Alexander vindman, historian and journalist, max. Our conversation about the price paid by a military man in the era of trump. Our program tonight is recorded by cspan, who we welcome to our zoom room. This was created as a tuesday night for democracy and justice and community kids. Started after President Trumps first muslim man we found to be a. In violation of our understanding of american democracy to our jewish values. Established by david for decades ago, a vehicle to fight for civil discord and protection of our democratic ideals. Its a Great Partnership thats been able to bring 27 outstanding programs. We are all volunteering our time and appreciate our audience support in expressing of appreciation. Kelly, rabbi and david, the Leadership Team of united for democracy thank you to our many wonderful cosponsors, israel of hollywood, center for justice and Holocaust Museum l. A. A reminder next week, obama advisor, i standing david at her later time wednesday 5 00 p. M. November 2, 5 00 p. M. To 7 00 p. M. , an Amazing Program six brilliant panelists. We will have three separate days to understand whats happening in the election. Want to conclude my welcoming remarks for the comments from our guest tonight. We no doubt, many others in this town hall tonight spend our early lives fighting for the soviet union. Throughout the 1960s and 70 70s, is a National Leader in the latter half of the 70s, i led las efforts. In addition to our political advocacy we traveled to the soviet union and bring back the stories in the movement. It gives us these incredible man born in the soviet union and families will able to emigrate in this movement. We are so grateful to have you here tonight. Please welcome, community advocates, david, a great leader and great partner and a great friend. Thank you. Behalf of the unit, id like to welcome you all once again to the virtual town hall, nearly 5500 registered. Our audience is not bridging from last night the program to chandler, arizona, and mexico vancouver to hawaii. Really, theres a desire for an analysis honest discussion and it is worldwide. Tonight, your offering world class analyst and then some. Special guests stanza todays americans hero. Hes one of the few individuals in the National Exhibiting courage and wrongdoing. They hit when confronted by trumps bullying in his though they had little to lose. They bravely spoke up when witnessing wrongdoing, knowing full well his career was jeopardized. He took a stand when others did nothing though they knew. The consequences of their in action for our nation. Youre about to hear from a man who did the right thing at the right time and for all the right reasons. He made his third appearance in our series, a respected historian, bestselling author and Foreign Policy analyst. Hes one of the worlds leading authorities. The senior fellow relations, calmness for Washington Post and analyst for cnn. Fred and guest speaker, alex vindman to discuss the era of trump. Thank you i echo everything you said about him being a hero. Alex was born in 1975 in ukrai ukraine, he and his family came here in 1979 and grew up in new york city. He subsequently served in a variety of ways. He was deployed to iraq and in 2004 he earned a purple heart. Then in 2008, he moved from infantry to become an officer specializing in former soviet union and eastern europe. He spent time there and got a ma from harvard and he was an assistant army in moscow in 201. Then i was a political military advisor on the chairman of the joint chiefs and in 2018, he was assigned to the National Security council Eastern EuropeanRussian Affairs but of course, this is where he achieved worldwide fame. It was almost a year ago on november 19 last year alex testified before the senate, before the House Intelligence Committee about what transpired a phone call between President Trump and president zelensky of ukraine. As alex testified when he first heard that, is listening and that it was deeply troubling what was happening. He reported to his chain of command and when he came to testify, he testified truthfully and honestly but a great personal risk to himself and my first question to you, did you have any idea what would happen when you first referred your concerns about this up the chain of command . Did you hesitate . You must have realized we were going against the most powerful men in the country, commanderinchief. He be the unhappy about your testimony, theres a lot of military officers who would choose to stay out of the line of fire but you advanced to the end of the gun. Was it a hard decision for you . Thank you for being part of this discussion and i am privileged to have you as my interviewer thank you for hosting me, a unique opportunity to join this group, its an opportunity to share a little bit about what transpired. The answer, id say i have little to no concern in my initial report to the proper authorities in the National Security council, you have to understand from my perspective, ive been watching this slow moving car crash for several months. It became clear there was oddities as early as march when the former mayor of new york city started to advance a narrative about ukrainian interference and corruption on the part of the exceptional ambassador and that continued to devolve over the subsequent months all the way through president zelensky and his election the jury, inauguration i attended in that timeframe, all the way through and started to come to a head early june, two weeks before when the National Security advisor came through and offered this quid pro quo transaction and a lot of people dont necessarily number, it was obviously troubling in this case, i tried to dissociate may be because of my military