognized. So my goal today and all along has been just to point out facts, right . Seek truth through facts. Beijings instruments for exerting this influence are enormous. In recent years xi jinping has added 40,000 [inaudible] making it four times the size of the state departments Foreign Service corps, and that doesnt even count the other parts of the beijing party state that play a role in shaping foreign opinion and foreign governments to beijings liking. These include the central propaganda department, the ministry of state security, the International Liaison department, the political work department, the Central Propaganda Bureau and the peoples think about ration army. These entities in turn guide a plethora of official, quasiofficial and front organizations that operate around the world often and through a diaspora of communities. Some of these united front organizations identify as beijingbacked, but most try to present themselves as grassroots type ngos or cultural exchange, friendship associations. Youll hear that word a lot. When you hear united front, youll hear the word friendship. Then there are Confucius Institutes at colleges and universities, and more disturbing is confucius classrooms at the k2 level. These are funded by k12 level. These are funded by beijing and play by partnership beijings rules. They were launched by no less than the head of the united front department. In 2009 politboro e Standing Committee member and ideologist called Confucius Institutes an important part of the chinese overseas propaganda setup. All told, we face a large and deliberately opaque amount of Chinese Communist party official, agents and cutouts seeking advantage in our society. That advantage is readily had because, again as secretary rice said, we are, we pride ourselves in being open and easily accessible. And so think in terms of this iceberg. Above the water line, official prc diplomats conducting legitimate activities, for example. But below the water line, theres a far larger and murkier mix whose ties to the communist party have been long ignored or understudied. These include prc diplomats conducting activities inconsistent with their diplomatic status such as the espionage dued to the prc consulate in moussen before we houston before we shuttered it this summer. That show academic and free speech in our schools and universities. Also organizations working to coopt state and local governments and other targets. And dont forget Chinas State Owned Enterprises which are just owned on paper but by beijing but can be used by beijing as instruments in this battle of policies and narratives. There are also pla owned enterprises which there are many operating in this country and around the world. Even private chinese firms which just received new guidance from beijing to follow communist party dictates. You saw the plenary wrappedup and i reemphasize these points. This deserves serious study and scrutiny. Across our society we must better track and expose and when necessary counter these vectors of influence and interference. That is why the state department has taken steps recently under the Foreign Missions act to identify organizations operating in the United States under control of the communist party by designating them as Foreign Missions of the peoples republic of china. Its just a fact, its not a judgment. They do work directly for the government therefore they qualify. We have designated 15 propaganda outlets and the Confucius Institute and National Association for chinas peace corps reunification this week a key united front group. Similarly the pentagon this year for the first time identified dozens of bases operating in the United States owned by or affiliated with china. The Justice Department has pursued a long range of actions againstcovert forces and corrupting activity. This includes fraud by pla researchers, economic espionage by corporate executives, Administrative State security agencies and others. Drug trafficking, Money Laundering and more this week the Justice Department charged the individuals with acting as legal agents of beijing tocoerce us residents forcing them to return to beijing against their will. Without greater transparency, reciprocity and cost beijing will continue to exploit our society and advance their interests. Just a little reciprocity and if they treat us that waywere going to have to take some more measures. So lets well for a moment on reciprocity. President trump said repeatedly that reciprocity is his favorite word and mind to reedit it is especially useful concept when applied to china because reciprocity and the lack thereof capture so much about the imbalance relationships that countries found themselves in with beijing. Reciprocity doesnt have to guide our interactions everywhere and always but it is the basic caution that the world generally discarded during the years of reckless engagement with beijing, 40 years of try hard without any real response. Weve allowed the Chinese Communist party to act and never extended to us. Diplomatic access,educational access, trade access, ngo three or four years ago , and investment acts, science and technology access, even data. We thought it was worth it and that it wouldnt cost as much, that it would aid Chinese Development and crucially so did beijings political transformation into a responsible and friendly regime. The result of all this though is quitedifferent. So access to our societies, our economies and technologies help china develop but the Chinese Communist party only double down on mercantilism and hostility. Now we scramble late but not too late to protect our own societies from being transformed by