Transcripts For CSPAN2 David Davis Wheels Of Courage 20240712

Not kovach. We were introduced i tom, local scribe here years ago and ron has been very encouraging and helped me quite a bit with this book in terms ofbackground and research and so forth. Ron of course was a vietnam veteran. Most of the book that i wrote is about world war ii veterans and i just wanted to give you background before ron and istart speaking. Before world war ii if you were paralyzed you were pretty much a dead end her, i know hope as they were called. Its the average lifespanwith 18 months for someone wounded in world war i. World war ii was the game changer. The advent of penicillin, they had surgical units right behind the battlefield, right behind the front line and they had better evacuation back to the mainland. So by the end of world war ii we do have a cohort of about 2500 us veterans who are paralyzed and returned home and they had a chance at a normal life and this was the first cohort that was going to have this and it presented a dilemma and a bit of an issue for the va, the Veterans Administration and the government. In other words how do we take care of these men. Before basically they were immobilized in fullbody plaster casts, shunted off to institutions or basically if they were a family they were in the family homeand had no mobility. The clichc or the term confined to a wheelchair was true because you couldnt move around. They were unwieldy wheelchairs, they were like living roomfurniture. And again everest and jennings were wheelchairs that were made locally and they were a game changer because they could fold. You could put them in the car and drive away and start a family and soforth. So these 2500 paralyzed veterans were pioneers and one of the Key Attributes of rehabilitation and the rehabilitation medicine in the va hospitals was recreation. And were going to roll a clip now, youre going to see one of the first wheelchair basketball games ever played. It was at Madison Square garden in 1948 and youll see theyre using that everest and jennings chairs which in todays world we would think of as just incredibly oldfashioned and not very maneuverable. In fact, then those were stateoftheart. This is a game featuring paralyzed veterans from pitching hospital, they came down to new york city to play against a team from staten island. And you can see the game is very of crude. Theres not a whole lot of ostensive plays and things like that but this is the first time that paralyzed veterans and paraplegics are displayed in front of huge crowds. You have 15,000 people admiring the pioneers, these veterans who have managed to start a normal life and the sport was part of that. One of the key teams and will see the thing in the next clip, one of the key teams and by the way this was sort of the result. You had Media Coverage this was one of the players in that game , jack ehrhardt. He was wounded in normandy and here he is on the cover of news event and every media covered these guys from the communist daily worker to popular mechanics. And out here in Southern California there was a bastion of wheelchair basketball and this was out of the early da hospital in van nuys in the San Fernando Valley and is caught the attention of hollywood and heres Marlon Brando in his first hollywood movie and he plays a paralyzed veteran and hes rehabbing and some of this was filmed out in van nuys and these are some of the exercises and its one of the reasons why wheelchair basketball became so popular both for the veterans but also why the doctors commented on it was because it did help with the arms, the shoulder muscles which are so important for paraplegics because for helping them to move around and to have the strength to be able to do this. Heres what i was mentioning about jennings. Hes going into the car with his costar there. That folds up and goes right into the second seat and he can drive away. These are specially adapted cars for paraplegics. And youll see the house that hes now walking in, these paralyzed veterans formed the pda which stirs this, the paralyzed veterans of america when this team from birmingham would go on the road, they would stop in washington dc and Lobby Congress for disability rights including adaptive colors and a stipend to build a house that was rampant so forth and here we see brando playing somewheelchair basketball. And playing sports. This was the shot at the pool their and one of the veterans who i write extensively about in the book was in this film as an extra. They used a bunch of extras who were paralyzed veterans as background actors. And again, you see obviously brando, this was a role that was very attractive to him. His first role after playing and becoming a fan, becoming a star i shouldsay. Ron, of course you were played by Marlon Brando, you were played by tom cruise. I just wanted to say first of all its a pleasure to be participating with you today. My very first wheelchair wasnt emerson jetting wheelchair. You made me feel old but my first chair wasnt Emerson Jennings and it was the first chairthat i had. It worked for me back then. It was 1968. I was shot january 20, 1868 on my second tour of duty as a United States marine in vietnam in the dmz area and i was shot through the right shoulder and it went through my right lung and paralyzed me but from my mid chest down ive been paralyzed for the last what is it, 52, 53 years. So i remember reading or looking yesterday and realizing that even after world war ii a lot of the paraplegics and quadriplegics were not living past a year or 18 months as you said. I mean, im just so grateful to be alive, still alive and ive lost many friends along the way. This is not an easy disability, and easy physical challenge to deal with. Its psychologically, emotionally, its a great challenge. Maybe you can tell us, tell the audience about