training in high regard to the presidency, trying to dissociate the fact that the president is personally involved but it was apparent in the july 25 so nobody is above the law in the u. S. I shared my concerns in the hope that the proper authorities could write the ship and get us back on course and ultimately, with regards to their testimonies, i would say i obviously knew the consequences, helping i wouldnt be a victim of retaliation but its going to be highly problematic, potentially ending my career but what were my options, really . Could have, i guess reversed course somehow and basically went back on my initial concer concerns, that was not a viable option for me. As a military officer, i could have not appeared before a branch of government, none of these are really Viable Options and i never really considered, unless the president gave me a direct order in which it would have to play on the court, i never considered not testifying. That is not the country i live in as far as im concerned. The most memorable part of your Opening Statement is where you address your father and his concerns about what you are doing, talking to elective professionals, it is proof you made the right decision to come here, the United States of america in search of a better life for our family, do not worry, i will be fine for telling the truth. You still feel that way . You have suffered real retaliation, hed been fired, he had to retire early from the army as lieutenant colonel, you want promoted to colonel as you deserved to be, your brother was fired along with you, your life talked about, do you still feel you are fine and the experience was a vindication of the american system . In a lot of ways, the failure of congress as a whole to enforce accountability and pursue justice, that wasnt my role. My role was relatively straightforward, i was called to testify based on what i observed. Going in to the closed door in public testimony, there is little doubt i would face retaliation. At that time, i hadnt face retaliation were ostracized by the Political Leadership and excluded from certain activities having proven myself as either disloyal or politically unreliable to the president , which in the military, we dont swear an oath to the president , is where goes to the constitution. I knew what i was getting into and every word in my statement was very carefully reviewed, i wish i had rehearsed it, i meant to say not collected professional, i meant to say elected official but i couldnt get it out right but i knew what i was saying the wrong word but go ahead. Is alluding to the fact that we live in a very different country and where we came from. The soviet union, the stakes were much higher. Ultimately, in the long run, i would be fine. I had sections for the future, i ultimately left due to campaign retaliation intimidation but i was referring to the fact that i would be okay long term, my dad came here at the age of 47 with 750, three young sons and a motherinlaw and she managed to be fine with a much harder road ahead. How does it feel to have been rocketed so quickly to so much fame and notoriety . To be watching for testimony, which was so truthful, to see the way you are vilified by so many republicans from having republican members of Congress Questioning your loyalty to america which is sickening for somebody like you whos armed a purple heart for our country, having kayleigh mcenany, the White House Press secretary calling you junior employee, having trump himself, the president of the u. S. Attack y you. But also, when he fired you, sending out this tweet about how you are supposed to give around his report from your superior, wouldnt adhere the chain of command, all of these lies which the kind of self we are used to being from internet trolls but this is the president of the United States the person who at that time, was still your commander in chief, it must have been a surreal experience, i cant imagine what that was like. Did you feel personally did you feel your life and your familys life was at stake . I just cant imagine what that was like. I will tell you, i have been through tougher situations, ive deployed to combat in the three years in moscow, more highstakes there. Geopolitical gains are played and you have an entire apparatus and my wife and i had been through our own challenges, she spoke about this recently in regards to a bigger family so in the big scheme of things, i tend to not focus on the bad things. The president of the United States, i separate the office from the person i hate referring to him as President Trump, he does not deserve that title in my mind. Yes, he won an election but hes proven, you have to earn respect and hes done the exact opposite so i have little regard for him or the officials he put in high office because they are unqualified and often times incompetent. In a lot of ways, i take it as a badge of honor when i get this by these folks with their claims about me and my character because i have little regard for them. The people i do hold high regard for, chairman dunker, in his last day in uniform, he basically put out, he put some information out for cnn, attesting to my qualities. That means so much more to me and what comes out of the president s mouth his tweet for his proxies. Take today, we see that he and his team are spreading disinformation, lying and undermining almost everything in the election, undermining the foundation of our democracy so it doesnt really bother me. With regards to the threats, maybe ill say my daughter says my wife is in charge of safety, i am in charge of the soapy she pays attention more closely to these things than i do. Like i said, ive lived in challenging places that can generally