beijing. So reviving this idea of reciprocity is an absolutely fundamental principle. So theres no reason why beijing should be able to enjoy open access to American Society while the folks that i work with in beijing and those of us who been there are prevented from even the simplest interaction with society , travel and many other typical normal diplomaticactivities. Visiting universities is not on two impossible right now and other interactions are very difficult. And even if they dont make us, they dont stop us interacting with people, its just not fair. Theres no reason why beijings media propaganda should be treated as independent journalists while beijing further restricts few americans remaining in china and other independent foreign journalists left there. Theres no reason why beijing state enterprises, military companies and their Technology National champions should enjoy every privilege of the American Economy while beijing denies Market Access to a large share of american firms it certainly doesnt boost, doesnt was Major Enterprises as a share of our military. So in these areas and more we are taking policy, regulatory and Law Enforcement actions against the Us Government to correct years of nonreciprocity in balance and abuse. It works inside the us but to be effective its going to have to be full force. It has an International Aspect thats really important. As secretary pompeo has said encourage every nation to talk by doing what america has done insist on their equal treatment and reciprocity, to insist on transparency,insist on accountability. Among the propaganda narratives promoted by the united front is the notion that any scrutiny of the communist Party Activities is somehow a hostile act of beijing or against the Chinese People. We talked about the parties and either that we dont allow them to all sorts of businesses and organizations know well howto do Risk Management , how to do diligence and how to do understand knowing your client. Its long past due that we start systematically applying similar forces to our engagement with china and the Chinese Communist party. Indeed one reason why is that under xi jinping its been impossible to engage china without interacting with the first countries to studytheir own icebergs, take stock of your own policy toolkits. Examples, do you have the Foreign Mission act as our foreign agentsregistration act. If not, you need them. Its 1991 weve assumed that the threat had decreased but we know now that its not and the threat is there. What about the China Initiative . A source of espionage, theft , corruption and other uses untethered by our Law Enforcement, but investigations and communist Party Operatives so its not confined to us. Australia, weve seen a few years ago their infrastructure islacking in certain key areas. A landmark series of bills and tell the world how to organize again. Prime minister Malcolm Turnbull said we will not our foreign influence, that is a line that separates legitimate influence on foreign interference. Lets coordinate, not only to compare notes also to establish utterance. Despite the magnitude of the challenge, we have massive leverage. The Chinese Communist party what access to what other countries have. Markets, capital, advanced technology, and laboratories. We must no longer give these to beijing even if it helps the peoplerespond in kind. Transparency, reciprocity and accountability will abroad. Treat others as youd like to be treated. Prevent the ccp from continuing to us all our societies. As posture for this challenge its importanto that our coral is not with the Chinese People, which we admire greatly butwith the policies of the Chinese Communist party ,precise language and strategy are vital. The ccp tries to make itself synonymous with the Chinese People but it certainly isnot. Chinese quick criticism with its people. We must be clear in rejecting this and showing that a free and open society of ethnic, cultural and political mercies and just look at the facts, look at how things are inthis country. The free world and china and the differences areglaring. Why is it essential free nations of the world expected iceberg of influence, simply put the politburo that runs china once to set the rules for therest of the world. In essence its a free and open Democratic Society is an inherent threat. So a future pact seneca realized would be aggressive and domineering. Instead ofinternational order, peaceful resolution of disputes, respect for sovereignty and lawabiding nations , a ccp oriented world would require obedience to an unelected click in beijing, technological advances in surveillance and control risk passing the entire world into an age of tyranny. The booksellers of hong kong ask them for proof. Ask his holiness the dalai lama. Ask the widow of leo selby. Ask the uighurs or any neighboringstate with china. The communist party poses a risk to our way of life, to security and liberty. Our task is recognized, alert others and take necessary steps to defend our hard earned freedoms. They must be defended thanks and with that i look forward to conversation. I want to really issue 80 and heartfelt thanks to assistant secretary stillwell. You mentioned the off quoted phrase from Prime Minister turnbull and john garneau, covert force corrupting. I would offer another three seats to characterizeyour remarks. Cogent, comprehensive and compelling. This is i think the best 25 minute characterization of where we are at and where we must go that ive heard and thank you for mentioning mister assistant secretary are Hoover Society report on chinas influence in american interests towards constructive vigilance. This was a