that. When you came back you ended up at the bronx va as i recall. The bronx va which i recall was later investigated by life magazine. They did a frontpage, a front cover. Our forgotten wounded wasthe title. It really shook up the whole va. It was the story of neglect, of the young men coming back from vietnam with some of the most catastrophic injuries you can imagine. Paraplegics, quadriplegics. Young men paralyzed from the neck down. Some of the most you could imagine being neglected. Rats on the war, overcrowded conditions. Im sure many of you watching this right now i have seen this in the movie, tom cruise movie born on the fourth of july read all of that was true and thats how i began mylife at the age of 21. They really did know whether i was going to make it or not in the intensive care ward. I have never not felt grateful to be alive. Everything that they, about how hard it is got over the years and theres been some really difficult moments especially in the early years. Depressing moments, moments when i drank way too much, moments when i came close to giving up and leaving this world, way too early. There was a part of me that new that id made it out of there just barely. Ive somehow gotten out of there. I wish shot first in my right foot. The bullet went through my foot and blew out the back of my heel. I could no longer walk. I went into a pole position and it took a route to my right shoulder i couldnt move. My rifle was in the sand. My rifle wouldnt fire anymore. It was jammed. The first marine to come up from behind was shot in the heart right behind me he was killed instantly called right in the back of me. Another marine came back a few moments later, came up from behind, grab me, threw over his shoulder and maybe back under heavy fire and saved my life. Ive never forgotten that they and ive never forgotten how lucky i am to have survived. Even during the most difficult times, those early years were very, very difficult. Many of the admin severely wounded, paralyzed veterans, quadriplegics, those first two years were too much for them but some of us, some of us decided to go on. I remembered sitting in my room room in my wheelchair and massapequa long island all of the own and i remember having this feeling, thinking to myself how im according going to mako another day . I had just met we did some of the veterans of world war ii and korea coming to our room at the bronx v. A. And they were inspiring. Just to see these guys would bid in wheelchairs, five years, ten years, even longer. I couldnt believe it because i was just try to make it through every single day, was psychologically, emotionally, physically overwhelming. I had no idea how is going to live with this thing and how it was good to deal with it. I couldve never imagined, i couldve never imagined that i would have the future i eventually had, that is able to eventually addressed the Democratic National convention in new york, that is able to write a book, that became a bestseller and i was able to eventually have a movie made of my life. I feel very blessed. My life in many ways has been a blessing in disguise. Athleticism and you talk about the whole wheelchair basketball, well when i got out of the hospital, david, i decide through the g. I. Bill i had the opportunity, and it wasnt a great student believe me, i had to go to Summer School in Massapequa High School just to get a general diploma which was mailed to me, so i wasnt going to college and i had decided im going to join the marines, make mom and dad proud and it ended up coming home paralyzed. But i remember, it was just how did you get started in terms of after came out of the v. A. Hospital basketball yourself, how did that first of all i was able to go to college, even with, you know, my academic standing was not the best at the time. I was still able to go. They gave me the opportunity to go, and Hofstra University had a Basketball Team. It was called the rolling dutchman. I grew up wanting to play for the new york yankees, you know, Little League and basketball and football and wiffleball. If you came from new york, who were heavily into sports. We were in our neighborhood, and the yankees and Mickey Mantle and roger barris, i mean, all these dreams of being an athletic hero. I was very strong, very athletic. I was gymnastic in high school. Even before i join the rolling dutchman, the Wheelchair Basketball Team, which was quite an experience for me, i used to shoot baskets when i would have some time. There was a court just at the v. A. Just down the flow hilda solis basketball court. I would go agenda by myself for hours, two, three hours and i would just shoot and i loved it. I loved it and it did that by myself intel i found out that they had this organized Wheelchair Basketball Team at the university, and i decided to join. What led me to join was i had my First Political organization that i decided to join very interesting enough was called push, People United to support the handicap. I First Political organization, and as they use followed i i wd be involved in a lot of politics and a lot of protests, but this organization was made up exclusively paraplegics, quadriplegics. Not just veterans but cerebral palsy, the blind, site compared, you name it, we had it. Back then you have to understand it was a very tumultuous time. There were people in the streets, demonstrations, revolution was in the air. And even this group that met once a week at Hofstra University which eventually led me to join the Basketball Team, this group was filled with passion, filled with, you know, had a certain sense of rebellion. The school wasnt that way. The country was extremely polarized. Any of you who have lived during that time he had the good fortune of living through that extraordinary time and history with the vietnam war and the country was split, very similar in many