hold my own but it is quite disconcerting to have hate mail and threats coming to the house, so that was a problem. Prepared at various times, to move on, basic Due Diligence for safety but we try to live our life as much as we could normally in a stressful situation. A disgrace you have to endure because you testified truthfully, what to think about people like john bolton who refused to testify but could have added to the case . What you think about the republican members of congress who have the evidence and then choose to disregard it even though the evidence was overwhelming that trump was guilty of the high crimes and misdemeanors of which he was accused . What i find interesting and a little i guess, i take solace in the fact that these people have to live with their decision. I can speak about myself and why i chose to do my duty, i knew what the right thing to do was, i knew i would have to live my myself if i didnt do the right thing. Id have to look my daughter in her eyes when shes older and understands what is going on and i could have made a difference now is not going to his honor our family. These folks who failed to do that will have to live with the consequences of their actions. Some might not even feel bad about it. Some of these folks are very selfserving looking to profit and i guess they will be fine, even if they are vilified by the public but there will probably be enough people who will suffer consequences as a result of their response about this. Well see that in the upcoming election in a couple weeks, a number of people will lose their office and the rest of them shared responsibility, basically they will have that around there will be a sign around them the rest of their careers. I would just that. You mentioned the report use receipt, but i make curious in general, how much support did you receive from the army, from secretary defense, did you feel the building, as people call the pentagon, the building behind you that youve been vilified and ostracized by the president of the United States . What did they leave a man on the battlefield. There is some nuance in this question, bottom line is no. I never felt like i had any support for backing but the question is, who is to blame . Officials and the public defen defense, chairman of the joint chiefs, as leaders, they have responsibly but it goes back to the president and government for the past four years or so. Our institutions that have kept us as strong as we have been, have been under attack, it probably started with the department of justice, intel community, state department and frankly, because of me that they were drawn in and these officials have to make a choice between catering to their fears, succumbing to concerns over what the president might do in support of me or kept quiet and ultimately, they decided to preserve their own divisions, whether its an office, which is probably what they have in mind, they will be in a position to stamp the most egregious activities of the president but i think theres equal part at least, that is individuals looking to secure their own petition and did not want to risk the vindictive backlash from President Trump and therefore, i was part of the sacrifice in their mind that think it is worth mentioning that it is a slippery slope with this president and if you dont stand your ground, the president is likely to pursue the agenda more aggressively and when secretary esper chairman to back him as he pushed Peaceful Protesters for what amounted to a political at if they stood their ground, maybe that may not have happened. Traditionally, the military is a very Republican Group and im guessing probably are republican as well . I would say you know, i would describe it as the military tend to run more conservative. There is large continuing coming in, the representative of where they originate from. In that regard, it tends to run more conservative. Politics dont end up playing a significant role, i have no idea what the political affiliation of my peers, subordinates seniors, what the political affiliation was and im guessing it didnt know of my own. I grew up in new york city semia democrat at the age of 18. I was not an active participant in politics, i took the concept of military very, very seriously and if the president had me not politicized, i would have stayed but the president did attack me and gave me a voice and i had seen behind the curtain and i see this as part of my duty, basically speaking up and attesting to the Foreign Policy failures, personal failures of the president and if i have any role if i could have any impact on the upcoming elections, i will do that and that is way outside my comfort zone, i am not interested in a lot of engagements but ive had to comfortable starting in december, my family telling the stories, the American Public can see what the costs are for People Public servants and in the indication that the next four years would be better is misplaced, if anything, it will be significantly worse because there is not the guardrail of another election and i think people should know that when they go vote. What is your view of people for folks like mattis or john kelly or mcmaster and others who clearly, by President Trumps misconduct, they are not out here speaking up or campaigning against trump are trying to alert the American People to the danger. These are folks with a lot less to lose than you do. Nothing can possibly happen to them, they dont have careers pursue anymore and yet, they are choosing to stay silent. What is your view of that . Maybe i dont have particularly kind of i frankly see this as selfpreservation, militia officers especially senior military officers, their entire career, they think about