report that we produced in collaboration with our next speaker, Orville Schell, the author or director of the center on us china relations at the asia society which isagain the cosponsor of this event. He is the author of 10 books about china including most recently wealth and power, chinas long march to the 21st century. And he organized with me the asia societyHoover Institution working group that produced that report. He will make some observations, perhaps pose a question or two and then we will hear from our newest colleague at stanford university, specializing in china, oriana mastro. He recently joined stanford as the center fellow at the Freeman Institute for International Studies where her research focuses on Chinese Military and Security Policy , asiapacific security issues, war termination and coercive diplomacy. Doctor mastro is also a fellow at the American Enterprise institute and serves in the United States air force reserve for which she works as a strategic planner at click on so were doublingdown on the us air force today , very proudly. Orville, we turn to you first. Thank you larry and you for your very comprehensive speech assistant secretary stillwell. I really dont want to make lengthy remarks myself except to say i do believe we are something of a transition moment. When all of the assumptions and policies of the past bag reflection andreformulation. I think we are truly beginning to seechina in a very different light. Partially because it has become stronger and more influential. Let me ask you this. Youve just been on a rather epic trip thats taken the secretary of state to the maldives, to india, sri lanka, vietnam and now you yourself are in tokyo andi wonder , you paint a dark picture about what it is that we confront and not just militarily, not just in terms of trade but in terms of this united front policy and influence seeking. How have you found these countries youve just visited in terms of the way they are reappraising their own attitudes towards china and what do you think that bears sort of this idea of the claw in which started off as just an idea but now it seems to be getting fleshed out with some more real substance so talk about your trip and how its changed your view of what partners, allies and friendsof how theyre looking at the peoples republic of china. Thats a great point. Advertising one of myfavorite books, i know itsone of the early ones but i still reference it. A lot of whats in there is cogent today. So travel, the best part of diplomacy i think is going to seepeople where they are. I was in japan three weeks ago during the quat and i got to witness the merging of an agreement on the issue and not just the issue itself, but the solution and test the coming together, i mentioned this position of beijing that says this is the us hostile policy, trying to make this bilateral and the recent travel statement and the stops that youdescribe, increasingly align. And this helps the message and it helps beijing understand it at least that it needs to changecourse. It needs to simplycomply with the system that exists. Its a functioning system. Its existed andfunctioned for 70 years quite well. Yes, it wants to change the system to accommodate its own perspective on theworld. But i do think there is multiple voices, theres a chorus of voices and theres an opportunity to simply get the ccp to slow down. And to again, abide by the rules. Over the years andconvinced us it was going to do. Was the hard part , that what it was saying wasnt quite right, that there was deception. Ill address your question specifically in one second but ill point out one of the issues, one of the areas weve been focusing on his warrior diplomacy, same thing. If you take a hard look at anything theysay , its just a model of disinformation. I use the term interference, you juxtapose that with the theme that we keep hearing is noninterference in internal affairs and you look at the facts in australia again, turnbull and garneau were the first actually to shine some sunlight on that area look at the reality of it and theres already this now propaganda disinformation aspect to it when if you just consider whats being said and think about it , use critical thought and apply free thought, things that we pride ourselves in, the disinformation becomes very visible. As far as the trip, represents quite well that what we mean the Indo Pacific Strategy inthe past , i do want overstated, i dont want to offend anybody but the eap responsibility and the southcentral asia responsibility approach didnt always align. So i hired my deputy, hes a southcentral asia expert and one of my goals and one of the things she took out of this trip is this trip exemplifies what we mean by the Indo Pacific Strategy. It is a coherent whole and this is why we change thename in 2017. So they are still of varying strength, the narrative coming out of india, sri lanka, indonesia and vietnam arent all the same. The volume isnt all the same and thats expected and i think you can attributethat to sheer size and have to. Some like the us and australia, they can afford economically to hand up and be counted. We believe this gives space to countries like indonesia and vietnam who with the july change in the us south china policy acknowledging 2016 tribunal outcomes and debunking Chinese Maritime claims in indonesia, insert their proper use of Economic Times and sorry for the wondering response and ill be happy to be crossexamined on. I will note that it is for 50 in the morning. 