ways to whats going on right now. But i have to say that this organization, push, that was the First Organization that gave me a certain confidence and in particular woman i met or chronically ship in a my high school. She eventually became an author later in life but she since passed away. Connie white dedicated board on the fourth of july 2, i remember leaving the v. A. One day going to hofstra, i the day off. They allowed me to go there so i could meet the dean who was going to allow me to go to the school. I concerned member his name, dean cedar. I went into the office and there was this girl in the office in a wheelchair, connie with a severe disability that had occurred at birth. She said you looked familiar i think. Did you go to Massapequa High School . I said yet. She said i used to watch you with your varsity sweater walking past me in the hallway. I said i remember you. You were the only disabled person in the wheelchair and our entire school back then. She said yes. And she said, i started to drive her home because she needed a try phone when she said she did. But i would drive her home and she was not far from my town. I would drop her off. I catch you know her parents. One thing led to another. She asked to join this People United to support the handicap for everything from curb cuts but you must of at Hofstra University was really at the forefront back then, it prided itself in the fact that was tailoring to that was welcoming the disabled, welcoming is a big change in the early 70s which eventually to the americans with disability act. But she was the one who led me to the First Political organization of physically challenged people and then from there she said you know, we have a Wheelchair Basketball Team here at Hofstra University. She said what you go down and, i know that youre an athlete in high school and you are arrested, varsity wrestler and you love sports. Why didnt you go down and see . I went down and they allowed me to the accepted me. My level of entry was pretty high come still is. I have no balance but it was thrilling. It really was. It was exciting to be with other young men like myself with very similar disabilities and to be competing, to be actually competing and there was a feeling of transcending, transcendence wherefore moment you forgot, for a moment you were not thinking of being paralyzed, for a moment you shooting a basket, you are trying to make the hook shot. It was exciting. Was great, it was wonderful. You felt great inside physically. Whatever depression you mightve had a whatever doubts or feelings, i mean, i was getting with a lot of not just physical, but because of what i have gone through during my second tour of duty, after dealing with a lot of psychological trauma from what i had gone through during that second tour. I was struggling with it. I was struggling with whether i had a right to stay alive or to give up. I felt a tremendous amount of survivors guilt and up wondered if i deserved to be alive because others have died and ai had survived and people i been responsible for who i i had led into battle had been killed, and yet i was still alive. Even though i was paralyzed, i felt terrible guilt. I live with that for a long time. It was a long journey to move through that come yet to emerge from that and be able to forgive myself and also forgive those who mightve sent me to that war. Im sorry for going on. Thats quite all right. I wanted to circle back of something you mentioned and previously about when you were in the v. A. And you had i guess in a sense the support of world war ii and korea war veterans. What was the experience like for you, for the veterans are gone through all of this . I am laying there in my bed, you know, and you have these guys come in here with this cocky very positive attitude. How you doing . Hows it going . Collis rodriguez, you know. One of the real inspirations one of the founders come early founders of paralyzed veterans of america and a real character and a half and a mover and shaker, had that sick new york bronx accent or whatever, how you doing . Whats going on . How can we help you . What can we do . You know, how long have you been in a wheelchair i said to them, you know . I had a difficult it and wondered if i could make it through that night. He said that been a wheelchair, what, 11, 12 years, wounded in korea. These guys were an inspiration. It would come into our rooms. They were very, very important to us back then. I was across from willie who had been paralyzed so severely that he had come he was paralyzed from the neck down, if you can imagine, and there was a hole in his throat with the court on it. I wrote about in born on the fourth of july. One day dont allow the court and put a tube in their and i would have to listen to this and all the rest of the guys in my room, the one owe three for others, it would be suctioning the flynn out of his lungs so it wouldnt get pneumonia. I heard that every single day. It was just just so moving, you know . I felt so lucky to be alive and yet here was a guy across three who is just trying to live with a head. All he had was a head, you know. How could these people not inspire you. Then people like the world war ii vets and korean vets. Telling you, you can do something with your life. Your life is not over. For a long time i remember a guy would come in. He was recruiting paraplegics to work for the Bulova Watch Company. He wanted me to make watches, to work on watches. Thats where a lot of the guys were sent, to the watchmaking company. I used to say to myself, thats not me. I always had big dreams as a kid. Maybe its not a good thing to dream so big, but i always thought that my life could have much greater meaning, and im not knocking people working in a watch company or for having a job, but i just wanted to do more. I wanted my life to really count, to