preserving options. You want as many options as possible for whatever area you engage in. I think they are basically sticking to that notion that they dont want to burn any bridges will come down as democrat or publican monkey dont want to limit their financial opportunities, theyve worked 30 or 40 years in government, this is a time they can improve their family and basically, maybe they have lost sight that they have an opportunity in private versus public. I see my role in Public Service containing. I dont understand why they are not speaking up. They lived these values for decades, they know whats right and wrong is the only things that seems to be justified is again, selfpreservation, self enrichment, frankly, that is the way i see it. Idea of a political military once you hang up your uniform, youre still a leader have an ability to make an impact, you shouldnt take down the responsibly. I want to turn to what could be the 64 billiondollar question, which people have been asking for a long time and i still have not heard a straight answer. What is it trump in russia particularly trump and putin dan coats was quoted saying he thinks he has something on trump. How do you explain the fact that trump attacks pretty much everybody except Vladimir Putin . That is the 64 billion question. I certainly have heard people speculate about the compromising material that Vladimir Putin might have on him but i take an analytical approach and have determined he doesnt need compromise. He has a willing participant in the form of trump is a fan boy. He admires him and has admired him for a long time. Admires him because of who putin is the power he wields without kind of check. In a lot of ways, trump would like to be the same kind of bigger, is just not as confident doesnt have the wherewithal to do that. What putin has, hes a useful idiot and a fellow traveler as i have described in an article, the useful idiot is frankly, he doesnt know putin interests, he is know that basically in carrying putins water, hes undermining the credibility and the trust and effectiveness of the intelligence committee, he took the word of putin over the consensus view of his Intelligence Community and frankly, is a useful idiot and taking divisive issues and using them to drive larger wedges and a fellow traveler, i guess only in the, he wants to be an authoritarian leader and hell do everything he can in the next four years. That is his view how power should be healed. It is not necessarily useful. Also with somebody like trump who is so erratic and impulsive, it doesnt make a lot of sense for russians to try to use leverage in that way because who knows what he can say, it can pull up in that space if the president were to say yes, accidentally say that. It doesnt make sense for them to use information like that. What you make about this pseudo scandal that trump and Rudy Giuliani are trying to generate Hunter Bidens emails . To me, it looks like a continuation of the scam you blew the whistle on that they were trying to run last year, trying to get the Ukrainian Government under threat of using u. S. Aid to come up with a compromise on hunter biden and joe biden. Trump got impeached but now he seems to be trying the same thing so you have the New York Post these emails that will not be verified claiming to be the biden. Even if its true, im not sure i see the scandal because fundamentally, theres no evidence that joe biden did anything to help hunter biden in the actions he took against ukraine, thats what the u. S. Government should be done. Nevertheless, you have trump and rudy and the whole nevertheless you have trump, rudy, fox and their gang trying to make this the greatest political scandal in history and the whole time rudy is working with a ukrainian lawmaker by trumps on treasury department, so much coming out, fox news, they are desperate with a few days before the election. What is your analysis of this attempt to create a scandal . This fall, solar of congress and its failure especially the senate. If the president is censured, never would have pulled the same thing fabricating some sort of false narrative of corruption with Vice President biden. I looked at this matter pretty closely starting in the march april time frame of 2019 as things unfold and quickly dismissed it. I kept asking from the right people. Within the state department, theres no real substance to it. It was pretty clear when burisma and the Ukrainian Government reported that the reason the servers were hacked and information was stolen, this was many many months, might have been the beginning of this year and last year, it was clear how this in formation was going to be used, clearly this would be rolled out in that campaign, if this was going to get donald trump nobody cares, no one is paying attention to that. Sean hannity paying attention. Even the so, there is a hardcore constituency that will back the president no matter what, thats not the portion of the electorate that will get him a second term. The vast majority, the part of america that will bring a new administration is the one that will understand that 220,000 americans have died because the president s mismanagement of this pandemic, the consequence of the pandemic, people feel this. I went to visit a 94yearold grandmother in middle america, oklahoma and people Wearing Masks or feeling the effects of the coronavirus it did not magically go away like he suggests that it was going to. The distractions of this specie is fabricated narrative of this computer, no clear connection to hunter biden, it is likely connected, or lots of experience, a smarmy political figure acting not as protecting the United States but carrying the president s water, propagating