18 seconds on the trendline that you discern having been to all of these countries, what direction are they heading. I believe given all that wejust laid out i think that trend is very positive. But i dont expect them to do everything that they can in many cases. But this simply being transparent about what is going on in theircountries, by simply examining whats going on. In the past they were deterred from doing that. Just dont look there. The one thing we have to address further and this is the idea of sunlight is going afterthe corrupting aspect of the strategy. Because if youbuy off the elites , and the people dont have visibility on that or if theyre being told they cant comment on that , he strategy them by the united frontworks. It depends entirely upon coopting leadership and so part of this and the reason we focus on media so much is enabling and empoweringmedia to research and investigate. Id like to come now to doctor oriana skylermastro and we welcome your questions for the assistant secretary. I apologize to the viewers for my romantic lighting over here. I think secretary stillwell is up little bit earlier than i am, i am in Sydney Australia and unfortunately in an apartment where natural light, we dont have the whole son yet but hopefully you can see me. Assistant secretary its great to see you and have you here at hoover. I wanted to ask you a bit about how to decipher or differentiate between legitimate, illegitimate activities and in some cases you didnt use these terms but people often use inappropriate and appropriate. Though given obviously im here but given my military background i feel like i am much more clear eyed about some of the threats that you have mentioned and i am happy that you have discussed them and i think at the University Setting in particular it can be a bit of nacvetc about what the goals are of some of these engagement efforts. Though i really applaud the desire to bring the truth and to bring that knowledge more broadly. Given that youre a china specialist, what i wanted to sort of ask you is to put on the china hat. One of my main concerns is how acceptable or open other countries are to this narrative that youre presenting so sort of two specific questions you the first is this legitimate, illegitimate, appropriate inappropriate, we think its clear from our perspective but i wonder for some of our viewers its less clear why voice of america is okay and you know, the insert to the Washington Post or something would not be okay for the difference between Confucius Institute and Alliance Front for example. You mentioned theres a difference between covert activities so im wondering if like a pla scholar they put on their application for these applications that they were pla, then are we open to that becoming because to a certain degree even i when i go to china gain information and then want to bring it back to the betterment of my country so where do we draw the line on some of these things and i wonder if you put on your china hat what would they say if you did that and i can imagine some of the counters and things like the United States has tried 74 times between 1947 and 1991. Is it more military interference worth some of these political interference and isnt what theyre doing just basically politics to a certain degree . Im wondering if you can specify a bit more on of course chinas going to be a big influence but how are they going to seek influence and what would you want to see them do . Along those lines you mentioned reciprocity and as you know theres no chinese word for reciprocity. But the chinese word theyuse is mutual benefit. So how do you think some of the different views about reciprocity might actually impact our ability to get that. Thats different than to get the same thing and get the same thing should we continue to scale it based on what china can give us and so ill leave it there. And i look forward to your thoughts. Weve wrestled with those quite a bit. Exactly whats appropriate and whats not, and i dont think i can give you a yardstick for what that looks like but i would say in going back to the idea of reciprocity is that if youre going to do these things in my country, i should be able to do those in yours. They will always take, when i confronted them about when i was in attachc i could not call my counterpart. I cannot tell my counterpart directly while the chinese attachc in the us had every phone number in dod and set up meetings on a regular basis and i asked them why is it i cant do that and his answer was a smug because thats not oursystem. So your point is exactly right , it is a bit of apples and oranges. Their system is different, there culture is different but we interact with 190 something other countries on thisplanet without the same , there are ways of coming to agreement on these things. That gets us the balance and the relationship that we seek. I dont think anybody would argue the relationship between china and the rest of the world is imbalanced. The diplomatic order in beijing agreed its very difficult to operate and it was getting more and more difficult to operate their impaired what they were giving their chinese counterparts in those specific countries. So theres a couple of examples that we gave you you mentioned the military. This is an area where transparency and greater interaction is increasingly necessary. And yet what were seeing here is the ability to excommunicate with the Chinese Government is getting more difficult. And so its not just nice to have this interaction, this reciprocal access is incredibly and increasingly important to make sure that the messages are crystalclear that there are no on misunderstandings and miscalculations that we often talk about soin the military space , they call the relationship balanced, i really hope that we can act on