really stand for something. Even before i was paralyzed had been inspired by john f. Kennedy, adam wanted to be like john f. Kennedy. I wanted to be like john wayne. Maybe it was unhealthy. Maybe it was maniacal but thats who i was and i was an american. Thats very much having grown up in a convoy in this country, having dreams beyond all dreams and believing you could be anything you wanted to be the matter what happened to you. That sustain me, even back then after i was paralyzed i said i want to do something great with my life. I did say those things. I want to just interrupt for a second about Bulova Watch Company, that was a program started for the world war ii vets. He built the watchmaking pool in queens. When youre going to john f. Kennedy airport youll go buy some of the buildings there, and eventually they had a Basketball Team called the boulevard watchmakers. I had no idea. When you think about it it was one of the First Corporate sponsored sports teams, and not that far away there was another company team called the pan am jets and they were mostly [inaudible] so anyway, thats the part of the story about try to watchmakers. As you mentioned, ron, that was part of rehabilitation was vocational. Absolutely. The v. A. Administrators figured lets get these guys in a job in a wheelchair, they can do watch make repair our watchmaking. Anyway, it connected in that regard. And many of the veterans took that route, and to think, i mean, i admire the head of Bulova Watch Company to do that. I love the name of the team by the way. That name is really catchy. I love that. I have to say this. I probably took the wrong turn. I was grumpy and they had an attitude, and i dont know how my mom and dad ever put up with me. Listen, iu to go out to the bar and come home drunk. I came home drunk. You mightve seen the scene in born on the fourth of july. You remember brando in the mint. I was worse than brando in the mint. I was terrible. I was just a juvenile delinquent at 21 in a wheelchair. I think thats a good point because i dont want whitewash the experience in terms of they started playing wheelchair basketball and everything was okay. The recovery, as you mentioned, theres psychological elements. They were out of town both physical and psychological. Can you imagine losing most of your body, having to pull the trigger and kill people knowing he you would kill people right in front of you, taking life out of this world . Not to mention the fact that someone almost killed you and you somehow are dragged out of this place with only a quarter of the body of the left, your head, the upper part of your body. You have to make something out of this. You have to find a way to keep living. Before we go one on i just wano throughout this to the audience. If you have questions or ron are myself, these feel free to typm in and we will have come one of us will answer, just want to make sure you all know that function is viable. Can i say one thing . Of course. I really want to recommend this book. This book is inspiring. One of the thing david touches on, and you write beautifully and passionately, he touches upon the fact that these men who played in Madison Square garden and the clip that you saw, these men of world war ii, of okinawa, of the european theater looking back with these devastating injuries, they were of the greatest generation as well. This book recognizes them, probably for the first time we begin to recognize the fact in a very honorable way that this group, these men were very much a part, a piece of that generation. By the way, my mother and father both served during world war ii my mother joined the navy a week after pearl harbor. My father who is in wisconsin at the time planting trees under roosevelt wpa program, he lived on a farm. My dad very farmed. But after december 71941, my father immediately assuming other americans did, went to sign up. The monday after that sunday december 7, my father was lined up to join the service and to support his country. So i grew up with parents who had served during the second world war. And you of course were born obviously the fourth of july but you were born in 1946 1946 by r just a little while ago. And there was quite a different reaction and wanted to ask you about this, quite a different reaction for when the world war ii veterans came home versus when Vietnam Veterans like yourself came home. I wanted to know, maybe you could that and talk to that a little bit. In other words, what was the reaction that you found when you return home finally to long island and tried to start life anew . Growing up in the 50s with the john wayne movies, submachine guns, the culture, i dont know if remember, there was a tv show on cbs called the big picture, and i grew up watching this about world war ii, whether it was in the Pacific Theater or whether it was in europe. It was about our heroes coming back from world war ii. We were all aware of that, and thats what we thought, america was like. When we came back from vietnam, as i said to you the other day, i remember silence, silence, nobody really wanted to talk about it. He didnt want to talk about the war, and yet our lives had been profoundly affected by, dramatically by that experience. Yeah, i remember feeling, you know, i know a lot of veterans said they felt they were mistreated and abused, and i just felt, i just dont people just shut off their feelings. I didnt want to talk about it. That was very difficult. That hurt. I was doing the same thing. I think i was trying to numb myself what it happen, and you somehow, overwhelming emotionally. I was having anxiety attacks. Im sticking my finger down my throat every morning over the toilet bowl. I wasnt sick to my stomach. I was just doing that to break the terror that i felt every morning waking up. I would wake up to a nightmare every morning. I would go