the false narrative. Fundamentally, people that this will be meaningful to will not be swayed into voting for donald trump. Fox has locked in that 35 of the population, the hardcore Trump Supporters but thats not going to be enough to get the president across the goal line and there is not anything credible that these are legitimate accusations against hunter biden who i think frankly had a major error in judgment in profiting off of his fathers position and enriching himself, to not realize the potential harm that could do love Vice President is a terrible lapse in judgment, but that is for Vice President biden and hunter biden to work out. Seems like a wonderful loving father and i am sure they will get past that. Thats all there is to it. An audience question, my final question is what do you think is the russian game plan for this election. We had a report in the New York Times based on Us Intelligence communities that the russians are hacking into election infrastructure at the state and local level. We had radcliffe, a political tactic, playing the finger for a particular in formation that iran and china backing that but the Intelligence Community screening that russia is the real threat, is time running out for them . It difficult situation they are in on this strategy, two primary objectives, one is help donald trump get reelected because advancing russian interests undermining us alliances, undermining nato, undermining the credibility of the United States, creating space for this authoritarian vision of how the world should look at the russians and chinese share, that is the first thing. What is interesting, they would probably not be helping trump they think is not hard but very unstable and unpredictable and it is hard to coordinate foreignpolicy in one direction, instrumental in americas economy. It they believe that but on opposite sides of the issue, it could lead to a catastrophic miscalculation or accident and they dont need that but back to russia the second thing we are looking for is to clamp down on credible elections, the president has done far more damage than the russians could do. The russians are kind of like some sort of increment to advance this notion, data that supports this notion that us elections have been interfered with and undermines the potential outcome especially for his close. If it is a blowout against trump it will be hard to make this case but if close it might give the president enough room to challenge this in the courts. They are looking to create that kind of doubt. In general the russians are keen on interfering in us elections and undermining the ability of our democracy, it is part b to the second objective. There are other things they are keyed on doing. From a technical standpoint it is not easy, the Us Government invested heavily in terms of pardoning elections in spite of the fact the president , that there is election interference, the federal government has been oriented on pardoning elections and making sure they are executed as intended by us officials. What you potentially have is enough data, not enough to create any harm. We have 50 ways of running elections and they have to be really precise targeting the couple of districts that might be meaningful but i dont know if i put much credit in that regard. We have macro objectives they are offering. The first question flows naturally, gary asks what should be the policy towards Vladimir Putin and russia. A lot of people spend time on this, there has to be a reckoning, the reckoning could take many different forms. This administration has been consistent not so much recently but relatively consistent in levying on russias malign influence and aggression. Some things will continue but proven to be not enough. The russians put bounties on us soldiers, things they would not have considered. You think the intelligence on the bounties is solid. The reason i could say that is even before this, the russians have rendered significance to the taliban and. The big leap is there willing to attack us interests, there is normally high risk associated with that. To answer garys question we have to look at some other tools. If the russians are interested in internal interference in the us and europe, they should be prepared, claims promoted by the us, they are completely false. We dont do that. They might need to be prepared if they want to continue that. Host martin asks more personal questions, did you encounter antisemitism and it seems trump lost a lot of support. What do you attribute that to . It is true that a few of them including my own relatives. Why is that . I will start with the second question. The russians, older immigrant community to be very conservative, socialism or can be claimed as such, will get a Strong Negative response. But that doesnt explain the entirety of the russian immigrant community. The russians, reporting many people might not know, russians have been savvy at leveraging immigrant communities, israel and any place where you could find that. With this kind of information, easy purchase to a community that believes in the hazard of flipping into socialism and communism. Just likeyearold family and my family for a while before i became the target of that, open in support of donald trump. Thats no longer the case and it is something that requires they had to use that kind of work and reach out to those type of conversations that need to be had to shed light on this issue. Interesting that in spite of the fact this committee is well versed in the art of propaganda, they still take spoonfuls of it without turning away. With regards to whether i suffered bias, i was an officer, thats not conducive to people to be racist towards me. I would