that and instead of closing down, they act more openly. There are many other aspects i can talk about but since were speaking in academia here also note that i think its more difficult for academics in schools to insist on reciprocity since you dont often go to china to talk to their students dollars although i know you do but its not so formal. And i would simply walk look at the example they set in the country and either ask them to abide by those same rules in the us or insist on opening up access there. Theres a few folks that came out to the center when i was living in hawaii who in 2015 16 were noting the impressive and rapid clampdown on conversations inside china. And then he quickly saw that clampdown happening outside where conversations were being squashed because they might be uncomfortable. Id be talking about the Dalai Lamaand other things they dont like. On that i would just say the oer, universities can insist on Academic Freedom and academic integrity, insist on it. Remember Cambridge University press couple of years ago took down 250 articles deemed inappropriate and then they reversed thatdecision which was encouraging. You have to think about those things. But would you like toredirect or crossexamine . No sir, im good. I think theres a lot of work to be done to understand the details of these activities and youre right. What they do at the university is different versus the government was different in media versus ngos so we need to figure out how to prioritize what are the most dangerous activities and which ones we should address first, last and how we shouldaddress them. I like to call on my colleague in the china global shark power project at the Hoover Institution who also mister assistant secretary just cohabited a very important study, global engagements, rethinking risk in the Research Enterprise which very much addresses the challenge you post of pla scientists, engineers and so on at the socalled seven sons of National Defense universities. Not disclosing their ties and then coming here and collaborating on Research Projects and being visiting scholars. Sodoctor glenn clifford, would you like to pose a question . Thank you very much and thank you assistant secretary stillwell. I wanted to pull together a couple friends that others raised and not talk specifically about the academic issue about Security Cooperation and broader alignments. We are starting to see greater coordination and alignment against democracies in the indo pacific as they face the challenges posed by chinas more assertive properties. Secretaries pompeo and esper concluded meetings in india that resulted in the rebecca agreement and india invited to join its exercises this year. The reinvigorated quad imposed of japan in the australia and the us is one of the most promising platforms for a collective multilateral response to china but opinions differ on how its constituent members are willing to take. In light of the United States National Security strategy, could you articulate the vision that the unitedstates has for what the quad accomplish and how youd like to see it develop . Thats a great question and since you mentioned National Security strategy, im a simple guy, i was a Forklift Operator and i do know that eating too complex and complicated makes prickly just defeats whatever you try to accomplish so lets just go in simple terms. The National Security strategy hr mcmaster, theres a good story in their floated this is a strategic competition. Weve never had that before. The first step in any problem is acknowledging that there is a problem so by noting strategic competition, we then give latitude and voice to people in the country to actually stand up and compete. What you saw then from the prc was a very shrill the sky is falling kind of hostile american policy and i just remind them whatever i can internally they refer to the us and others as the enemy and they always done that consistently. So i guess the first step in all of this is just acknowledging the problem and making your words align the reality. Euphemisms dont help when you speak clearly and again, these are Simple Solutions to a larger problem. Relating the nfs and the competitionaspect to the clock quad again , or a one bit processor they are selfevident. I dont have to restate how many times in my short interaction with india since i started the pentagon 2013 till now that youve seen a very confrontational relationship in an area of a continuous order and that relationship impacts chinese Pakistan Cooperation also, puts india on notice. I would note in the quad that it is not one, not directed by the us. It really is a four point consensus based and sort of naturally occurring outcome of democracies who see the threat and want to stand up to thatthreat. And in my past experience, the less often, one person said when we show up at southeast asia, we dont make problemsbetter or worse, we just add energy to the issues. I think weve gotten better at maybe showing up and listening more rather than just showing up in the room with three other partners in the quad and dictating terms and if you saw the Opening Statements from the quad in tokyo three weeks ago, you heard the same story from all four partners is that we want to acknowledge the issue, the problem and then we want to protect our owninterests, we want to protect our own systems. We dont want to have our systems adapted or amended or just outright changed by an authoritarian government so in short, what ill say is the quad is obviously visible. Its increasingly productive. But its organic, its naturally occurring. Its just an obvious response to a rapidly accelerating and aggressive