to bed to a nightmare every night. I couldnt go to sleep at night. I couldnt go to sleep at night because when i was wounded and i were shot on that day, i fought to stay wake him to stay awake. I was frightened to death as he pulled me off the field, as he went back across the river, as it went to the first aid station. And youre correct in what you said earlier about how quickly, i mean, i was immediately taken care of. Once i was pulled off the field, once by life was saved by that marine who by the way later on that afternoon was killed in an artillery attack, he died the day he saved my life and and it back across the river in an amphibious tractor, it merely on the other side of the river where the battalion command said was i was being attended to by doctors. I was being cared for. I was put on a helicopter immediately and then is put on a plane immediately i was in intensive care ward. Immediately i was sitting last rites from the Catholic Church as being operated on. This was their very different and i was able to survive and come home. Right. All you went through in terms of sort of chain of command in terms of your treatment had also world war ii and korea units where the impact weight by helicopter and so forth. One of the veterans that speeders let me just say this, david. They saved our lives. I wouldnt be here. This was a savage woman, it really was and i live with the savage with everyday but i dont feel that way. I feel whole. I feel ive transcended this. I know i am paralyzed. I know its difficult. Its difficult everyday but yet i feel that i moved beyond it is i think its important that people realize that, you know, that that there is life, there is a path forward. You can move beyond come anybody listening to stop watching this right now, the matter how tragic you may think your circumstances are and no matter, or how tormented or struggling emotionally and you have doubts whether your life has meaning, never give up, never quit. You never know whats around the bend. You never know, you never know how your life can change. You never know what is waiting for you out there. Could i ever imagined, david, when i was first wounded that some famous movie star would play my flight story and millions of people would see that around the world . How could i ever imagined that . That i would write a book that would end up on New York Times book bestseller review . You were terrible in high school. Thats the trick obviously. One of the veterans i do write about from world war ii, he was paralyzed on okinawa. His name was jerry. I was able to meet with him and interview him and hang out with him before he passed away. Thankfully he knew that this book was on its way before he passed away. But his life intersected with yours in particular faith and like and i can ask you about it because its not that well known but jerry lived a very full life, in a wheelchair, 70 some odd years twenty years more than me. I hope i make it that far. You are on your way for sure. He wanted to live life life toe fullest and one of the was to guadalajara mexico which became known as because of the vast numbers of veterans, paralyzed veterans, u. S. Paralyzed veterans who would go down to mexico to live because they could live cheap and they could have some fun. I understand you went down there and lived in the quad and i one asked without expense was like . I wrote about it and its true, i went down there. Back then in guadalajara there was a place called the village of the sun come up the village of the sun and the loosening of the compound. I would almost exclusively Vietnam Veterans, paralyzed and quadriplegics. Like many of you probably saw the scene in the movie with, thats quite a colorful scene, the village of the sun, you know. I wanted to get out of the states. I found out about mexico, guadalajara, when a zombie paraplegic ward one day. I guy in a wheelchair who i knew, you know, spent time with on the ward, he came whirling down with the sombrero hat and a beautiful young woman. She should have been going out with. She looked like she was 18, you know, young woman. He was probably, well, we were not that old, but anyway, he came up to me and he said you know, i want you to meet my wife. He said i said, how you doing . You got to go to mexico. You got to go to guadalajara. You had to go to the village of the sun. He said it will change your life. Either that or it will take your life, but it will change your life. I went to this place. I remember getting drunk one night, again. I mean, i was drinking a lot back then, at arthurs bar. I dont know how i got home. I could hardly see. I mean, i was blind drunk and i drove back to my house in massapequa. I pulled my wheelchair out, got a wheelchair, i wheeled up the ramp my father had put in front of her house. I remember calling into the bed, looking up to the bed that with my catheter which ive used ever since, and saying to myself, what am i doing . Where is my life going . I made the decision, i think was the next day i went out and got a ticket to fly from Kennedy Airport to mexico city, direct flight to mexico city. I changed planes and is headed to guadalajara. I was going to do what that guy told me. I was going to try to find my wife down in guadalajara. That was my main motivation. I couldnt find a girl. I couldnt meet anybody. Maybe it was my own security, i dont know, and had had a lot of insecurity back then. I wanted to have what happened to that guy with the sombrero and his wife happened to me. I wanted love. I wanted to meet somebody so i flew down to guadalajara, landed there, and i remember this guy who ran the village, i remember his name to this day. He carried me into this truck, this old broken down truck and he drove me, mustve been 20, 3d countryside to the village of the sun. It was really quite an experience. The next morning i got up. I was in this little room, very humble, simple little bed. Nothing fancy at all. It made motel six look like a prehistoric cave, you know . It was really very basic. There was a main area, along long table, and it was all the guys who lined up in the wheelchairs on both sides and thats how we had breakfast every morning. We had dinner every night at a certain hour. We had our rooms. I happened to fall in with some of the wrong people come as you mightve seen in the movie, charlie, charlie, you know, who was a wild man from chicago, charlie. Whats your name . Charlie. How long have you been here . 