not hold back the chain, that i never experienced. Somebody said something without thinking about it and i made a correction but it is representative of background, it doesnt make sense to me, there is not a large jewish population. Pretty much the only way to understand our judaism but i have not been the target of racism or bias per se that i am aware of. Only the general sense, you have a very pretty conservative with a lot of partisan folks, they might look more faithfully on people who look similar but not explicit biased but implicit. The army and the military is good about not tolerating that. I have lived in the country since the age of 6 and the only time i encounter antisemitism was when trump came to office and i get antisemitic tweets an emails another garbage, brought the haters out. Let me ask another question back to trump and Vladimir Putin. What do you think trump and Vladimir Putin talked about, notetakers president , there was one translator present but he confiscated the notes. What do you think they were saying to each other . Interesting question. I know the translator pretty well, terrific person. I dont think she would tolerate anything that smacked of blatant criminality but it is a problem. The fact is more than likely topics, the president looks like a child, the kinds of abuse he feels he suffered from media or victim of some sort of offense. I imagine this is Vladimir Putin celebrating over the fact the president was whining about being attacked for russian collusion. From the trump side from. From Vladimir Putins side looking for every opportunity to advance his own interests and agenda. The day of the meeting in helsinki my firsthand experience is i wouldnt read too far into that. Besides the president not acting like an adult, a man, leader there was probably nothing substantive on it. I was implementing these things and they were relatively normal initiatives. The same thing i addressed with john james in the times was i operate in the formal existing bureaucratic channels but thats not necessarily the channel of record or the meaningful channel, to work around and reach out to the political actors and achieve what they want. The july 20 fifth phone call, he was going to reach out to a chief of staff, mcilvain he had the time and scheduled his phone call even though john bolton, praise or damn him said no, i dont think this a good idea but you have these alternate end runs around the way things are supposed to work. It is hard to understand the doubledealing and bad deals out there because it doesnt run through a normal process and it is going to get worse. A number of questions about you personally, what is your brother doing now . Questions about our you weathering your retirement . Are you okay, a couple questions about if joe biden wins could he bring you back into the military . Would you go back to the nsc . A lot of interest hear from folks about your own personal future and that of your brother. Thank you for all the support this question implies. There is an enormous amount of support throughout this process with thousands of letters coming in. I am grateful. Eugene is doing okay for the time being. In certain regards i want to say the Legal Community is doing the right thing while facing the army in the department of defense facing significant head wind. His promotion board, expecting results to see if he will be promoted in september. The department of defense is probably holding off on submitting this list until after the election at which point the president could lash out with bigger issues to deal with. Lets see how things turn out. Hes been the target of retaliation. Some of these guys from the National Security council reached out to harm his career just to be malicious and cover up wrong good doing, they are looking at whistleblower retaliation, ethical violations, so we will see. It is too early to say. I am okay, i am pursuing a drug option, great power competition, same thing i was working on, for public consumption, questions that are most meaningful for us. How do we deal with a china that is aggressive and highly competitive 21stcentury geopolitical environment. I dont know. To complete this program for a couple years. I have to configure that and continue to think the future holds service. I want to give you a chance to say anything you want to say in closing before we sign off. We covered a lot of terrain here. I want to thank david and janice for providing an opportunity to share some views, and maybe again for those undecided out there, encourage them to vote, and we are facing a very perilous future if donald trump is reelected and has four more years. That is one of the reasons as vocal as i am i am not comfortable. Anyone who has seen my wife speak, shes amazing, phenomenal. Host you are not so bad yourself. Guest i am not, but i feel i have no choice. Hard to that. Thousands of people. For your courage and heroism speaking out. And my your own president and his, you have to amend his admiration for how you have stood firm under fire, the highest ideals of this nation and continue to serve this nation. Thank you for enlightening, fascinating hour. Justice and community advocates, thank you for joining us this evening. Donald trump delivers remarks today at a Campaign Rally in arizona on the nevada border with a week until election day. Watch live on 3 00 pm eastern on cspan2, online, cspan. Org or listen live on the free cspan radio apps. With 6 days until election day, november 3rd when Voters Decide who will control congress and occupy the white house, watch campaign 2020 coverage on cspan, dream or on demand, cspan. Org, listen to the cspan radio apps. Your place for an unfiltered view of politics