prc strategy. Well, we have only about 10 or so minutes left. Mister assistant secretary, id like to get to a coupleof audience questions at least. Let me begin by taking off on india. This was the first stop of secretary pompeos fiveday visit toasia. I dont know if you were with him on that leg. We did sign a new basic exchange and Cooperation Agreement with india. Ties between india and the us with concern about china seemed to be deepening. There was a question about that agreement. Its got some implications for air force to air force cooperation so you might have thought about that. Is there anything more you want to say about that visit, that agreement and that relationship . As you know, i was there. It wasnt a great trip. I had my own meetings with china watchers in india and delhi, new delhi so i cant speak to the exact outcomes of the 2 2 conversation but the fact that we had that conversation and the fact that there were tangible outcomes to me speaks volumes. And i think thats all i can talk about, i cant talk about the details on information sharing that i would note that as oriana knows that you need systems that can talk to each other in this age, even if youre doing something as evil as humanitarian relief, disaster assistance. In an information age, military cooperation happens by information so the more we can move things like information agreements and all those, the better off we will beable to respond. Great and as i mentioned we just finished six sessions focusing on taiwan and the indo pacific region. The lengthening shadow of the communist Chinese Party state and its oft declared ambition in its words to reunify taiwan with the motherland, taiwan of course and its friends have a different view about that language and relationship. Hands like a dark shadow over all our conversationsnow. What can you say about the challenge of preserving taiwans democracy and its right to be a free society in the wake of this seemingly accentuating result in beijing to possibly you know, address this situation by means that are covert, coercive and corrupting or just plain coercive . What assurances would you want to give to the people of taiwan and its friends and how do you see that challenge in the wake of what beijing has done to the people of hong kong . We could probably talk for hours. That should be a topic for the next event. Its a really important subject. I give a speech, by the way most of this stuff i do, almost always other than this talking thats done by other smarter people than me so i always want to give credit to the suggestions of others in this world but theres a speech this time last year on four years of trying, 40 years of giving a little bit to the prc in exchange for consideration on issues that we consider important. And the realization after 40 years that they never intended to give back. You saw this summer i gave a presentation to another think tank on the sixth assurances that were recently declassified and the reason were doing this is to go back to the original agreements of 1979 and 1982 where we did agree with the prc that we would recognize them on a one china policy but the question of china want taiwan but would be resolved peacefully without coercion or threat or use of force and what weve seen over time and there was another document declassified august 17, 1982 where the Reagan Administration noted that although we want to trust the prc we should trust but verify famously and that if arms numbers on the weapon sales would go down at the opposite would happen, therefore there was an acknowledgment that we might have to continue arms sales to make sure that the balance across the street is taiwan the ability to negotiate without coercion or use of force. But it happened over the years, look at wha recently will help assemble where taiwan was able to participate through 2017 and it was excluded again this session, even though they got lotsand lots to offer. We are, our policy has changed, were just going to insist on it by allowing it to be whittled away and eroded. And again, youll hear beijing gets very uncomfortable with this area i will just reassure that there is no intention to somehow expand. We just want to get back to a place where taiwan can deal with the mainland from a position of, so it can negotiate these solutions instead ofhaving it dictated to them. Weve got just a few minutes left and i want to ask Orville Schell and oriana if they have any brief additional questions. Maybe ill give you each a minute and the final words will goto the assistant secretary. Im curious to know how you look back on the period of engagement. Was it a mistake . Were we diluted . Were we just on a prized of chinas intentions or was it a smart move to try to shepherd china out of its revolutionary past and what part of engagement should we still cling to even in this period of adversity. That is the question and that speech last week, four years of trying and nowhere in their yearly gridlock criticized the last40 years. We had to try. It had worked in the past and weve seen peaceful transitions that i look at the republic of korea. This activity, this engagement korea out of their 1980 dictatorship and it moved it into a strong vibrant democracy so you have to try but there is a point where you have to knowledge and i came to this conclusion in 2011 i showed up in beijing not going the right way. We should be very proud of the patients we demonstrated, but we should also be insistent on making sure that china lives up to its agreements. And its not doing so we have to go to a more firmstance. I think ill leave it at that. We definitely have to try and we just going to take