100 100 years, or something he would say. I told him, everybody here meet ron kovic from massapequa new york, you know. I i fell in with his wild man really. It took me under his wing, you know, and i just was willing to run with anybody back then. I wanted to live. I want to meet some girls. And so we took me into the city. He said ill take you out, and he took me. He started take me to the different or houses in the city so i could meet a wife, you know . I ran with the charlie and i dont know if you saw the movie, maybe we dont want this book. Wada business ever tell the rest of the story. I had never had sex before and this was my First Experience with sex. I was paralyzed before ever made love to anybody for the first time. I was so young. I was trying to be a a good catholic, a good catholic boy. I did want to burn in the fires of hell so i have not made love or had sex with anyone, even in high school. I was 21 years old and then all of a sudden, boom, i was paralyzed. Everything for my big chest down. I would never have sex again, least that type of sex as we all know it and i would never be able to children. But here i was lining up in a whore house in mexico. I ended up on these mattresses with these women. I mean, they were particularly young, i dont how young they were but i didnt even know what to do. As you saw in that one scene in born on the fourth of july i started crying. I cant move this, i cant do that, i cant do that. It was very difficult, info, frustrating, traumatic for me at first but sexuality, i think you all from world war ii, something thats not often said. The loss of our sexuality, the loss of that aspect of our lives, the loss of the billy to make children, to have children, to have some type of normalcy in our life, that was something they were almost afraid to tell people about an guadalajara provided that for me. It provided, you could call it a place of experimentation where i could at least experience when for the first time were not going to laugh at me, not make fun of me because i couldnt move certain parts of my body or feel them anymore. But they who would accept me and allow me just to begin the journey toward discovering what sexuality really was, that there were other aspects of sexuality, other than that one particular approach that id lost in the war. I know this is, maybe this bothers people to hear this, but it was not just that i could move my legs are i would never stand to walk again but it was also that i could not experience this experience that everyone said was so wonderful and exciting. It was the beginning of a journey for me to find meaning and purpose in my life. Guadalajara provided that, and charlie with dragging me from one whore house to the next if you want to know, we were getting drunk. Were getting thrown out of places. This man was dangerous point we got thrown out of one place and i thought, first of all, they threw him out the front door, out of his wheelchair onto the street, and i wondered if we were going to survive this. I dont know if remember in born on the fourth of july they cant write i do get back to the village of the subject he starts fighting with the cab driver, telling him he is cheating as, calls of all sorts of names. The cab driver ended up throwing us on the roadside. We were lucky enough to have gotten back to the village of that night. We were abandoned in the middle of the desert, you know . Guadalajara, suffice to say, was quite an experience for me, and at the same time i was really happy to get back to the United States. Thank god im flying back home to massapequa. Thank you for that experience, ron. But just to add to that come certainly the world war ii veterans who i wrote about, many of them adopted children, you know, and that was part of their journey to normalcy, to the new normal as you say. David, many of them, yes. I am one person, what i went through, but i was witness to the fact that yes, many of them, many of them that there is normalize, many of them raised children and had normal families. I dont know why it took me, i have never been married and never adopted any children, that ive been able to find love in a very special woman in my life right now. Yes, and she helped us connect with this internet thing that is called zooming and broadcasting which we appreciate that, terry and. I can do anything without her. We have a question from your pal, tom. Hi, tom. Enos he knows obviously playd some wheelchair basketball. It you ever play wheelchair baseball . No, i never did, but in massapequa and toronto avenue which was a street right in front of house i grew up in, god, you know, we would play, played football and i was always obviously i was quarterback and i loved football in a wheelchair. And also when i was still a patient at the bronx v. A. , it was a workout mat and he used to challenge of the paraplegics because i was a varsity wrestler at the high school. I would challenge him to wrestle me. Everything was paralyzed from a chest after all had was my upper body and im still pretty strong. I would wrestle these guys. It was just amazing. Even after being paralyzed, even after being shot and wounded, there was that physicality, that desire to be physically involved in the sports that i loved as a young man. No, i never played wheelchair baseball, but i did pick up a wiffleball bat either used that my brother, i tried, i tried to do what it did when i was a kid. I tried to play with the ball again in the backyard, and i could still hit the ball with one hand with the wiffleball bat but there was something missing, something that was hurting inside. It was not the same and it would never be the same again. But at the same time i still, i know who tom is and i continued my love of sports. Tom is a great sports writer. Its an honor to have his question, but one of the things i thought was interesting when i started doing the research on this book, coming from some someone who ry didnt know about the origin of wheelchair sports was sort of why did they pick wheelchair basketball . Why was that the First Great Team sport that was played . You would think basketball Kareem Abduljabbar on the other hand, having said that, basketball the sport is smooth the Court Dismissed the its big enough to hold players and their wheelchairs picked when you think about it, baseball is really, with a grass field anyway, baseball is very difficult. It would take about three hours to get to first base even with a bond. Right bunt. Theres another question and were getting towards the end of our time, so, you mentioned in the past there was a lot of silence around the topic. What have served to shift the bottom of the conversation . Ron, what has shifted that there was so much a silence around the topic . Around the war . Lets see, and what particular topic . Around this topic. Around here paraplegics, disability. You talk about world war ii veterans come we know what specifically happened at Madison Square garden on that one particular night. Just before this game with the New York Knicks began, the public address system, somebody announced that theres going to be a special little preevent, and all of a sudden these guys in wheelchairs cannot onto the court. Nobody had ever seen this before. They have thousands of people in the arena, and i have been there, Madison Square garden. Great sports arena. They came out. People, they did know what to make of them. They did know whether to feel sorry for them. There was just silence. The game began and one of the guys in a wheelchair all out of the chair and there was this gas all throughout the garden gasp. What happened was very important at that moment. He turned around, grabbed the wheelchair and he muscled himself, pulled himself back in the chair, set down and restarted yelling at the referee, from what i read in your book, and started yelling and complaining all of a sudden everybody started cheering at Madison Square garden. If you think about who these men were, regular guy said been wounded in the work, came back, still have a lot of fight and a lot of spirit, and they were not done yet your so that was very important to me when i read that in your book. Just to add to that, when you think about it, before the war the president of the United States Franklin Franklin roosea polio patient and used a wheelchair. He refuse basically to ever allow himself to be photographed while he was sitting in his wheelchair. There was such a statement about disability back then. Obviously there still is stigma to disability to this day. I think whether veterans, being out there in Madison Square garden, by defeating by way ablebodied teams that would borrow wheelchair for the occasion, and by forming paralyzed veterans americas, a group that is, very powerful lobby group in d. C. , that helps reduce the stigma. That helped bring about change in our society. Its a long process but one of the things i found fascinating was 15 out here from van nuys, whenever they would make their road trip back they would always stop in washington, d. C. , and they would Lobby Congress and the white house about disability. The word is pioneers, they were, and they are the reason why i have a life that i have today, why have the acceptance, and other physically challenged or disabled people like myself have that acceptance and that understanding that we are equal, equal to everyone else. We can rise to the common unit, this sainthood for many years and i dont particularly believe it. It says roosevelt was elected president of the United States back then, but no person in a wheelchair today can be elected president of the United States. I dont agree with that. I dont believe that. I believe our potential as disabled people, as, the potential of physically challenged people. We are all physically challenged, come on. Its a liberty. Anybody has a physical challenge. Everybody just with disability. The most traumatic disability of all is when youre dead and when youre not here anymore. What more disabling than not being a life . Give me a a break. So everybody goes through disability or everybody deals with his disability. We are all dealing with it. Were not all admitting it to ourselves, but i think is at the childs people represent an inspiration. Thats why think the book is so important. It honors the greatest generation. It honors and element of the greatest generation and eloquent, and up beautifully put together way. I mean, i recommend that you read this book. David, i said to you let me say that again. You wrote beautifully, it is written beautifully. As tom points out, Tammy Duckworth was a senator from illinois, almost became the Vice President nominee for joe biden, certainly was considered for that. And she is in a wheelchair, of course. I i predict right now someday in future of this great country of ours, that a man or a woman in a wheelchair will rise to the office of the presidency of the United States. I am saying that right now, yeah. We will hold you to that. I want to say at this point might, if theres any other questions please let me know. Tom has another one. Ron, do you watch a lot of