a more firm line now. Oriana. Thank you and now were in competition with china and im very happy to see that kind of formulation as you know, china is has been competing with ussince its founding so we kind of woken up to that. I wont ask you what victory looks like because i think this is a longterm potential he thought of perpetuating state but i often say what does way look like . How do we know we are out competing china or that we are doing well and what are some of the areas or indicators that youre looking to . That for you are the most important but you will be the most proud of. If we actually reach certain goals. Is like a plan, thats my getting allstate, this would be my closing point. Whatis victory look like . I would refer you to the secretarys speech at the Nixon Library that gets you much of the point and he said far better than idid. I would point to the secretaries very vigorous approach to speaking out. Thats victory, the fact that people not just the us anymore and not just secretary pompeo, people globally are eating out. But chechnya trip to taiwan, 90 number delegation without fear of their reprisals come from that. Thats victory. The germans inviting taiwan, the wto, sorry, the world bank taking a harder look at chinese owned enterprises and whether or not they should be included in the contracts. China communication, Construction Company and others that we briefly did in the middle east. All these things are victories. Call me pollyanna. Today im overly optimistic or maybe im too close to the subject cause we are right here. But my assessment is that we are on the way to an accommodation, some sort of a balance between a free and open democratic world and a system in the prc that doesnt appreciate that but the longer these two systems are in competition, the more obvious the right answer will be, the same after we came to in 1991. Im hopeful like we mentioned before that for years of engagement might actually help this system more into something thats less confrontational and something that appreciates fair trade and free accessand real competition. I think we can get there. Im hopeful that we can and then ill point to this forum where its not just ap, secretary pompeo. Its many many us and global organizations that are finally joining the prc that they need to adapt and change and accommodate our real interests and concerns. We are well on our way but i give credit to that and for stanford kruger and all of you for doing that, for being strong partners. Thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to working with you even more. I thank you assistant secretary stillwell once again for these cogent and compelling remarks. Where just a few days away from the most sacred exercise in any democracy which is the national election. And whether we have another second trumpet administration or a return and rotation of power, either way i hope that the important innovations and really i think historic steps towards a Us China Relationship based on principles of cognizance as you said, constructed vigilance and reciprocity will end or as Guiding Principles in American Foreign policy. Id like to thank you for your remarks today. Thank secretary pompeo blending you to us for this hour and 15 minutes area our audience and cspan for joining us and shell and oriana for their remarks. Thank the center for us china relations and our staff at the Hoover Institution. And i wish you all a good weekend and assistant secretary stillwell, a safe return to the United States. Thank you all so much area. Four days until the election and president trumps third and final Campaign Stop today. As rally in rochester minnesota. The campaign is calling it a peaceful protest due to state restrictions on the number of people allowed at the event which will be limited to 250. Whats that live at 6 40 5 pm eastern here on cspan2, online at cspan. Org or listen on the free cspan radio app. With four days left until election day on november 3 when Voters Decide who will control congress and occupy the White Housenext year , stay with cspan. What campaign 20 20 coverage every day on cspan, stream or ondemand at cspan. Org or listen on the cspan radio app. Your placefor an unfiltered view of politics. Tonight on book tv conversations about politics starting at 8 pm eastern pulitzer prizewinning Journalist Bob Woodward discusses president Trumps National and Foreign Policy decisions and at night Heritage Foundation your fellow Mike Gonzalez argues identity politics is dividing america. Thats followed by msnbc political analyst marlena maxwell who offers her thoughts on identity politics and how to create a more inclusive democratic party. That starts at 8 pm eastern. Enjoy book tv every weekend on cspan2. Youre watching cspan2, your unfiltered view of government created by Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you by yourtelevision providers. More now and next weeks election from the Bipartisan Policy Center with a look at the voting process and what to anticipate when the Election Results start coming in next tuesday. This is an hour. Were days away and theres a lot of information out there. There are three things you need to know from the Bipartisan Policy Centerone, there will be a surge in voting by mail which is safe and secure. And to, you likely wont know the one on Election Night and it will take longer to count all the ballots and report the results andfinally , your usual polling site might be different to keep you and pull workers safe. Check out can ivote. Org if youre not sure where to go. By planning ahead and knowing what to ngexpect you can make sure yourvoice is heard at the ballot box