basketball . If so, who are your favorite players . Lebron james, the lakers of course. I have to tell you i know tom. Tom and i met in the village here at Redondo Beach several times and hes just a wonderful writer. But anyway, time, as a told you many times, my great game is, like great sport is baseball and the dodgers. I love the dodgers and a gruff a Yankee Yankee fan and this is a big deal, a kit from new york, this is almost sacrilegious, a kit from new york coming out to california and becoming a dodger fan, actually becoming, in my neighborhood where i grew up, you either hated the yankees and love the dodgers are you loved the dodgers, you know, you loved the yankees and hated the dodgers. Between the two blocks, there was a dodger fans in the yankee fans and i was a yankee fan, Mickey Mantle, roger marist, i know the whole team, i know every position. And if youre a fan, if you really love your sport you will know everyone of them. You know everything about them. You will lift that sport. Basketball im very aware of football come very aware i i love to watch basketball, very proud, ever take your very of the lakers this year. They are just zooming along and hope they go all the way. Its baseball, its baseball. Even in this limited season iv, i continue to be an avid fan. I must say, tom, baseball is my greatest love of all. Well, on that note, we were close, send it back, maybe we can get mookie betz to join us next time when we have conversation. Mookie is incredible, is in the . You said the dodgers and hopped back on here because i love, love, love the dodgers. So glad youre able to say that. Im so glad you became a dodgers fan. And mookie, mookie betz, incredible. What a season. Watched lots of baseball. We were going all the way. I agree. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you to both of you. We really appreciate it. It was a great, great conversation and dont forget you can buy davids book, wheels of courage, click on that button that at the bottom. It will take you to vromans bookstore website and also point to scroll up in the chat on the side, like tom did mention the 40th Anniversary Edition of born on the fourth of july and i link that in there as well just so you know because we enjoy what ron had to say tonight. You can get the full book there. We ask you in general, we know folks are made the effort to support independent bookstores by tuning in tonight. We continue to ask for help during this tough time by buying your book some us. We hope you can do all your christmas shopping, we have plenty of stuff to purchase that. Its kind of a onestop shop. I know its september and were talking about christmas, it feels weird, but wheels of courage is a great way to start that gift list and is quite a few people out there who know others that they might be able to get that for. Again, thank you so much. Vromans is truly appreciative of your time and everything you did tonight. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks again everybody for tuning in and make sure to subscribe to our media newsletter and we hope to see you again soon. Have a wonderful night, everybody. Here are some the current bestselling nonfiction books according to the los angeles times. Some of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can watch them online at booktv. Org. On a weekly Author Interview program afterwards former fbi Deputy Assistant director of our intelligence peter strzok described his work on the mueller investigation. Heres a portion. I think that my historical record and those who have looked at it speaks for themselves, part of what event is this issue of cases i i worked, the outcos of those, why and what we did in the recent we did it. Its very plainly there, able to be corroborated by people can see the faqs and go back and verify them. The places they should look to verify them, the reason they should we be is always independent looks that been done, two Inspector General investigations, over three years with 15 or more attorneys and and was looking at every last thing i did come every text, every email, every call, you know, communication. All of which have concluded that not only me but the entire team at the wasnt evidence of any action taken on an improper motive. When out on top of that multiply as attorneys at the department of justice has assigned to take a look at our actions after the fact, when you look at all the congressional investigations that are tried and tried to spend the things we didnt come not to mention all the media, you and of the folks looking what we did, all of these things, all of these deep investigations have come up with no indication, no evidence that things were done based on the improper considerations. Contrast that with the president behavior. He cant make it through a press conference for a town hall without Fact Checking at each event point out the numerous frankly lies come things he says that are not true. This is a oneoff occurrence. It occurs time and time and time to get a folks in me and others have catalogued literally thousands of untruths he has uttered. When i look at the targeting of us, not only me but others in the fbi who been lumped into this crazy conspiracy, it is apparent to me it is being done by partisans, specifically to undermine any sort of valid criticism or observations or investigations of trump a cousin he scared of what isnt there. He doesnt want the truth known anybody, again look at not just the fbi but the people like ambassador yovanovitch or colonel vindman, it was who dares speak the truth is attacked because they dont want the truth out. Watched the rest of this Program Visit our website tv. Org. Click on the after words tab or sort for peter strzok using the box at the top of the page. History on biography is sponsored by wells fargo. Im sarah broom and time in harlem. I wrote the